[Advanced] Gods and Demons Mafia - All your souls belong to Shad (Triads win)

[Nolder]

Hi Laine :)

 

Nolder - the issue with that is that you're calling out bad play, which you don't appear to even think is scummy.

Yes I'm calling it out because apparently it hasn't be addressed and I think it needs to be.

 

Indulge me for a second.

What good does it do us that she's soft claiming?

Again, she's not taking a bullet before...N4? At best?

After that we don't even know if there are any roles for her to protect.

If she is a role. Ok good, great. So what? We don't need any power role to win first of all.

But putting that aside let's say she's doctor because I know that's what everyone is worried about.

She can WIFOM the shot so she's not insta dead. If they RB/Kill her she's taken the bullet like she wanted to which is more than a lot of docs can say.

 

It just doesn't do any good for the town for this to remain ambiguous.

Meanwhile if she's NOT town you are giving her a free pass with a get out of lynch free card to play later.

 

And nor do you seem interested in determining her alignment. And at this point in time you don't seem to be interested in determining Shads either

These are odd statements to make.

How do you judge how interested I am in determining someone's alignment?

[alannalynn]

 

 

I'm willing to reconsider if you hardclaim.

I don't understand why a hardclaim is important.

Because she's leading you on.

She's teasing the prospect of a role in order to trump up her importance to town.

There are very few situations where soft claiming is a good idea.

There are fewer situations where continuing to soft claim after being caught makes sense and this isn't one of them.

 

The only reasonable argument I've heard is that Hallia could attract a bullet.

Fine, if that was her plan cool. There are now several claimed roles including innocent child.

She's not catching a bullet for anyone.

Underlined: Why is she leading me on? Her soft claim has nothing to do with me having a town lean on her. Absolutely nothing. The same reason that Monstr's soft claim has nothing to do with me having a strong town read on him. And the same reason that Csarmi, who kinda claimed odd night cop, is not being read for his claim but for what he's done on the thread.

 

The ONLY ones who are being town read for their claims are Zander (mod confirmed), Eldrick (stumpy), Celeste (cop), and Lenlo (vig). Anyone else is fair game, imo.

 

Secondly, and referring to the bottom section of your post: In general this isn't always the case. Some roles are more important to the town than others so it isn't always going to work out like that, and you know it. In this case, obviously cops and IC take precedence. But that doesn't mean, for instance, that we should out another role. And that also doesn't mean that we should out her as Vanilla in case she is providing cover for town roles. Just leave it be man

 

 

She's not getting run up, she's not in danger currently of being lynched.

Maybe she should be.

Give me a case that's not contingent on her soft claim and I might listen to you, otherwise, probably not right now.

 

 

If anything you asking her to claim is legit trying to out another town PR when we already have some out in the open and waiting for a mafia's bullet. This is dirty, Nolder.

That doesn't make any sense. Think about it.

If I was scum I would just continue to lay low and shoot the powers already outed.

Mafia does strange things, Nolder. And I think an opportunity to out another PR early would do the mafia good regardless. Example: outting the doc, creating POE for doc/potential odd night cop. I actually hate that you bring up this point "If I was scum I would..." It's trying to appeal to the notion that you would never do it as scum while recognizing that you're aware of what you might or might not do as scum, so it basically serves no purpose.

[alannalynn]

Laine, I'd appreciate it if you could explain what your doubts are?

 

I guess I may seem reactionary this game,

 

but...

 

I've just watched town lose a game partly because the town members didn't tty to resolve doubts before they became issues.

 

And partly because, even if I'm at one end or another of my town range, ironically you and Zander seem to have me slotted at opposite ends of my town range, I am as far outside of my mafia range as it's possible for me to be, short of being mod-confirmed.

I don't know your scum range. I don't remember playing any game with you as scum. It's more a a feeling, like you're generally more involved and leading the town, but as it is we have more of a Zander-Monstr town leader situation going on and you're sitting back. Perhaps that's what the problem is and where I'm struggling to read you. Obviously it's not something that can just be changed all of a sudden because there will always be lead voices and smaller voices, but I think that might be where the root of my problem is.

I would really like to do an ISO on you as well but at the moment I'm exhausted and going into a school week/ work overtime week and I'm very behind so that's going to have to be put off for right now.

[Clovdyx]

Vote Count!

 

• Nolder - 1 - Alanna
• BFG - 1 - Zander
• Hallia - 1 - Nolder
• Calder - 1 - Manbat

With 15 alive, it's 8 to lynch!  

 

[Clovdyx]

The site calls that pink, but it's more purple IMO.

