the Hunt for the Dragon Reborn [Standard Mafia] Game Over town wins

[Calder]

Hey IR

 

You town?

Nope. Scummin up a storm.

[Calder]

People commenting on Shad's perceived eagerness to play. Is this unusual for him? He was more reserved as the devil in Clov's game that I played, but his in thread actions werent really all that important (compared to a normal game). So curious.

[Calder]

People I wouldn't lynch:

Calder

Zander

Calder

Turin

Calder

 

Lets get'em:

Not Calder

Dice

Thane

That dwarf in my book club who steals my opinions

[Niniel]

 

 

Really? Is it based on anything that the rest of us can see?

 

Sooh reacts. She asks him why but it looks like she accuses him more for his read than she actually asks why.

 

 

*snip*

 

These are all early posts and maybe they don´t mean anything. I just want to keep them here because there might be some kind of connection between people.

 

Turin - looked like he wanted to start the game somewhere. It´s usually a good sign.

 

Sooh - I find her answer strange. Kind of an accuse before questioning his motives. Defending Shad?

 

Zander - Didn´t question Turin at first but actually did so later. That looks better.

 

Hallia - Assumed she knew Turin´s reason. If she turns up mafia then it could mean Turin is mafia as well. (I don´t have a read on any of them and this is a very weak connection but just wanted to point it out since I saw it.)

 

 

These are the only things that I noticed that hasn´t got to do with Sooh/Dice that I found interesting, even if it doesn´t actually give me any reads right now.

 

 

I think I understand all the points from Dice, Zander, Shad, Calder and Cory.

 

Zander: Dice corrected him without suspecting him to be wolf. Maybe because Dice is wolf himself.

Cory: The same as Zander + before, Dice has choosen something to focus on to seem involved as mafia

Calder: He would himself defend someone for non game reasons if he was mafia, to look better.

Shad: Dice doesn´t comment on anything else.

 

 

The first three points are interesting and I will try to remember them. I think Dice would defend Sooh as both alignments so it´s null for me so far. I have Cory´s second point and Shad´s in my head as Dice continues to post. As he said, he had only a few posts and this what was what the focus.

You're really reading way too much into my comment here. It was no accusation at all, I just wanted to know what his reasons were and if they were anything other than a gut feeling. 

 

In my later reads post I gave Shad a slight scum read. How am I defending him exactly?

 

 

Okay. 

 

Right, I had already forgotten that. I just focused on the posts that I quoted. Sorry. Too tired to play. (And I´m on work now, so I shouldn´t really play anyway.)

[Thane Vakarian]

im annoyed Thane.

 

no wolfin. why? cause my pm says im not.

 

 

you?

I get that you're annoyed. It can be annoying being accused when town and nobody seemingly gets what you really mean. Happens to me all the time. *hands beer* Now, let's continue the game, alright? We'll figure things out

 

Just getting ready to try to get caught up. Saw this and had to say I really don't like this post.

Dice, buddy. How are you doing?

 

Are you a wolf this game? Why not?

Can someone tell me why I don't?

 

 

 

This is the kind of post that leads to the clique thought. afaik Thane hasn't been mush into the thread aside from the jokey posts at the start of the game. So it reads EXACTLY as what Sooh was talking about. Thane comes in and buddies Z, Cory and Shad. Then his interaction with Dice is the opposite. His stance seems to be that He is convinced that Dice is mafia (for bad reasons IMO) and is in effect trying to get Dice to prove a negative when it should be more on Thane to show why Dice is mafia if that is his take. 

 

 

 

Okay. back in a bit

Dude... bolded in the spoiler. You got it wrong. I'm not at all convinced he is mafia. That's what YOU make of it. 

 

Expanding somewhat on my Thane impression.

 

 

 

Zander Cory can we be v/v/v scumslaughter apocalypse?

 

Jokey? town reading (buddying?)

 

I wanna keep Cory, that's for sure.. so... either you or Shad, let gameplay decide

 

Best case: we can do V/V/V/V Makes hunting easier, no?

More of the same. Note to self Has Corey as town read. Z and shad as maybe. Then reconsiders as both maybe okay.

