Mat (stubborn or not)

[Finnssss22]

I don't hate Mat, but I find him incredibly annoying. Why he is such a fan favourite astonishes me. He believes he is always right, treats women like children (some of the women treat him the same way, for sure), refuses to listen to logic and constantly complains about his duties. Not to mention the whole weird thing with Tuon.

 

Sure, there is something about him that just makes people like him. But to me, he is the by far most annoying and stupid character. He keeps getting intro trouble and he does not understand what is going on around him half of the time - politics is NOT his strong suite.

 

I see people go like "he is so nice and awesome and the girls are so mean to him", and I'm like... Are we reading the same books? He takes unneccessary risks, and he does not believe anyone - particularly women, even women who have held their own several times - are capable of managing themselves. He rushes after them in places like Ebou Dar and often makes more trouble than there originally was. He does not respect that they have their own lives to live and their own missions - because in his book, whatever they want to do is unimportant, the only important thing is that he keeps them "safe". Had it been up to him, all the women of the series would be locked up in a room and refused to go out - for their own safety. He des not listen to them, and he is mad when they lie to him - which they have to, to be able to do their thing. Most of the cases of him "saving" them stems from him rushing after them wherever they are, causing someone to notice him / follow him which then in turn gets them all into trouble - and then Mat ends up sorting it out, but it wouldn't happen in the first place if he hadn't been such an overprotective fool.

 

He is so condescending and incapable of seeing that others do not need his "protection", while at the same time complaining that they aren't grateful enough for what they never asked for. Plus, he has that same stupid block on killing women that Rand has. Which also is extremely condescending, in my book. Like women are children (whom most people would have problems killing).

 

Well the whole "weird thing" with Tuon (Order) is that she is Mat's opposite (Chaos).

Mat was only overprotective of Elayne in Ebou Dar because he had made a promise to Rand to get her safely back to Caemlyn. A promise I might add that the girls used to manipulate him to going to Ebou Dar in the first place.

Mat only went to save them in Tear also because of a promise he made to deliver Elayne's letter to her mother.

 

Mat's "complaining" is what endears him to most people. No matter how loud or how often he complains about having to do something, there is absolutely no hesitation in doing it.

 

Mat is the bad boy, rebel with a cause and it's no secret he was one of RJ's favourites to write.

[jack of shadows]

i was wondering how long it would take you to turn up and defend mat,lol,

 

TAI'SHAR FINNSSSS,HAPPY NEW YEAR TO YOU AND YOURS.

[OlwenaSedai]

Mat and Rand both think they can make decisions for others, and they see everything else as virtually a delay/distraction. They can be really without respect. They were both convinced Egwene was just too stupid to realise she wasnt the "real" Amyrlin, for example. In some ways they are almost as bad ad Cadsuane when it comes to expecting everyone to do whatever they think they should do, and not respecting that people have other plans. And at least Cadsuane is somewhat of a badass, even though she can be really unlikeable. (She and Rand are similiar in some ways.)

 

Mat's complaining gets on my nerves because he seems to believe himself and his missions are the only important things in the world. And I guess I also sort of dislike him because he is exactly the sort of guy I dislike in the real world, who is unable to see women as anything else than either a potential bedmate or someone who needs his help but is too stupid or stubborn to realise it, and who aggrandizes his own importance. He is a self-assigned white knight, although he complains about it, and it irks me. But by all means, he is not the only one in Randland who needs to be taken down a notch.

 

While Rand is horribly arrogant and often foolish, and Perrin both insecure and sometimes blind, their change in behaviour and the way they develop makes sense, considering the way the story goes. I dont think the same holds for Mat, but I am open for arguments.

 

I wouldnt say the women manipulated him into going to Ebou Dar, they merely knew he would not give up "taking them" to Caemlyn, and figured it was easiest if he comes along. He is incredible - those women, not even bound by the rod could take out most threats themselves, but he seems to consider them helpless. That way of thinking he is the only capable person is his worst trait IMO, but I guess it does have an appeal to quite a few people ;)

[Finnssss22]

I wouldnt say the women manipulated him into going to Ebou Dar, they merely knew he would not give up "taking them" to Caemlyn, and figured it was easiest if he comes along. He is incredible - those women, not even bound by the rod could take out most threats themselves, but he seems to consider them helpless. That way of thinking he is the only capable person is his worst trait IMO, but I guess it does have an appeal to quite a few people ;)

 

 

 

LoD Chapter 39:

"Yes, that is Mat," Egwene sighed. He had been the most irresponsible boy in Emond's Field, maybe in the Two Rivers. "But if he gives his word, he keeps it. And I think he promised Rand to see you back in Caemlyn, Elayne. You notice he retreated to asking me"--in a way he had--"but you he never changed a hair on. I think he'll try to stay as close to you as your belt pouch. But we won't let him even see you unless he does as we want."

