[Basic]: Be Nice Mafia

[BFG]

Good morning :)

 

I got caught up rereading yesterday. Unfortunately I don't have time to write my thoughts before work. I more or less finished Day 1, there are a couple of pages I skimmed through which I want to check.

 

A couple of things, Tress, Clov why were you voting No Lynch. I understand your not wanting it to go random argument, but my experience in these sort of games is that people will consolidate at the end of day.

 

Cass, you don't seem to like me asking vig/cop/doc... it's a way of finding out what people think... vig strongest suspect, cop person most unsure of/second strongest suspect (bit more complicated as there are lots of reasons to cop someone), doc strongest town suspect... I don't feel like at the time I had much info to go on for those 2.

[Songstress]

 

 

 

 

 

making suggestions that he later claimed not to believe himself, and refusing to explain why he thought people were scum - even to the point of stating that they weren't actually his scum reads.

 

like what suggestions?

 

and what people did i claim were scum? -because i rebuked the label when you applied it, and never went back. You were the one who pressed for names, by the way, and I gave 'suspects' if you will. I wasn't going to accept your arbitrary label that implies that i somehow had a case to offer.

 

 

If you insist on me casing you I will, but that's not the purpose of that post.  Patience, young padawan.  Or whatever.

 

stop soft nudging. you've spent 4 or 5 pages now building it up after all, so just get on with it. if you mention everything i think you should i'll put you down as tentatively town.

 

glgl.

 

 

Patience.

 

The point is coming.

 

i hope. you're being very disingenuous.

 

 

I know. It's horrible, isn't it?

[Songstress]

 

 

I'm fighting off a cold and drained after 6+ hours of NFL Playoffs and chores. So I'm too lazy to do my typical Yates quote then respond thing...

Feel better!!

 

@Tress - Two questions for you, my lovely: 1. Would you mind explaining to me your read on BFG? I think you have more experience with her than I do and I'd like to know what you are seeing. And 2. Would you mind explaining your Thane read a little more as well? I'm a little confused as I read through your progression on him because sometimes it looks to me like you think he's scum but then you also say he is likely being "set up."

A'ight, I'll do the best I can for now.

 

1) Regarding BFG, I think she's responded well to the pressure you and Clov have put on her, and answered the questions that were raised sufficiently.  I didn't necessarily like parts of her argument against no lynch, but otherwise her end of day engagement was good and it felt like she was trying to resolve question marks.  I really want to hear more from her now that D2 has started, but I am not willing to lynch her today barring a really convincing case or a cop guilty.

 

2) Regarding Thane, he's always a big question mark for me.  I expect he'll come back in and explain his low participation, but that's really a null.  The main reason I think he's a somewhat poor suspect is that I don't believe he'd be clumsy enough to pointedly comment on jmm's PR hint, then nightkill him.  Not to say it's impossible, but it seems like a really amateur move, and as hard a time as I have discerning his alignment most games, I have a lot of respect for his instincts.    He's still in my questionable list, and we definitely need more from him today - hopefully all is well with him and his family, and we'll hear from him within a few hours

 

 

Is BFG your top town read now then?  I seem to recall you feeling pretty good about Cass earlier, so I'm trying to straighten your order out in my head.

 

No, Cass is still my top town read. I was responding to Yates' request to clarify my reads on BFG and Thane, which I assume was prompted by the fact that I disputed Sili's suggestion of BFG and Thane as the mafia team.   

 

Which he'll probably deny was actually him suggesting they were mafia, with how our conversations have been going tonight.  Regardless, my full reads list will be clarified before much longer.

 

I'm doing a bit more prodding and observing.  It's hella fun.

[Clovdyx]

 

clov: i agree with this post of yours. That's the reason i let jmm breathe. Tress is right too. I wouldn't be THAT stupid to openly say i thought someone had a PR and then NK them. The only effect i'd hope to achieve is that the possible PR would be protected, in case another player would have missed it. 

 

Sili: I'm having a hard time making sense of you right now.... really... 

 

I'm glad you agree, but I don't buy the "I wouldn't do this...." argument.  It's nothing personal (I don't think you're stupid), but after the moves I've seen people make as scum, I don't accept there's anything people wouldn't do.

 

I'm also hesitant to believe that you were pushing his hint out there so that others would see it if they originally missed it.  Given that you just said you thought other players would notice it if you did as well.

 

ignore Thane, really?

 

Yates: i thought Sili a possible wolf candidate early D1. His tone and general posting improved, that's why he went down my list of suspects. Right now, he's absolutely everywhere. He's not making sense at all to me. Usually, i can get where he comes from, but here.... nope. I think he's a good one for today

 

Sili... it's the way i read you. You started off quite... well, wolfy... D1. Later, you made more sense, got your thoughts together and posts were well done imo. You seem rather jittery and all over the place right now.

 

I asked earlier, not sure if you missed it, but I'd still like some examples of what swayed you to read him as scum and what made you feel better about him when you get a chance please. :)

[Sili Quirrels]

 

 

clov, i'm missing something from you.

 

what is your read on me?

 

You're in my mafia pool right now.  Throwing names out there earlier in response to...Tress?...when she asked who would be the one mafia and then trying to go back and say they weren't your reads doesn't make any sense to me.  You seem to be all over the place and the number of things I can't follow your thought process is considerably lower than the number of things I can.

 

 

I'm fighting off a cold and drained after 6+ hours of NFL Playoffs and chores. So I'm too lazy to do my typical Yates quote then respond thing...

Feel better!!

 

@Tress - Two questions for you, my lovely: 1. Would you mind explaining to me your read on BFG? I think you have more experience with her than I do and I'd like to know what you are seeing. And 2. Would you mind explaining your Thane read a little more as well? I'm a little confused as I read through your progression on him because sometimes it looks to me like you think he's scum but then you also say he is likely being "set up."

A'ight, I'll do the best I can for now.

 

1) Regarding BFG, I think she's responded well to the pressure you and Clov have put on her, and answered the questions that were raised sufficiently.  I didn't necessarily like parts of her argument against no lynch, but otherwise her end of day engagement was good and it felt like she was trying to resolve question marks.  I really want to hear more from her now that D2 has started, but I am not willing to lynch her today barring a really convincing case or a cop guilty.

 

2) Regarding Thane, he's always a big question mark for me.  I expect he'll come back in and explain his low participation, but that's really a null.  The main reason I think he's a somewhat poor suspect is that I don't believe he'd be clumsy enough to pointedly comment on jmm's PR hint, then nightkill him.  Not to say it's impossible, but it seems like a really amateur move, and as hard a time as I have discerning his alignment most games, I have a lot of respect for his instincts.    He's still in my questionable list, and we definitely need more from him today - hopefully all is well with him and his family, and we'll hear from him within a few hours

 

 

Is BFG your top town read now then?  I seem to recall you feeling pretty good about Cass earlier, so I'm trying to straighten your order out in my head.

 

 

@Sili - Serious question; why did you say this: "don't know why the wolves thought jmm would be a power role?" You are a clever pony and I'd like some help understanding your motivation here.

