[Advanced] The Usual Suspects Mafia - GAME OVER - COPS WIN

[michellem]

Or is it ENPF, I can never remember the order of the two last letters.

[Yates]

@Clov - can you better flesh out your AJ read, please? I was pretty surprised to see he had 23 posts in ISO because I barely remember anything outside of the other game stuff [i haven't even gottent o do any Three Amigos stuff :(]. The only real substantive content post was this one.

[Clovdyx]

I'm going to address this one more time, and then I'm done with the Kivam/Pral thing. 

 

Kivam is considered an exceptionally bus heavy Mafia.  The conversation Cory and I had basically boiled down to whether he's even comfortable pushing townies and whether he can clear himself through his arguments (instead of just because he completely wrecked somebody who flipped mafia on D1).  For those new to the site/that don't play much, when I first started here, I heard multiple times about how great of a player he is and how outstanding of a mafiaoso he can be - he'll bus a teammate for no reason and then just ride town credit to endgame.  They even had a name for it - "Kivam's Gambit". 

 

So Razen makes a point that Kivam randomly throws a vote out there on a player who has not posted and makes a comment about how this player sometimes lurks as mafia, even though there were other inactives as well.  This made me consider what motivation he could have had for choosing Pralaya, specifically.  He didn't just say "let's vote the inactives and see what happens" - he named one.  Could have been RNG.  Could have had some deeper reasoning.  I don't know.  Like I said - it's something to keep in mind.

 

 

 

I mean Ocicat/John Snow are yet to check in at this moment

 

I don't really know how relevant that is to making a read or how "helpful" that observation would be

 

In either alignment I could see Kiv pointing out Pral not posting because Pral has such a known habit of missing long stretches

Doesn't make the action itself any better, but if you asked me "who's a player that hasn't posted yet?" he would come to mind first just because of the association

 

Really?  After our discussion yesterday, you don't see how Kivam - specifically - singling out one inactive (who he admits to having minimal experience with) while there were others he could have mentioned could be worth noting for once there are some flips?

 

 

What I was insinuating here is that if Kiv is in fact mafia, I'm going to go through interactions players had with him (and that he had with others) and try to find any likely teammates and anybody that cannot be a teammate - and I will absolutely be keeping an eye on Pralaya during it.  The vote doesn't mean that he WAS bussing Pralaya.   He could be teammates with whoever the other inactives were and picked the one he's NOT aligned with.  He might not be aligned with any of them and picked the one he knew.  I don't know.  But until we know Kivam's alignment, it doesn't matter at all.  And if Kiv flips town, it STILL doesn't matter.

[seph]

I'm going to address this one more time, and then I'm done with the Kivam/Pral thing. 

 

Kivam is considered an exceptionally bus heavy Mafia.  The conversation Cory and I had basically boiled down to whether he's even comfortable pushing townies and whether he can clear himself through his arguments (instead of just because he completely wrecked somebody who flipped mafia on D1).  For those new to the site/that don't play much, when I first started here, I heard multiple times about how great of a player he is and how outstanding of a mafiaoso he can be - he'll bus a teammate for no reason and then just ride town credit to endgame.  They even had a name for it - "Kivam's Gambit". 

 

So Razen makes a point that Kivam randomly throws a vote out there on a player who has not posted and makes a comment about how this player sometimes lurks as mafia, even though there were other inactives as well.  This made me consider what motivation he could have had for choosing Pralaya, specifically.  He didn't just say "let's vote the inactives and see what happens" - he named one.  Could have been RNG.  Could have had some deeper reasoning.  I don't know.  Like I said - it's something to keep in mind.

 

 

 

 

I mean Ocicat/John Snow are yet to check in at this moment

 

I don't really know how relevant that is to making a read or how "helpful" that observation would be

 

In either alignment I could see Kiv pointing out Pral not posting because Pral has such a known habit of missing long stretches

Doesn't make the action itself any better, but if you asked me "who's a player that hasn't posted yet?" he would come to mind first just because of the association

 

 

Really?  After our discussion yesterday, you don't see how Kivam - specifically - singling out one inactive (who he admits to having minimal experience with) while there were others he could have mentioned could be worth noting for once there are some flips?

 

What I was insinuating here is that if Kiv is in fact mafia, I'm going to go through interactions players had with him (and that he had with others) and try to find any likely teammates and anybody that cannot be a teammate - and I will absolutely be keeping an eye on Pralaya during it.  The vote doesn't mean that he WAS bussing Pralaya.   He could be teammates with whoever the other inactives were and picked the one he's NOT aligned with.  He might not be aligned with any of them and picked the one he knew.  I don't know.  But until we know Kivam's alignment, it doesn't matter at all.  And if Kiv flips town, it STILL doesn't matter.

I understand earlier you were getting reactions, instead of explaining it like this, but I wouldn't have even questioned your Pral thoughts, if it was these posts.

[Clovdyx]

I figure most people wouldn't have asked me about it at all if I had come out of the gate with that.  But from both a moderator and player perspective, it's generally not cool to make reference of things that could be applied to an ongoing game. 

[seph]

Ok I am going to have to take a nap, no sleep and this catch up is killing me.

 

Though are in the spoiler. When I come back I'll have a reads list for everyone

 

 

 

Cool.

 

Town:

Razen

Hallia

Sili

Nyn

Bfg

Nol

AJ

 

[v]Zander[/v]

 

Not feeling the Kivam/Mish lynch atm.

 

Snow, why are you town reading nolder? I haven't seen anything that makes me think of leaning either way yet.

 

 

 

Cool.

 

Town:

Razen

Hallia

Sili

Nyn

Bfg

Nol

AJ

 

[v]Zander[/v]

 

Not feeling the Kivam/Mish lynch atm.

 

Why Zander?

Also it seems strange that you have a read on me but not Clov, given he's been a lot more present? Nolder, AJ and (to a lesser extent) Razen all seem strange for where I am as well, but I need to catch up first

 

I haven't played with Clov before to get a feel for how he plays. 

 

And Zander because I'm not getting any read from him, despite his high post count.

Sooh your voting us because zander is null?