Edited December 31, 2016 by Finnssss

[OlwenaSedai]

Well, exactly. They used his stubbornness against him. They didn't really want him to come with them to Ebou Dar, but figured since he would come with them, they might aswell try to use him. Which is a sort of manipulation, definitely, but I still don't agree they manipulated him to get him to come to Ebou Dar. 

[Finnssss22]

Well, exactly. They used his stubbornness against him. They didn't really want him to come with them to Ebou Dar, but figured since he would come with them, they might aswell try to use him. Which is a sort of manipulation, definitely, but I still don't agree they manipulated him to get him to come to Ebou Dar.

 

Egwene had already figured out and explained how she was going to use the Band right before the paragraph I quoted...

 

 

 

LoD chapter 39:

Before she could speak, though, Elayne said, "Do you mean to join him and this Band of the Red Hand to Gareth Bryne?"

Egwene shook her head. The warders said there were six or seven thousand, more than she remembered from Cairhien, and a considerable number, if not nearly so many as those two captured men claimed, but Bryne's soldiers truly would not take kindly to Dragonsworn. Besides, she had her own scheme, which she explained while they drew the other chairs to the table. It was very like sitting in a kitchen talking. She moved the stole farther over.

"That is brilliant." Elayne's grin said she meant it. But then, Elayne always said what she meant. "I didn't think the other would work either, but this really is brilliant."

Nynaeve sniffed irritably. "What makes you think Mat will go along? He'll stick a pole through the spokes just for the fun of it."

 

We of course find out later that her plan was to play the Band off against her own army in order to increase it and to use it as leverage in the Hall.

This plan relies on two things though. Obviously if Elayne simply goes to Caemlyn, Mat and the Band will go with her so that won't do but Elayne has to make that choice on her own, which she of course does without Egwene even having to push her.

Second, it would be a lot harder to manipulate the Band if Mat is still there controlling it.

Taking Mat to Ubou Dar with them kills two birds with one stone. It leaves Egwene free to manipulate the Band for her own agenda and taking along Mat and some soldiers also provides Elayne and Nynaeve better protection to find the Bowl.

 

Oh yes, Egwene manipulated and used Mat, absolutely no question. 

[OlwenaSedai]

Egwene manipulates anyone and everyone. That is sort of her role for a lot of the mid to late series. And something that makes me dislike her, even though it is understandable.

 

The point is still that Mat is a lazy fool and yet simultaneously an unnecessary risk taker, who complains a lot. But he manages to appear likeable a lot of the time even so. The funny thing is, everyone sees it. And might that way also goad him a bit. But for example, before the escape from Ebou Dar, Thom says Mat, who lectures them about acting reckless, will be the one to do something rash and stupid and grand. He is right. Thom usually is. Mat should listen more to him (and anyone else, really).

[Finnssss22]

Egwene manipulates anyone and everyone. That is sort of her role for a lot of the mid to late series. And something that makes me dislike her, even though it is understandable.

 

The point is still that Mat is a lazy fool and yet simultaneously an unnecessary risk taker, who complains a lot. But he manages to appear likeable a lot of the time even so. The funny thing is, everyone sees it. And might that way also goad him a bit. But for example, before the escape from Ebou Dar, Thom says Mat, who lectures them about acting reckless, will be the one to do something rash and stupid and grand. He is right. Thom usually is. Mat should listen more to him (and anyone else, really).

 

List the reckless or unnecessary risks that Mat took.

[OlwenaSedai]

 

Egwene manipulates anyone and everyone. That is sort of her role for a lot of the mid to late series. And something that makes me dislike her, even though it is understandable.

 

The point is still that Mat is a lazy fool and yet simultaneously an unnecessary risk taker, who complains a lot. But he manages to appear likeable a lot of the time even so. The funny thing is, everyone sees it. And might that way also goad him a bit. But for example, before the escape from Ebou Dar, Thom says Mat, who lectures them about acting reckless, will be the one to do something rash and stupid and grand. He is right. Thom usually is. Mat should listen more to him (and anyone else, really).