 

 

Easy villa points. Plus I had to distance myself from the kill due to a couple things I said and the way things went down at eod.

 

 

I don't understand how you think you saying that would earn you "easy villa points".  But this post just sounds awful.   People trying to distance themselves from kills is usually a bad sign...

 

 

 

 

 

clov, i'm missing something from you.

 

what is your read on me?

 

You're in my mafia pool right now.  Throwing names out there earlier in response to...Tress?...when she asked who would be the one mafia and then trying to go back and say they weren't your reads doesn't make any sense to me.  You seem to be all over the place and the number of things I can't follow your thought process is considerably lower than the number of things I can.

 

 

I'm fighting off a cold and drained after 6+ hours of NFL Playoffs and chores. So I'm too lazy to do my typical Yates quote then respond thing...

Feel better!!

 

@Tress - Two questions for you, my lovely: 1. Would you mind explaining to me your read on BFG? I think you have more experience with her than I do and I'd like to know what you are seeing. And 2. Would you mind explaining your Thane read a little more as well? I'm a little confused as I read through your progression on him because sometimes it looks to me like you think he's scum but then you also say he is likely being "set up."

A'ight, I'll do the best I can for now.

 

1) Regarding BFG, I think she's responded well to the pressure you and Clov have put on her, and answered the questions that were raised sufficiently.  I didn't necessarily like parts of her argument against no lynch, but otherwise her end of day engagement was good and it felt like she was trying to resolve question marks.  I really want to hear more from her now that D2 has started, but I am not willing to lynch her today barring a really convincing case or a cop guilty.

 

2) Regarding Thane, he's always a big question mark for me.  I expect he'll come back in and explain his low participation, but that's really a null.  The main reason I think he's a somewhat poor suspect is that I don't believe he'd be clumsy enough to pointedly comment on jmm's PR hint, then nightkill him.  Not to say it's impossible, but it seems like a really amateur move, and as hard a time as I have discerning his alignment most games, I have a lot of respect for his instincts.    He's still in my questionable list, and we definitely need more from him today - hopefully all is well with him and his family, and we'll hear from him within a few hours

 

 

Is BFG your top town read now then?  I seem to recall you feeling pretty good about Cass earlier, so I'm trying to straighten your order out in my head.

 

 

@Sili - Serious question; why did you say this: "don't know why the wolves thought jmm would be a power role?" You are a clever pony and I'd like some help understanding your motivation here.

 

 

Easy villa points. Plus I had to distance myself from the kill due to a couple things I said and the way things went down at eod.

 

 

I don't understand how you think you saying that would earn you "easy villa points".  But this post just sounds awful.   People trying to distance themselves from kills is usually a bad sign...

 

1. THEY WERE Not ReADS. THEY WERE NEVER READS. THEY NEVER HAD A CASE BACKING THEM. I NEVER PRETENDED thEY HAD WELL THOUGHT out arguMENTS. THE ONLY ONE PRETENDING HERE IS you!!!! -plural-

 

2.  i got no reads for the thread. my reads are in flux. and it would be poor strategy to put reads out there and be expected to defend them.

 

3. is a villager not supposed to think about how a night kill affects how they're perceived when the entire game is about town-telling? yeah, scum do it too, but also self-conscious villagers who have something to lose.

[Songstress]

Good morning :)

 

I got caught up rereading yesterday. Unfortunately I don't have time to write my thoughts before work. I more or less finished Day 1, there are a couple of pages I skimmed through which I want to check.

 

A couple of things, Tress, Clov why were you voting No Lynch. I understand your not wanting it to go random argument, but my experience in these sort of games is that people will consolidate at the end of day.

 

Cass, you don't seem to like me asking vig/cop/doc... it's a way of finding out what people think... vig strongest suspect, cop person most unsure of/second strongest suspect (bit more complicated as there are lots of reasons to cop someone), doc strongest town suspect... I don't feel like at the time I had much info to go on for those 2.

 

I actually never voted.

 

But I was planning to vote No Lynch, because I didn't believe there was enough support for a Sili lynch, as I outlined in one of my posts at EOD, and he was the one who actually had the best chance of a majority wagon at the time.

[Sili Quirrels]

i hate it that tress sounds so genuine when she's tunneling a villager for no good reason, whilst soft nudging and refusing to offer anything significant to refute to.

[Clovdyx]

 

 

 

 

@ Clov - Just that it was odd that he would 'call' me Town 'like everyone else' but do it in a way that casts doubt/insinuates that I might be different from the others he listed...

 

Kinda feels like the same as my first game where the Scum mostly said 'I have her as Town,' and then carefully insinuated it was possible I could be Scum because it was plausible that I could be being helped. The doubt that move cast over the rest of Town haunted/followed me for the whole freaking game.

 

I feel like it was a search for something similar to push against me in this game: 'I have her as Town, BUT she could be pulling the wool over your eyes/could be Scum now because even though she's fairly new, she's had experience being Scum before...'

 

Since I know I'm Town again (and probably also because I'm once bitten, twice shy) it pings/makes me wary.

 

Does that make any sense? (I'm typing this on phone whilst trying not to ignore the toddler - let me know if doesn't)

 

Also, you read the last game, right? Do you think something different??

 

@ Sili - Do you have links to a recent Town game at all?

 

Going out to lunch/running errands now, back tonight when the kid's in bed - GL!

 

I was more concerned with him using a conditional he already knew the answer to.  That is, he's somewhat familiar with the games you've played, so he new the answer to  "Have you played a bunch of scum games?" would be no.  That would allow him to lock you in as town, based on what he said earlier.

 

Basically a cheap way to justify a TMI "read".

 

 

I dont think i would read me as a wolf if i knew me so i dont see what u see tress.

 

Current reads are

 

Yates town

Clov town

Cass town

Tress town

Bfg town

 

Jmm scum.

 

Expect me to itterate heavily in the background. Sometimes ppl find it fishy that i nudge and swap targets but i like to give reads breathing room. It also creates content. If something is important ill usually elaborate to persuade people

 

What makes you think BFG is town?  Jmm scum?  Neither of those seem like they should be above null to me.

 

 

Thane is also town in the derp clear sort of way.

 

He says the wolf instead of a wolf. Its a tentative meta read premised on him being selective about his word choice if he ever rands mafia for me.

 

....what?

 

 

Clov, I agree with the TMI thing here. Potentially scummy Sili-you interactions aside, this post comes across as fairly towny. Only gripe I have is that you didn't actually answer whether or not my own train of thought also made sense to you and if you actually read the game I was talking about/the interactions that made me 'paranoid'.

 

 

Not sure if you expected me to, but on re-read I realised I never really got back to you about this. 

 

 

 

Quote chopping ITT.

 

Sili

In a nutshell, at this point, I'm totally reading you as scum (again), but I'm interested in some elaboration from you before I vote.

 

- What are your thoughts/reactions to the above?

- Why should we be reading you as Town?

- What's the difference in your mind between a Town 'read' and a Town 'lean'?