 

People are saying these are just jokes but IMO if it is in thread it is valid for dissection. Basically there is nothing from Thane aside from the fluffy stuff until his "restart" post. 1)

 

So.... let's restart the game!

 

First post!!!

 

Hiyas all

 

Now, let's hunt some wolves, right?

 

ok, now for some thoughts of mine... it's a silly little thought i have, but i get the feeling (<- important word there) that we just might have all town players at the moment. Don't crucify me for that statement later if i'm wrong, but you may worship me if it's true

Everyone is town. Something to keep in mind if Thane should flip mafia later on. 2)

 

Gut, for now, says:

 

Zander good

Hallia good

Sooh frustrated townie

Turin looking ok, but still cautious

Shad alright; for now

Cory (Wanna make Zan jealous)

snap reads that I was asking about, I think...

his early three buddies are still where they were apparently. Somewhat odd to me that his Shad has a caveat. Can you show/say what is giving you pause on Shad? What is your actual Cory read? wub isn't really alignment indicative to me.  

Turin read also couched. Why are you cautious of me? 3)

Dice, buddy. How are you doing?

 

Are you a wolf this game? Why not?

This sounds like you are mafia reading Dice. When did this read develop? 4)

 

Hi Tina

 

looking forward to your thoughts

quoted just to show the difference in tone between Dice and others. 

 

 

 

a few questions inside

1) All fluff, or a lot of it, is normal for me D1. Deal with it. You should know that after the games we did. 

2) Ah yes... lol.. right... ok... seriously?

3) Cautious of you because you can hide from others as a wolf. I pinned you last game, so I know what I'm looking for. 

4) As i said, that's your interpretation. I never stated i had a wolfread on him. Why are you putting things in other peoples posts that are not there? hmm...

 

People I wouldn't lynch:

Calder

Zander

Calder

Turin

Calder

 

Lets get'em:

Not Calder

Dice

Thane

That dwarf in my book club who steals my opinions

some reasons for that would be appreciated... to share with others... get to know what you think... and all...

[Turin Turambar]

Cory (primarily about the Sooh post):

 

 

 

 

 

What's funny is this game actually reminded me (intro wise) to the Star Wars Thrawn game that was the first game I played here. I got rassled in by Despot and Tom and SickPuppets; the first like four pages were just me and Tom and SickPuppets joking because nobody else had checked n. Then the entire first half of the game was everyone accusing us of excluding people and reading eachother villager because we were some in-group game saboteurs who just existed to leave other people out.

The game ended in me lynching Wolf!Tom and everyone apologizing for making dumb assumptions.

I remember that. Tom was maf. You were 3p, and sp was town. I was suss of tom and Despo(who ended up being pocketed town)

You think it is more common or less to have mafia try to join into a "town core" early?

 

 

I don't think a town core forms in the first 5 pages of a game. It takes battle for something like that to be really established, and most of what's happened so far has been jokes amongst friends.

 

If this is specifically about Shad and Zander, I think both of them do what they did in either role, so I'm not really reading into it. They'll be far easier to read later d1 anyway.

 

But the "feels" are strong and initial feels take some work to get past. In that game you resisted going hard at Tom until you were pretty much certain that it was him. You helped lynch him finally and it probably did win the game for town (and yourself by extension). Psychology makes people want to not be wrong about initial reactions. It lets people get cleared in error.  

 

How about Thane? he more likely to join in as either alignment?

 

I'm home. I hate to bring up that post again, but we are going to talk about it at length because it's the first massively alignment indicative post in the game.

Maybe it is just me but I don't really see it that way. I don't think that your breakdown makes that point either. 

 

 

Sorry if this is out of place but I noticed it while digging up these posts. SQUIRREL!!!

 

thats the problem zander   you are voting her for something that isnt alignment indicative at all.

 

I obv disagree.

 

Your defense of Sooh is noted.

 

I think it most certainly could be alignment indicative.

 

Also I find it strange that you dislike my vote but arent voting me.

