IWW - Equal Rights (Discussion)

[Hayl3y]

Welcome you all !

 

 

This International Women's Week (IWW) thread is about equal rights between all genders, even though, because we are celebrating the International Women's Week, we will mainly speak about the equality between men and women

 

A explained on the UN website, gender equality is at the very heart of human rights and United Nations values. It is a fundamental principle of the United Nations Charter adopted by world leaders in 1945.

 

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As the title indicates it, this thread is a discussion thread and Dice and I will be your hosts !

 

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(we know this is a topic that can cause heated debate. Debate   even heated debate is ok    but don't cross the line... otherwise we'll have to .... do stuff).

 

(so no personal insults no running down people/genders or cultures for their  view points).

 

(you can argue why its wrong but do it logically not nastily).

 

 

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So,

 

Equal Rights.

 

We'll talk about equal rights in the daily life, the workplace, the different takes on it from different genders and cultures perspectives.

[dicetosser1]

So we will start with a couple of questions.

 

1. What are equal rights to you?

 

2. Do you think it actually exists?  is something to keep the masses quiet? or is it actually starting to happen but not quite there yet?

 

3. is  it     to pick a common example     a man opening a door for a women demeaning? Can he expect the same?

[Sooh]

1. Equal rights mean that people have the right to do the same thing, even if they may not have the desire to do so. 

 

2. I believe it's starting to happen. We are becoming more aware of it. It's a long way to go, longer in some areas than others, but I want to believe we'll get there eventually.

 

3. I don't think it's demeaning, and I think that he could absolutely expect the same. To me it's a question of convenience, not gender. If someone has a lot to carry and somebody else is nearby, they should totally help. We do it all the time at work. It only becomes weird if MEN feel like they HAVE TO do it, and WOMEN feel ENTITLED to have doors opened for them.

[Elgee]

1. What are equal rights to you?

 

It means that the best person for a job gets appointed to it, regardless of their origin, race, colour, sex, height, weight, etc etc.

It means that people should have the choice whether or not they want to do something.

That also means that if something is mandatory for one group, it should be mandatory for all groups, generally speaking.

 

2. Do you think it actually exists?  is something to keep the masses quiet? or is it actually starting to happen but not quite there yet?

 

No I don't think it exists (perfectly) yet. Things are better now in some countries than they used to be, but in many Middle Eastern countries women, for instance, are worse off now than they were 20 or 30 years ago.

 

3. is  it     to pick a common example     a man opening a door for a women demeaning? Can he expect the same?

 

This is actually a very tough question, and it's hard to give a completely unbiased answer. As Sooh said, people should help each other out. On the other hand, I still find it very attractive when I man holds open a door for me, or helps me in/out a car. I suppose that is wrong (I'm one of those who scream loudest to be treated equally!), but I can't help how I truly feel.

[Sooh]

3. is  it     to pick a common example     a man opening a door for a women demeaning? Can he expect the same?

 

This is actually a very tough question, and it's hard to give a completely unbiased answer. As Sooh said, people should help each other out. On the other hand, I still find it very attractive when I man holds open a door for me, or helps me in/out a car. I suppose that is wrong (I'm one of those who scream loudest to be treated equally!), but I can't help how I truly feel.

 

I don't think it's wrong to enjoy it. It would perhaps be a bit different if you were expecting it and got offended if it didn't happen, if you know what I mean?

[Elgee]

Yeah that makes sense. I still feel like a bit of a hypocrite, though.

[Sooh]

Nah, I don't think so. I think it's nice when people do it for me if I have my hands full, or if they are standing there anyway. It's when people go out of their way to do it for me I feel kind of awkward. 

[Guest]

I agree with both your answers for 2.

There is not a unique situation. A lot depends on the country, on the community, ... There's still a lot to do, and I do think that in Belgium, we are better off than in some other places.

To give an example we are 3/4 of females in the Institute where I work and 2 Directors on a total of 3 are females.

 

For 3., well just like Elgee, I find that a man opening a door for me is very attractive . I don't expect it to happen all the time but I enjoy old fashioned manners (*giggles*).