- What was your reason for suggesting Clov was a likely Wolf? Do you have a reason for not elaborating at the time?

- You said chopping and changing is normal for you, and that you like to 'give your reads breathing room', but you 'pushed' Clov at least twice before suddenly dropping him and saying he actually seemed fine. Why?

- Why is jmm's question about the number of wolves scummy?

- How can you say you have Clov as Town because your interactions were 'likely v/v violence', but then claim you're 'spewed' clear if he is Scum? I can't follow that logic/don't see anything that points to either of these btw.

 

 

The whole post seems like a genuine attempt at trying to get a read on Sili, so I think that looks really good for Cass.  The questions in red especially sound like she's trying to understand how he's playing.  Only way she's mafia here is if she's going for a very long set up on him being inconsistent (or completely wasting time, I guess).  I don't think that's the case.  I'm pretty comfortable calling Cass town for where we're at.

 

 

My plan is to pocket you.  See how you respond.  Serious question; when is the last time I read you wrong?  I want to see that comfortable, free thinking, shoot from the hip Thane Town so I'm setting you up for it.  And if a "Be Nice" game isn't the proper format to get you to that place, I don't know what is.

 

Yates, can you elaborate on what you mean by pocket him here?  The end of the post seems to be a reasonably pro-town thing to do, but I'm getting hung up on the first sentence.  You don't normally see that expression used as a positive thing, or as a way of helping somebody establish themselves, as you seem to be doing with Thane.

 

 

I'll need to account for his lack of games but my thinking was his posts were too 'excited', and didn't say much. He only asks one question, how many mafia there are in an 8 person team with his second post. -felt like he might have done it just for town cred the way it was phrased.

 

 

Jmm, to that point.

 

 

 

 

 

Greetings and salutations, fellow ponies. 

 

-----------------

 

This is the extent of my MLP knowledge: 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zHZj8Xp-Ik

 

 

Experienced mafia-ers: 

 

With 8 are we looking at 2 or 1 mafia probably? 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't see how you can possibly say he's been particularly excited.  More importantly, why is that alignment indicative?  I think most people associate having fun and being easy going as towntelling, because it reduces the concern they're hiding something.  I don't know there's much truth to it, but it seems to make more sense than somebody being scummy for it.

 

The second point is reasonable enough, I suppose.

 

Massive quote chopping in the one below.

 

 

 

 

- Picks up the 'pressure' on Sili. Uses Sili's 'read' of me as the base:

Valid but ... *shoves on tinfoil hat*... parts 'fit' my current theory that Sili and Clov are W-W, and my concern that I'm being set up by Scum again.

 

- Says he's confused as to how Sili can take a hard stance on my alignment based on my first post.

Agree with this, but then

 

- Asks why I'm 'incapable' of making that post as scum?

My opening being null is a valid point in theory, but in practice I don't like that he uses the word 'incapable' here, in a tone that suggests he's saying I'm actually 'capable' of making that post as scum. Same potential as before. Scum casting doubt on my alignment based on 'questions' of my ability. Sili 'brushes this off' by saying 'she's not incapable?'. Tinfoily as all bollocks? Maybe. Either way, I don't like it. 

 

 

- Pushes harder at Sili for saying 'All my reads are tentative of course' so early on, and questions the caveat Sili put on his read of me compared to others.

This actually came across as Town to me (and was the part I was referring to when I mentioned the partial mind-meld with Clov).

 

- Talks about the 'relevance' of their 'different' opinions and the fact that he's considering Sili might be scum.

Ok, but slightly off. Feels kind of fake. He say's he'd rather 'try to judge' Sili on his reads than on 'meaningless posts' from the first page, but did judge him there. And then agrees that 'miscommunication' doesn't make someone scum and (?over) explains the possibility that Sili's PM may have made him scum and that it's his job to figure that out. Appeals for Town cred by essentially explaining stuff that is rather obvious, and then associating himself with 'everyone's' likely reasoning (bold in spoiler).

 

 

 

 

 

Questions me directly

- Says he's not sure how me being set up as scum by scum would work.

- Asks me what I'm thinking/to explain.

Maybe I wasn't overly clear in my initial statements to Sili, but I found Clov asking for explanations on this odd because i)at the end of the last game, I thought it was pretty obvious that this had been one of scum's main ploys when it came to me, and ii) I distinctly remember Clov commenting on the DT/after the game. I kind of made these points in my response (bold in the spoiler). He hasn't posted since asking me the initial question, so I'm still waiting to see what comes up in his response to my explanation.

 

Other

Pretty much null

 

- Jokes in response to Yate's first post

Seemed purposefully flippant, but not necessarily scummy.

 

- Answers jmm's question about the number of scum likely to be in this game

Says two. Initially I took this as Town/null, and nobody else experienced has contradicted the answer so it's probably correct, but, just to dot i's and cross t's can the mod/other experienced players please confirm this is right, please?

 

 

@ Clov

 

It's not much to go on yet, but already I'm reading your posts with a scummish lean, especially in relation to Sili/points raised by Sili. At this point you seem to be the second most likely wolf to me. I know I haven't played a proper game with you and could just be tinfoiling/reading you all wrong so I'm interested to know your thoughts/figure this out further.

 

- What are your responses/reactions to the above?

- What is your current read on Sili, and why? 

 

 

 

Red - Well, yeah, that would be the implication there.  I think your opening post was pretty null, so the way Sili presented his thoughts on it seemed strange - I didn't feel there was anything that was alignment indicative so him implying you would have had to get massive Mafia (alignment, not the game) experience to make it as Mafia was off.  Bold red behind it though is a bad conclusion, though.  I'm not "casting doubt" on your alignment, and my stance had nothing to do with your ability.  I was casting doubt on what appeared to be a strong read off nothing.

 

As for the rest of it, honestly, most of it seems to be paranoia/tinfoiling.  You and I seem to have been seeing the thread the same way early on.  From your POV, I can understand (and appreciate) some concern that maybe I'm trying to side with you or something, but I think it's a little early to worry about that.

 

Section highlighted in blue is something that stood out to me as more than just tinfoiling.  If you feel it felt fake, I can't really do/say anything to refute that.  You're wrong about me judging him based off the first page fluff, though.  My read from him in post #29 is based on him

 

1) moving on from a presumable joke vote of BFG

2) his "vibes"

 

Effort isn't much to go on, but for the first few hours of the phase, I can appreciate somebody trying to get down to business.  Like I said, it wasn't very strong, but it was a better option that making a guess based on initial posts and mod-directed spam.

 

Now I'm feeling worse about him.  His justification for reading you as town as early as he did seems based off nothing, and his explanation on reading jmm just doesn't make sense to me.  It doesn't seem like he's reading the same thread I am.

 

 

The things that bother me here/read to me as having the potential to be off are in bold red.