 

 

 

 

For reference, here's literally the last game I played with Zander (which you were in):

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/96361-worlds-end-mafia-town-wins-comprehensively/?p=3582230

That's post 19 - he jokingly cleared me and then tinfoiled on me a whole bunch of times on d1 and actually tried to start something with me during n1.

I could go back, but this is something he's also done with Laine and Shad and etc. etc.

He does it all the time in both roles.

Zander gonna Zander imo

lolololololol

Right now what are your snap reads of everyone? Just say who.you legit think is town or mafia. Feel free to leave out the nulls. I'm curious.

Right now I will say I am suspicious of all the people that say things like "hopefully we will read each other right" or things like that.

Hallia, Shad, Thane jumping into the 4 v's.

I actually lean town on Sooh for the controversial post. I just don't see her making that post as mafia. Too likely to draw negative attention.

I think rest null. But only on phone so might have missed something.

WHy do you expect people to give snap reads atp Turin?

I find these snap reads weird atp, well I find snap reads this early strange in general.

But thats just me maybe.

I disagree irt Sooh, im not saying shes a wolf atp, but this type of play doesnt necessarily make her Towny imo. Garnering negative early and flipping it like this [ucg]COULD [/u]be played off as AtE which different players interrupt differently.

I'm not sure how to read that other tHan you saying she isn't a wolf. Are you saying that you just aren't sure?

 

 

Dude read all my posts.

 

 

Dice interaction: I doubt that Zander really believes that disagreeing about a vote means that you should be voting that person. People make poor decisions all the time.

Zander can you explain why you think it was alignment indicative? 

 

Back to the vote reasoning, I find it odd that there are multiple "could"s in your reasoning. I mean anything could be a shield. in the post above you say that you aren't saying that she IS A WOLF, but the play doesn't make her townie. Doesn't that make her null? So why vote a null action? 

 

Okay back to the "controversial post' fallout...

 

So here is our impetus:

 

Zander, you posted his name in blue next to yours. Now if that's a joke then just say so and I'll let it go. 

 

 

 

 

For everyone: 

So many of these mafia games lately have started by people who are really excited about playing together, and the rest of us are not important what so ever. I dislike this behavior intensely, because in being exclusively interested in what that one person you're excited about is saying you're also immediately excluding a bunch of people.

 

Player 1 posts, immediate reaction: Oh Player, let's town together! We're going to wreck all the wolves and it will be awesome.

 

Player 2 posts, immediate reaction: Oh yeah? Is that what the wolves told you to say? Are you a wolf?

 

It creates an environment where some people, only based on who they are, are received in a so much better way than others. 

 

 

This post is going to be spoilered in several spots with titles to make it more easy to navigate, because it is going to be a dense, dense post with a lot of dumb corky words. Be warned this is probably going to be the most epic trashpost of my werewolf career and I'm embarassed to make it. Expect tildes in front of words as per usual Corky caveats where he tries to estimate full words instead of numbers.

 

SECTION 1: "Worlds"

 

 

This terminology in Mafia goes by many other names but I've always referred to it as "worlds" and when you see me talking about "There are no worlds where x does y..." type posts I'm referencing the concept of worlds.

It's a very easy concept and something all of us use: when you are looking at a post, what are the reasons they could have posted it as a villager? What are the reasons they could have posted it as a mafia?

 

One of the major things I do is do this post-by-post and see who has done the most stuff that makes sense for a villager to do.

 

I am having a gigantic problem with this post the more I think about it. It's really very simple:

My initial reaction was "If Sooh posted this as a wolf, it's pretty emotionally manipulative. She's not a particularly emotionally manipulative wolf, so she's probably a villager." One thing that's very apparent in the post is that Sooh is upset; there's not much of a question on whether that is genuine or not - it is. She's not faking that.

 

However, in terms of reading alignments, this was a bad initial reaction to that post but I could see other people coming to it. I wonder if it's specifically what Turin was thinking.

