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WoT If...Moridin Is a Double Agent?

Posted by Mashiara Sedai on Dec 11 2012 04:00 AM under in Theory Blog
Welcome back to "WoT If?"! A Memory of Light is only four weeks away, so I'm going to try to make these last few pre-release blogs meaningful. This week, I'm going to look into Moridin's character and motivation and try to come up with a few ideas about why he does what he does. As always:

Spoiler warning! This will include content from many books in the series, including Towers of Midnight, and speculation about A Memory of Light. Please read at your own risk.

Also, this WILL NOT contain spoilers from A Memory of Light's Prologue, Chapter 1, Chapter 2, Chapter 11, or Tor's daily previews. Please refrain from posting any spoilers from A Memory of Light in the comments section. The A Memory of Light spoiler discussion board can be found here.

There's a lot of background information about Ishamael/Moridin that's important to his reasoning. I'll try my hardest to be brief, but I don't know how much I'll succeed.

Ishamael was only half-sealed into the Bore and was able to touch the world occasionally. This small freedom left him "half-mad" and "less than half-human," according to Sammael (The Fires of Heaven, Prologue). I think there's also insinuation that he was mad before being sealed. However, since his full release (and his rebirth as Moridin), he seems more cunning and clever than insane. Or perhaps that's part of the insanity?

Does this madness aid his plans or hinder them? Are some of the contradictory actions we see him take a result of this lack of sanity? Or are his plans so well developed that he can pull them off despite having a scarred mind? He had 3000 years to influence the world and events, so I'm sure his ideas are perfectly planned, but there are inconsistencies.

One inconsistency of Ishamael's plans (or the Dark One's?) is his desire to kill, then not kill, Rand. I haven't gone through and counted how many times the orders have been flip-flopped, but we all know it's happened several times. Here are a few examples. The first is a Dream Egwene had:

The Dragon Reborn
Chapter 48, "Following the Craft"

He [Rand] had been sneaking through utter darkness toward Callandor, while all around him six men and five women walked, some hunting him and some ignoring him, some trying to guide him toward the shining crystal sword and some trying to stop him from reaching it, appearing not to know where he was, or only to see him in flashes. One of the men had eyes of flame, and he wanted Rand dead with a desperation she could nearly taste. She thought she knew him. Ba'alzamon. But who were the others?

So, here, in book three, Ishamael wants Rand dead. Is that his own desire, or the Dark One's? Later, Sammael says to Graendal:

A Crown of Swords
Chapter 20, "Patterns Within Patterns"

"Perhaps you ought to reconsider what you think the Great Lord means about leaving al'Thor unharmed."

Now, Rand shouldn't be harmed. But it's changed once again by orders from Taim, Demandred, and Moridin to the Asha'man Kisman:

Winter's Heart
Chapter 22, "Out of Thin Air"

"Kill him," the M'Hael had ordered before sending them to Cairhien, but he had been as displeased that they were found out as that they had failed. Far Madding was to be their last chance; he had made that as plain as polished brass. Dashiva had simply vanished. Kisman did not know whether he had run or the M'Hael had killed him, and he did not care.

"Kill him," Demandred had commanded later, but he had added that it would be better they died than let themselves be discovered again. By anyone, even the M'Hael, as if he did not know of Taim's order.

And later still, Moridin had said, "Kill him if you must, but above all, bring everything in his possession to me. That will redeem your previous transgressions."

Now, it's okay to kill Rand. And once more there's a flip-flop when Moridin commands the other Forsaken:

Knife of Dreams
Chapter 3, "At the Gardens"

"The time and manner of al'Thor's death will be at my choosing. No one else."

"Al'Thor is mine. You will not harm him in any way!"

The last change must be because of Rand and Moridin's link. Moridin says later that he "could throttle Semirhage for what she did" (The Gathering Storm, Chapter 15, "A Place to Begin"), because Rand's lost hand has affected him as well. This is a major piece of evidence for the body-swap theory because it shows how much their link has turned physical.