 

The first part is highlighted because it honestly still reads to me like it could have been intended either way, and if you did mean to cast that subtle doubt... *insert previous argument about not liking being set up this way previously by scum here*

 

The second part stung only because of the barb in the tail. Given that it was early after my interaction in the last game that this concerning tactic started, I don't think any time would be 'too early' to 'worry' about that. I highlighted it the instant it felt similar to me to avoid the possibility of having to contradict/deal with it the entire game again - and it may be because it was nothing or something this time, but it hasn't happened since so I don't regret voicing my concerns.

 

The third part bothered me more before your answer at EoD about not being overly certain about the read than it does now

(but if Sili flips scum it will probably bother me somewhat again lol)

 

 

 

From the top - 

 

It made sense, but it didn't seem likely.  Setting you up with a town read and then reversing it right after would have looked worse on him than you IMO.  And no, I wasn't really expecting you to follow up with it, but I appreciate you doing so.

 

 

From the bottom - 

 

First part - if that's how it reads to you, that's how it reads to you.  I wrote what I wrote and explained why I wrote it that way.  If you see it differently, there's nothing I can really do about it at this point, besides point out that I obviously haven't tried to use it against you...so if I was going to, it didn't pan out that way?

 

Second - I'm not sure what tactic you're referring to.  I would guess trying to set you up, but that doesn't really mesh with what I was conveying in that section - which was that I felt it was too early to start being concerned with likely town reads actually being mafia.  Of course I'm all for keeping reads fluid with the game thread, but I think you have to trust your reads to be reliable, until that person gives you something to change them for.  As it applied here, you and I seemed to agree on a lot early and your posts seemed to suggest that I was a slight townlean.  To immediately turn to the aspect of being wrong just seemed a bit much.

 

Third - I'm not sure what you're saying here, or why him flipping scum would bother you.  Can you elaborate on what bothered you about it?

[BFG]

Tress

 

You're right you didn't vote No Lynch, but fairly early on Saturday (my time zone so several hours before deadline) you said that you didn't like the idea of no lynch, yet never voted despite having mafia suspects...

[Clovdyx]

1. THEY WERE Not ReADS. THEY WERE NEVER READS. THEY NEVER HAD A CASE BACKING THEM. I NEVER PRETENDED thEY HAD WELL THOUGHT out arguMENTS. THE ONLY ONE PRETENDING HERE IS you!!!! -plural-

 

2.  i got no reads for the thread. my reads are in flux. and it would be poor strategy to put reads out there and be expected to defend them.

 

3. is a villager not supposed to think about how a night kill affects how they're perceived when the entire game is about town-telling? yeah, scum do it too, but also self-conscious villagers who have something to lose.

 

 

1.  I can appreciate your frustration, but I'm fairly certain that 99% mafia players will tell you that throwing a name out to satisfy a question like "Who do you think scum would be there?" is a read, regardless of whether you have a strong case to back it.  If Player X makes 1 post and you say "Wow, that sounds wolfy" and that person moves to the top of your list (regardless of how minor, or tentative, that placement is), I literally don't know anybody - besides you, I suppose - that would try to argue it's NOT a read.

 

2.  I don't think it would be a poor strategy.  I think that would be a great strategy.  Showing where you're at and why - especially consistently throughout the game - is how you can convince people you're trying to solve the game.  Not doing it at least gives the appearance (or outright reveals) that you're not trying to do so.

 

3.  Speaking only for myself, I legitimately don't care how a NK affects my perception.  YMMV here though.

[Songstress]

Tress

 

You're right you didn't vote No Lynch, but fairly early on Saturday (my time zone so several hours before deadline) you said that you didn't like the idea of no lynch, yet never voted despite having mafia suspects...

 

I explained my thought process on the no lynch after that, do you need me to go back and pull the quote?

[Sili Quirrels]

well as long as no one expects the reads to be grounded in anything that's fine.

 

yates - town

bfg - town

clov - town

tress - scum

thane - scum

 

going back and forth between clov, tress, thane, and bfg.

 

not as much yates.

[Clovdyx]

Good morning :)

 

I got caught up rereading yesterday. Unfortunately I don't have time to write my thoughts before work. I more or less finished Day 1, there are a couple of pages I skimmed through which I want to check.

 

A couple of things, Tress, Clov why were you voting No Lynch. I understand your not wanting it to go random argument, but my experience in these sort of games is that people will consolidate at the end of day.

 

Cass, you don't seem to like me asking vig/cop/doc... it's a way of finding out what people think... vig strongest suspect, cop person most unsure of/second strongest suspect (bit more complicated as there are lots of reasons to cop someone), doc strongest town suspect... I don't feel like at the time I had much info to go on for those 2.

 

A couple reasons.  As I alluded to earlier, presumable numbers game.  If no extra kills show up, the game should end D4 at the earliest, rather than N3.  Also because I didn't feel confident in our ability to consolidate at the time I advocated for a no lynch.  Only six of us ended up voting, and going five-for-six wasn't too likely at that point.  Not counting on self-votes suggests we would have needed the other five to all agree.

 

You might be right about people consolidating at the end of the day but the upside of getting scum didn't outweigh the downside of a townie death, which was far more likely IMO.

[Cass]

Sorry, got interrupted by dinner.

 

 

 

haha ~ 'i'm scum again' ~ if only that were true.

 

there's an old pog guideline which says when a person frequently regresses to complacency when otherwise they are skeptical and wary they are a wolf.  it's hard to pretend to be someone you aren't all the time, so where it concerns high content or a broad focus, most players tend to be intermittent about pretending to scum hunt.

fyi, i started writing this before cass. it might seem pointless but it's relevant to reading clov, tress, and thane.

 

Lol I so very nearly went #FULLTINFOIL on you again for you 'insinuating' I might be scum here again there, especially that way. But ok. *Deep breath*  

For once I actually see the logic behind what you are suggesting - in theory. Can you explain/give quotes/examples of how you think 'regressing to complacency' and 'otherwise skeptical and wary' actually relates to the players you mentioned, in this game?

 

 

 

 

You didn't quote the original questions/things you the conversation was supposed to be pertaining to, again   . Are you doing this on purpose?? Added to here in spoilers for context/checks on continuity.

 

 

 

 

 

The specifics I worked on on Sili, also just in case.
 

 

NB I've tried to make this whole exchange as neat and as easy to follow as possible. Questions/Answers have been numbered and placed in sequential quotes, my old stuff is now all black, new stuff is up in blue, directly under the part it relates to. Nothing content-wise has been changed.

 

 

1 Why should we be reading you as Town?
2 What's the difference in your mind between a Town 'read' and a Town 'lean'?
3 What was your reason for suggesting Clov was a likely Wolf? Do you have a reason for not elaborating at the time?
4 You said chopping and changing is normal for you, and that you like to 'give your reads breathing room', but you 'pushed' Clov at least twice before suddenly dropping him and saying he actually seemed fine. Why?
5 Why is jmm's question about the number of wolves scummy?
6 How can you say you have Clov as Town because your interactions were 'likely v/v violence', but then claim you're 'spewed' clear if he is Scum? I can't follow that logic/don't see anything that points to either of these btw.

 

 

 

1 My engagement in the thread is good. I play this game to problem solve and my wolf game usually lags behind in this regard.