I think one thing we fail to remember sometimes is that wolves get annoyed / upset for plenty of REAL reasons and therefore it's not always a ~Nolder-type situation where you have to consider whether or not they are faking it to try and get townread. Thinking about it more, I eventually came to this:

 

Here is a world that makes sense to me where Sooh is a wolf:

 

Sooh pops into the thread making a post about being excited after seeing some excitement from villagers (specifically me/Zander/Shad). Eventually Village!Thane and Village!Hallia join that mix, and suddenly there's this odd town core forming of Me/Zander/Shad/Thane/Hallia that Sooh is not in for reasons she doesn't really understand. In a 13er, having five villagers clear eachother immediately is basically a death sentence; the game has become nearly impossible to win only four pages in. Upset that people are just clearing eachother for what seems like ~no reason, she reacts negatively to the thread and questions us on why we are doing it. When it's made more apparent that things were less than serious, she realizes her mistake and tries to have the issue dropped.

 

Here is a world that makes sense to me where Sooh is a villager:

 

[doesn't exist]

 

This is why I need follow-up to this, because I do not understand why she would post that as a villager. Dice brushed up on the fact that there are some notable "DM bromances", but Sooh has played with all of us several times, is an inclusive and beloved member of our Mafia community, and I think if nothing else trusts me to be objective. Could I see an outsider making that post frustrated at the start of the game as a villager? Yes, totally. Sooh? It doesn't make sense to me. I can't understand it, so the first world makes a ton more sense to me: she's just a wolf.

 

 

SECTION II: "Ranges"

 

 

And here is where I struggle intently with reading Sooh.

 

"Ranges" is the ~simple idea of apply meta to a player on a personal level. IE, there are things specific players are more likely to do as villagers and more likely to do as wolves. The now infamous "dice homersimpson post" is a good example of this, even if dice shed that meta like a year ago, but we're looking specifically at player habits.

 

One of the major differences in Sooh's play in both roles is that her village game has a strong emotional component that her wolfgame lacks. This is a relatively common tell for most people, but Sooh typically does not try to get "out of trouble" by throwing a fit because she understands that's a negative thing for the game in general.

 

I remember very specifically when she was getting lynched d1 in House of Cards she started to creep more and more into her village range with her responses and I felt really terrible about the lynch because as much as she was being pushed by literally the whole game and had a 12-player wagon in a 13-player game her responses were not akin to her wolf game.

 

If I were to specifically read that Sooh post knowing her ranges, I would guess she's a villager on it alone. She's more likely as a villager to get ticked off about something relatively ~harmless like that.

 

Unfortunately, this segment of read conflicts with the "Worlds" segment, so I am struggling immensely on getting a correct read.

 

"Mixed" indeed.

 

 

SECTION III: "Afterword"

 

 

First off, thank you for reading this terrible trashpost in which I say a lot of words and do not come up with a meaningful conclusion, but that post is something I want you to think about. Dice has attempted to explain the world in which Sooh is a villager making that post, but I don't buy it. Further input from anyone or Sooh is appreciated.

And in terms of me having "bromances" or a "clique" in Mafia games here, let me say the following:

I came here as a Mafia player and nothing but; I did not know any of you, I did not play with any of you before barring Despot, and I did not have any real impression of this forum.

 

The only reason I am still here today is my immense love for the player base here.

 

And honestly, if you meet somebody like Hallia (the sweetest person probably in the entire world) or Laine or BFG or Zander or Shad or literally basically everyone that plays here and do not realize "wow, this is a really frickin' neat person, I should try to befriend them", you are crazy. That goes for you too, Poot, and a whole bunch of people I didn't name. Yes, the games have gotten more volume intense and competitive at times, but I like playing here because we're all friends and that's what makes this game great.

 

So if at times I seem biased or weird because I am friends with someone in the game, please consider the following:

A) I will not allow my personal feelings to interfere with me reads and that's something I've strongly spoken about in many games. See: me chastising Zander for misreading Besie in the WE game, etc. My urge to win the game far surpasses any personal feelings I have.

 

B) I'd be an idiot for not being friends with most of the players here. You don't throw away something that awesome.

 

The conclusion is that it is mixed:

 

WORLDS: I do see a world in which Town!Sooh makes that post. you referenced it right in your post. I had a bit of a similar reaction and that was where my post asking about wolves in the thread came from. It also shows a bit of inconsistency as people are being treated differently when there is not enough game related material to justify it. 