 

List the reckless or unnecessary risks that Mat took.

 

It is hard to remember the specific circumstances without going back and rereading, but just from the top of my head, I remember: 1. Entering/conquering Tear 2. The whole Caemlyn/fireworks' guild thing 3. Escaping Ebou Dar 4. Chasing down the girls in Ebou Dar (and Tanchico? Can't really remember anymore what happened there, maybe I am mixing it up with a different situation) 5. Entering the ter'angreal in Rhuidean 6. Never really thinking through what he says, which leads to him babbling off to Seanchans and others while drunk 7. Basically anything else that doesn't involve direct battle or planning battle after the incident in pt 5. 7. Not realizing he should mainly leave meddling to Thom etc., he seems to be completely blind for the non-battle related skills of people around him, such as Thom when it comes to politics / reading currents and people and the women when it comes to doing magic and what that makes them capable of. 8. Taking the knife in Shadar Logoth despite all the warnings. He acted generally reckless in there.

Edited January 5, 2017 by OlwenaSedai

[mb]

a portion of those things seem to be predicted in earlier scenes.

the dagger was predicted in a Viewing; I think several chapters before he took it.

Egwene Dreamed him meeting an Illuminator; also him rescuing her in Tear.

the Aelfinn told that he should go to Rhuidean; also predicted several other things.

[Finnssss22]

It is hard to remember the specific circumstances without going back and rereading, but just from the top of my head, I remember: 1. Entering/conquering Tear 2. The whole Caemlyn/fireworks' guild thing 3. Escaping Ebou Dar 4. Chasing down the girls in Ebou Dar (and Tanchico? Can't really remember anymore what happened there, maybe I am mixing it up with a different situation) 5. Entering the ter'angreal in Rhuidean 6. Never really thinking through what he says, which leads to him babbling off to Seanchans and others while drunk 7. Basically anything else that doesn't involve direct battle or planning battle after the incident in pt 5. 7. Not realizing he should mainly leave meddling to Thom etc., he seems to be completely blind for the non-battle related skills of people around him, such as Thom when it comes to politics / reading currents and people and the women when it comes to doing magic and what that makes them capable of. 8. Taking the knife in Shadar Logoth despite all the warnings. He acted generally reckless in there.

 

 

 

#1 He had to get into the Stone to save the girls, which he did. His explosion provided a perfect distraction for Rand and the Aiel.

#2 No idea what you're talking about, be more specific

#3 Freeing the Seafolk women was a risk? Or talking Tuon along? The escaped Seafolk caused a disturbance just as Mat and company were getting through the lines to leave Ebou Dar. He HAD to take Tuon at that point or the Seanchan would still be at war with everyone, never mind entering the Last Battle with the rest of Randland. It took her away from Semirhage's influence and most likely Tuon would have eventually been killed by Suroth if she stayed in Ebou Dar.

#4 He wasn't in Tanchico. As far as Ebou Dar...he saved Elayne's from being killed by the Gholem. Directly and indirectly found the location of the Bowl as well. Not to mention he all but single-handedly got the Seafolk women in line.

#5 He had to, was told to in fact, he didn't have a choice. Go to Rhuidean Son of Battles/Trickster/Gambler, or you will die was the jist of it. This was one of the most important decisions he ever made in the entire series. It's mind boggling and quite frankly downright scary the amount of events, storylines and characters that cease to be if Mat doesn't have those memories, that ter'angreal and that weapon. Rand, Elayne, Moiraine, Tuon all dead.

#6 Not sure exactly what you're referring to but I'm almost positive that it leads back to being part of the Seeker setting Karede on the trail which eventually leads to him being able to bring Tuon back to Ubou Dar safely with the proof of Suroth being a traitor.

#7 Not sure what that has to do with risk taking exactly?

#8 Had to be done. The domino effect of him not taking the Dagger are once again mind boggling. No cleansed Saidin, no holes in his memories to be filled...the list is endless.

 

In the end, there's more than enough to make the argument that Mat had just as much affect on how events played out as Rand did.