2 A read is a stated opinion while a lean is a stance. The former is less permanent, sometimes.

3 I was anxious to find scum so the first person to post something snarky caught my eye. I felt his soft nudge was unwarranted and premature given it was page 1. I didn't elaborate since sometimes wolves ask why a person is reading them this or that, but clov is experienced and knew I was in an awkward position and didn't have a strong case so it meant very little. I would approach it differently given another opportunity.

4 'at least twice'. How is it at least, and since when did I push him twice? I reminded him when it was apparent he wouldn't respond readily. To build a case twice on the same person I would have needed to adjust my reads three times. e.g. null -> scum -> town/null -> scum.

 

My process was null -> scum -> town. I changed my mind when his responses demonstrated a good level of engagement and insight; I read his nitpicking as genuine for clov (but I don't know him very well), and the conversation was remniscent of ones I've had with past villagers like csarmi or cory, and quite possibly clov in our one game together.

 

5The question was too detailed for me; for jmm it felt well thought out and premature. e.g. he says 'one or two scum probably'. He never responded to Clov's remark and he hasn't offered any useful input to gauge where he stands.

 

His latest post:

 

Truth.  I am very much taking that mindset, especially with Sili, since I tunneled him for a while last game   

like, he knows i'm town, otherwise the matter of tunneling me when I'm scum wouldn't be significant to him. Why not tunnel me again, right?

 

6 I rarely if ever engage/interact with my wolfpack. I don't have the knack for it. Clov also nudged me repeatadly and took me to task quite readily.

 

 

Quote 
(Originally Cass, - Pulled from top of Silli's next Quote - Time Stamp Lost)

1. Like I said in the generalised post, I'm glad you answered (and reading since that point, glad you have continued to interact) but I still feel like it took a lot to get you to 'explain' and that seems wilfy. I'll happily agree that you've been active in the thread since the beginning, but that alone doesn't automatically make you Town, and it's not quite the same as having a 'good' engagement - at least not to me...

 

2. Ok, cheers for explaining.

 

3. You felt his 'soft nudge was unwarranted given that it was page 1' and yet you voted BFG on Page 1 because of an emoticon. I mentioned before that I would have been ok to take that vote as a joke vote except you gave a 'proper' explanation when you unvoted and that seemed strange. The rest of your answer here feels like WIFOM. Except for the part where you say you'd approach it differently, what are you getting at there?

 

4. My explanation of 'twice' is that IMO you said you thought he was a wolf/pushed him for potentially being so here and here. I said you pushed him twice, not that you pushed him for two different things. The 'at least' is a disclaimer in case I missed something. WIFOM again for the 'I would have needed to adjust my reads three times... null-> scum -> town/null -> scum' thing. I never said anything like that and your null->scum->town thing could equally have been you backing off as a wolf because you didn't think your argument was going well/that you were going to get anywhere. 

 

5. I was wondering the same question (how many wolves), and asking whether it was one or two makes perfect sense to me, as it's highly unlikely to be anything else. I don't see this as wolfish, and I don't think that the 'probably' sounds overly out of place. I don't personally like jmm's tone or lack of as it makes him hard for me to read (and I find that suspicious in itself), but I don't think he's actually done anything suspicious yet. Because I don't see it as overly suspicious, I do find you jumping on this question somewhat opportunistic and therefore potentially wolfy. The point about the tunneling you when you're scum shouldn't be significant to him is a good one though - I'm waiting with interest to see his response.

 

6. I still don't understand your initial logic here (your interactions were 'likely v/v violence', but you're 'spewed' clear if he is Scum), and I can't confirm that you rarely engage/interact with your wolfpack / don't have a knack for it. I feel like you gave me fluff in answer for this question and then pointed your finger at Clov. The logic gap is/was a weak-to-null point for me, but not actually answering the question pings a little stronger.

 

 

 

1. It didn't take a lot ya know? I answered after you pointed them out to me, and all at once, not in bits and drabs. Yes, answering your questions was not my first priority, but I didn't dedicate space to not answering them either. There's nothing fishy here. 

 

I felt like it took a lot when I said that, probably because I felt like I had to highlight how scummy it seemed for you to avoid collaboration and plead for you to answer/explain in the post where I asked you not to give up if you were Town. You have to admit there was an attitude change between your 'I'm out' (etc) posts and the one where you actually started to answer the questions, and I felt like that wouldn't have occurred if I hadn't voiced concerns that your behaviour was likely to be scum. Reading on mobiles sucks, yes, but I can't tell for sure that you actually missed those questions at the bottom of the WoT the first time round. You did answer them, and now you're answering the questions that your original 'answers' raised, so that actually does look good. I find it a little fishy that you left out the original questions in the block of quotes you included in this answer, but for I'm trying to clear my head instead of tinfoil here so... Light help me if I'm wrong. 

 

2. Yep.

 

3. Bfg wasn't on my mind when I unvoted. Just clov. I never offered an explanation for my first vote. 

I think this one is definitely my bad. I interpreted the 'I may have been too abrupt' thing as relating to the vote on BFG, not Clov. On the re-read, you're right and you don't even mention BFG. 

FWIW in case you think it's suss, I think the tinfoil here occurred because I thought your vote on BFG for the emoticon was 'too abrupt', and so the words of this post associated with that event in my mind...    I obviously feel a lot better about this whole 'why wasn't it a joke-vote?' thing now.  

 

wifom? you think there needs to be a good reason page 1 for any sort of read?

No, my reference to 'WIFOM' was in relation to the answer you gave me when I asked why you didn't elaborate. I highlighted in red the part I found confusing/sketchy.  "I didn't elaborate since sometimes wolves ask why a person is reading them this or that, but clov is experienced and knew I was in an awkward position and didn't have a strong case so it meant very little." The first part makes sense enough by itself, but not in the context of the second part, which seems contradictory. It's like the first part you're saying 'I didn't elaborate because it's a strategy I use to catch wilves' and the second part you're saying 'but I didn't elaborate because Clov is experienced and would have caught me in an awkward position if I'd tried to make stuff up'. I'm  still don't entirely understand. Why would it be an 'awkward' position? Why would you want a 'strong case' if you were deliberately 'not elaborating'?

 

i would add a pound of logic since it was kind of flaccid in retrospect. reaction tests require traction.

Where would this 'pound of logic' come from if you 'didn't have a strong case' (your own words)? Why 'add' it instead of 'finding' it, if it was something you didn't already have?

 

4. =/ when you say i pushed him twice it implies a certain amount of sustained conviction or paranoia on my part.
The 'sustained' I agree with and was what I was implying was strange at that point of the game. 

'Conviction' and 'paranoia' would only be appropriate in the context that I thought what you were 'sustaining' was Townish. I didn't/don't, and I thought I'd made that pretty clear...

 

your null->scum->town thing could equally have been you backing off as a wolf because you didn't think your argument was going well/that you were going to get anywhere.

No it isn't. I don't build a case on clov to persuade anyone, and I don't wait on anyone to refute nonexistent arguments before i change my mind either. 