I got this one zander, lolololololol

And as to why not cory who also has a high post count, I haven't played with cory before so i'm still getting a feel for him as a player.

 

What are your thoughts on him currently?

 

 

Page 44. Shad what are your thoughts on mish? I like your points on kiv. He looks less agenda driven than in my last game with him, but he is more defensive.

It's something to keep a eye on going forward.

 

 

 

 

So when reading through the thread previously I saw Kiv go after Pral for not posting yet and catch some heat for it.

My opinion on that is that Kiv is justified because Pral usually does take prodding but also I think it's really early in the game for prodding anyway so...both sides are kind of right on that?

 

Thinking Kiv was just looking for something to latch on to. Null imo.

So you give kiv credit, but neg rep him for the same post? Could you explain the bold for me as well nolder, I don't understand how we are supposed to scum hunt without prodding, and WHY it would ever be a bad idea.

 

 

[Lenlo]

Caught up. at last.

 

3 of the top 4 posters are in a hydra...thought you couldn't post much, which is why you are in a hydra. H8u all :p

 

Clov - don't like the nitpicking of the Kivam/Pral, don't agree about voting one half of a hydra, takes just one to screw up. Can't pass BFG neither. Could votee here

 

@ Wombat - Why me and Hally along with Zander?

 

Wish - love her questioning, would now like some thoughts on who she thinks maybe wolf

 

@ Sili - the reason of the Meh - at the end of reading yesterday, you had posted a fair bit, but couldn't pick anything major out and no feelings either way. Will need to reread you. Why did you vote Darthe and then unvote and vote Kivam?

 

Cory - don't get the stuff on AJ, need to read on that, believe Clov disagreed with you.

 

Lenlo - Why AJ and Zander?

Reading through both give me gut bad feelings. Add to that the fact that they both interacted with a good amount of people and they make for a good lynch for this early in D1 unless something else happens. I chose Zander over AJ cause he had more posts and interactions. Im gonna try and reread and get some actual examples of why they feel bad to me today/tomorrow.

 

 

I don't see the interactions with a lot of people that you're getting from AJ.  But if you use that criterion, shouldn't Kiv/Mish be a candidate up there too?  Difference being, you said that Kiv/Mish haven't left you with bad feelings the way that Zander/Seph and AJ have.  But you didn't really explain what you gave you the bad feelings from AJ.  And you don't even mention Zander and Seph at all.  It looks to me like you're throwing a vote on for no reason.

Sorry for being gone. I had to move to a new apartment, which was on the top floor with no elevator. Ugh. Then I had to get wifi setup which sucked, but I named it Bill Wi the Science Fi so that amused me. Then I ate a ham sandwich on sourdough and caught up. Prepare to read sandwich thoughts.

 

 

This is sketchy to me. How is this a helpful observation?

 

 

Also something to note is that Pral wasn't the only player that hadn't checked in at the time either.  So it's interesting that Kivam singles him out.

I actually didn't think about that.  I'd have to check to see who else hadn't posted yet, but this could be a very helpful observation for later.

 

 

Add-in: Cory also noticed this and I agree. Please explain how/give an example how this means anything beyond Random.

 

For the sole purpose of aggravating people. People do stupid stuff when annoyed. Also its funny.

 

 

I hate when people do this. Do you share an account with someone else? Is this an anonymous chatroom? Like wtf why sign your post? I can see it comes from you it's right next to your userpic and profile info. WHY!?!?

Im confused. Im gonna crash. Sort this out before I wake up plox.

 

-Len

 

 

Please actually post something and dont just disappear.

A bit late to the party but here nevertheless.

 

Catching up on the game !

 

Sup Salami. Please do.

Wassup. I be back in an hour.

 

 

 

 

Wow, a few new faces and a whole lot of people in this game. Counting the hydras, it is 28 people !! Thankfully, the number of pages this game has been manageable so far

 

Anyway,

 

Well, Sili bringing up the town/scum list in page 5 seems very weird. Looks a bit forced to me.

 

But then, Sili has a way of doing something weird everygame and I usually end up tunneling him. Hope that is not the case here

 

Technically, this logic applies only if you are planning to vote blind the entire game. People make informed choices. Even if it is D1, there are some stuff people base their votes on. So, I don't generally agree with this argument.

 

This whole conversation was out of the place.

 

I guess you did not see anything better, since your vote is still on them. I understand the whole things that happened afterwards, but did not see your reaction in the later parts of the game. Looks somewhat like you have parked your vote on them and happy with where you are.

 

Between the Kiv sass and Mish's defensiveness, that is the way to go for now until I see anything better.

 

 

Vote: Kiv/Mish

Heh, well played Yates. I bet even the Egyptians did not have anything as large as this

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/95247-advanced-the-usual-suspects-mafia-day-1/page-10?do=findComment&comment=3527278

 

1. Scum. I like lying, simple as that :)

2. Usually alone. Being not in the majority timezone, gets difficult to be on when most of the people are free

3. Usually a late game player. I hate D1. Am usually better when the number of people playing reduces

4. Couple of years. Started in this iste and have played all games here

5. Town/Scum. In with the crowd !

That was Prals catchup post in the spoils. I liked it. He said he would come back with a post and he came back with a post. A good post imo. Pral is good for now.

 

+1

Just so everyone knows, this is why I hate big games.

I'm constantly in catchup mode and have no idea what's what, who's who, or what is going on.

I hope this game has a lot of guns in it.

 

We make that mistake with you all the time, cut him some slack.

I think you are making the pretty grand mistake of assuming Zander knows the meanings of the words he uses

 

Population me. I quoted this so I could also respond to Razen.

 

I think it's kind of interesting that Wombat pulled up the post count when he was towards the bottom end of that list.  I'm not sure what the point he was trying to make is, but it seems odd that it comes from the same end of the list that people tend to look unfavorably at.

 

But it does bring me to my next observation.  People that I've seen pretty much only fluff from.  Or rather, person.  That's Lenlo.  He did say that he was moving, to be fair, but I would still have hoped to see more when he was here.

The point I was making is that people are posting too much.  Also, welcome to Lenloville.

