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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

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Talmanes

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It was a very complex book. That was why I reread the first before reading the second. Both of those one right after another though made me feel like some lighter reading for sure.

 

I picked up almost the whole series of Dresden Files at a thrift shop so I thought I would give that a try.

Dresden Files is a great series. The best fantasy set in the human (ish?) world that I have read.

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Funnily enough the Alloy of Law one is just a spinoff that will have four books. There's supposed to be two other trilogies still IIRC.

The next one is scheduled for after Stormlight 3 and I think is 1980's techwise.

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It was a very complex book. That was why I reread the first before reading the second. Both of those one right after another though made me feel like some lighter reading for sure.

 

I picked up almost the whole series of Dresden Files at a thrift shop so I thought I would give that a try.

Dresden Files is a great series. The best fantasy set in the human (ish?) world that I have read.

 

 

I should really pick that one up.

 

Funnily enough the Alloy of Law one is just a spinoff that will have four books. There's supposed to be two other trilogies still IIRC.

The next one is scheduled for after Stormlight 3 and I think is 1980's techwise.

 

It's actually the second of four trilogies I believe, and the Alloy of Law is the prologue to the second trilogy, which sort of happened by accident. If I'm not mistaken.

 

What is Mistborn going to end at? Science fiction instead of fantasy?

 

Probably with some crossover. It's an interesting idea though: What happens if the fantasy world discovers gunpowder, steam power, electricity, etc?

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I really liked Mistborn but I didn't like Alloy of Laws that much.

 

I preferred Mistborn so far, but the characters from Alloy of Law are sometimes really good imo. Wax, Wayne and Marasi for certain are all awesome in their own way at least sometimes.

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Probably with some crossover. It's an interesting idea though: What happens if the fantasy world discovers gunpowder, steam power, electricity, etc?

Are you just referring to Mistborn world here? Because otherwise, you seem to have a strange assumption that all fantasy takes place in medieval worlds predating these inventions. There're several existing fantasy series based on other times and places, most of which I haven't read but some of them I mean to. Brian McClellan's Powder Mage trilogy, taking place with late 1700s tech, sounds interesting.

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I myself am more into more medieval type fantasy and so definitely liked the original Mistborn trilogy better, but I have enjoyed the second trilogy as well.

 

It is very interesting to see how differently technology develops when you have prevalent magic systems. There was a comment somewhere in the second trilogy about them actually being way behind on tech because they had it to easy.

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Probably with some crossover. It's an interesting idea though: What happens if the fantasy world discovers gunpowder, steam power, electricity, etc?

Are you just referring to Mistborn world here? Because otherwise, you seem to have a strange assumption that all fantasy takes place in medieval worlds predating these inventions. There're several existing fantasy series based on other times and places, most of which I haven't read but some of them I mean to. Brian McClellan's Powder Mage trilogy, taking place with late 1700s tech, sounds interesting.

 

 

More to fantasy in general. I feel like it is really hard to have a world with magic built into it that is in a future age, because it's really hard to figure out what exactly would be different from our world because of the magic. I know that sounds weird, but let me use a Wheel of Time example.

 

In tSR, Rand lives part of the lives of some of his Aiel ancestors, and among other things, he sees a few aircraft, and I believe (though I'm not sure) that the BWB mentions them too. However, when we get to the later books, mostly ToM and aMoL, we see that there are "travelling grounds" where people open Gateways from and to to allow for long distance travelling in an instant.

 

Now of course, not everyone who wants to go somewhere can simply walk up there and ask for a Gateway, because it'd become far too crowded. But then again, have you ever taken a plane? Counting the time you're waiting in lines, in the aircraft until it can take off, the time in the air, the time until you can land, and the time back on the ground, you really have to travel at least some 500 km, maybe even more, until it's worth taking an aircraft over a car. So really, it's only for the long distance, which drastically reduces the amount of traffic. I would say, to levels that channelers can keep up with it.

 

So why is that airplane there in the Age of Legends? Not because you need it to travel; Gateways can do that too and are much easier in comparision as they don't require any technology. It's there because Robert Jordan created a world of "technology + magic" and figured that there should be an equivalent to an airplane and he simply made an airplane that works with use of channeling. Logical, until you start with a medieval age world that has magic, and start developing new stuff from that. Then, channeling grounds appear and planes don't have any use anymore except flying being awesome.

 

So basically, what I meant, is that most worlds would make mistakes that don't even look like them because it's what we're used to, but because Brandon Sanderson builds up his modern/future era world out of a medieval era world, he'll be avoiding quite a few of those mistakes. Now, I'm not saying the mistakes make the book worse - really, I did not realize the uselessness of airplanes in the Age of Legends until I started thinking about them versus the travelling grounds - but they're still there, so they are not actually a realistic depiction of a modern technology world that has magic.