On another hand, if I see that someone at work needs help (whatever his/her gender) I'll lend a hand. Now, I have to say that I expect a man to carry heavier stuff than a woman. So I'll probably be a bit more proactive with a female than with a male colleague when it comes to physical stuff.

 

What about you ?

[WildTaltos]

1. What are equal rights to you?

Equal rights means that everyone involved, whatever their gender or ethnicity/race, has the right or privilege to do whatever is morally and physically possible in that society.

 

2. Do you think it actually exists?  is something to keep the masses quiet? or is it actually starting to happen but not quite there yet?

It exists or almost so but only in immediate return hunter gatherer societies (which are quickly disappearing or have already disappeared thanks to abuse and exploitation by agriculturalists). Equality is as much a condition of will (people striving to maintain it) as much as it is a condition of environment and economics - in other words, it can only exist in a society where every single individual has equal access and near equal ability to resources and to meet their own needs such that everyone in the society as a result is not dependent on another to meet their own needs (except for the minor and vulnerable age groups of infancy and advanced senescence). As such, no power roles, of dependent and provider, and eventually the psychological formulation of inferior and superior, are allowed to form except through social concession overtime (hence why, when those environmental conditions are met, there needs to be an effort on the society's part to maintain the culture of egalitarianism). As we know the world, the only conditions under which such a thing is possible are "primitive" conditions, in which people are the producers of their own food and masters of their technology, and environmental controls do not allow the population to create surplus and potentially parasitic members - modern civilization is far far away from obtaining equality between genders and between peoples because, even if for a time it meets the condition of effort, it fails to  meet the fundamental condition of equal access and therefore will always allow disparities to reemerge until this is remedied.

 

3. is  it     to pick a common example     a man opening a door for a women demeaning? Can he expect the same?

I think you should treat people with the same courtesy if they havent wronged you, regardless of what their gender is. I don't open doors for people but I will hold them if they are behind me and it doesn't matter what their gender is, I do it because it's nice.  I might feel angry if someone opened a door for me specifically because they are stereotyping me.

[Guest]

I always find these questions hard to answer. Not because I do not have my own opinion, but just because an opinion stated slightly to a certain direction could imply something completely different. 

 

1. Equal rights = Everyone is equal. Is it really necessary to go any further? Please see the dictionary for more info on the word "equal".

2. Yes, equal rights does exist. I am not saying that it exists worldwide, across every nation and is every person's feeling, but it does exist.

3. If a man opening a door to a woman is demeaning, then... oh please. I don't even have words. I am a woman and I open doors for men all the time. Does that make me superior? Does that demean them? No. It does not. It's just common courtesy, in the same way that you thank someone for handing you a plate. If you even have a shred of doubt about doing any kind of act to any person at all (regardless of gender), then you are probably (even if only slightly) sexist, racist, or any of the other words that you want to use to describe the other person.

[Jivenrah Sedai]

1) The option to pursue and secure that which I need - be it employment, education, safety, sustenance - and allow all others to do the same. 

 

2) We aren't there yet. 

 

3) I truly appreciate it when someone opens a door for me, even if my hands aren't overflowing with stuff. I open doors for others: my husband (who is usually carrying our little one), my daughter (to show her an example of courtesy), and I hold it for whomever might be coming through behind me because it is rude to let it shut on someone.

[Ryrin]

1. What are equal rights to you?

 

 All persons, regardless of race, gender, disability, sexual orientation, religion, class, should be treated equally under the law, as well as have access to opportunities, rights to pursue their own interests, and not to be subjected to bias and structural inequality.

 

2. Do you think it actually exists?  is something to keep the masses quiet? or is it actually starting to happen but not quite there yet?

 

Yes.  It exists in different forms in different places.  We still have a great deal to accomplish.

 

3. is  it     to pick a common example     a man opening a door for a women demeaning? Can he expect the same?