 

Dude, there wasnt much going on before I had to start packing and getting ready to move. Once I initiated that process I was basically out of commission for 2 days, with some light reading while packing. Im back now though. And Bill the WiFi works.

 

Who is the best lynch for the day Clov

I know you didnt ask me, but I wanna answer to. ATM I am thinking either Zander/Seph or AJ. Both have interacted with a good number of people so we can get information from all that, and both have also left me with bad feelings. I will try to go back and get specific examples in the future, but im taking a shower after this post so it will have to wait.

 

 

I'm not asking you to force reads

I'm saying you are treating this whole game as a job and you don't seem to want to relax and mess around and have fun. You have seemed so NATURAL as a villager in your past few games, and here it's "well everyone expects me to make a reads posts so I'm going to and then I'm done with my time here"

 

IF YOU DON'T WANT THIS GAME TO BE A JOB FOR PEOPLE THEN MAYBE YOU SHOULD POST LESS

 

PREACH IT WOMBY. CHURCH OF THE BAT(man?)

 

 

#INFP gonna #INFP

 

You shouldn't be readings posts that I spoiler for specific people anyway

 

HONOR RULES

I like this approach.  Spoiler for townies only:

 

 

if you read this, quote it and say so in spoiler tags of your own.  Game over, scum!

 

 

 

 

I didnt read it.

 

 

 

 

 

I am okay with Kiv/Mish atm. They dont strike me as all that bad. Both seem confrontational and that seems expected for both of them imo. Not sayin they are LOCK CLEAR FOO, but I am leaning towards not scum.

 

[unvote][v]Zander/Seph[/v]

 

As I said previously, I think they or AJ are good lunchs for the day.

 

 

 

 

Len, can I assume that you quoting posts from today means you're all caught up?

I have caught up yes, though it was largely skimming. I hope to go back at some point to reread when im not tired.

 

 

Cool.  Can you show me where you mentioned AJ before, because I can't seem to find it.  Also would love to hear your take on this.

 

 

 

Reads would depend on what else happened in the game, but I ABSOLUTELY would be looking at Pral more closely to see if he's a viable teammate.  

 

Oh JFC okay I wasn't processing what you said correctly and didn't figure out what you were implying

Okay I understand

 

 

I dont think I did mention AJ before. Did something I said make you think I had?

 

That looks fine to me. Again, I dont think it makes Pral any more or less likely to be scum, but if that makes you want to look at him more closely/with more scrutiny go for it. If you were to try and push a lunch on Pral only because of the Kiv thing, I would have to shoot it down and call it a scummy push. If your just using it to look closer at him though thats fine.

 

But when Clov asked you about why you had AJ on your want to lynch list, you shot him down and denied mentioning him before when you posted twice in your catch-up that you wouldn't mind an AJ lynch.  You're deliberately dodging the question.  Not a good move, imo.  I have the same question, and I want to see it answered.  Because it looks like Lenlo is just name-spewing without anything to actually back himself up.  Making a very easy vote at this point, because lots of other people have voted for Zander/Seph.  Vote: Lenlo.

 

I had more here, but apparently it won't let me post because there's too many quotes.

 

 

So reading this was fun cause the quotes are bonked. Clov only asked me when did I mention AJ before that post, not why I had him on the list.

 

Can you rephrase that entire bolded section though cause it doesnt make much sense to me. Im not dodging any question. At worst I missed a question, but based on those quotes I didnt. In the same line as when he asked where I mentioned AJ before, he asks my opinion on the quote that follows it, because I said I found his point on Kiv/Pral to be questionable. Looks to me like your accusing me of dodging something that was never thrown.

 

As I said in that catch up, at the time I had just finished moving in and fixing a computer so I skimmed to catch up. If you people wouldnt past 25 pages in a day, I wouldnt have to skim. Im going to try and look for actual examples today/tomorrow. As I said if you had read it.

 

Heres my question I would like answered. If you had more, why didnt you post it in a second post? Why just leave it at that? "Oh Razen has more so it must be a good case" except that more was never provided. Plox give more.

[michellem]

 

 

It was too big apparently

 

 

I don't get what you mean?

That was to Shad, btw.

My point was instead of viewing someone as scummy for dropping a bogus vote they can potentially sit on, you should wait and see who's sitting on bogus votes.

 

its in the 20's and your vote is still on us? seems like a bit of hypocrisy

 

 

I think the spoiler tags got messed up... Anyway, I find what Seph pointed out about Shad VERY interesting and it bothers me that I missed it myself. Lecturing others while doing the same thing yourself. He's still sitting on that vote. [unvote] [v] Shad[/v]

 

 

 

And I'm caught up. Yay.

 

Sili is town

Rizen said things I like

Mish thing is null

Hallia thing is null

Wish-tree's opening jokes felt a little forced but whatever

Zander pinging me

 

OFFICIAL VOTE COUNT:

 

Hallia (1): Lenlo

Seph (1): Shad

Wish/Celeste (1): Sili

Nolderf (1): Laine

Laine (1): Wombicat

Kivish (2): Hallia, Nyce

Lenlo (1): CorKey

Pral (1): Kivish

 

 

Not Voting (11): Razen, Seph/Zander, Pral, Yates, John Snow, ClovFG, Beck, Nolderf, AJ, Talya, Wish/Celeste

 

With 20 alive, it takes 11 to lynch.

 

No deadline has been set at this time.

Thought about dropping my joke vote and putting one on Zander for now, remembered they're hydras. Yay!

 

 

 

Voting me for what Seph said I said instead of looking at what I said is super-bad. [v]Misheru[/v]

 

Surprisingly not that bothered by Kivam yet.

 

 

I did go back, and looked at it. At the point seph pointed out (page 20 or so), you still hadn't said that about liknig your post on Zander, but you had that discussion with Hallia that made you it look pretty bad when you were doing it yourself. It looked like you realized, and then threw out a "reason" for keeping your vote. You never did provide a proper reason except "not liking Zander" or something other vague like that. I still don't like the look of that and you OMGUSing me does not make you look better IMO.

 

Kiv/Mish- emo posts, overreactions, defensive, not game solving.

