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 A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

[Basic] I <3 the 90's Mafia: Music Edition - TOWN WINS!

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in DM Mafia Games

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alannalynn Spam Master

alannalynn

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p indicates page, # indicates post number, I will generally link if I'm referring to a particular post (if I feel like it, which I probably wont)

 

p140 Clov says he needs to take a look at Liz, easily says he would lynch Darthe/Wish

 

p141 Zander scum reading Lenlo (he was already pushing Wish and calling her scum)- reasons for death?

 

p142 Clov linking Lenore/Lily, and Lenore/Darthe, which really is useless now; there's actually also a defense of Liz happening bc Liz mistakenly said Celeste instead of Wish: Chris derp clears her for this (carries on through the next few pages); both Z and BFG mention her lower involvement than in Mafia Karts though I know she's mentioned being sick (#2843)

p142 #2834 BFG makes a post on Liz, showing that Liz voted Seph d1 while focusing on Lenlo, which looks odd. #3866 Clov responds and argues against BFG's case and ends up refuting it... I guess? I'm struggling to see if Clov was defending Liz or white knighting her (this conversation mostly carries on until 145 if anyone wants to look)

 

p146 #2910 Weird vote? Besie votes Niniel and then says "when I'm caught up I'll see who I want to look at again" as if she's just sitting a third vote on a train without reason. Strange. And then #2921 she said there's not reason she's going to change her mind and isn't going to reread her which imo is anti-town. I like that Sili calls this behavior out. This:

 

 

so in summary you feel like you need to get a vote down right now on a wagon that got two votes in 5 minutes.

Basically this exchange is super wolfy for Besie. She's dropped a third vote on a train that built pretty dang quickly at the start of day even though she hasn't caught up (I think she said she hadn't read pgs 50-80) and states that nothing is going to change her vote but she needs to reread other players. Why the heck not reread the person that you're voting to be more sure about what you're doing? It's so so sus

 

#2957 Is weak imo. I need raisons.

 

#3033 I'm realizing Kat has no remorse for people that are busy when day starts. :/ She was complaining about people not checking in at start of day, which was at 945am... and this post is at like 345pm, 6 hours later. I was sleeping during that time :sad:

 

p153 Wish makes a push on Lenlo, want to see where this progresses; compared to Niniel's post right after that, Wish's "I want to look at Lenlo" is weak.

 

p154 #3069 Lenlo defends Wish- dislikes cases that have been made on her

 

#3085 I kind of like that Kat brings up Zander's anti-Liz stance. That and his stance on Wish made me think he's was a good kill n1. Because otherwise he was nk'd for A) only going after Wish (a lot of people were doing this) and B) get the page count down, imo

 

p155 Sili is right, re: Lenlo's behavior

 

A lot of these pages are Hally/Sili going back adn forth and I'm just skimming through them until I have something to comment on.

 

#3242 this post doesn't bother me in context

 

Kat prob definitelly town.

 

#3277 ????? LIZ? I hate this vote. Vote drop and "I'm not caught up, will be back and explain this later" Is just gross gross #3307 I'm still confused. #3311 barely helps

 

p169 #3361 Clov defends Lenlo's EOD

p169 #3375 Wish also defends Lenlo (Note: I find it strange that she pushed Seph over the edge and didn't notice his frustration as townie on Day 1, yet here she's applying different standards to Lenlo)

 

 

//pausing top of 170 Note: that just took 3 hours to read 30 pages skimming >_>

 

Notes:

  • Zander was pushing Lenlo, Liz, and Wish d1. Earlier I questioned why he was NK'd- he creates a difficult environment for people to catch up, making it easier for scum to hide. He also could have been a mislynch if pushed enough, imo. Additionally, I don't think scum reading just Wish is enough reason to nk Zander, but that's just me. I think it's likely one of Liz/Lenlo are mafia.
  • Chris defended Liz and Besie, Lenlo defends Wish and vice versa (Wish applied different standards to Lenlo than Seph**), Liz and Besie both independently wolfy
  • Kat looking really townie, so does Sili

 

Can you explain to me how I'm wolfy, Alanna? Because I don't recall you actually giving any kind of explanation for your sudden shift to a "wolfy" read on me.