 

Is it wrong of me to expect a person of the male gender to hold open the door?  I do.  I've taught my sons to do so as well.  I must mention though, that I have given up my seat to an elderly man, to a pregnant woman, and to a person with a disability.  I hold the door open for the person behind me but I do expect it from a man.

 

I wonder how men feel about that.

[dicetosser1]

for me equal rights is having an equal shot at the things i want. knowing that if i lose its cause they were better for that thing then me.

 

i dont think it really exists. I would like it too but i dont know that women really want to be treated the same as men. For me if ure truly equal then all the things that can happen to a man can happen to a woman. for eg if i get slapped for pinching a womans bum society largely seems to believe that i deserved it and that i should just take it.  and they are right on the deserve it part.And i myself would expect the slap. But if a woman did it and got slapped for it a man would go directly to jail do not collect 200 dollars. if there was truly equality theyd both go to jail without 200 dollars.

 

there are some things that benefit women that i dont think they want to lose to equality.

 

There are some   and scarily it may actually be the majority who scream for equality       that dont actually want EQUALITY  they just want to use it to get ahead.

The movement in some ways has now turned with men being the unequal partner. There are stories of places employing a female because they and a guy couldnt be split but the place didnt want to be sued. that sux. if shes better hire her. if he is hire him. fear and political correctness should have nothing to do with it. There are jobs men cant even apply for that dont have a real good reason for. Yes there have been jobs    especially labouring jobs     women cant apply for but thats changing. even the heavy jobs  where strength was a requirement is changing thanks to technology.

 

 

 

I posed the last question cause of stories i have heard. A friend of mine went on a date. opened the car door. opened the restaurant door then got abused that she was quite capable tyvm! But when he   being a smart butt as he is      pushed the cheque towards her he got a line of " arnt you paying?"

 

 

the biggest hassle i have with the idea of equality is the double standards that some use while citing it. either have it or dont. you cant have both. I dont mind if you want me to open doors or pay for dinner but u dont get to be abusing me for being old fashioned on one hand and taking advantage of it on the other

[Sooh]

I agree that there's a double standard, and I also agree that it's not always unfair towards women, however this right here:

for eg if i get slapped for pinching a womans bum society largely seems to believe that i deserved it and that i should just take it.  and they are right on the deserve it part.And i myself would expect the slap. But if a woman did it and got slapped for it a man would go directly to jail do not collect 200 dollars. if there was truly equality theyd both go to jail without 200 dollars.

 

This right here is sexual harassment, and I don't expect anyone to see that as acceptable behavior. 

[dicetosser1]

Im not saying its a good thing. it is simply an example of an attitude to a behavior that does/has sometimes happened. hence why i said they should both go to jail

[Sooh]

I see, so what you're saying is that nobody should be rewarded for neither pinching someone's bum or slapping someone. Did I get that right? Because I agree with that. 

 

I do think that there are situations where both men and women get preferential treatment. It's not all unfair to one gender. Equal to me means that it should be equal both ways. I know it isn't at the moment, but I still feel like we're making progress, slowly but surely. 

 

The situation you were talking about with your friend seemed to me to be about a woman who didn't understand completely what equality means. I don't agree with her behavior. I think if a man wants to open the door for you, or if a woman wants to open the door for you, you should thank them. I also think that unless you've been invited with an "I'm buying", you should offer to split the bill. That's at least how I've been brought up. 

 

To me it's more a case of; don't expect people to do nice things for you, but thank them when they do.

[Nynaeve]

To me it's more a case of; don't expect people to do nice things for you, but thank them when they do.

 

basically this

[Guest]

well thing is certain, the only butt i pinch, is Thane's lol

 

 

i agree with Sooh & Nyn. I don't like that girl behaviour. If someone opens the door for me, I thank that person ... One still needs to be polite

 

Now in some area, it is hard to reach strict equality (?)  because of biology ... like for the military tests. Do you think that a woman should pass the exact same tests as the men to enter the army ? or the police ?

[Sooh]

Now in some area, it is hard to reach strict equality (?)  because of biology ... like for the military tests. Do you think that a woman should pass the exact same tests as the men to enter the army ? or the police ?