What's the reasoning behind this inconsistency? As I said previously, it might be Ishamael's insanity. Whether or not he was technically the Nae'blis before, he surely had more authority than the others, and most likely had a hand in most of their plans (he did have 3000 years to organize and manipulate that the others did not). Or does this reflect a change of heart in the Dark One? That seems unlikely to me. Though Verin does say:

The Gathering Storm
Chapter 39, "A Visit From Verin Sedai"

"The Chosen are predictable, but the Great Lord is anything but. Even after decades of study, I can't be certain exactly what he wants or why he wants it. I only know that this battle isn't being fought the way that al'Thor assumes it will be."

Perhaps the Dark One is capable of changing his mind in quick succession. Maybe a lot has to do with the plans Rand was doing at the time. Naturally, the Dark One would want Rand dead rather than have him successfully remove the taint.

There are many, many times when Ishamael says Rand will serve him, even in death. But is that true? That may be a boast on the Dark One's part—trying to scare Rand into serving him willingly. In earlier blogs, we've talked a bit about Rand's soul—and other Heroes'—and whether they go to Tel'aran'rhiod right after death. If that is the case, Rand's soul wouldn't be available to the Dark One. If the Dark One isn't able to get his hands on the Dragon's soul if Rand dies, then he would definitely want Rand to serve him alive, if possible. But if there is no Dragon, the Dark One wins, so he could still want Rand dead, whether or not he can access the Dragon's soul. Logically, there's motivation for wanting to keep Rand alive and wanting him dead.

What of Moridin being the Dark One's champion? He seems to think he is, saying he and Rand/Lews Therin have fought thousands of times with the turning of the Wheel. But how much can we trust his reasoning? He is mad, and possibly deranged. Metal Head said,

"I do think that the Dark One has always had a champion, but it was a different soul every time. It would HAVE to be, because if one "soul" failed the Dark One, lost his "Last Battle" and consequently allowed the Dark One's prison to be re-sealed, that would mean that particular Nae'blis was a failure. Why would the Dark One keep tapping the same soul to be his Nae'blis when that soul has only ever failed to free him?"

This is a great idea! Why would the Dark One recycle a soul that failed him so miserably? Even with the Forsakens' constant scheming, they prove themselves weak and childish, after their own desires, not the Dark One's. Why would he want them to serve him again in the next Age? Although, maybe the Dark One doesn't have any of the power he claims. If Ishamael's soul is eternally bound to the Dark One the way the Dragon is bound to the Light, then the Dark One's control over events is a lot less than he boasts.

Brandon Sanderson said in an interview that, "Rand and Moridin are also frequently woven together in the Pattern." If that's the case, Moridin is eternally tainted by the Shadow. That means he was predestined to go to the Shadow during the War of Power. That means he was a bad guy before he even realized he was a bad guy. Keeping with the theme of the series, this doesn't sound right. Very few things in The Wheel of Time are black and white—no one is pure evil, no one is pure good. Each character has flaws and talents. Even the Forsaken aren't absolute Shadow; they do what they do out of selfishness, but not out of a desire to be evil. Because of this, I don't think Ishamael is eternally tainted. He has to be able to get salvation.

I don't know how popular the theory of Moridin returning to the Light is, but I think it's a real possibility because of that argument. It was logic that sent him to the Shadow to begin with (The Gathering Storm, Chapter 15, "A Place to Begin"). That same logic can bring him back.

And here's where it gets a little crazy. What if Moridin is the double agent? With his logic, he knows there needs to be someone on the inside, getting close to the Dark One, understanding the Shadow's ultimate goals. Now, with that information, he has been fighting Rand, but what if the fights have been for Rand's own benefit? Each battle, each struggle, has led to Rand being more in control, more sure of himself and victory. Even Rand sinking to his lowest and his use of the True Power led to his epiphany on Dragonmount in "Veins of Gold."

When Egwene stands up to Elaida they have a bit of an argument:

The Gathering Storm
Chapter 16, "In the White Tower"

"'As the plow breaks the earth shall he break the lives of men, and all that was shall be consumed in the fire of his eyes,' " Egwene said. " 'The trumpets of war shall sound at his footsteps, the ravens feed at his voice, and he shall wear a crown of swords.'"

Elaida frowned, taken aback.

"The Karaethon Cycle, Elaida," Egwene said. "When you had Rand locked away to be kept 'secure,' had he yet taken Illian? Had he yet worn what he was to name the Crown of Swords?"

"Well, no."