 

Fine, you don't like Mat, fair enough but to say that his "risk taking" was a detriment to those around him or especially to the story itself...well, that's just completely false in so many ways, complete opposite in fact.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Finnssss

[Sabio]

 

It is hard to remember the specific circumstances without going back and rereading, but just from the top of my head, I remember: 1. Entering/conquering Tear 2. The whole Caemlyn/fireworks' guild thing 3. Escaping Ebou Dar 4. Chasing down the girls in Ebou Dar (and Tanchico? Can't really remember anymore what happened there, maybe I am mixing it up with a different situation) 5. Entering the ter'angreal in Rhuidean 6. Never really thinking through what he says, which leads to him babbling off to Seanchans and others while drunk 7. Basically anything else that doesn't involve direct battle or planning battle after the incident in pt 5. 7. Not realizing he should mainly leave meddling to Thom etc., he seems to be completely blind for the non-battle related skills of people around him, such as Thom when it comes to politics / reading currents and people and the women when it comes to doing magic and what that makes them capable of. 8. Taking the knife in Shadar Logoth despite all the warnings. He acted generally reckless in there.

 

 

 

#1 He had to get into the Stone to save the girls, which he did. His explosion provided a perfect distraction for Rand and the Aiel.

#2 No idea what you're talking about, be more specific

#3 Freeing the Seafolk women was a risk? Or talking Tuon along? The escaped Seafolk caused a disturbance just as Mat and company were getting through the lines to leave Ebou Dar. He HAD to take Tuon at that point or the Seanchan would still be at war with everyone, never mind entering the Last Battle with the rest of Randland. It took her away from Semirhage's influence and most likely Tuon would have eventually been killed by Suroth if she stayed in Ebou Dar.

#4 He wasn't in Tanchico. As far as Ebou Dar...he saved Elayne's from being killed by the Gholem. Directly and indirectly found the location of the Bowl as well. Not to mention he all but single-handedly got the Seafolk women in line.

#5 He had to, was told to in fact, he didn't have a choice. Go to Rhuidean Son of Battles/Trickster/Gambler, or you will die was the jist of it. This was one of the most important decisions he ever made in the entire series. It's mind boggling and quite frankly downright scary the amount of events, storylines and characters that cease to be if Mat doesn't have those memories, that ter'angreal and that weapon. Rand, Elayne, Moiraine, Tuon all dead.

#6 Not sure exactly what you're referring to but I'm almost positive that it leads back to being part of the Seeker setting Karede on the trail which eventually leads to him being able to bring Tuon back to Ubou Dar safely with the proof of Suroth being a traitor.

#7 Not sure what that has to do with risk taking exactly?

#8 Had to be done. The domino effect of him not taking the Dagger are once again mind boggling. No cleansed Saidin, no holes in his memories to be filled...the list is endless.

 

In the end, there's more than enough to make the argument that Mat had just as much affect on how events played out as Rand did.

 

Fine, you don't like Mat, fair enough but to say that his "risk taking" was a detriment to those around him or especially to the story itself...well, that's just completely false in so many ways, complete opposite in fact.

 

 

I think he meant that Mat knew he had to go to Rhudiean, but nothing told him to go in the doorway there.  It was a foolish risk since he assumed it was the same, and without thinking he stormed in and that assumption nearly killed him.  I would say the other reckless thing he did was take the dagger.  That was him being greedy and thinking he knew more then Moraine, with his thinking he clever since it wasn't "given" to him.  I mean it has to been deemed reckless since it very well could of killed everyone.  The risks he took ended up being needed, but I would classy those incidents as being reckless since he didn't really think either out before doing them.  Rescuing the sea folk women could be classified as sort of reckless, since it was a risk he really didn't need to take.  But I can't blame him for that since it wouldn't of been like Mat to simply abandon them.

[Finnssss22]

 

 

It is hard to remember the specific circumstances without going back and rereading, but just from the top of my head, I remember: 1. Entering/conquering Tear 2. The whole Caemlyn/fireworks' guild thing 3. Escaping Ebou Dar 4. Chasing down the girls in Ebou Dar (and Tanchico? Can't really remember anymore what happened there, maybe I am mixing it up with a different situation) 5. Entering the ter'angreal in Rhuidean 6. Never really thinking through what he says, which leads to him babbling off to Seanchans and others while drunk 7. Basically anything else that doesn't involve direct battle or planning battle after the incident in pt 5. 7. Not realizing he should mainly leave meddling to Thom etc., he seems to be completely blind for the non-battle related skills of people around him, such as Thom when it comes to politics / reading currents and people and the women when it comes to doing magic and what that makes them capable of. 8. Taking the knife in Shadar Logoth despite all the warnings. He acted generally reckless in there.