 

I hope that all made sense.

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That is a really good post on the subject. It can indeed be really difficult to work with technology and magic like that and J think BS tries to make it realistic for how a world/society would develop given the use of magic. I like how in the second set of Mistborn you have both scientists working with magic and technology.

 

In Stormlight though you have some scientists working pretty much only on magic and almost no emphasis on actual technology. It will be really interesting to see how/if technology plays any part in the story.

 

To bring it back to WoT it was a similar set up. Aes Sedai were looking at more ways to use the Power because so much knowledge was lost. You don't see a whole lot of science being involved at all until Rand builds the schools besides maybe the Illuminators. The AoL wounds like it had emphasis on both magic and standard technology.

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I hadn't really thought about the technology and magic in fantasy - that was fascinating! :D 

 

I had, but then again, that's because I do a lot of writing myself, and you come across the problem when you start thinking about "a world like ours but with magic" in any other way than "magic appears out of nowhere".

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That's something I really like about Sanderson's books - his magic actually has rules and consequences, and things are solved without magic as often as with.

 

Imo that should always be a requirement for magic, though I have to say that his magic system is without doubt the clearest of all. I mean, Wheel of Time's actually really consistent too, but far harder to understand. For example, it isn't mentioned anywhere in the books that the strength of females is divided into 21 ranks, nor does it show exact amounts of strengths or does it explain why certain powers are used in certain weaves (even though I'm pretty sure that indeed those have reasons behind them too).

 

I for myself am spending a lot of time on magic too... It's really hard to, on one hand, make a magic system that really feels "magical", but on the other hand be a simple addition to science without breaking any rules. I do believe I have an opening right now though. In fact, I even have an opening that allows me to create "less clear" magic out of the system I created to be useable for absolutely anything if you have enough strength/patience.

 

That includes creating a new world.

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That's true, though I have to say I never really thought about the rules and mechanics of magic until I started on Sanderson - I knew they were there, but didn't dwell on them much. 

What sort of a world are you building, if I may ask?

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Yeah, Sanderson is a great writer and even offers new and starting writers, or just those interested in trying it out, a great amount of information on his podcast, website and in person. One of the things I enjoy most about all of Brandon's series is that he almost always follows his three rules of Magic, making things easy for the reader to understand while setting limits and restrictions on what can be done.

 

 

FIRST LAW - An author's ability to solve conflict with magic is directly proportional to how well the reader understands said magic.

If characters can solve a problem by using magic, the reader should be made to understand how that magic works. Otherwise, the magic constitudes a 'deus ex machine.' Ideally, the magic should be explained to the reader before it is used to resolve a conflict. Much like a sword or a large sum of money, magic is a useful resource. Understanding the resources available to a character helps the reader understand the character's actions. It avoids questions like, "Where did he get that?" or "How did he do that?"

 

He breaks types of magic into two categories, Soft & Hard, with a grey zone between them. Soft Magic, which has no clearly defined rules, should not be used solve major problems, although it may create them.

 

Soft Magic (Examples include J.R.R. Tolkien and George R.R. Martin)

Magic is included in the stories to create a sense of wonder. It is mysterious, awe-inspiring, and unpredictable.

Magic is not governed by rules, limitations, or strict definitions. The the capabilities of the magic are a mystery to the reader, and to most of the characters.

 

Hard Magic

Magic is a plot device that writers can use to enhance story and character.

Magic is a tool that characters can use to solve their problems.

The capabilities and limitations of magic are precisely defined. Skilled magic-users are often those with an advanced understanding of magic's underlying principles.

 

Brandon offers J.K. Rowling as an example of his grey zone between the two, noting that her magic has specific rules which are followed however the reader is never sure of their full capabilities.

 

 

 

SECOND LAW - The limitations of a magic system are more interesting than its capabilities. What the magic can't do is more interesting than what it can.

The limits and cost of magic are a source of conflict. They provide challenges for the characters to solve, and problems to overcome. If magic can simply and easily solve any problem, a story becomes boring. But when magic has a cost, or when it can only be used in certain situations, it becomes a source of dramatic tension.

Brandon also proposes that limitations can make a magic system more original and exciting. Almost every conceivable magical power has already been used in fiction, but applying new limitations can make a power seem novel again. For example, all the powers of Allomancy can be found in popular comic books, but the need to burn ingested metals is an intriguing and inventive twist.

Limitations can be categorized as:

Definition, what the magic cannot do.

Weakness, what the power is vulnerable to.

Cost, the inherent cost of using magic.

Ability, who can use magic, and how they acquire the distinction.

 

 

THIRD LAW - Expand on what you already have, before adding something new.