 

Largely POE, the fact that you were defended by a wolf, pushed by a villager, the drastic change from the last game we were in together (yes yes I know you've been sick and behind but I still have to take it into account). Plus this is my first time reading parts of the thread so I'm pulling things back up. If you're talking about a "sudden shift", it's actually happening around the time you started posted in thread not necessarily just now, since I'm a time traveler and I'm playing in the past like a loser lol

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alannalynn Spam Master

alannalynn

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Now. Besie and Liz. Liz > Besie, because Clov looked to be going after Besie seriously.

How was he seriously going after Besie other than that last minute flip that was too late to count?

 

@Lenlo can you expand more on the points where Clov was actually going after Besie please?

 

alannalynn Spam Master

alannalynn

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Also... don't like the push on Sili. I trust Sili.

-.- maybe you think I'm town, but who in their right minds actually trusts me? lol.

Well... thinking town ---> trust? Right?

alannalynn Spam Master

alannalynn

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Did Liz even mention that I was the first to strongly back lil's claim against Clov so Clov couldn't get away if he was a wolf?

Look at the iso. I pointed out exactly what you did with links to what you did.

 

You first said "oh right! vote clov"

 

Then you immediately backed off and unvoted sayign you weren't sure that lily was telling the truth.

 

Then you waffled back and forth coming up with reasons why lil might not be telling the truth.

 

Then you never actually managed to vote when it would have counted.

 

That's what happened. Show me where I'm wrong.

 

This feels like a lot of stretching to me Liz. If Wolf!Sili saw that there was a guilty on Clov, he knows that Clov is wolf and just votes and goes with it. There's no purpose at that point of pretending that Lily could be lying when we /KNEW/ we had even/odd cops. On the other hand, Town!Sili is suspicious and wants to double check before ~following the cop~. Where's the problem here, exactly?

Sili Quirrels Master

Sili Quirrels

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Sili is now attempting to play the reasonable townie, when all through out this game hes been anything but.

If it's between the two, I'm gonna

 

[v] Sili [/v]

Can you ask him to provide the quote? Because he clearly wont do it when I ask him, even though doing so gets him everything he wants and more.

 

 

I'm irritated for out of game reasons and also because I don't even know WHAT your cases on each other are

Well Lenlo's case seems to me to be I've been wrong about him and I don't push that hard for my reads.

 

--isn't one point of yours against Lenlo also that he hasn't been pushing hard enough for the Nin lynch? Also, weren't you pushing hard for Lenlo lynch until people like Hallia told you to back off and reconsider? That is an inconsistency.

 

Frankly he is correct. I haven't felt confident enough about various reads to defend them. And my town core is everyone's town core so there's been no need to defend people I feel strongly about.

 

--do you find his defense of people he believes are town lacking in any way?

 

However, he is incorrect when he says I went on about the wrongness of Dice's lynch, or if not incorrect, I at least think he is being misleading. I've never gone after people for voting Dice, merely joked about how I was right. I like being on the right side of history. Everyone does. But I did not make a big deal out of it.

 

--I think what he saw was you saying that Dice was acting like town dice, but not unvoting, and me asking you why the heck you were not voting Besie seemed to me to be an impetus for you moving your vote. By that point I was reading you also as town but it also bothered me that you said, nah, dice is town dice and you didn't try to lead the village off of him, as you tried to push for Lenlo's own head when you felt strongly about him.

 

My case on Lenlo is an amalgamation. tl;dr is he doesn't care about the game, only cares about defending himself.

 

--the bottom saying he has no reads but tried to shade people with words you call negative connotation, sure, it looks suspect.

 

(1) I can't recall many times this game Lenlo has posted content that was not omgus or bent around defending himself. His first catch up post he says later had no reads. Despite containing no read related information he uses a lot of negative connotative words, and it's up to you whether you believe he meant them innocuously.