 

Fun fact about me: I generally don't #solve on D1. I am completly dependant on at least two flips before I can start seeing patterns. I usually always fake my D1 reads (I have gut feelings, but I trump them up without having much to back them with), I pick on random things to hound people for to make things happen. But you won't see me go into solving mode before D2 at the earliest.  And yes, I do overract and I become offensive when pushed. I'm an emotional player. The reasons you have for suspecting us don't add upp. Kiv admitted quite early his emo was fake. Several other people have pointed out I am an emotional, defensive player who reacts strongly, and we've spent the majority of the game trying to defend ourself, because the times we HAVE tried to do some proper gameplay (me looking at Shad i.e.) that just makes people attack us more (not an attempt a AtE, just a fact.) I do not like the way you are represnting us here and it makes me very, very wary of you.

 

Quickly before I arrive at Sea World for the day:

 

@Mish - Call it more a better fundamental understanding of how he operates. I'm not looking to give him an out and he can explain for himself, which he may have already and I missed it. It's just something I could see him doing and added it to give you some insight. Seph should probably already know that, ftr.

 

@Clov/Zander - more of hunch/gut read atm. His OP and posts thus far just read to me like scumBat does. You could say it's a prod, sure, but I am mildly suspicious until he picks it up.

 

I don't care what you call it, to me it's answering before he did himself and giving him an out. Are you worried your teammate couldn't defend themselves? 

 

Also your pushing on Wombat seems weak to me...

 

You gain a FoS, lucky you.

 

Actually Pral, I have continued that conversation with Mish, and am there because it's scummy.

 

Hmm, I'm not sure I would call it continuening. You never replied to my last posts to you, you ignored it, moved on but kept the vote. Not sure how I'm supposed to have a proper dialouge with you when you cut it off.

 

Huh? I quoted it. It was a random list because in page 5 nobody aint got no smarts to get a good read list

 

Couldn't be bothered to quote Pral's monster intro post. But I liked it, and the few posts he came with after. Gut feel says town.

 

Misheru.gifGame.increment();

 

 

Mish is a player I have trouble reading without bias because honestly I don't think I have ever seen her as Mafia and I consider her to be an exceptional villager so don't know what to expect and just vastly prefer her to be a villager

Hoping it becomes clearer with time because it'll give me headaches otherwise

 

She gets a bit slimy when she's mafia.

 

 

I'm guessing the first part is a compliment on my gif skillz?

 

And slimy.... XD Ick!

 

 

 

 

Kivam gave me a telling off in our QT too, not just on thread. He's offered to mentor me a bit since I told him I'm nervous with such a big game and being so rusty. I know he's a way more experienced and wayyyyyy better player than I am, so I decided to follow his advice.

 

This shouldn't be that hard to figure out, really...

 

1. Drop the patronizing. 2. You stood your ground on this matter, folded, and now you're back to saying you think the whole hydra theory thing is BS. Be consistent and you won't have me riding your ass. It's as simple as that.

 

I don't remember who it was that said earlier that this was similar to the game where I was hydra with Halli. It wasn't. Halli and I had conflicting reads on two players. She was voting someone I was town reading and I wanted to vote someone she was town reading. One of us had to yield for us to be able to place our vote. This is something entirely different. It's just a matter of opinion. Feels a bit like Kiv might have tried doing some damage control when Mish was catching heat.

 

 

 

 

 

Kivam. We don't have alot of votes, but I feel like alot of the votes in place right now are just "I'll leave my vote here until a lynch really starts forming". Mafia is having a very easy D1, methinks. I put my foot in my mouth and that's where the focus has been. I liked that Seph was looking elsewhere, but it doesn't seem like anyone else even read his post; even after my vote no-one has commented there. It's lazy IMO. Kiv and I get lynched, flip town, and where's town gonna be then? I think every single person in the game so far has commented that we are suss, but very few has placed a vote so far. And yet no-one is bringing up any other alternatives, so everyone is gonna pile on us when EOD approaches and say "oh yeah they're the scummiest thing all day after all".

 

I don't like lazy town, makes the job too easy for mafia.

 

 

3. So you label the votes that are currently on you as placer votes, but also have a problem with players who express suspicion on you but not follow it up with a vote?

 

 

Ok here comes the rainbow.  I've also added numbers to Nyn's post to make it easier to figure out wich reply comes to what.

 

1 Red. I didn't mean to be patronizing, sorry.

2 Blue. I dropped it at the beginning because I was advised to by Kiv. I didn't necessarily agree with the math, but I agreed with it being useless on going after Alanna after. Then Yates asked me later what my stance was un-filtered by Kiv, and I replied to that. I wouldn't have brought it up otherwise.

3. Green. Bad grammar in my post you quoted there; I ment the votes placed on OTHER PLAYERS, not us, felt like placeholder votes to me. Like several players had placed a joke vote or other vote they didn't feel strongly about, and was waiting for the day to drag on a bit. Because if too many had moved on us too fast, some were bound to point out not to rush-lynch on day 1. Instead I feel like mafia is sitting back, poking the focus back to us every now and then, and waiting for an acceptable time to pile on.

 

This also makes me think the Zander-train is town driven btw, and mafia is reluctant to hop on because they don't want mafia down on D1.

 

 

 

[unvote]

[v]Darthe[/v]

 

 

 

Zander, that's still not an answer.  You quoted that post and said "again with these types of comments".  Everybody knows what prior posts you were referring to.  What you haven't explained is what in that post you looked at and said "oh, this is AtE just like the others".

=/

 

[unvote]

[v]Kivam[/v]

 

[v]

 

 

Explanations for both of these, please. Especially the Darte vote seems extremely random.

 

 

I need to go to sleep.

Goodnight thread.

 

I don't want to place a vote, because I don't think I have enough information to want to lynch anyone.

 

Celeste, if you catch up, please make a decision for me.

 

I'm unsure how I feel about Wish. She's active and prodding, but I wish I could see some more stances on her; I'm uncomfortable with her asking all these questions and seemingly being invovled without really involving herself. I do get it's confusing to come to a new forum though, especially in a game this big. She get's a null minus so far, but from D2 forward I'm hoping to see more from her (and Cel, who's a pretty solid null).