I don't think the tests to enter the army/police should be the same, based on biology as you say. If they were, we'd end up probably with a men's club. However, both in the police force and the military there are different jobs. Some operations are more dependent on physicality than others, and then, for true equality's sake, the best people should get the job. 

[Elgee]

 

Now in some area, it is hard to reach strict equality (?)  because of biology ... like for the military tests. Do you think that a woman should pass the exact same tests as the men to enter the army ? or the police ?

 

If it tests for qualities or abilities which are essential to the execution of their specific duties, then yes.

 

For instance, if it's the duty of something in Fire & Rescue to be able to carry a "normal" adult person to safety, then all people who apply should be able to do that.

If it's not essential for a sharp-shooter in the army to be able to bench press 200kgs, then no that shouldn't be a requirement.

[Tyzack]

 

So we will start with a couple of questions.

 

1. What are equal rights to you?

 

2. Do you think it actually exists?  is something to keep the masses quiet? or is it actually starting to happen but not quite there yet?

 

3. is  it     to pick a common example     a man opening a door for a women demeaning? Can he expect the same?

 

 

1.) Everyone having the oppertunity to be treated the same.

 

2.) No, it's hidden under words like "job killing regulations" and "gender wars"

 

3.) I don't feel forced to open doors, but I do when I can; i expect nothing in return.

[WildTaltos]

Now in some area, it is hard to reach strict equality (?)  because of biology ... like for the military tests. Do you think that a woman should pass the exact same tests as the men to enter the army ? or the police ?

If it's based on actual biological differences, then there should be a discrepancy based on sexual dimorphism. For example, I wouldn't expect the (average) woman to be able to lift as much as the (average) man so if there is a test of strength it should be scaled down appropriately, and I wouldn't expect a pregnant woman to be able to perform strenuous work, etc. If it was up to me I would also not expect the same amount of work from a menstrating woman as I would a man given that the loss of blood obviously risks anaemia and it seems to cause a lot of pain for some. I stress actual because much of the differences that define genders as we know it are really just cultural custom, not anything based in biology.

[Ryrin]

 

Now in some area, it is hard to reach strict equality (?)  because of biology ... like for the military tests. Do you think that a woman should pass the exact same tests as the men to enter the army ? or the police ?

 

Yes.  There are weight and strength requirements both genders have to meet to enter the military.  I think it would also be determined on your military speciality.  Someone who chose the infantry would need more strength and endurance than someone who is in a hospital working with medical records.

[Guest]

Thanks for your replies ! And i agree on both parts. When there are objective differences (like biological ones), this can lead to different treatments. So far, I have see a lot of help for pregnant women, job-wise (at least where I work). The pregnant woman can work half time but still be paid full time for the last two months of her pregnancy.

 

Now, the menstruation is completely overlooked (even if for some it hurts like hell).

 

On the other hand, like you said, sometimes a job asks for special skills... and to get it the person who applies need to have them (whatever the gender).

 

 

To go forward here are two more questions :

 

4. Are there "bad" sides to equality ? (= situations where equality means more work/more efforts for a woman).

We already talked about some tests in relation to "jobs".

 

 

5. In what area would you like to see more equality ?

[Guest]

 

Now in some area, it is hard to reach strict equality (?)  because of biology ... like for the military tests. Do you think that a woman should pass the exact same tests as the men to enter the army ? or the police ?

If it's based on actual biological differences, then there should be a discrepancy based on sexual dimorphism. For example, I wouldn't expect the (average) woman to be able to lift as much as the (average) man so if there is a test of strength it should be scaled down appropriately, and I wouldn't expect a pregnant woman to be able to perform strenuous work, etc. If it was up to me I would also not expect the same amount of work from a menstrating woman as I would a man given that the loss of blood obviously risks anaemia and it seems to cause a lot of pain for some. I stress actual because much of the differences that define genders as we know it are really just cultural custom, not anything based in biology.

 

 

i agree with this entirely.