Ive already made the argument that just because they are negative connotations to you doesnt mean they are to me. Not gonna rehash that.

 

--but I think this point is hard to even continue on or argue from either end because of subjectivity. What were those beginning comments to you, then, Lenlo?

 

(2) Lenlo's activity first surged when I said I had him as a wolf and tried to show why by giving my reaction to his catch-up post. He said I was wrong and misreading him. AS we later find out other people agreed with my interpretation so it couldn't have been just me, so I think lenlo either lacks self-awareness or is involved in revisionist history. Either way it is clear he wasn't very concerned with why i interpretted his post the way i did, but rather proving that i misread. His phrasing during this part treats me as town even though at other times he says he thinks i'm a wolf.

 

--Can you explain why it was clear to you that he wasn't concerned about the why? What did you see that made you think that? I liked his first catch up post and read it as gut town because I liked the thought process demonstrated behind it.

 

You called me a wolf soon after my catchup. Of course my activity would surge after I had caught up. Once again I will also explain that treating someone as a human with a working cerebellum, with the ability to talk and reason and discuss, does not equate to treating them as town. I wanted to talk with you and get your reads and discuss with you because, if you were wolf, doing so would hopefully give away or atleast lead to your teammates. You understand? You get information from the person you think is a wolf before you lynch them.

 

(3) Lenlo's behavior with dice was a little less ping-worthy because Dice was actually technically incorrect, I believe. My main problem right now is that as with me Lenlo's focus was on proving that Dice was lying or was incorrect or whatever. And frankly as time went on it certainly did seem like waht Dice meant was that Lenlo didn't fight for the lynch he wanted as hard as he could have. What dice was perhaps thinking was that the lynch lenlo wanted was a possibility but lenlo didn't fight for it, and that is ironically what lenlo's case on me boils down to.

Theres no technically. He was flat out wrong. What wold you have had me do with Dice? "Oh no Dice, its ok your wrong and constantly pushing this thing. Just rethink it mmmk?". No. I told him he was wrong, explained why, and then left. There was nothing else after that. Your also using alot of "Seem like", "perhaps", "possibility", your attempting to interpret something that was proven wrong as something that may still have merit.

 

--the word tells are legit, actually, because they leave room to wiggle and for people to back out of their ideas. It's much harder to make absolute statements and completely regret them. But I could see uncertainty and lack of conviction as a towny thing, because town lacks perfect info, and to be uncertain and to show it even if one believes in reads might be a good thing for certain players. Is Lenlo usually firm with his reads? If you're a meta player, that's what kind of read I'd like to hear as well.

 

And no, thats not my case. But thanks for trying to make it one.

 

Except I of course have proven that I do indeed care about this game. I merely don't pretend to have stronger reads than I do unless I do, and I don't want to try and persuade people to my side by forcing their hand.

 

(4) Lenlo's use of lying just recently implies he has some through line of dismissing pushes against him, either because that's who he is or because he is not town and values his life to an unreasonable degree (and not a pr because a pr actually does more to help the town win condition in my opinion).

This is simply you not knowing me. Even if I cant find wolves, if I can convince the rest of the town that im not a wolf, ive saved us a mislynch. As for valuing my life, I have already proven this isnt the case by saying "If you give me the quote and prove your case, I will vote myself for you". So if you prove it Sili, I will vote myself and you will get your lynch. All it takes is you sucking it up and giving me a quote. So your "Values life to an unreasonable degree" is shot right there.

 

Also what if I am a PR hmm? Again, you dont know me. Stop trying to make reads as if you do.

 

 

 

--lenlo, threatening to vote yourself is not a productive way to get people to not vote you. Also, if you really are a PR, why are you even saying this in the thread to Sili, who you think is a wolf?

 

 

man, this post is serial.

 

Looks practically charming for lenlo.

 

Sili Quirrels Master

Sili Quirrels

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Besie/Alanna - why are you so confident he's town? I don't disagree, necessarily, but I have a lot less confidence after looking at the argument he had with Lenlo. It seems more like he's pushing Len for not trying than because he legitimately thinks Lenlo is mafia.