"And how did you expect him to fulfill the prophecies if he was hidden away in the White Tower?" Egwene said. "How was he to cause war, as the prophecies say he must? How was he to break the nations and bind them to him? How could he 'slay his people with the sword of peace' or 'bind the nine moons to serve him' if he was locked away? Do the prophecies say that he will be 'unfettered'? Do they not speak of the 'chaos of his passing?' How can anything pass at all if he is kept in chains?"

This exchange might seem off topic, but it shows that everything Rand has done has been the Pattern's purpose, including fights with the Shadow, namely Ishamael. Ishamael had to know each battle was doomed, since Rand was fated to at least survive until Tarmon Gai'don. So, why did he continue with these plans to kill Rand? Because each one ultimately helped Rand. I think Ishamael is going to be important to the Light's victory, and I think he's already aware of what he must do.

As I said, we only have a few more weeks before we know for sure. That's all for this week; I'm looking forward to the comments on this one. Thanks for reading!
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Posted by Mashiara Sedai on Dec 11 2012 04:00 AM under in Theory Blog


I see the logic in stating that Moridin might be a double agent, but are we just infected with Snape-ism? We've already had our double agent, and she was awesome. I would be very sad to see that theme repeated, both times so close to the end of the saga.

Concerning Sanderson's quote: frequently woven together does not mean always in opposition. I would say Birgitte and Gaedal are frequently(and ALWAYS) woven together, as well.

Off topic, but related: Possibility of a Horn of Valere for the Shadow?? They call him the Lord of the Grave, but the only resurrections we've seen are of Forsaken (the shadow's Heroes). Was Kari al'Thor actually there, in T'A'R? was she a darkfriend ("the Great Lord has a honeyed tongue"... something to that effect)? was it an Illusion? If the DO has a shadow-version of the One Power, maybe there is a duplicate T'A'R. just a thought, as we have seen NO hints of such a thing.

I rambled, hope everyone understands what I'm saying.

Love you, Mashi! (in a non-creepy, not-stalker kind of way :):

Have we considered the concept of circular lives in relationship to this? One of my early theories (that I dismissed because the DM crowd seemed so far beyond me) seems to fit decently here. What if they are two halves of the same individual, a split of sorts created by the need for balance between the Dark One and Creator? I think between Herid Fel's minute talks about breaking down and the various references to both the disparity and connection of Rand and Ishmael that this could be supported.

Great read Mashi!


I believe I agree with Tsukibana on the point of Moridin not being a double agent, partially because we have already had Verin revealed to us in that role. 


In my opinion, the two biggest keys to Moridin are the way he approaches situations logically, and the link between him and Rand.  As pointed out in a previous comment, the reason Moridin joined the shadow in the Age of Legends was logically it seemed the only thing to do.  While it could be said that Ishmor is mad, since he has come back as Moridin he has largely seemed sane.  Inconsistent and emotional yes, but sane. 


Throughout the last few books we've seen increasing effects of the link between Rand and Moridin.  Moridin's hand is stiff after Rand loses his, he refuses to allow anyone but himself to decide when/if Rand dies (possibly Rand's death will kill him as well?), and I'm yet to decide whether or not their emotional states seem to be linked because of the difficulty in keeping track of the timeline.  What, if any, effects have Rand's epiphany had on Moridin?  When Nynaeve delves Rand after first curing insanity in one of the Ashaman, could the thousands of "black thorns surrounding a liquid light" be a representation of Moridin and Rand's link?


I still hold that there is a possibility that due to recent events, Moridin's logic will lead him to think that helping the Light could make sense.

Moridin is obviously a double agent, he knows that in order to win the game and capture/kill the Fisher he has to play both sides or risk a war of attrition that reduces his chances of success. That's why he's ruling the black tower, masquerading as Taim, and yet still helps or hinders Rand as he sees fit.

I doubt that Moridin is a double-agent because he has been chosen as Nae'blis.  I don't believe that ANY Forsaken, especially not the one chosen as Nae'blis, could hide anything from the Dark One.  If you swear your soul to him, he OWNS you.  When you stand in the Pit of Doom, you cannot hide anything from him.  If Moridin were secretly planning to help Rand win, the Dark One would know.  At least, I THINK he would.