 

 

Last I saw Kivam was in the lead. Nyn might be tunneling mish. While I think mish overreacted, I don't understand the full picture. Nyn said Kivam was covering for Mish' behavior.

 

 

 

Nyn is taking apart Mish's posts to build a narrative. It's a tunnel. In particular I don't agree that Mish expecting more substantive votes on her contradicts not feeling the votes already placed.

 

 

I haven't been tunneling Mish. I've been asking her questions, that by the by, she's yet to answer. Mish's overreaction in itself is irrelevant to me. She gets dramatic all the time, so it's not some kind of tell with her (which I've pointed out already). People who don't know her, though, would normally see it that way. As for me? I need to lean on her to get a good feel. I don't really care how it makes me look. That's how I roll and it's not about to change.

 

The issues I have with Kivam I've already covered. Nothing he said made me feel better about that slot. My issue with her I can expand on, in case it wasn't clear. She expressed her opinion on the hydra matter and placed a vote on Alanna. I actually liked the way she explained herself and said as much at the time. Then Kiv stepped in, gave her the mathematical explanation and she folded. But then later when questioned again about it (by Cory, I think), she went back to saying it's BS. I know that she said Kivam is like half mentoring her or whatever. But I don't care about Kivam's clout. And if she ended up agreeing with him, then why did she revert back to her original stance? I know Mish and I think that her getting momentarily complacent with a fap explanation from the oh so great Kiv is uncharacteristic of her. In some ways she's as stubborn as me and so it sticks out to me that she would do that when she sounded so determined . It's fine if you don't agree, but that's the impression I'm getting from it.

 

 

This slot seems to be big on excuses. Oh Kiv is mentoring me, so that's why I did that. Oh I wasn't really referring to meta, cause I don't believe in meta ldo, I just said that to lure Pral to post, oh I only did a shout out to pral and not other people who didn't check in, cause he's the only one of them I know. Oh I wasn't really being emo, I was just faking it cause bla bla bla bliddy bla. My god, I'm just so misunderstood.     This slot is dirty. Kill it with fire.

 

 

I didn't answer cause I wasn't online, wasn't like I was posting but avoiding you or something.

 

Yes, I'm stubborn. And it keeps landing me in hot water in games and I've been told several times it's a problem for my team. So when Kivam offered to mentor me a bit, I happily agreed. And the rest of your worries here I think I answered in my reply to you above?

 

Caught up. at last.

 

3 of the top 4 posters are in a hydra...thought you couldn't post much, which is why you are in a hydra. H8u all :p

 

Clov - don't like the nitpicking of the Kivam/Pral, don't agree about voting one half of a hydra, takes just one to screw up. Can't pass BFG neither. Could votee here

 

@ Wombat - Why me and Hally along with Zander?

 

Wish - love her questioning, would now like some thoughts on who she thinks maybe wolf

 

@ Sili - the reason of the Meh - at the end of reading yesterday, you had posted a fair bit, but couldn't pick anything major out and no feelings either way. Will need to reread you. Why did you vote Darthe and then unvote and vote Kivam?

 

Cory - don't get the stuff on AJ, need to read on that, believe Clov disagreed with you.

 

Lenlo - Why AJ and Zander?

 

I've skimmed over all your catchupposts 2 times now, and I can't see you take a stance on me and Kiv, or Zander/Seph, that's the two leading trains now... I don't like that. AT ALL.

 

 

Read list incoming, don't wanna bloat this post more than necessary.

[Clovdyx]

@Clov - can you better flesh out your AJ read, please? I was pretty surprised to see he had 23 posts in ISO because I barely remember anything outside of the other game stuff [i haven't even gottent o do any Three Amigos stuff :(]. The only real substantive content post was this one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I missed alot in the past few months, what vendettas have occurred while ive been gone? You vig someone multiple games in a row AJ?

Lol nah. It doesn't really matter tbh - it's not a game related thing but if Kivam wants to go that route he can eat rope before too long.

 

 

This is was the first post by AJ that I really cared about.  The content is actually meaningless here - I'll concede that this thought process is not really pro-town, but I don't think it's pro-maf, either.  It just seemed like such a natural reaction for AJ about something I thought was pretty much garbage.  Just based on this, I felt AJ was more likely to be town than not.

 

He made a few other easy posts early on.  Cory's right that AJ is a good enough player to fake that comfort as mafia, but I'm not trying to solve the entire game this phase.  If he sounds good, then I'm going to assume he's good, until I have a reason not to.  There are 19 slots and 26 players I have to read.  I would rather focus on finding a few players I'm comfortable with as candidates for today and getting more detailed when the game is smaller.

 

 

Was planning on doing a big WOT catch-up style post, but after reading ~30 something pages and seeing that I had less than 20 posts I wanted to actually comment on, I'll forego that and just take a big consciousness dump ITT. Most topics have been touched on and repeated enough that I don't feel the need to add anything - so I'll try to bring some fresh points to the thread.

 

Shad's joke vote on Seph early on reminds me of how he started in the Belichick game, which is cool considering our synergy in that one. I had some more of his stuff quoted in the queue before I wiped them all that I liked as well. His comments towards Hallia/wish-tree are pretty villagery and carry that sort of uncanny poise he has for a newer player. Good vibes from him thus far.

 

Wish-Tree strikes me as a Hallia.2 in the first few pages of the game. Don't know what that means yet but it's the impression I got, so there you have it.

 

Hallia and Nyn are passing the eyeball test so far. Halli's coming out strong against Kiv and I think her reaction to his whining is good in the sense that she's an emotive player and I would expect her to react that way to that sort of thing. Nyn's sharpness came out once she got past her intro catch-up. She's picking up on the details I think she would as town regarding Kiv's Pral vote, and the responses to Celeste/wish-tree are the amusingly blunt type we all know and love.

 

Wombat's OP at a glance makes me think the randomizing wasn't so good to him, more gut than anything. Wanna see him get more involved once things picked up more beyond the catch up style posts.