 

 

 

#1 He had to get into the Stone to save the girls, which he did. His explosion provided a perfect distraction for Rand and the Aiel.

#2 No idea what you're talking about, be more specific

#3 Freeing the Seafolk women was a risk? Or talking Tuon along? The escaped Seafolk caused a disturbance just as Mat and company were getting through the lines to leave Ebou Dar. He HAD to take Tuon at that point or the Seanchan would still be at war with everyone, never mind entering the Last Battle with the rest of Randland. It took her away from Semirhage's influence and most likely Tuon would have eventually been killed by Suroth if she stayed in Ebou Dar.

#4 He wasn't in Tanchico. As far as Ebou Dar...he saved Elayne's from being killed by the Gholem. Directly and indirectly found the location of the Bowl as well. Not to mention he all but single-handedly got the Seafolk women in line.

#5 He had to, was told to in fact, he didn't have a choice. Go to Rhuidean Son of Battles/Trickster/Gambler, or you will die was the jist of it. This was one of the most important decisions he ever made in the entire series. It's mind boggling and quite frankly downright scary the amount of events, storylines and characters that cease to be if Mat doesn't have those memories, that ter'angreal and that weapon. Rand, Elayne, Moiraine, Tuon all dead.

#6 Not sure exactly what you're referring to but I'm almost positive that it leads back to being part of the Seeker setting Karede on the trail which eventually leads to him being able to bring Tuon back to Ubou Dar safely with the proof of Suroth being a traitor.

#7 Not sure what that has to do with risk taking exactly?

#8 Had to be done. The domino effect of him not taking the Dagger are once again mind boggling. No cleansed Saidin, no holes in his memories to be filled...the list is endless.

 

In the end, there's more than enough to make the argument that Mat had just as much affect on how events played out as Rand did.

 

Fine, you don't like Mat, fair enough but to say that his "risk taking" was a detriment to those around him or especially to the story itself...well, that's just completely false in so many ways, complete opposite in fact.

 

 

I think he meant that Mat knew he had to go to Rhudiean, but nothing told him to go in the doorway there.  It was a foolish risk since he assumed it was the same, and without thinking he stormed in and that assumption nearly killed him.  I would say the other reckless thing he did was take the dagger.  That was him being greedy and thinking he knew more then Moraine, with his thinking he clever since it wasn't "given" to him.  I mean it has to been deemed reckless since it very well could of killed everyone.  The risks he took ended up being needed, but I would classy those incidents as being reckless since he didn't really think either out before doing them.  Rescuing the sea folk women could be classified as sort of reckless, since it was a risk he really didn't need to take.  But I can't blame him for that since it wouldn't of been like Mat to simply abandon them.

 

 

Him taking the dagger HAD to happen.

Him going through the 2nd Doorway HAD to happen.

[OlwenaSedai]

So you're saying he didn't have a choice? In that case, that goes for virtually all the actions all the characters take. Going to Rhuidean doesn't mean he has to go in the doorway. Yes, we should be glad he did in the end - we should also be glad the women used the bowl, even though that causes problems for a time, or that Egwene became Amyrlin, all things considered, and decided to take the Tower. Elaida was dangerous and would pose problems for Rand and the last battle. 

 

My main issue with Mat is his annoying over-protectiveness, he is like my nightmare of an overprotective brother. Nynaeve handled a forsaken in her FIRST meeting with one and yet he seems to think she is helpless like a babe. And he evaluates the looks of all women, it's literally the first thing he does. He doesn't do that with the men. Yes, you can feel that is irrational, but it makes me angry. I hate men who try to flirt with all women and act like all of them are a potential sex partner, the first time they see them. Women are human beings, not just bedmates.

That being said, as I mentioned, I DON'T hate Mat. He has a good heart, which mostly makes up for all his flaws - he is not as cynical as many of the other main characters and never forgets where he comes from. And that whole thing with Tylin, and how little support he got from the others about it, was heartbreaking. So it is impossible to hate him, but he does annoy me on very many levels. To me, he symbolizes the male ego, in many ways. :P 

[OlwenaSedai]

So you're saying he didn't have a choice? In that case, that goes for virtually all the actions all the characters take. Going to Rhuidean doesn't mean he has to go in the doorway. Yes, we should be glad he did in the end - we should also be glad the women used the bowl, even though that causes problems for a time, or that Egwene became Amyrlin, all things considered, and decided to take the Tower. Elaida was dangerous and would pose problems for Rand and the last battle. 