There was a very telling moment in Towers of Midnight where Rand and Moridin met in a dream and just chatted.  I don't recall the chapter specifically, but Moridin was clearly annoyed at the intrusion.  But they didn't fight, they just... talked.  I thought that was a VERY cool scene, and I wanted it to go on far longer than it did.  Rand addressed Moridin as "Elan" and spoke to him as he would speak to an old friend who had simply lost his way.  At one point he said something like "You always had so many questions in your mind, Elan."  We know very little about the relationship Lews Therin had with Elan Morin prior to the Bore.  But obviously they knew one another.  The body swap theory is still foremost in my mind, but I begin to wonder if they will not "swap" bodies, but actually MERGE into one person.  Balance has been a theme of WoT since the beginning.  Saidin & saidar, White and Black Towers, One Power & True Power, men & women... it seems a possibility that "Light & Dark" also need to be balanced.  This leads me to the idea that Rand and Moridin might represent this merging of light and dark.  It started with the inadvertent link during ACoS.


But I did learn something new from this week's blog that I hadn't considered before, I'm ashamed to say.  By the time Rand fought Sammael at Shadar Logoth, Moridin already had a desire to keep Rand alive, or else he never would have gone to Shadar Logoth to help Rand beat Sammael in the first place.  But Moridin's link with Rand at Shadar Logoth definitely raised the stakes.  I think there is something to this idea that if Rand dies, so does Moridin.  It might explain why he's delaying Rand's death.  He's trying to figure out a way to not die again himself, because with his link to Rand, he's not sure if the DO can bring him back again.  That would make a whole new ballgame out of the Last Battle, at least for Moridin.  Perhaps he needs Rand to die in the Pit of Doom, while Moridin and Rand are BOTH in the presence of the Dark One.  Might be the only way the DO can bring Moridin back.


I dunno.  But I grow more anxious for the last book with each new Theory Blog.  Thanks for the great ideas, Mashiara!

I remember Moridin talking to Rand in a dream talking about how they are connected (forget what book, having a brain fart), and Moridin was talking about how there is only now to live for; maybe Moridin doesn't want Rand dead (which seems to be the case in the latter books) because when Rand dies Moridin dies and he wants to enjoy the "now" while he can.  

@darthe RJ already said souls couldnt be split between multiple people...


@michaelofthewhite moridin is not taim... although it is possible they are father/son...


@metalhead moridin was not named naeblis as far as we're aware, he could have just claimed the title... we dont see a scene where the do is naming him... moridin just showed up to the other forsaken and told them he was...

@Mark, The assumption that Moridin's claim to Nae'blis comes completely from the fact that he becomes the only one with access to the True Power (at least as far as I know)  apart from the tiny amount Graendel is able to use.



@michaelofthewhite, At what point is it confirmed, or even kind of confirmed that Moridin is Taim?  Taim seems much more like a pawn of some forsaken, or possibly an upper level darfriend.



Also, where the flippity bleep is Demandred X(

@neeknack and yet we also see other forsaken use the TP, in the ToM prologue for one... clearly it isnt restricted only to the naeblis...


and, i believe that demandred is hiding as the king of murandy... he came out of nowhere, and quite quickly became close to the band, and able to finance a military considerably larger than a country of the size should be able to...

I stated that Graendel is able to use a minimal amount of the TP....

i believe it is very possible that Moridin is a double agent. however, let me add another possibility:

Maybe the Dragon And the Nae'blis are eternally linked in the pattern. but who says they're position are always the same? Ishamael once taunts Rand by saying that in past lives he served the shadow.

The point about the Dark one not wanting to recycle souls that fail was a real eye-opener for me. what if Ishamael and Rand are always there, but they're position is optional. 

if this is the case, then Moridin being a secret agent of the Light would answer another question i've been having for a long time: what makes this Age so different?

if Rand and Moridin are on the same side this time, that may be the deciding factor in the "killing the Dark One" effort.

moridin is not a double agent,

moridin is double "0" thirteen on his satanic majesty's very very secret service

with licence to kill and create chaos and confusion.

in fact the poor guy created so much confusion and inconsistencies that the

dark one urgently ordered him back to shayol ghul:

do-"0013 what are you doing?"

0013-"i have no idea my lord"

do-"0013,please make up your mind,dead,alive,dead,alive,dead,alive,it just

can not go on like this"

0013-"i am confused"

do-"you are confused?,and what about me?i am  sitting here in shayol ghul with a

severe headache !!!!!"