 

If sili actually believs Len is scum, I feel like he ought to have just posted whatever it was Lenlo was asking for to shut him up.

 

Pretty sure Clov is incorrect. My tone is strong. So it looks good to me because Clov doesn't need to make up reasons to bus a teammate.

 

Interesting that he takes such a strong side between me and Lenlo. Might warrant more research.

 

Trying to read Lenlo based on Clov's and Wish's content instead of Lenlo's lol.

Guest

Guest

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Hey guys. I just got home. I'm going to miss dl very properly (it's 5.30 am for me)

Guest

Guest

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Meaning dl is 5.30 am for me.

 

I'm going to go to bed soon.

Sili Quirrels Master

Sili Quirrels

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Besie/Alanna - why are you so confident he's town? I don't disagree, necessarily, but I have a lot less confidence after looking at the argument he had with Lenlo. It seems more like he's pushing Len for not trying than because he legitimately thinks Lenlo is mafia.

 

If sili actually believs Len is scum, I feel like he ought to have just posted whatever it was Lenlo was asking for to shut him up.

Largely gut and good feels, maybe a little bit of volume bias. I haven't read the argument with Lenlo.... but also, Lenlo doesn't like being mafia, so can't lack of trying sometimes equate to wolfy behavior?

Bold: I'm not sure this is something Sili would ever do. Does not compute.

 

Laine feels good here. Just a tone read. Not much.

 

Plus, it feels like her and Clov are on different tracks almost? Clov trying to shade me. Laine trying to defend me. Laine hasn't read my back and forth with lenlo, but says my reason for wanting to lynch Lenlo is valid. That specific part seems genuine.

I said yesterday that I was willing to lynch Wish. She stumbled her way through the claim thing. I know Tina questioned her about it, and I think others (including me, but I'm actually not sure at this point) did as well. Either she gave no answer, or it wasnt convincong enough to make me feel good about her.

 

Her lack of grasp on the thread is a bad look to, considering her activity level. If somebody that's barely posted claims to be lost, that makes sense. But how do you spam the thread and still have no idea what's going on?

 

Her activity is a good sign. The fsct she's posting her thoughts without caring how it makes her look is good. i have no issue with her trying to fit people together.

 

But the actual content is just so bad.

This is how clov treated wish. it's just distancing.

Sili Quirrels Master

Sili Quirrels

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Hallia

Niniel

 

 

Sili

Chris

Laine

Wish

 

Besie

 

Lily

Kat

 

Liz

Darthe

 

Lenlo

 

Something like this? But most of my reasoning is super thin :(

Ok, I didn't get very far so far

 

Frankly everyone needs looking at in depth for any confidence

 

Wish was pretty emotionally manipulative in Ragnarok (purposefully or otherwise I don't know) and I'm seeing none of that here. Her logic/process is hard to follow, but she tries every time something is pointed out. She's also more aggressive/assertive than her more recent mafia game here - there's the potential for some steep learning curves between the games I've seen her play, so I don't know how much stock I can put in it.

 

Laine's relative quietness is a little concerning, but her post where she talked about me vs. Zander was more casually observant than most. Definitely follow through needed in terms of her Hallia question.

 

Chris is really tricky, I don't want to tinfoil because of bad reasons, but it's sort of hard not to. Seems to be feeling isolated in thread and I'm not sure what to make of that. Generally I've agreed with him all game (except Lenlo now lol). Dunno if I can ever be confident here

 

Sili has more or less maintained thread presence all game, is that enough? Page 20 or whenever looked pretty good

 

Besie is up so high, mostly because I don't like Darthe's push and because I remember her being more confident as mafia, I also know that Cory has pointed that out about her play and that she'll probably work on that :dry: I don't hate that her reads lists are generally different.

 

Lily is severely floating UTR at this point and needs to participate more.