 

My main issue with Mat is his annoying over-protectiveness, he is like my nightmare of an overprotective brother. Nynaeve handled a forsaken in her FIRST meeting with one and yet he seems to think she is helpless like a babe. And he evaluates the looks of all women, it's literally the first thing he does. He doesn't do that with the men. Yes, you can feel that is irrational, but it makes me angry. I hate men who try to flirt with all women and act like all of them are a potential sex partner, the first time they see them. Women are human beings, not just bedmates.

That being said, as I mentioned, I DON'T hate Mat. He has a good heart, which mostly makes up for all his flaws - he is not as cynical as many of the other main characters and never forgets where he comes from. And that whole thing with Tylin, and how little support he got from the others about it, was heartbreaking. So it is impossible to hate him, but he does annoy me on very many levels. To me, he symbolizes the male ego, in many ways. :P 

[OlwenaSedai]

So you're saying he didn't have a choice? In that case, that goes for virtually all the actions all the characters take. Going to Rhuidean doesn't mean he has to go in the doorway. Yes, we should be glad he did in the end - we should also be glad the women used the bowl, even though that causes problems for a time, or that Egwene became Amyrlin, all things considered, and decided to take the Tower. Elaida was dangerous and would pose problems for Rand and the last battle. 

I don't really understand what you mean about him having to take the knife - they had to go to Shadar Logoth, yes, i guess, but as Sabio says, he didn't have to take the knife, and it was definitely reckless. Regardless of whether it didn't end up being all bad. An action can be reckless even though the consequences of it were desirable or at least not all baf. 

 

My main issue with Mat is his annoying over-protectiveness, he is like my nightmare of an overprotective brother. Nynaeve handled a forsaken in her FIRST meeting with one and yet he seems to think she is helpless like a babe. And he evaluates the looks of all women, it's literally the first thing he does. He doesn't do that with the men. Yes, you can feel that is irrational, but it makes me angry. I hate men who try to flirt with all women and act like all of them are a potential sex partner, the first time they see them. Women are human beings, not just bedmates.

That being said, as I mentioned, I DON'T hate Mat. He has a good heart, which mostly makes up for all his flaws - he is not as cynical as many of the other main characters and never forgets where he comes from. And that whole thing with Tylin, and how little support he got from the others about it, was heartbreaking. So it is impossible to hate him, but he does annoy me on very many levels. To me, he symbolizes the male ego, in many ways. :P 

[OlwenaSedai]

So you're saying he didn't have a choice? In that case, that goes for virtually all the actions all the characters take. Going to Rhuidean doesn't mean he has to go in the doorway. Yes, we should be glad he did in the end - we should also be glad the women used the bowl, even though that causes problems for a time, or that Egwene became Amyrlin, all things considered, and decided to take the Tower. Elaida was dangerous and would pose problems for Rand and the last battle. 

I don't really understand what you mean about him having to take the knife - they had to go to Shadar Logoth, yes, i guess, but as Sabio says, he didn't have to take the knife, and it was definitely reckless. Regardless of whether it didn't end up being all bad. An action can be reckless even though the consequences of it were desirable or at least not all baf. 

 

My main issue with Mat is his annoying over-protectiveness, he is like my nightmare of an overprotective brother. Nynaeve handled a forsaken in her FIRST meeting with one and yet he seems to think she is helpless like a babe. And he evaluates the looks of all women, it's literally the first thing he does. He doesn't do that with the men. Yes, you can feel that is irrational, but it makes me angry. I hate men who try to flirt with all women and act like all of them are a potential sex partner, the first time they see them. Women are human beings, not just bedmates.

That being said, as I mentioned, I DON'T hate Mat. He has a good heart, which mostly makes up for all his flaws - he is not as cynical as many of the other main characters and never forgets where he comes from. And that whole thing with Tylin, and how little support he got from the others about it, was heartbreaking. So it is impossible to hate him, but he does annoy me on very many levels. To me, he symbolizes the male ego, in many ways. :P 

[Finnssss22]

So you're saying he didn't have a choice? In that case, that goes for virtually all the actions all the characters take. Going to Rhuidean doesn't mean he has to go in the doorway. Yes, we should be glad he did in the end - we should also be glad the women used the bowl, even though that causes problems for a time, or that Egwene became Amyrlin, all things considered, and decided to take the Tower. Elaida was dangerous and would pose problems for Rand and the last battle. 