[BFG]

 

Hi Laine :)

 

Nolder - the issue with that is that you're calling out bad play, which you don't appear to even think is scummy.

Yes I'm calling it out because apparently it hasn't be addressed and I think it needs to be.

 

Indulge me for a second.

What good does it do us that she's soft claiming?

Again, she's not taking a bullet before...N4? At best?

After that we don't even know if there are any roles for her to protect.

If she is a role. Ok good, great. So what? We don't need any power role to win first of all.

But putting that aside let's say she's doctor because I know that's what everyone is worried about.

She can WIFOM the shot so she's not insta dead. If they RB/Kill her she's taken the bullet like she wanted to which is more than a lot of docs can say.

 

It just doesn't do any good for the town for this to remain ambiguous.

Meanwhile if she's NOT town you are giving her a free pass with a get out of lynch free card to play later.

 

And nor do you seem interested in determining her alignment. And at this point in time you don't seem to be interested in determining Shads either

These are odd statements to make.

How do you judge how interested I am in determining someone's alignment?

And at the moment Hallia may or may not be doc and can WIFOM kill/mafia RB etc.

 

but this is something we're just going to disagree on.

 

You're not interested in determining her alignment because you're not reading her posts, or the game. You're voting her because of something you deem bad game play and not something you find scummy (given it's policy). You're not making any arguments that she is mafia. You don't like Shad because he talked about a free lynch, but you're pushing a policy lynch not a mafia one.

 

If I'm wrong, then show me what you're doing to determine alignment.

[Nolder]

Underlined: Why is she leading me on? Her soft claim has nothing to do with me having a town lean on her. Absolutely nothing. The same reason that Monstr's soft claim has nothing to do with me having a strong town read on him. And the same reason that Csarmi, who kinda claimed odd night cop, is not being read for his claim but for what he's done on the thread.

That's not what I meant.

 

I mean that it is always hanging over her and anyone who reads her.

Everyone is regarding her as possible town power role.

Whether you want to admit it or not I believe it does have some impact on how everyone reads her no matter how small.

 

Secondly, and referring to the bottom section of your post: In general this isn't always the case. Some roles are more important to the town than others so it isn't always going to work out like that, and you know it. In this case, obviously cops and IC take precedence. But that doesn't mean, for instance, that we should out another role. And that also doesn't mean that we should out her as Vanilla in case she is providing cover for town roles. Just leave it be man

But she's not providing cover.

 

Mafia does strange things, Nolder. And I think an opportunity to out another PR early would do the mafia good regardless. Example: outting the doc, creating POE for doc/potential odd night cop. I actually hate that you bring up this point "If I was scum I would..." It's trying to appeal to the notion that you would never do it as scum while recognizing that you're aware of what you might or might not do as scum, so it basically serves no purpose.

It's not even a matter of WIFOM.

You're right scum can do anything for any amount of reasons we can't guess including just trying to throw people off.

But there is a thing called Occam's razor and it does apply although many like to ignore it.

I believe it applies now but you'll have to make up your mind.

Either I'm trying to out the 5th town power role or I really am concerned that a scum Hallia could be using the ambiguity of a soft claim to her advantage, if not now then later.

 

I can't make a stronger argument than I've already made.

[alannalynn]

Reads list for right now:

Zander (promised you'd be first!!)

Alanna
Eldrick

Celeste*
Lenlo*
Monstr
Csarmi
Sooh
Hally

BFG

 

Thane

Calder
Shad
Dice
Pralaya
Nolder
 

[Nolder]

 

 

Hi Laine :)

 

Nolder - the issue with that is that you're calling out bad play, which you don't appear to even think is scummy.

Yes I'm calling it out because apparently it hasn't be addressed and I think it needs to be.

 

Indulge me for a second.

What good does it do us that she's soft claiming?

Again, she's not taking a bullet before...N4? At best?

After that we don't even know if there are any roles for her to protect.

If she is a role. Ok good, great. So what? We don't need any power role to win first of all.

But putting that aside let's say she's doctor because I know that's what everyone is worried about.

She can WIFOM the shot so she's not insta dead. If they RB/Kill her she's taken the bullet like she wanted to which is more than a lot of docs can say.

 

It just doesn't do any good for the town for this to remain ambiguous.

Meanwhile if she's NOT town you are giving her a free pass with a get out of lynch free card to play later.

 

And nor do you seem interested in determining her alignment. And at this point in time you don't seem to be interested in determining Shads either

These are odd statements to make.

How do you judge how interested I am in determining someone's alignment?

 

And at the moment Hallia may or may not be doc and can WIFOM kill/mafia RB etc.