 

Zander/Seph/Laine seem to doing that townie circle jerk thing they like to do - we'll see how that progresses. Zander is easy going but I'll be looking for when he starts to make cases after our last game together where he got by a lot on being 'Zander'. Don't really have an opinion regarding Laine picking up Mynd's torch, the stance itself is null but we'll see where she goes with it. Not much about Seph stuck out to me beyond him reiterating a lot that he really likes wish-tree/Celeste.

 

Kivish slot giving me some troubles atm. I basically hate Kivam's approach this game, first with me and then later with Pral and the subsequent backtracking, but Mish feels pretty genuine with how she's reacting to things ITT. Wouldn't really have thought Mish would be the redeeming quality for them (no offense) but if they weren't paired I would support a Kiv wagon at this point.

 

This was the first post of AJ's that really contributed to anything.  Bold are parts that I can see where he's coming from, which I assumed is what Cory meant by thought process.  The part about Wombat doesn't stand out on its own, but he does follow it up with the vote and gave me a reasonable answer when I asked him about it. 

 

[v]Wombat[/v]

 

Seems people are starting to echo my thoughts here.

 

Need to leave for work now, I'll try to peek at the thread throughout the day if I get the chance.

 

 

Quickly before I arrive at Sea World for the day:

 

@Mish - Call it more a better fundamental understanding of how he operates. I'm not looking to give him an out and he can explain for himself, which he may have already and I missed it. It's just something I could see him doing and added it to give you some insight. Seph should probably already know that, ftr.

 

@Clov/Zander - more of hunch/gut read atm. His OP and posts thus far just read to me like scumBat does. You could say it's a prod, sure, but I am mildly suspicious until he picks it up.

 

After the two of them hydraed together in a pretty drawn out game, I would expect that AJ would have better insight on reading Wombat than others.  I suppose they weren't actually town that game, but I really do believe they were trying to be.

 

 

 

 

I assumed Cory's post to mean that AJ was making a decent amount of contributions but without ever showing work towards how he got there.  I kind of felt the opposite was true - he hadn't done much, but he had backed up most of what he'd said.  So he wasn't lacking substance, he was lacking volume. 

[michellem]

Town:

CorKey - Cory is being Cory and Cory is good. Key's posts have been good, she's willing to consider her reads and they feel natural.

Razen - has had some solid posts and nothing in them have given me the slightest bad feeling.

Pral - I liked his catchuppost.

ClovFG - I recently caught Clov as mafia in another game, and that was mostly because I didn't feel he got himself involved, he was only posting exactly what he needed to look good and nothing more. I do not get that feeling here at all; he feels involved and interested and like he wants to #solve. What little I've seen from BFG has been good too.

Hallia - she's combatative and firm on her stance

 

Good gut feels:

Wombat

Yates

Nyce

 

Slightly troublesome:

Wish, as mentioned in my last post

AJ, I did not like him giving Shad answers

 

Mafia potentials:

Shad - I don't like how he made it look like Seph completly misrepresnted him and then voted me for noticing Seph's post. Also for not having a problem with Kiv but voting me over that one thing.

Sili - He has a fair amount of posts, but I remember very little of actual content, and those votes I quoted above stinks to me.

Talya - For not taking a stance on the two biggest wagons at the time of her catchup (and being more busy asking others questions, feel like trying to look involved without actually being it)

 

 

The rest is null for now.

 

[Zander?]

RED IS PART OF MISH POST: Not quoting stupid giant posts

 

Zander, on 13 Aug 2015 - 12:44 PM, said:

Kiv/Mish- emo posts, overreactions, defensive, not game solving.

 
Fun fact about me: I generally don't #solve on D1. I am completly dependant on at least two flips before I can start seeing patterns. I usually always fake my D1 reads (I have gut feelings, but I trump them up without having much to back them with), I pick on random things to hound people for to make things happen. But you won't see me go into solving mode before D2 at the earliest.  And yes, I do overract and I become offensive when pushed. I'm an emotional player. The reasons you have for suspecting us don't add upp. Kiv admitted quite early his emo was fake. Several other people have pointed out I am an emotional, defensive player who reacts strongly, and we've spent the majority of the game trying to defend ourself, because the times we HAVE tried to do some proper gameplay (me looking at Shad i.e.) that just makes people attack us more (not an attempt a AtE, just a fact.) I do not like the way you are represnting us here and it makes me very, very wary of you.

 

Fair enough but sorry if i dont take you completely at your word.  I am gonna obv look over everything from everyone but IM NOT THE ONLY ONE who is suss of you so go figure...

 

FUN fact about me,  Im a gut read player.  I see stuff that pings me and I go after it.  I dont back down and i dont care how that makes me look. 

[John Snow]

@everyone unhappy with my lack of proof in my reads list:

It was more of a PSA, I'm not trying to convince anyone they're town. I'm more interested in trying to find mafia, then convincing you that said person is mafia. 

If a train starts up on one of my town reads without a good reason, I'll be backing them up. 

 

@my vote on Zephyr:

I'm pretty sure they've been in every game I've played since I've returned to playing mafia. I'm not townreading them, and I should be if they're town. Therefore, I'm applying pressure to see how they react so as to aid my read on them. 

[michellem]

RED IS PART OF MISH POST: Not quoting stupid giant posts

 

Zander, on 13 Aug 2015 - 12:44 PM, said:

Kiv/Mish- emo posts, overreactions, defensive, not game solving.

 

Fun fact about me: I generally don't #solve on D1. I am completly dependant on at least two flips before I can start seeing patterns. I usually always fake my D1 reads (I have gut feelings, but I trump them up without having much to back them with), I pick on random things to hound people for to make things happen. But you won't see me go into solving mode before D2 at the earliest.  And yes, I do overract and I become offensive when pushed. I'm an emotional player. The reasons you have for suspecting us don't add upp. Kiv admitted quite early his emo was fake. Several other people have pointed out I am an emotional, defensive player who reacts strongly, and we've spent the majority of the game trying to defend ourself, because the times we HAVE tried to do some proper gameplay (me looking at Shad i.e.) that just makes people attack us more (not an attempt a AtE, just a fact.) I do not like the way you are represnting us here and it makes me very, very wary of you.