I don't really understand what you mean about him having to take the knife - they had to go to Shadar Logoth, yes, i guess, but as Sabio says, he didn't have to take the knife, and it was definitely reckless. Regardless of whether it didn't end up being all bad. An action can be reckless even though the consequences of it were desirable or at least not all baf. 

 

 

Not quite sure what problems the Bowl caused? If you mean how the Power was going wild near Ebou Dar, you're confusing Elayne blowing up her gateway with the Bowl use.

 

Mat had to take the knife so Fain would have it later to cut Rand with. If Rand isn't cut by that knife, then he doesn't figure out how to cleanse Saidin. Kind of a big deal no?

[BFG]

I do like Mat, but he is reckless lol

 

Yes Mat needed to take the knife for plot reasons, but when he took it all he knew was that the Aes Sedai who saved his village told them it was a very bad idea, so although it turned out for the best that's hindsight bias

 

I'll look back at the other examples, but think most fall into Mat not having perfect knowledge

 

Mat thinks Egwene is a puppet which is exactly what she was 'supposed' to be, it's an apt read of the situation at the time. He could have had more faith that Eg wouldn't accept that, but similarly it took Eg umpteen books to realise the real worth in Mat or Perrin.

 

Regarding Elayne, his knowledge of her at the Camp is that she's a Princess who needed rescuing in the Stone, who didn't say thanks, who flirted with Rand and he knew little else. He promised Rand that he'd look after her and they spent most of their time sneaking around behind his back.

 

Similarly Nyn is a village wisdom with no more experience of the world than him, who startsthe books acting childishly and has temper issues for a long time, who again needed rescuing the last time he saw her (and needed rescuing in Ebou Dar after Moggy almost killed her).

 

At no point is their communication between them to say oh look things have changed, I'm stronger now, for which all sides are to blame, that isn't Mat being reckless that's Mat acting with imperfect knowledge, as do all the characters

 

 

Birgette and Aviendha also show that he doesn't think all women need protecting/coddling

[Sabio]

 

So you're saying he didn't have a choice? In that case, that goes for virtually all the actions all the characters take. Going to Rhuidean doesn't mean he has to go in the doorway. Yes, we should be glad he did in the end - we should also be glad the women used the bowl, even though that causes problems for a time, or that Egwene became Amyrlin, all things considered, and decided to take the Tower. Elaida was dangerous and would pose problems for Rand and the last battle. 

I don't really understand what you mean about him having to take the knife - they had to go to Shadar Logoth, yes, i guess, but as Sabio says, he didn't have to take the knife, and it was definitely reckless. Regardless of whether it didn't end up being all bad. An action can be reckless even though the consequences of it were desirable or at least not all baf. 

 

 

Not quite sure what problems the Bowl caused? If you mean how the Power was going wild near Ebou Dar, you're confusing Elayne blowing up her gateway with the Bowl use.

 

Mat had to take the knife so Fain would have it later to cut Rand with. If Rand isn't cut by that knife, then he doesn't figure out how to cleanse Saidin. Kind of a big deal no?

 

 

Yes it had to happen, but that's not why he did those things. it also doesn't mean he wasn't reckless in those actions.  Going through the doorway nearly killed him, carrying the dagger nearly killed him.  Both of these things Mat didn't know he had to do when he did them.  He saw a valuable looking dagger and took it, then lied about having it.  While unleashing an evil that could of destroyed the world.  He saw a doorway and simply walked in, simply assuming the doorway was the same.  These are reckless actions.  Yes we know he had to do those actions, but he didn't.

[BFG]

I'll give you the dagger, but I think Rhuidean isn't as clear cut. Yes he didn't know specifically what he had to do, but it was pretty apparent that he had to do something more than just look at the ruins

[mb]

not sure about the dagger cut from Fain causing the Cleansing of saidin.  some Rand POV tells that the Aelfinn gave him an answer about that; and that he discussed it with Herid Fel.  and I am not sure if the Healing of that cut was discussed with Rand in detail; Rand was unconscious while that Healing was taking place.

the Aelfinn answer and the mentioned discussion/discussions might have been enough for Rand.  and/or Rand could have come up with the method through any number of means.

 

 

forgot to tell in last post that one more thing was predicted.

a Viewing told that one of the collared Aes Sedia was going to be rescued.