This rule is designed to keep systems of magic from sprawling out of control, while ensuring that magic systems are as deeply developed as possible. "A brilliant magic system for a book is less often one with a thousand different powers and abilities -- and is more often a magic system with relatively few powers that the author has considered in depth."

Magic is an integral part of worldbuilding. A magic system interacts with many different parts of the world -- domestic life, industry, warfare, religion. How does it affect these things? How might it shape cultures and social mores?  Magic can be used in many different ways, solving problems. Realistically, people will try and explore every possibility if they are given the magic. 

Brandon offers several specific recommendations:

Extrapolate, think about how the changes you've made to the world will impact the world as a whole.

What happens when a wizard converts to Christianity?

What happens to warfare when a magic can create food out of thin air, enabling much more mobile armies?

What happens to gender dynamics if magic causes all of the men who use it to go insane?

Interconnect, tie powers, cultures and themes together.

How can I connect powers so that they work together?

Streamline

Look at cultures, magics and characters and ask, "Where can I combine these?"

It's better to create one magic system with multiple uses or interpretations rather than 10 separate, specific magic systems.

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That's true, though I have to say I never really thought about the rules and mechanics of magic until I started on Sanderson - I knew they were there, but didn't dwell on them much.

What sort of a world are you building, if I may ask?

 

So yeah, imo this is quite fine as it looks like, but I suppose that some of the things may be seen as a spoiler (I suppose you could read from this wheter the good guys win or not? Heck, I'm not even sure if you can, but whatever), so I'm putting it between spoiler tags to make sure you thought about the possibility.

 

A warning beforehand: I tend to reflect on and change what I'm working on quite often, but currently it's standing as this (and in general I do have to say the changes get more and more minor over the years):

 

The story starts in a world without magic, with a Roman Empire-like empire ruling about half of the world. Technology level will be Roman or a medieval, and there's a single church. The main character is part of a powerful noble family, and there's a bit of scheming going on, but during everything, she starts to have a special "dream" - first she gets it once, then it starts coming back more and more often until it's there every night. This dream is not like a normal dream, as she feels fully awake, though she still has a slight "I'm dreaming" feeling, and it lasts until she wakes up. This world that she dreams about has six different races (together called "velai",) but no humans. Gradually, she explores more of the world, when at a point she has to flee in the waking world. While on the run, she discovers she can spend her time dreaming without her body needing anything, and she already knows how to control her time dreaming, and then she decides, at some point, to fully start living in the dream.

 

Now that's as far as the "trying to get people hyped" part, and now we'll get to the world itself.

 

The main character can, in the dream, influence the world around her like you can normally when realizing it's a dream - for example, she uses this to blend in with the velai despite being a human. There is one general magic system that is the base of everything - it's what the god used to create the world - and which has no power limit. It is a tree-like magic system - you start at the base, called "navna", and then start going outwards like the branches of a tree, though for some things you're going to need several prior branches. It's been made to encompass our current knowledge of particles and everything - navna branches out into a "physical" and a "mental" part, then the "physical" part branches into matter and energy, while "mental" (I'm pretty sure there's a better word for that by the way, but whatever) branches into soul, light and magnetism. Some of the particles are known in our science (think of light, which are fotons) while some are not (think of the soul particle). Now, the knowledge of the particles exactly isn't known, but this is the base. From those five parts, you can specialize and combine until you can do anything you want. A bit like the One Power, I suppose.

 

Anyways, a power with no limit. Yeah, that's going to need to be restrained in some other way, and it indeed is. It's only useable by humans (so not by the other velai) and it's only accessible from the world that the main character dreams about (spoiler: the dream's as real as the real world. Who would've thought?), where there currently are no humans. Also, and this is actually going to be the most important part, it is possible to create a kind of magic from this magic system by adding barriers in the magic system in various ways when you have a controlled environment (which means a soul or world you're creating) or by limiting talent or power. This is what afore-mentioned god did for the velai in the dream world. They all have a number of mages with limited power that can use only a certain kind of magic depending on the vela (singular of velai) that uses the magic, those being shapeshifting, fire magic, life magic (notice life magic can be quite deadly), summoning and weapon magic. Weapon magic needs a bit of explanation, as the name doesn't tell everything. It can be used to manipulate iron (by things like pushing or pulling, that is; you won't be able to do a whole lot of smithing with weapon magic) or to move fast through shadows, which basically means that the users of weapon magic are like mythical fighters that move at incredible speeds and dance around the fight dodging any incoming swords and arrows while hitting all vitals.

 

So, in short, at a point in time, it (of course) happens that humans do start getting into contact with navna, and then there's storyline, some more storyline, and after the storyline the god reigns in the navna by only allowing some people to use it, and from that point on it's simply a plot device that spawns new worlds to create stories in on demand.

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