 

RANGES: This is telling you that she is more likely town. which do you think is a stronger, more valid read.

 

AFTERWORD: Personal Cory is for Cory personally to digest. I don't doubt your integrity wrt game. 

 

And as for the "wolf world" I wanted to add that I've seen this specific situation play out before.

 

There was a game Tress ran called Wind In The Door where Tom was a wolf and came into the thread immediately upset because me/Monstr/Tina/Pral/someone else (can't remember) were all villagers and village reading each other for "silly" reasons and he immediately starting talking in wolfchat about how he already felt the game was locked because a bunch of villagers united early. Very simple - wolves can get irate when they feel the deck is stacked against them, which I could see Sooh feeling in a specific situation where all or most of the early posters are villagers gladhanding eachother.

 

In that game, Tom managed to get himself out of an early hole but their team did lose pretty comprehensively, so he wasn't wrong.

 

I know that Tom and Sooh are very, very different players but I got weird deja vu over it this game.

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. As town I can see Sooh having a similar response to what I did in thinking that somewhere in that pile of "backslapping" there was a wolf trying to get into the town core. Maybe even more than one. Look at it this way, a Town!Sooh sees a bunch of HIGH VOLUME POSTERS getting cozy and then when she questions it she gets different levels of blowback from the entire group. 

 

It was more for the rest of the game than you, if you have no intent to ever explain and just want it dropped.

 

There will be plenty to discuss with time. Turin has said some stuff, enough has happened where you could probably scratch at a read or two even if they aren't super confident.

 

If you were forced to make 3 reads right now, what would they be?

My 3  Shad mafia, Thane maf lean, Tina town lean. Sooh slight town lean. Cory mixed. Zander mixed. Hallia slight maf lean. 

 

okay more than 3 but there you go. 

 

And you know damn well I only want to lynch you if you are a wolf.

 

If you are a villager, figure out some way of making it apparent so I don't have to lose sleep and go through the corky guilt-ridden mental breakdown that occurs when I lead a mislynch. I'm asking as a favor at this point.

This is the same proving a negative thing I didn't like from Thane earlier. 

 

 

I was specifically asking Sooh but feel free to answer Zanderino

 

 

Im not super confident on anyone right now tbqh.

 

Gun To head

 

Thane looks ok.

 

You look ok

 

Hallia looks ok.

 

And this is like 51% sure right now so dont hold me to this.

 

How about Shad??? 

 

I'll do you better, here's four:

 

Turin middling v

Thane light v

Zander light v

Hallia light v

 

Off the top of my head.

 

I reserve the right to change this later as these are all players I read far better with more volume, but this is my inkling.

Same question irt Shad.

 

Oh I get what Sooh was saying now, about 10 hours later:

 

I think she was talking about me asking her if she was a wolf in response to her introduction.

 

Sooh if you are offended that I said that specifically to you (I think I said it to Hallia too?) it's literally just something I say all the time for no reason and is not at all a push on you. You started at the same place everyone else did on my list. I'm just a weird person who pesters now and then.

Here Cory says that he now understands the second half of Sooh's post. Do you see how that could cause Town!Sooh to make that "clique" post?

 

 

 

 

I like that Cory seems to be trying to work out Sooh's alignment. I'm not sure if I totally believe it. Cory did you vote Sooh? I don't remember tbh.

 

What is your case on Dice? I will try to look at it but am running out of playing time for the day.

 

As an aside, the people that haven't posted much really need to get on with it.  

[Thane Vakarian]

People commenting on Shad's perceived eagerness to play. Is this unusual for him? He was more reserved as the devil in Clov's game that I played, but his in thread actions werent really all that important (compared to a normal game). So curious.

He's usually quite eager to play, depending on the people he's playing with. Wouldn't put that as alignment indicative for him tbh. His level of interaction and bite however, are very much so. So, looking forward to seeing more from him. 

[Turin Turambar]

People commenting on Shad's perceived eagerness to play. Is this unusual for him? He was more reserved as the devil in Clov's game that I played, but his in thread actions werent really all that important (compared to a normal game). So curious.