 

but this is something we're just going to disagree on.

 

You're not interested in determining her alignment because you're not reading her posts, or the game. You're voting her because of something you deem bad game play and not something you find scummy (given it's policy). You're not making any arguments that she is mafia. You don't like Shad because he talked about a free lynch, but you're pushing a policy lynch not a mafia one.

 

If I'm wrong, then show me what you're doing to determine alignment.

 

I may not have read everything but I think it's obvious I've read her posts otherwise I wouldn't have known she soft claimed in the first place.

I got maybe 1/3 of D1 read before I gave up on it.

 

Recall that I am basically starting from scratch here.

Voting Hallia also serves to give me a read on her based on how she reacts.

It gives me a read based on how others react.

 

I'm not in a position to be making big cases or give thoughts on every player so if that's what you're looking for you can forget it for now but I don't think you can say I am doing nothing to determine anyone's alignment.

 

I'm doing what anyone does in a mafia game. I'm talking and I'm judging what others say.

[alannalynn]

I can't talk to you right now Nolder, I have to go to bed.

[BFG]

 

Laine, I'd appreciate it if you could explain what your doubts are?

 

I guess I may seem reactionary this game,

 

but...

 

I've just watched town lose a game partly because the town members didn't tty to resolve doubts before they became issues.

 

And partly because, even if I'm at one end or another of my town range, ironically you and Zander seem to have me slotted at opposite ends of my town range, I am as far outside of my mafia range as it's possible for me to be, short of being mod-confirmed.

I don't know your scum range. I don't remember playing any game with you as scum. It's more a a feeling, like you're generally more involved and leading the town, but as it is we have more of a Zander-Monstr town leader situation going on and you're sitting back. Perhaps that's what the problem is and where I'm struggling to read you. Obviously it's not something that can just be changed all of a sudden because there will always be lead voices and smaller voices, but I think that might be where the root of my problem is.

I would really like to do an ISO on you as well but at the moment I'm exhausted and going into a school week/ work overtime week and I'm very behind so that's going to have to be put off for right now.

Pulling faces.

 

The only games in which I took a 'leadership' role early was in HP and PF, back in the summer, in both cases because nobody else was. And even in HP, although it was my case that got Dice lynched credit for pushing it through really goes to Razen/Sooh. In PF I was only talking, and forcing other people to. the only other game I can remember taking any leadership role in at all was Belichick around Day 6/7 again because nobody else was (because everyone else was dead )

 

I don't think anyone would say I was a leader in Matrix, Diablo, WE, Ragnarok, every other game I've played as town in 2 years

[Nolder]

Tomorrow then.

 

Goodnight.

[BFG]

Sleep well :)

[csarmi]

I... I failed my quest. I fell asleep.

[Sooh]

@Shad: I have some questions for you posted in purple. I'd appreciate if you took the time to respond!

 

D1
(in my notes I have Shad in the yellows (null to scum) for D1. )

He starts off by saying he'll treat D1 as a fresh start.
His third post D1:

 

I want everyone to weigh in on this.
 
Please quote the post when answering:
 
Who thinks D0 is relevant and who doesnt.

 
I don't think D0 is conventionally relevant.  Sooh's suggestion that we might all be VT yesterday had me a little nervous, and short of a really shallow concern with BFG, I had zero scum leans besides Eldrick.  Clov indicated in sign-up that the balance would change over time based on our collective choices.  Eldrick flipped in blue text but didn't have a traditionally stated role/alignment, and now he can talk, and now roles have clearly changed.  D1 was introduced as if it was the start of a new game.  I'm not going to bank on D0 having a traditional rand.
 
Maybe the biggest thing is that I think I would have felt more uneasy about more people D0 if there were 4+ non-town out there.  D0 might be relevant in solving the puzzle though, I dunno.  We know that Zander was town and nearly got lynched.  We know that Zander is town now.  Blue text makes me think Eldrick was town at the time.  That's not really much to work with yet.  Play for today and catch a wolf.

 

I was having much the same feeling about D0. I still do. I can follow this pattern of thinking. (Makes me wonder why Turin got so much flack for saying basically the same thing about D0).
 

*snip*
I got a town vibe from Hallia on D0 that I wouldn't put much weight behind.  She's been a little, confusing to me today, not sure what to make of it yet.  Her content doesn't scream town!Hallia but her level of engagement was above the norm.  That might be a good sign?
 
It's a little early in the phase for me to draw conclusions on any of them.

6 mins later:

Hallia being pretty damn townie on the front page actually. Reminds me of Belichick.