 

Fair enough but sorry if i dont take you completely at your word.  I am gonna obv look over everything from everyone but IM NOT THE ONLY ONE who is suss of you so go figure...

 

FUN fact about me,  Im a gut read player.  I see stuff that pings me and I go after it.  I dont back down and i dont care how that makes me look. 

 

Don't take me at my word. See what other players have said about my meta. Look at what I listed AFTER the part you bolded and underlined. That is facts from this game.

[Kivam]

OK, reread got postponed by a little family business, read the thread up to here, and will reread later.

 

@Clov/Cory: My rep absolutely is that I'm very bus heavy as scum. 

 

So no, when I'm town, I pretty much am never self-cleared.  I have to count on making good arguments that convince people because they are good arguments, not because they're townreading me - because given my rep, nobody ever ever ever townreads me. Best I can do is null.  (Papa? Will you tell me what it's like being townread when you're town?  I bet it's glorious).  It's also a reason I never make it to endgame without being lynched unless I've been cop-cleared (and even then, people go "but maybe he's a godfather!").  [Note - even in the gambit game, I wasn't the one who rode the towncred to endgame.  I was the sacrificial lamb who got lynched].  On the other hand, I've become less of a NK target as town (except for newb scum) because I'm usually such a good mislynch candidate.

 

As for what I'm comfortable doing as scum ... nope, you're completely wrong.  My rep being what it is is one reason why I have no problem pushing townies when I'm scum, since nobody who knows my meta will clear them for it.  (Like I said, meta is absolutely useless if you're playing with anyone who's any good, because if you know how people expect you to act you can change it up and trap them that way.  Of course, that in turn means I can bus teammates and not have them be auto-suspects, since once you burn a player into leading a townlynch or two because they think they've figured out your game, they tend to be much warier the next time.  It really depends primarily on whether I think a teammate has done something scummy on-thread that I'd call them out for if I was a townie; I'll only bulldog a player - town or scum - if I truly believe their conduct merits it). Bottom line - and I tell this to everyone, in game and out, whenever someone brings this up - in games where I've flipped scum, the only thing to do is write off every interaction I had as an alignment tell for other players, because it just isn't one.  If you're using it as an indication that Player X is town or scum, you're doing it wrong.  Just read the rest of their game and judge based on that.  (And of course, that's a really useful result as scum, too, since it means actual townies can't self clear by being leaders on my lynch). 

[Clovdyx]

Slow your role there, Swag.  You POE'd me in a game where I had put in more work than any living player not named Laine, and got my entire strategy wiped out by a sub that I don't believe should have ever happened. 

 

A few questions on your reads list.

 

-Do you have anything to back up Wombat besides being gut? 

-I had the same observation about Wish, but in addition to being new to the site, I'm pretty sure she's very new to the game in general.  Does that affect your opinion of her questioning?

-After your comment to him about Shad, I'm surprised that AJ isn't further down.  I would have expected him there over Sili based on the reasoning, and maybe Talya.

[Yates]

I'm going to address this one more time, and then I'm done with the Kivam/Pral thing.

Not really sure who/what this was in response to. But okay.

 

That being said; I still don't see how you answered this:

I don't really know how relevant that is to making a read or how "helpful" that observation would be

As far as I can tell, you are basically saying that this isn't helpful ["doesn't matter"] right here:

The vote doesn't mean that he WAS bussing Pralaya.   He could be teammates with whoever the other inactives were and picked the one he's NOT aligned with.  He might not be aligned with any of them and picked the one he knew.  I don't know.  But until we know Kivam's alignment, it doesn't matter at all.  And if Kiv flips town, it STILL doesn't matter.

And that's contrary to what you said here:

 

Also something to note is that Pral wasn't the only player that hadn't checked in at the time either.  So it's interesting that Kivam singles him out.

 

I actually didn't think about that.  I'd have to check to see who else hadn't posted yet, but this could be a very helpful observation for later.

 

The question at hand is simply this; how could the observation that Kivam singled out Pral be a very helpful observation later? I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, I'm just trying to understand where your head was/is at.

[Pralaya]

Ok. Caught up.
 

Just so everyone knows, this is why I hate big games.
I'm constantly in catchup mode and have no idea what's what, who's who, or what is going on.
I hope this game has a lot of guns in it.

 
Story of my life
 

So when reading through the thread previously I saw Kiv go after Pral for not posting yet and catch some heat for it.
My opinion on that is that Kiv is justified because Pral usually does take prodding but also I think it's really early in the game for prodding anyway so...both sides are kind of right on that?
 
Thinking Kiv was just looking for something to latch on to. Null imo.

Only thing is that he used an excuse that I lurk as scum when I don't think he has ever played in a game in which I was scum. That stood out for me.
 

 

 

 

Nyn has been...abrasive in how she's asked some of her questions and given her responses.  It's different from what I'm used to seeing, but that isn't a bad thing.  I've generally liked the way she's pushed the misrep of Pralaya's meta from Kivam.

 

 
Are u talkin about my Nyn?? Cause it doesnt seem like it.

 

Haha. Razen's definition of Nyn is exactly the Nyn I know

Also, what's up with Wombat's one line replies on carefully picked posts? Page 46-47 is full of those

 

Because I'm an analyst by nature, and a scum-hunter rather than a town-hunter.  (I think hunting for townies is a sucker's game that good scum will always win; good scum can fake tone and WiM, etc., but that's a separate discussion).  So what I want is content from scum, and my kryptonite is lurking scum.  If Pral is a townie and lurks, it's annoying but not deadly; if he's scum and lurks it's deadly.  Knowing that Pral is a low content poster when he's scum is precisely why I prodded him and not, say, Wombat, who isn't a low content poster when scum, or Jon Snow, who I have no experience with at all.  I'm not sure how many ways there are to say this, or why you thought I was expressing a "read," but that's it.

I still don't remember where you have seen me play as scum. Care to help me?

I will post a bit later with my read list on everyone. Afraid there wouldn't be long explanations as I usually like to do on D1 as there are 20+ players !
 