For me it isn't his eagerness to play. He does like to mafia and IMO he is happier to be mafia than town. What is really pinging me is that he seemed to work a bit too hard to get into the "backslapping" fest that started the game. 

 

Dice, buddy. How are you doing?

 

Are you a wolf this game? Why not?

The fact that you phrased your question in this manner leads me at least to think you were predisposed to thinking that dice was in fact mafia. The second question is superfluous if you have a null read on him. 

 

so what is your actual current read on dice? Reasoning? 

[Turin Turambar]

BFG, can I fix the failed spoiler? 

[Cory Caboose]

Morning

 

I like Tina's catchup

 

Still processing dice's response

[Cory Caboose]

Turin I did not vote Sooh

 

That's not a path I am going down yet

[Cory Caboose]

Turin I did not vote Sooh

 

That's not a path I am going down yet

[BFG]

Votecount

 

 

Dice (2/7): Cory, Zander

 

Shad (1/7): Turin

 

Not Voting (10): Calder, Darthe, Dice, Hallia, Kat, Shad, Sooh, Thane, Tina, Verb

 

[BFG]

BFG, can I fix the failed spoiler?

yes

[Turin Turambar]

Okay Cory. 

 

Thanks BFG. 

[Cory Caboose]

Actually at a computer now

 

Turin I would also remember the Thrawn game was over 2 years ago and I was a far different player then. I probably was a bit biased in general, but the idea there was eventually I worked it out and moved in the right direction. Tom is also not exactly the most incapable wolf.

 

I would argue I'm a far better player now than I was then, at least in terms of reading people.

[Cory Caboose]

I'm only two pages in via reread but I think Shad is fine

 

Going to keep going, will keep a tab open for any questions / etc.

[Cory Caboose]

Of the Zander/Shad/Cory triangle the link I am most wary of is Zander BTW

Not necessarily because he's been wolfy but mostly because I feel I'd be reading him villager more strongly than I am at this point

 

Reread may change my mind though

[Turin Turambar]

Actually at a computer now

 

Turin I would also remember the Thrawn game was over 2 years ago and I was a far different player then. I probably was a bit biased in general, but the idea there was eventually I worked it out and moved in the right direction. Tom is also not exactly the most incapable wolf.

 

I would argue I'm a far better player now than I was then, at least in terms of reading people.

Not arguing your point more giving my recollections on the game and using that to see that I can see how Sooh could reach her position as either alignment. I think the bias from then was more in style than individual. At least that is my opinion.

  

You rereading the entire game? if so I look forward to general thoughts and anything that piques your interest. 

[Cory Caboose]

IRT Sooh: after I thought about it for awhile and a couple things Shad mentioned I understand what she was saying a decent deal better and I think that world can exist.

 

That doesn't make her a villager and that doesn't mean I don't require more from her.

[Cory Caboose]

@BFG Considering the weekend start is there any chance we get an extension on deadline? We have several players not checking in yet (understandably) and there's like 32 hours remaining.

 

I think Wednesday would be fair? LMK <3

[Cory Caboose]

Oh and before I forget:

 

And why would I think Zanders a wolf for that?

 

Can you explain why #155 arrived at this then?

 

that vote is complete crap and i think you know it

 

Because that looks like "Zander is pushing a bad case intentionally" which coming from you almost always means "I think Zander is a wolf pushing a mislynch".

 

What some people in the biz call "throwing shade".

[Shad_]

Tina pretty solidly town already. If that long analysis is something she does as scum sometimes, lmk with examples. I've seen her in each slot once and that screamed town!Tina to me.

 

(I never voted Dice though.)

[Shad_]

 

 

Shad has a bit of an "eager puppy" vibe going on right now, and he hasn't to my knowledge taken any stances on anyone. This makes me suspicious of him.

Why?

It just does. It's a slight red flag which may or may not lead to anything substantial, but I wanted to mention it.

It's kind of important to me for you to articulate why. We have a lot of experience together and just wrapped up a w/w game. The "eager puppy" bit is fine. I need to know why lack of stances is concerning from your POV.

[Shad_]

I'll chew on Turin's post when I'm not on a cellphone.