(Note: There are a number of Hallia posts in between, plus me and Zander sort of sussing her. He also says he's about six pages behind at this point (I'm so not used to Shad not being in the current!))

Could you talk about how you formed this read, Shad? What was in your head between those two posts? What was it you initially noted that made you call her townie a few minutes after?
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Everyone is getting distracted from the true enemy. Manbat. Trying to insert himself as the voice of reason. I know what he is selling. It may be discounted, but I still aint buying.

Ive not cleared him but why do you feel hes scummy?

 

Also to Laine's question. Bc he felt "too towny" to me. More like scum trying to show how helpful they are than actually being naturally helpful.

But, I always think the most outwardly helpful person on day 1 is scum.

 

 
I don't hate this post.
 
But I still think we should probably set D0 aside, at least unless/until we find a good reason not to.

 

 
 
thats why i wanted people to answer my questions
 
now you KNOW i dont like putting Town in a bad position
 
BUT
 
in a different case like this.
 
Perhaps if we voted out the general consensus Scummiest D0 player it might tell us something.
 
Thoughts?

 

 
Strength of conviction matters.  There's no way I would consider voting BFG right now, for instance, even if I was committing to D0 being a legitimate phase.  I'm a lot more interested in how people operate coming into this phase--especially if someone who was on cruise control yesterday starts acting differently.

 

 
Do you trust my strength of conviction?

 

Yesterday, no. I was willing to lynch you for half of yesterday. Moving forward today--I vote for my own reasons, but if I don't feel strongly about someone in 48 hours and you aren't voting someone I think is solidly town, I'll follow your lead.

 

Noting that he was willing to follow Zander's lead.

/starting to feel iffy about BFG now - must reread and reassess/

Shad, can you talk a little about how you feel about Nolder right now as well? oh! and Manbat. How do you feel about him?
 

BFG, what inclines you to expect more caution on Nolder's slot but less on yours on D0?

This question confused me reading back. Can you expand?

Did you move BFG nearer to your town reads?

 

______________________________________

Basically I'm waiting now for Shad's responses before I come to my conclusion. 

[Sooh]

@ Nolder: How much have you read? From EOD1 to here?

[alannalynn]

@BFG those are the only games I've played with you!!! (besides matrix and I didn't care who was leading the town because we were lol)

 

@Nolder Probably not. I work Sunday night 6pm-11, bed, then classes Monday 8am-3pm, work 6pm-5am, then Tuesday work 6-5am, bed, classes Wednesday at 8-1, THEN I might have real time to dig into the game unless I feel like sleep is more important or I ignore my professors during class time. We'll see? 

[Sooh]

I didn't forget this question

 

*snip*

Hey @SOOH, can you point me where Shad defended Hally? I'm just wondering what exactly you're seen there.

 

*snip*

I touched on it in my ISO of him. I remembered his defense as stronger than it was, and it's basically making me doubt my entire "Shad is scum" read. It was an odd and very quick progression, so depending on how he responds I'll make my conclusion about him. 

 

You have him as slightly scummy too. What do you see about him which makes you think he's scummy?

[BFG]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Laine :)

 

Nolder - the issue with that is that you're calling out bad play, which you don't appear to even think is scummy.

Yes I'm calling it out because apparently it hasn't be addressed and I think it needs to be.

 

Indulge me for a second.

What good does it do us that she's soft claiming?

Again, she's not taking a bullet before...N4? At best?

After that we don't even know if there are any roles for her to protect.

If she is a role. Ok good, great. So what? We don't need any power role to win first of all.

But putting that aside let's say she's doctor because I know that's what everyone is worried about.

She can WIFOM the shot so she's not insta dead. If they RB/Kill her she's taken the bullet like she wanted to which is more than a lot of docs can say.

 

It just doesn't do any good for the town for this to remain ambiguous.

Meanwhile if she's NOT town you are giving her a free pass with a get out of lynch free card to play later.

 

And nor do you seem interested in determining her alignment. And at this point in time you don't seem to be interested in determining Shads either

These are odd statements to make.

How do you judge how interested I am in determining someone's alignment?

And at the moment Hallia may or may not be doc and can WIFOM kill/mafia RB etc.

 

but this is something we're just going to disagree on.

 

You're not interested in determining her alignment because you're not reading her posts, or the game. You're voting her because of something you deem bad game play and not something you find scummy (given it's policy). You're not making any arguments that she is mafia. You don't like Shad because he talked about a free lynch, but you're pushing a policy lynch not a mafia one.

 

If I'm wrong, then show me what you're doing to determine alignment.