 

Kat's Day 2 irked me, a lot of posts about none participation and apparent double standards :unsure:

 

Liz, nothing new from my last post - I don't understand her approach towards Seph if he was a mafia read and her vote on Dice makes little sense retroactively

 

Darthe's reads progression has seemed odd all game and I hated his early pop in/nudges

 

Lenlo, enough said. I think he's mafia but don't want to rush this

 

 

What didn't you understand about my approach towards Seph or Dice?

 

I was poking Dice from early day 1, and I clearly outlined the reasons that Seph was my top mafia read, and I said that Dice, Darthe and Lenlo were my top mafia suspects on D1 as well.

 

If Seph was your strongest mafia read from early game, I don't understand why you didn't do more to push him from earlier on. If he wasn't I don't know why you didn't do more to address him and try to resolve issues (before your case which was made and given when there was no time for him to address any of it before end of day).

 

Pretty sure the reason you gave at the time to vote Dice was competing trains and something about Chris's link with Niniel. And same answer to Lily, I currently have very little thread recall from about Wednesday to Friday last week.

 

 

 

Chris is because although I won't stop tinfoiling, he isn't mafia with Lenlo and I feel significantly worse about Lenlo (ironically Chris disagrees). Besides, the vote switch makes no sense to me as either alignment. As town, I don't see him having so little conviction in his read, as mafia I don't see why he would make himself look that bad on purpose.

 

I did explain this before. The way I play is to send out probes, poke people, wait for the reactions, then jump on what comes out. I was constantly behind in the thread and with the volume of the thread and with the lack of quote and mentions notifications (which I'm used to at PerC) I couldn't even see if anyone was responding to the probes I was sending out.

 

Like the SK question with Sili. I'd actually already decided that if the Sili/Seph argument was mafa/town, that Sili was more likely to be the town in that fight. But I still had some tinfoil going about Sili because I saw that he had just won a game as SK. So I was trying to test things to see how both he and Seph (and others) would react to the possibility of Sili being SK being floated. As far as I know only Sili responded,

 

I was basing my read on Seph off of his responses to other people in the thread while I was fighting to catch up.

 

As for Dice, I was poking him from D1 and also hardly ever got a chance to interact with him in real time in the thread. But I said from D1 he was one of my scummiest reads. I didn't vote him to form a competing wagon, I was appealing to people who were saying that he and Niniel were likely teamed that if they thought that then they should be voting Dice as a competing wagon. I wasn't as convinced that Niniel was scum as other people were, which is why I unvoted her when i realized my test vote could get her killed before I had a chance to test my theory. And the point I was at in the thread, she was L-1 from getting lynched and I was afraid that if people didn't back off of her she'd be hammered before anything could be tested further.

 

Doesn't sound like Liz was saying I could be mafia because I won as third party. Seems she's saying she wanted to know how people reacted to the notion I could be a SK for... who knows why. She probably tries to explain it somewhere but it hasn't stuck in my mind. That doesn't matter. I'm just pointing out that she doesn't say that playing as an SK means I'll play better as mafia even though she said that a few pages ago when it was convenient.

alannalynn Spam Master

alannalynn

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Good grief this Liz/Sili exchange is hard to read

Is it my fault?

 

Partially. The stacked quotes have got to end. >_>

 

Liza coming off very defensive in some of her posts, but I'm not sure if it's frustration that she's getting turned away from her pushes or genuine defensiveness because she knows she's wrong?

Sili Quirrels Master

Sili Quirrels

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Good grief this Liz/Sili exchange is hard to read

Is it my fault?

 

Partially. The stacked quotes have got to end. >_>

 

Liza coming off very defensive in some of her posts, but I'm not sure if it's frustration that she's getting turned away from her pushes or genuine defensiveness because she knows she's wrong?

 

I would kill for your tone as a wolf. Ridiculous. Makes me want to believe you're town but I don't think tone is a valid reason after I townread Wish for tone.

Katiora Veteran

Katiora

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[v]Liz [/v] just in case I don't get a chance to vote later... I feel pretty comfortable in my vote. 

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