On re-read this is essentially true. 

Let's call it tone and gut and agree to disagree on this. (The red is in relation to Question/Answer 5).

 

(turns out i was too lazy to doublecheck this factoid but it's probably true considering my alignment). 

What? 

 

5. i almost always catch a wolf through their opening content: fnord, killer, cormag, heathcliff, lycan. i think there's a method to my madness, and i don't think it's wolfy for me to find the scummiest op and build a case for it.

I tend to try and gut-read like this too, but (the red) didn't you just say "I don't build a case on clov..." ? (see above)    

 

6. you have a strange opinion on what constitutes a fos. acknowledging a possibility isn't the same as voicing an opinion, right? you could be scum, but it doesn't mean you're likely to have randed it.

all you need to do to confirm is look at my history.

Ok. i) you still didn't explain what you meant by the 'logic' I originally questioned/didn't understand - the part where you said your interactions were 'likely v/v violence', but that you'd be 'spewed' clear if he is Scum. 

And ii) I thought the part  "Clov also nudged me repeatadly[sic] and took me to task quite readily. "  was you voicing your opinion/potentially suggesting Clov could be to blame for the off vibe I was getting from the interaction. Tbh the rest of it makes no sense to me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

and the second part you're saying 'but I didn't elaborate because Clov is experienced and would have caught me in an awkward position if I'd tried to make stuff up'.

 

i'm saying the strategy lacked the requisite oomph to get the response i wanted.

 

 

That's what I'm getting at - I feel you're contradicting yourself and not actually answering the question about why you didn't elaborate. What 'strategy' were you actually using/are you claiming to have used? 

Again, as I see it, you've mentioned two different motivations for 'strategy', and they seem contradictory to me in motivation - one plausibly Town, one far more likely to be Scummy. The fact you've separated them with a 'but' in your answer means you're not committing to either, and I find that reeks of scum. (copy-paste from what I said above):

 

I highlighted in red the part I found confusing/sketchy.  "I didn't elaborate since sometimes wolves ask why a person is reading them this or that, but clov is experienced and knew I was in an awkward position and didn't have a strong case so it meant very little." The first part makes sense enough by itself, but not in the context of the second part, which seems contradictory. It's like the first part you're saying 'I didn't elaborate because it's a strategy I use to catch wilves' and the second part you're saying 'but I didn't elaborate because Clov is experienced and would have caught me in an awkward position if I'd tried to make stuff up'. I'm  still don't entirely understand. Why would it be an 'awkward' position? Why would you want a 'strong case' if you were deliberately 'not elaborating'?

[Sili Quirrels]

calling them reads really doesn't do the word justice though.

[Thane Vakarian]

 

 

clov: i agree with this post of yours. That's the reason i let jmm breathe. Tress is right too. I wouldn't be THAT stupid to openly say i thought someone had a PR and then NK them. The only effect i'd hope to achieve is that the possible PR would be protected, in case another player would have missed it. 

 

Sili: I'm having a hard time making sense of you right now.... really... 

 

I'm glad you agree, but I don't buy the "I wouldn't do this...." argument.  It's nothing personal (I don't think you're stupid), but after the moves I've seen people make as scum, I don't accept there's anything people wouldn't do.

 

I'm also hesitant to believe that you were pushing his hint out there so that others would see it if they originally missed it.  Given that you just said you thought other players would notice it if you did as well.

 

Agreed upon. Some people do very crazy stuff as wolves. I did say that i thought other people would notice as well. I stated it again in a hope that there'd be a doc and that jmm would be protected (or self protect) N1. 

 

ignore Thane, really?

 

Yates: i thought Sili a possible wolf candidate early D1. His tone and general posting improved, that's why he went down my list of suspects. Right now, he's absolutely everywhere. He's not making sense at all to me. Usually, i can get where he comes from, but here.... nope. I think he's a good one for today

 

Sili... it's the way i read you. You started off quite... well, wolfy... D1. Later, you made more sense, got your thoughts together and posts were well done imo. You seem rather jittery and all over the place right now.

 

I asked earlier, not sure if you missed it, but I'd still like some examples of what swayed you to read him as scum and what made you feel better about him when you get a chance please. :)

 

Here's where Sili started to feel bad: http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/92184-basic-be-nice-mafia/?p=3400738 this post feels overexplaining things. And, a sentence like " Just because I didn't say something doesn't mean I'm not thinking it.".... this is an information game. Thoughts need to be put out. Not doing so isn't helpful. Then, the first line here doesn't look that good imo. Could and should have been formulated diffirently. 

 

FTR: if Sili should turn wolf, i think BFG would be a possible teammate, looking at this post

 

Sili, for me, started looking better after this post. He becomes clearer in his wat to express himself, explains his thoughts better. 

[Cass]

Anyone still here? I'm torn here between continuing my catch up and interacting in real time...

[Sili Quirrels]

 

Sorry, got interrupted by dinner.

 

 

 

haha ~ 'i'm scum again' ~ if only that were true.

 

there's an old pog guideline which says when a person frequently regresses to complacency when otherwise they are skeptical and wary they are a wolf.  it's hard to pretend to be someone you aren't all the time, so where it concerns high content or a broad focus, most players tend to be intermittent about pretending to scum hunt.

fyi, i started writing this before cass. it might seem pointless but it's relevant to reading clov, tress, and thane.

 

Lol I so very nearly went #FULLTINFOIL on you again for you 'insinuating' I might be scum here again there, especially that way. But ok. *Deep breath*  

 

For once I actually see the logic behind what you are suggesting - in theory. Can you explain/give quotes/examples of how you think 'regressing to complacency' and 'otherwise skeptical and wary' actually relates to the players you mentioned, in this game?

 

 

 

 

You didn't quote the original questions/things you the conversation was supposed to be pertaining to, again   . Are you doing this on purpose?? Added to here in spoilers for context/checks on continuity.

 

 

 

 

 

The specifics I worked on on Sili, also just in case.

 

 

NB I've tried to make this whole exchange as neat and as easy to follow as possible. Questions/Answers have been numbered and placed in sequential quotes, my old stuff is now all black, new stuff is up in blue, directly under the part it relates to. Nothing content-wise has been changed.

 

 

1 Why should we be reading you as Town?

2 What's the difference in your mind between a Town 'read' and a Town 'lean'?

3 What was your reason for suggesting Clov was a likely Wolf? Do you have a reason for not elaborating at the time?

4 You said chopping and changing is normal for you, and that you like to 'give your reads breathing room', but you 'pushed' Clov at least twice before suddenly dropping him and saying he actually seemed fine. Why?

5 Why is jmm's question about the number of wolves scummy?

6 How can you say you have Clov as Town because your interactions were 'likely v/v violence', but then claim you're 'spewed' clear if he is Scum? I can't follow that logic/don't see anything that points to either of these btw.

 

 

 

1 My engagement in the thread is good. I play this game to problem solve and my wolf game usually lags behind in this regard.