"from this day on,you are no longer nae'blis,you will remain 0013 forever!!!

0013-"noooooo,i am not a number,i am a free forsaken and nae'blis"(sobs)


cherish your freedom forsaken,in a few weeks time confusion will end and

rand will crush you.

I think Moridin is not a double agent, due to the fact that Moridin was instructed by the DO MENTALLY not to punish Graendal in the scene in ToM when Graendal was instructed to kill Perrin. If he was not, then Graendal would have punished for causing Aran'gar's death.

One other part of the equation is Shaidar Haran. The DO seems to be hedging his upcoming battle with Rand. Because He knows Moridin will lose his two - sided game?

@neeknack - let's not forget Rand having access to the TP... I wonder if he still does after his epiphany? Remeber, in the AoL, the TP was supposed to be just a power source that Lanfear tried to tap into.


@theileen - I agree with this possibility whole-heartedly. of course, we must assume Elan was scholar able to truly penetrate the past. where does his reasoning of past lives and eternal battles stem from? He had this knowledge BEFORE his dedication to the DO. When was the Horn crafted? Did other heroes in T'A'R break the precepts to spread knowledge? Did he learn this through portal stone worlds?!? *sigh* so much more I wish to know.

So, Moridin is Darth Vader then.


@Tsukibana - Regarding where Moridin is drawing his belief about past lives and eternal battles... and this is ALL opinion.  We're theorists here right?  Facts are for wussies.  :)


I would argue that Elan Morin reasoned it out for himself, much in the same way (I think) Harid Fel did, and eventually Rand.


If time is a wheel, and there are only 7 unique ages, then all of this MUST have happened before in some capacity.  Including the imprisonment of the Dark One, the Bore, the War of Power, the imperfect sealing of the DO's prison, the DO breaking free, and even Tarmon Gaidon.  If the Dark One's prison was once whole and unblemished, and time is a wheel, then at some point IN THE FUTURE, the Dark One's prison will be again whole and unblemished.  His prison doesn't need to be just "re-sealed."  It needs to be completely "re-built."  We see Rand more or less reason this out in Veins of Gold, but Rand's question was "Why do I keep doing this?"  When Elan Morin came to these same conclusions, the question he asked himself was "What shall I do about it?"  Elan Morin never concerned himself with WHY time was a wheel, or if he did, he never found his answer.  So to him, it seemed like a big fat waste, and only worthy of destruction.  Rand nearly went down that same train of thought, but unlike Elan Morin, Rand figured out his reason for why: love.  I don't think Elan Morin knew love.  The Wheel of Time is all about unity and groups coming together to become stronger than they are apart.  Love is the ultimate form of unity.  Ishamael worked for thousands of years to PREVENT unity and sow chaos/disorder wherever he could.  Definitely NOT interested in love over on the Dark Side.


Just a thought.

Tsukibana, I agree that Rand/Moridin being spun out together doesn't always mean in opposition.  Even Birgitte said she and Gidal Cain got together as a couple, sometimes not.  It would be the same for Rand/Moridin.


To everyone, I think another major point we overlook is the actions of the Wheel to right the imbalance.  EVERYTHING the Forsaken have done has benefited the Light--whether it be Rand, Mat, Perrin, or even the other characters.  Each obstacle helps the Light characters grow and reach new heights.  Every struggle gets them closer to their goals.  So, even the Dark One's plans aid the Light.  And if Moridin (and Ishamael before) lead most of the Dark One's plans, it can be argued that Moridin/Ishy, knowing the logic of all this, that the Dragon HAS to live to the Last Battle, would know he was aiding the Light even with his Shadow plans.  So, he could easily keep it from the Dark One, because he's playing the Shadow's side--only knowing it will be exactly what the Light needs to win.


The scene with Rand and Moridin is in The Gathering Storm, Chapter 15, "A Place to Begin."  I agree that it is an awesome scene, and Rand even thinks, "One might have thought that they were two old friends, enjoying the warmth of a winter hearth."  There is a definite bond between the two, and it doesn't seem hostile in this scene.  Their threats seem out of habit, not out desire to harm one another.  This interaction hints at something more, something deeper, between the two.  It could just be from the balefire bond--but why did Moridin save Rand from Sammael in the first place?  Did he know--maybe from some prophecy or Foretelling--that he would be needed in Shadar Logoth, and that he needed to use balefire on Mashadar? 