[jack of shadows]

@olwena,

"so you're saying he didn't have a choice? in that case,that goes for virtually

all the actions all the characters take.'

you have asked the most crucial question regarding the wheel of time world,

i.e.did he/she have a choice?the short answer to your question is probably not,

the pattern,the ultimate corrective mechanism is in control and calling all the shots,

there is no free will in randland,maybe,if you're a nobody from caemlyn,the 

pattern would let you gain a modicum of control over your decisions,maybe,

but for someone like mat? none whatsoever.

don't get me wrong,i am not defending mat,like i said to szilard in a different post,

i don't give a rat's arse about him,but(when reading the wheel of time story),

one should never ignore the pattern,the chess grandmaster of the world,playing

with everyone's lives.

 

in one of your previous posts you wrote this about rand and mat:"expecting everyone

to do whatever they think they should do,and not respecting that people have other plans."

what other plans?the end of the world was approaching like a freight train,so what

choices did they have?

the dragonsworn's approach was spot-on,"rand's coming was said to remove all bonds

from men.oaths shattered when he drew near,and any loyalty or alliance was secondery

to the need to serve him in this last fight for humankind."

Edited January 6, 2017 by jack of shadows

[Finnssss22]

not sure about the dagger cut from Fain causing the Cleansing of saidin.  some Rand POV tells that the Aelfinn gave him an answer about that; and that he discussed it with Herid Fel.  and I am not sure if the Healing of that cut was discussed with Rand in detail; Rand was unconscious while that Healing was taking place.

the Aelfinn answer and the mentioned discussion/discussions might have been enough for Rand.  and/or Rand could have come up with the method through any number of means.

 

 

forgot to tell in last post that one more thing was predicted.

a Viewing told that one of the collared Aes Sedia was going to be rescued.

 

It was how he was "healed" after Fain sliced him that showed him how to cleanse saidin. Flinn didn't actually heal him, he walled off the two evil's together, said that they were fighting each other and canceled each other out. THAT was what gave Rand the solution, not what Fel said. His conversations with Fel had to do with how to re-seal the DO.

The Pattern is far reaching. Just like how Tigraine had to do what she did so Rand could be born on the slopes of Dragonmount 20 years ago. Shadar Logath had to be there for the Dragon Reborn to cleanse saidin.

Even though RJ said in the past that Fain was "kind of outside the pattern", I don't believe that was always the case though. He ended up being a loose thread after slicing Rand in aCoS as he really didn't have an affect on or was involved in anything after that. A loose end that was eventually snipped by the same person that released him in the first place.

The Pattern needed Sahdar Logath and Fain. Logath so saidin could be cleansed. Fain so that he could lead them to Falme, so he could lead Perrin to the Two Rivers, so he could tip Elaida over the edge to eventually make way for Egwene, so he could show Rand the way to cleanse saidin. After that, the Pattern was done with Fain.

 

@Sabio Mat was also told that along with him having to go to Rhuidean or he would die, that he was going to die and live again and that he was going to marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons. 

So what risk in his mind was he actually taking by going into the doorway in Rhuidean?

He hadn't died yet and he hadn't married Tuon yet.

 

Mat was a gambler, that's how the Pattern set him as. It was his job to take risks and be impulsive.

When the pattern needed to curb him for a while or didn't want him to be impulsive, it dropped half a building on him heh

Edited January 6, 2017 by Finnssss

[szilard]

My main issue with Mat is his annoying over-protectiveness, he is like my nightmare of an overprotective brother. Nynaeve handled a forsaken in her FIRST meeting with one and yet he seems to think she is helpless like a babe. And he evaluates the looks of all women, it's literally the first thing he does. He doesn't do that with the men. Yes, you can feel that is irrational, but it makes me angry. I hate men who try to flirt with all women and act like all of them are a potential sex partner, the first time they see them. Women are human beings, not just bedmates.

That being said, as I mentioned, I DON'T hate Mat. He has a good heart, which mostly makes up for all his flaws - he is not as cynical as many of the other main characters and never forgets where he comes from. And that whole thing with Tylin, and how little support he got from the others about it, was heartbreaking. So it is impossible to hate him, but he does annoy me on very many levels. To me, he symbolizes the male ego, in many ways. :P 

 

1. Olwena, please, stick to one username, I mean do not use them parallel. It's entertaining for a while, but after that it's annoying.

 

2. I don't know that you are a woman or a man, but if you are a woman and you will not accept this then you will be alone. Almost every men like this. 

 

 

 

And this topic is about hating, iirc. I usually do dot like hard mods, but it looks like the thread's totally derailed.