2 A read is a stated opinion while a lean is a stance. The former is less permanent, sometimes.

3 I was anxious to find scum so the first person to post something snarky caught my eye. I felt his soft nudge was unwarranted and premature given it was page 1. I didn't elaborate since sometimes wolves ask why a person is reading them this or that, but clov is experienced and knew I was in an awkward position and didn't have a strong case so it meant very little. I would approach it differently given another opportunity.

4 'at least twice'. How is it at least, and since when did I push him twice? I reminded him when it was apparent he wouldn't respond readily. To build a case twice on the same person I would have needed to adjust my reads three times. e.g. null -> scum -> town/null -> scum.

 

My process was null -> scum -> town. I changed my mind when his responses demonstrated a good level of engagement and insight; I read his nitpicking as genuine for clov (but I don't know him very well), and the conversation was remniscent of ones I've had with past villagers like csarmi or cory, and quite possibly clov in our one game together.

 

5The question was too detailed for me; for jmm it felt well thought out and premature. e.g. he says 'one or two scum probably'. He never responded to Clov's remark and he hasn't offered any useful input to gauge where he stands.

 

His latest post:

 

Truth.  I am very much taking that mindset, especially with Sili, since I tunneled him for a while last game   

like, he knows i'm town, otherwise the matter of tunneling me when I'm scum wouldn't be significant to him. Why not tunnel me again, right?

 

6 I rarely if ever engage/interact with my wolfpack. I don't have the knack for it. Clov also nudged me repeatadly and took me to task quite readily.

 

 

Quote 

(Originally Cass, - Pulled from top of Silli's next Quote - Time Stamp Lost)

1. Like I said in the generalised post, I'm glad you answered (and reading since that point, glad you have continued to interact) but I still feel like it took a lot to get you to 'explain' and that seems wilfy. I'll happily agree that you've been active in the thread since the beginning, but that alone doesn't automatically make you Town, and it's not quite the same as having a 'good' engagement - at least not to me...

 

2. Ok, cheers for explaining.

 

3. You felt his 'soft nudge was unwarranted given that it was page 1' and yet you voted BFG on Page 1 because of an emoticon. I mentioned before that I would have been ok to take that vote as a joke vote except you gave a 'proper' explanation when you unvoted and that seemed strange. The rest of your answer here feels like WIFOM. Except for the part where you say you'd approach it differently, what are you getting at there?

 

4. My explanation of 'twice' is that IMO you said you thought he was a wolf/pushed him for potentially being so here and here. I said you pushed him twice, not that you pushed him for two different things. The 'at least' is a disclaimer in case I missed something. WIFOM again for the 'I would have needed to adjust my reads three times... null-> scum -> town/null -> scum' thing. I never said anything like that and your null->scum->town thing could equally have been you backing off as a wolf because you didn't think your argument was going well/that you were going to get anywhere. 

 

5. I was wondering the same question (how many wolves), and asking whether it was one or two makes perfect sense to me, as it's highly unlikely to be anything else. I don't see this as wolfish, and I don't think that the 'probably' sounds overly out of place. I don't personally like jmm's tone or lack of as it makes him hard for me to read (and I find that suspicious in itself), but I don't think he's actually done anything suspicious yet. Because I don't see it as overly suspicious, I do find you jumping on this question somewhat opportunistic and therefore potentially wolfy. The point about the tunneling you when you're scum shouldn't be significant to him is a good one though - I'm waiting with interest to see his response.

 

6. I still don't understand your initial logic here (your interactions were 'likely v/v violence', but you're 'spewed' clear if he is Scum), and I can't confirm that you rarely engage/interact with your wolfpack / don't have a knack for it. I feel like you gave me fluff in answer for this question and then pointed your finger at Clov. The logic gap is/was a weak-to-null point for me, but not actually answering the question pings a little stronger.

 

 

 

1. It didn't take a lot ya know? I answered after you pointed them out to me, and all at once, not in bits and drabs. Yes, answering your questions was not my first priority, but I didn't dedicate space to not answering them either. There's nothing fishy here. 

 

I felt like it took a lot when I said that, probably because I felt like I had to highlight how scummy it seemed for you to avoid collaboration and plead for you to answer/explain in the post where I asked you not to give up if you were Town. You have to admit there was an attitude change between your 'I'm out' (etc) posts and the one where you actually started to answer the questions, and I felt like that wouldn't have occurred if I hadn't voiced concerns that your behaviour was likely to be scum. Reading on mobiles sucks, yes, but I can't tell for sure that you actually missed those questions at the bottom of the WoT the first time round. You did answer them, and now you're answering the questions that your original 'answers' raised, so that actually does look good. I find it a little fishy that you left out the original questions in the block of quotes you included in this answer, but for I'm trying to clear my head instead of tinfoil here so... Light help me if I'm wrong. 

 

2. Yep.

 

3. Bfg wasn't on my mind when I unvoted. Just clov. I never offered an explanation for my first vote. 

I think this one is definitely my bad. I interpreted the 'I may have been too abrupt' thing as relating to the vote on BFG, not Clov. On the re-read, you're right and you don't even mention BFG. 

FWIW in case you think it's suss, I think the tinfoil here occurred because I thought your vote on BFG for the emoticon was 'too abrupt', and so the words of this post associated with that event in my mind...    I obviously feel a lot better about this whole 'why wasn't it a joke-vote?' thing now.  

 

wifom? you think there needs to be a good reason page 1 for any sort of read?

No, my reference to 'WIFOM' was in relation to the answer you gave me when I asked why you didn't elaborate. I highlighted in red the part I found confusing/sketchy.  "I didn't elaborate since sometimes wolves ask why a person is reading them this or that, but clov is experienced and knew I was in an awkward position and didn't have a strong case so it meant very little." The first part makes sense enough by itself, but not in the context of the second part, which seems contradictory. It's like the first part you're saying 'I didn't elaborate because it's a strategy I use to catch wilves' and the second part you're saying 'but I didn't elaborate because Clov is experienced and would have caught me in an awkward position if I'd tried to make stuff up'. I'm  still don't entirely understand. Why would it be an 'awkward' position? Why would you want a 'strong case' if you were deliberately 'not elaborating'?

 

i would add a pound of logic since it was kind of flaccid in retrospect. reaction tests require traction.

Where would this 'pound of logic' come from if you 'didn't have a strong case' (your own words)? Why 'add' it instead of 'finding' it, if it was something you didn't already have?

 

4. =/ when you say i pushed him twice it implies a certain amount of sustained conviction or paranoia on my part.

The 'sustained' I agree with and was what I was implying was strange at that point of the game. 

'Conviction' and 'paranoia' would only be appropriate in the context that I thought what you were 'sustaining' was Townish. I didn't/don't, and I thought I'd made that pretty clear...

 

your null->scum->town thing could equally have been you backing off as a wolf because you didn't think your argument was going well/that you were going to get anywhere.

No it isn't. I don't build a case on clov to persuade anyone, and I don't wait on anyone to refute nonexistent arguments before i change my mind either. 

On re-read this is essentially true. 