To follow Elan's reasoning, it matches something else I too believe: If the ultimate goal of human reincarnation (if real, of course) is to join with the source of all things, then that indicates a loss of individuality, the "I" subsumed into the "All". In a way, Elan is on the side of ego - He does NOT want to have his role chosen again and again by the wheel. His logic leads him to the decision to try to break out of the cycle by breaking the cycle itself.


Theory - OP/TP is the pool of souls that all Non-heroes are subsumed into after death. Logic - Conservation of energy. OP/TP must have a source, and as Moiraine says, "no more than a miller's wheel uses up the river". The terminology is even the same - Threads of lives, threads of power. Weaving the pattern of an Age, weaving intricate tapestries and sending them forth.


If Elan and Lews Therin had does this time and time again, thousands of times, does this not point out that the DO has a place for his "heroes" to rest? Lore says all souls are reborn to a degree, (Semirhage), but only the Heroes are reborn for specific purposes each time around. If the Heroes represent the champions of Light, where is the Balance Mashi points out?


Mashi, we assume the balance working for the Light, but the wheel is neither good nor evil. Recall Perrin's discomfort at learning this (mixing the finest steel with bad tin, or something to that effect; EotW). I truly belive Elan is working towards the breaking of the wheel. Perhaps his constant flip-flopping and pensiveness comes from his knowledge of the past spins of the wheel. If Rand has some sort of Epiphany, can not Elan. He might have tapped into his past lives, like Rand or even Birgitte. Sooo... he says "Kill Rand", then after sifting through millenia of battles, he realizes "tried that, didn't work".

Sooo.. new plan, contradictory to the old. He strikes me like a master chess player with perfect recall of every game he's ever played. Only problem is, he keeps losing.

So, he could easily keep it from the Dark One, because he's playing the Shadow's side--only knowing it will be exactly what the Light needs to win.



But the Light never wins. It only achieves stalemate. The DO can't be destroyed, any more than every man could be. The world would't survive either loss. No Lord of the Grave equals no grave. Nothing dies.

Oh, man.  The 3 previous posts from Mashiara and Tsukibana are EXACTLY why I love this blog.


Mashiara, that's actually an incredibly astute observation (which just means that I have never thought of it, but I wish I had).  I like the idea that Moridin has become aware that everything he's done to try to obstruct or damage the Light has only made them stronger by forcing them to overcome.  I'm not sure if I agree that Moridin is now attacking the light because he's intentionally trying to make them stronger in the hopes that they'll win, though that would be satisfying to me if it turned out to be true.  Seems more to me like he is trying to make things easy for Rand in order to make him become more complacent, but is now realizing that has also failed.


And Tsukibana's idea ties in quite nicely to that basic idea.  Moridin has finally realized that every time he tries to kill the Dragon, all it does is make him stronger and MORE likely to win.  Sooo, new plan.  I think he's trying to lure Rand right into the Pit of Doom, where the Dark One can take direct action against Rand.  Maybe if the DO kills the Dragon (or turns him), he won't be reborn...?

The only place I would disagree with you, Tsukibana, is in the statement that "The Light never wins, it only achieves stalemate."  They HAD to have won at some point, because the Dark One's prison was WHOLE during the Age of Legends.  I guess it depends on the definition of victory.  If you mean the Light has never "killed" the Dark One, then I agree with you.  But at some point in the past turnings of the wheel, the Dark One's prison was rebuilt so perfectly that people in the Age of Legends barely knew the Dark One was even real.  And there was certainly no way for the Dark One to touch the world without getting some inadvertent aid from Mierin's experiments.  I think that's about as close to a total victory condition as the LIght could ever get.  Then again, it seems that Rand may have something else in mind entirely for his fight.

I agree with Metal Head on the importance of love. Like I already said twice on the forums:

I can't see how Elan could turn to the Light out of logic again, because he's actually right. Isn't it the integral nature of the Wheel that it turns endlessly and with each turning the DO wants to destroy it so that he can determine his own order? This specific cycle can only be stopped by the DO winning (unless one believes he can be utterly killed), while the Champion of the Light's task is to keep it going, thus each time defeating the DO, fighting for love, hope and joy (VoG), knowing that it will happen again. That's why he has to find his internal equilibrium, the joy of life and admiration for it - to know it's worth fighting for over and over again. Therefore, he needs memories of beautiful things which give him strenght.