 

 

I may not have read everything but I think it's obvious I've read her posts otherwise I wouldn't have known she soft claimed in the first place.

I got maybe 1/3 of D1 read before I gave up on it.

 

Recall that I am basically starting from scratch here.

Voting Hallia also serves to give me a read on her based on how she reacts.

It gives me a read based on how others react.

 

I'm not in a position to be making big cases or give thoughts on every player so if that's what you're looking for you can forget it for now but I don't think you can say I am doing nothing to determine anyone's alignment.

 

I'm doing what anyone does in a mafia game. I'm talking and I'm judging what others say.

I'm not after a big case, but you're not judging Hallia at this point on anything but her claim. She's reacted to your vote, what's your opinion? She has 200 other posts this game and was active at the start of Day 1, so if you've read a third you've read some of them... What are your opinions on them even if you don't want to check her ISO?

[Nolder]

@ Nolder: How much have you read? From EOD1 to here?

Everything.

[Nolder]

Sorry that's everything from EOD1 to here. Not everything in the thread.

[Nolder]

@BFG those are the only games I've played with you!!! (besides matrix and I didn't care who was leading the town because we were lol)

 

@Nolder Probably not. I work Sunday night 6pm-11, bed, then classes Monday 8am-3pm, work 6pm-5am, then Tuesday work 6-5am, bed, classes Wednesday at 8-1, THEN I might have real time to dig into the game unless I feel like sleep is more important or I ignore my professors during class time. We'll see?

Well I can't exactly complain about someone else being absent can I? lol

 

Good luck with that crazy schedule. 

[csarmi]

Giiiirls dont clear someone based on D0. Pretty sure everyone was town then.

[Nolder]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Laine :)

 

Nolder - the issue with that is that you're calling out bad play, which you don't appear to even think is scummy.

Yes I'm calling it out because apparently it hasn't be addressed and I think it needs to be.

 

Indulge me for a second.

What good does it do us that she's soft claiming?

Again, she's not taking a bullet before...N4? At best?

After that we don't even know if there are any roles for her to protect.

If she is a role. Ok good, great. So what? We don't need any power role to win first of all.

But putting that aside let's say she's doctor because I know that's what everyone is worried about.

She can WIFOM the shot so she's not insta dead. If they RB/Kill her she's taken the bullet like she wanted to which is more than a lot of docs can say.

 

It just doesn't do any good for the town for this to remain ambiguous.

Meanwhile if she's NOT town you are giving her a free pass with a get out of lynch free card to play later.

 

And nor do you seem interested in determining her alignment. And at this point in time you don't seem to be interested in determining Shads either

These are odd statements to make.

How do you judge how interested I am in determining someone's alignment?

And at the moment Hallia may or may not be doc and can WIFOM kill/mafia RB etc.

 

but this is something we're just going to disagree on.

 

You're not interested in determining her alignment because you're not reading her posts, or the game. You're voting her because of something you deem bad game play and not something you find scummy (given it's policy). You're not making any arguments that she is mafia. You don't like Shad because he talked about a free lynch, but you're pushing a policy lynch not a mafia one.

 

If I'm wrong, then show me what you're doing to determine alignment.

 

 

I may not have read everything but I think it's obvious I've read her posts otherwise I wouldn't have known she soft claimed in the first place.

I got maybe 1/3 of D1 read before I gave up on it.

 

Recall that I am basically starting from scratch here.

Voting Hallia also serves to give me a read on her based on how she reacts.

It gives me a read based on how others react.

 

I'm not in a position to be making big cases or give thoughts on every player so if that's what you're looking for you can forget it for now but I don't think you can say I am doing nothing to determine anyone's alignment.

 

I'm doing what anyone does in a mafia game. I'm talking and I'm judging what others say.

I'm not after a big case, but you're not judging Hallia at this point on anything but her claim. She's reacted to your vote, what's your opinion? She has 200 other posts this game and was active at the start of Day 1, so if you've read a third you've read some of them... What are your opinions on them even if you don't want to check her ISO?

 

I'm not trying to judge her at all. I just think she needs to claim.

 

I am still forming my opinions.

[BFG]

@BFG those are the only games I've played with you!!! (besides matrix and I didn't care who was leading the town because we were lol)

 

@Nolder Probably not. I work Sunday night 6pm-11, bed, then classes Monday 8am-3pm, work 6pm-5am, then Tuesday work 6-5am, bed, classes Wednesday at 8-1, THEN I might have real time to dig into the game unless I feel like sleep is more important or I ignore my professors during class time. We'll see?

Really? I feel we've played more

 

Ok for now, I guess