Let's call it tone and gut and agree to disagree on this. (The red is in relation to Question/Answer 5).

 

(turns out i was too lazy to doublecheck this factoid but it's probably true considering my alignment). 

What? 

 

5. i almost always catch a wolf through their opening content: fnord, killer, cormag, heathcliff, lycan. i think there's a method to my madness, and i don't think it's wolfy for me to find the scummiest op and build a case for it.

I tend to try and gut-read like this too, but (the red) didn't you just say "I don't build a case on clov..." ? (see above)    

 

6. you have a strange opinion on what constitutes a fos. acknowledging a possibility isn't the same as voicing an opinion, right? you could be scum, but it doesn't mean you're likely to have randed it.

all you need to do to confirm is look at my history.

Ok. i) you still didn't explain what you meant by the 'logic' I originally questioned/didn't understand - the part where you said your interactions were 'likely v/v violence', but that you'd be 'spewed' clear if he is Scum. 

And ii) I thought the part  "Clov also nudged me repeatadly[sic] and took me to task quite readily. "  was you voicing your opinion/potentially suggesting Clov could be to blame for the off vibe I was getting from the interaction. Tbh the rest of it makes no sense to me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

and the second part you're saying 'but I didn't elaborate because Clov is experienced and would have caught me in an awkward position if I'd tried to make stuff up'.

 

i'm saying the strategy lacked the requisite oomph to get the response i wanted.

 

 

That's what I'm getting at - I feel you're contradicting yourself and not actually answering the question about why you didn't elaborate. What 'strategy' were you actually using/are you claiming to have used? 

Again, as I see it, you've mentioned two different motivations for 'strategy', and they seem contradictory to me in motivation - one plausibly Town, one far more likely to be Scummy. The fact you've separated them with a 'but' in your answer means you're not committing to either, and I find that reeks of scum. (copy-paste from what I said above):

 

I highlighted in red the part I found confusing/sketchy.  "I didn't elaborate since sometimes wolves ask why a person is reading them this or that, but clov is experienced and knew I was in an awkward position and didn't have a strong case so it meant very little." The first part makes sense enough by itself, but not in the context of the second part, which seems contradictory. It's like the first part you're saying 'I didn't elaborate because it's a strategy I use to catch wilves' and the second part you're saying 'but I didn't elaborate because Clov is experienced and would have caught me in an awkward position if I'd tried to make stuff up'. I'm  still don't entirely understand. Why would it be an 'awkward' position? Why would you want a 'strong case' if you were deliberately 'not elaborating'?

 

okay, how about this, i'm going to hijack the quote and correct it so it reads better.

 

In blue:

 

"I didn't elaborate since sometimes wolves ask why a person is reading them this or that, but I don't think this worked since clov is experienced and knew I was in an awkward position and didn't have a strong case (cut this part out since it's now redundant). 

 

e.g. In the first part I declare it's a reaction test, and in the second I tell you why it was a bad one; the former is my intent, and the latter is the reason my intent was not achieved.

[Thane Vakarian]

i'm here

 

well, at work, and it's quite busy, but i'll do what i can

[Songstress]

Anyone still here? I'm torn here between continuing my catch up and interacting in real time...

 

I'm-a thinking about going to bed since it's after 12:30.

 

But thinking about it and doing it are separate issues.  

[Cass]

cass, is there anything you would like me to respond to?

 

Yes, I've posted part of it, am working on responses to the rest of your responses... putting them aside for a sec though to see if I can interact with others in RT too...

 

Bear with me everyone, I haven't entirely caught up since my specifics posts and RL today has been exhausting.

[Clovdyx]

 

 

 

clov: i agree with this post of yours. That's the reason i let jmm breathe. Tress is right too. I wouldn't be THAT stupid to openly say i thought someone had a PR and then NK them. The only effect i'd hope to achieve is that the possible PR would be protected, in case another player would have missed it. 

 

Sili: I'm having a hard time making sense of you right now.... really... 

 

I'm glad you agree, but I don't buy the "I wouldn't do this...." argument.  It's nothing personal (I don't think you're stupid), but after the moves I've seen people make as scum, I don't accept there's anything people wouldn't do.

 

I'm also hesitant to believe that you were pushing his hint out there so that others would see it if they originally missed it.  Given that you just said you thought other players would notice it if you did as well.

 

Agreed upon. Some people do very crazy stuff as wolves. I did say that i thought other people would notice as well. I stated it again in a hope that there'd be a doc and that jmm would be protected (or self protect) N1. 

 

ignore Thane, really?

 

Yates: i thought Sili a possible wolf candidate early D1. His tone and general posting improved, that's why he went down my list of suspects. Right now, he's absolutely everywhere. He's not making sense at all to me. Usually, i can get where he comes from, but here.... nope. I think he's a good one for today

 

Sili... it's the way i read you. You started off quite... well, wolfy... D1. Later, you made more sense, got your thoughts together and posts were well done imo. You seem rather jittery and all over the place right now.

 

I asked earlier, not sure if you missed it, but I'd still like some examples of what swayed you to read him as scum and what made you feel better about him when you get a chance please. :)

 

Here's where Sili started to feel bad: http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/92184-basic-be-nice-mafia/?p=3400738 this post feels overexplaining things. And, a sentence like " Just because I didn't say something doesn't mean I'm not thinking it.".... this is an information game. Thoughts need to be put out. Not doing so isn't helpful. Then, the first line here doesn't look that good imo. Could and should have been formulated diffirently. 

 

FTR: if Sili should turn wolf, i think BFG would be a possible teammate, looking at this post

 

Sili, for me, started looking better after this post. He becomes clearer in his wat to express himself, explains his thoughts better. 

 

 

Interesting.  I don't know that I've seen BFG as scum so I'm not sure of her tendency to bus, but I actually thought that her being Mafia would clear Sili.  That seemed like a very subtle nudge of getting votes on him and was one of the early strikes I had against her.  Given how many of us had early suspicions of Sili, I thought that might have been a very sly way of Mafia!BFG forcing the mislynch.  Basically "guilting" us into voting Sili.

[Thane Vakarian]

it's 8:43 am here, been at work since 5 am (meant i got up at 3:30am).

 

Mafia is relaxing, really... 

[Clovdyx]

Cass, what did you want to ask Jmm?  

[Sili Quirrels]

Here's where Sili started to feel bad: http://www.dragonmou...afia/?p=3400738 this post feels overexplaining things. And, a sentence like " Just because I didn't say something doesn't mean I'm not thinking it.".... this is an information game. Thoughts need to be put out. Not doing so isn't helpful. Then, the first line here doesn't look that good imo. Could and should have been formulated diffirently.

 

 

1. people don't express every thought and they aren't expected to. one could even argue some thoughts are meaningless to speak out loud: t's a lot easier to let go of a bad line of reasoning when you're not talking about it.

 

2. if i remember right i responded to clov after two or three of his larger word blots, since i thought it was tangential to +ev thread flow. if he was town, i was thinking, it would be best to end this sort of dialogue because it achieves nothing objectively. hence why i say it's meaningless.