I think Rand won't show him any way to end the cycle without the Dark One winning because there's no such way. It's only: are you willing to sacrifice yourself for love etc or not? So, does Elan have anything to fight for with each turning of the Wheel, which could make him change sides? Maybe he has no good memories or just doesn't appreciate life. I agree with those saying that we have yet to see if he had any VoG-like experience. If he had - what did he see?

What bothers me is this: does Rand currently really intend to kill the DO (which I personally don't think is possible)? Because if so, he could try to convince Moridin to join him. If not - I think there's no chance to change his mind.

I'd actually like to see Moridin turn to the Light, but - like I said above - I think there's little chance for it. And I doubt he's a double agent (but it's a nicely fresh idea, Mashiara!), acting for the Shadow, yet being aware that in the end it's for the benefit of the Light - remember the flickering scene in the GH, chapter 37, when Rand & co used the portal stone and saw their alternate lives? Verin commented that incident, saying that it's the people's choices that make the difference (in the case of Rand, for instance, not only his own decisions matter - in some flickering lives Moiraine visited the TR, in others not, which makes a big difference). I know it's obvious and was already mentioned here, but I think that the free will is something that wouldn't let Moridin predict the result of his actions. Or could he have predicted that Rand would experience ultimate enlightement - which was kinda mystical, therefore rather unpredictable - instead of killing himself? Individual choices can shape the particular Age's Pattern, I'd say.

Anyway, great post, as always, Mashiara :)

(By the way, I was surprised when - reading the aforementioned chapter - I rediscovered that in one of Rand's alternate lives Egwene killed him with a knife and he thanked her for it. I remembered it from Egwene's test only and now I see that such a desperate solution was suggested twice in the books...)
What bothers me is this: does Rand currently really intend to kill the DO (which I personally don't think is possible)? Because if so, he could try to convince Moridin to join him. If not - I think there's no chance to change his mind.


That's an interesting thought.  Has Rand figured out some way to actually slay the Dark One?  He's mentioned it before.  Moridin think's it impossible.  They thought healing stilling/gentling and cleansing the taint was impossible as well.


Gwen makes me realize that's the only way Moridin could possibly turn: If Rand is able to convince Moridin that it's not only possible, but that the world would be better off with the Dark One gone.  That last part is problematic.  Moridin WANTS the world to end.  He sees the endless repetition of the Wheel as something worthy only of destruction.  Unless Rand can convince him the Wheel is worth preserving, I don't seem him turning.  No one loves Elan Morin.  No one ever has, that we know of.  No love = no epiphany.  Probably.


There are three times (off the top of my head) when Rand says he will kill the Dark One in The Gathering Storm: Chapter 15 ("There is a way to win, Moridin," Rand said. "I mean to kill him. Slay the Dark One. Let the Wheel turn without his constant taint."), Chapter 15 again ("Anyway, it doesn't matter if the Forsaken return, it doesn't matter who or what the Dark One sends at us. In the end, I will destroy him, if possible. If not, then I will at least seal him away so tightly that the world can forget him."), Chapter 44 ("My duty is to kill The Dark One," Rand said, as if to himself. "I kill him, then I die. That is all.").  So I think he really means to try to kill the Dark One.  We haven't had too many POVs from Rand since he and Lews Therin merged, but since Rand has access to Lews Therin's memories, he could have more clues to how to do it.


We talked in a previous blog's comments about the possibility if Rand kills the Dark One, time might become linear, breaking the Wheel.  So, if Rand is able to convince Moridin that that could free him, Moridin could change sides.

oh i disagree that killing the DO would make time linear... i dont think the wheel would be able to spin without the DO, for long at least... i do think that rand will kill the DO tho. i think that fain is a young DO, and after rand kills the DO, fain will take his place inside the prison... where he'll be able to grow for the next few ages until this age comes again, where he's killed and replaced again... and the wheel keeps turning...

Moridin has been one of my favorite villains because he didn’t turn for power or wealth but because of logic that’s why I think it’s possible if new data/information were to come he might change which side he was on

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