[John Snow]

 

I'm going to address this one more time, and then I'm done with the Kivam/Pral thing.

Not really sure who/what this was in response to. But okay.

 

That being said; I still don't see how you answered this:

I don't really know how relevant that is to making a read or how "helpful" that observation would be

As far as I can tell, you are basically saying that this isn't helpful ["doesn't matter"] right here:

The vote doesn't mean that he WAS bussing Pralaya.   He could be teammates with whoever the other inactives were and picked the one he's NOT aligned with.  He might not be aligned with any of them and picked the one he knew.  I don't know.  But until we know Kivam's alignment, it doesn't matter at all.  And if Kiv flips town, it STILL doesn't matter.

And that's contrary to what you said here:

 

Also something to note is that Pral wasn't the only player that hadn't checked in at the time either.  So it's interesting that Kivam singles him out.

 

I actually didn't think about that.  I'd have to check to see who else hadn't posted yet, but this could be a very helpful observation for later.

 

The question at hand is simply this; how could the observation that Kivam singled out Pral be a very helpful observation later? I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, I'm just trying to understand where your head was/is at.

 

 

He's saying it could be helpful if and only if Kiv flips mafia. It's completely useless until we see Kiv's flip though. 

[Zander?]

 

 

Last I saw Kivam was in the lead. Nyn might be tunneling mish. While I think mish overreacted, I don't understand the full picture. Nyn said Kivam was covering for Mish' behavior.

 

 

Nyn is taking apart Mish's posts to build a narrative. It's a tunnel. In particular I don't agree that Mish expecting more substantive votes on her contradicts not feeling the votes already placed.

 

 

I haven't been tunneling Mish. I've been asking her questions, that by the by, she's yet to answer. Mish's overreaction in itself is irrelevant to me. She gets dramatic all the time, so it's not some kind of tell with her (which I've pointed out already). People who don't know her, though, would normally see it that way. As for me? I need to lean on her to get a good feel. I don't really care how it makes me look. That's how I roll and it's not about to change.

 

The issues I have with Kivam I've already covered. Nothing he said made me feel better about that slot. My issue with her I can expand on, in case it wasn't clear. She expressed her opinion on the hydra matter and placed a vote on Alanna. I actually liked the way she explained herself and said as much at the time. Then Kiv stepped in, gave her the mathematical explanation and she folded. But then later when questioned again about it (by Cory, I think), she went back to saying it's BS. I know that she said Kivam is like half mentoring her or whatever. But I don't care about Kivam's clout. And if she ended up agreeing with him, then why did she revert back to her original stance? I know Mish and I think that her getting momentarily complacent with a fap explanation from the oh so great Kiv is uncharacteristic of her. In some ways she's as stubborn as me and so it sticks out to me that she would do that when she sounded so determined . It's fine if you don't agree, but that's the impression I'm getting from it.

 

 

This slot seems to be big on excuses. Oh Kiv is mentoring me, so that's why I did that. Oh I wasn't really referring to meta, cause I don't believe in meta ldo, I just said that to lure Pral to post, oh I only did a shout out to pral and not other people who didn't check in, cause he's the only one of them I know. Oh I wasn't really being emo, I was just faking it cause bla bla bla bliddy bla. My god, I'm just so misunderstood.     This slot is dirty. Kill it with fire.

 

 

I like this post!!'

 

im not the greatest at explaining things concisely I just go with my gut.  The fact that Nyn who is an excellent player is reading them like this makes me feel more comfortable in my gut read.

 

its like in SW when I had went after Yates,  I couldnt explain myself in a way that others could/would follow and it wasnt till seph built the case that it got done.

[Yates]

Why am I having a hard time following you?

 

Slow your role there, Swag.

Who is "Swag?" Mish?

[Yates]

He's saying it could be helpful if and only if Kiv flips mafia. It's completely useless until we see Kiv's flip though.

Yeah but then he says "He could be teammates with whoever the other inactives were and picked the one he's NOT aligned with..." which is exactly the opposite of what he said earlier about Kivam busing teammates. So if either option is possible, how is that helpful? See what I'm saying?

[Clovdyx]

 

I'm going to address this one more time, and then I'm done with the Kivam/Pral thing.

Not really sure who/what this was in response to. But okay.

 

That being said; I still don't see how you answered this:

I don't really know how relevant that is to making a read or how "helpful" that observation would be

As far as I can tell, you are basically saying that this isn't helpful ["doesn't matter"] right here:

The vote doesn't mean that he WAS bussing Pralaya.   He could be teammates with whoever the other inactives were and picked the one he's NOT aligned with.  He might not be aligned with any of them and picked the one he knew.  I don't know.  But until we know Kivam's alignment, it doesn't matter at all.  And if Kiv flips town, it STILL doesn't matter.

And that's contrary to what you said here:

 

Also something to note is that Pral wasn't the only player that hadn't checked in at the time either.  So it's interesting that Kivam singles him out.

 

I actually didn't think about that.  I'd have to check to see who else hadn't posted yet, but this could be a very helpful observation for later.

 

The question at hand is simply this; how could the observation that Kivam singled out Pral be a very helpful observation later? I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, I'm just trying to understand where your head was/is at.

 

 

That doesn't contradict what I said there.  It actually supports what I said.  "It could be helpful later" means "This is not useful now, but it may be of use in the future".  And in the very first paragraph of that post (which you scummily chopped out..... ) I explained why it could be useful later.

[Kivam]

I still don't remember where you have seen me play as scum. Care to help me?

Don't remember the game, or if I played or just watched; I don't keep track of old games.  You were a SK, IIRC.

[Yates]

its like in SW when I had went after Yates,  I couldnt explain myself in a way that others could/would follow and it wasnt till seph built the case that it got done.

Man. You guys were dumb. If we somehow got out of that? I would have rubbed it in your face FOREVER!!

[michellem]

Slow your role there, Swag.  You POE'd me in a game where I had put in more work than any living player not named Laine, and got my entire strategy wiped out by a sub that I don't believe should have ever happened. 

I'm actually not sure what you mean here. I've never fully understood the term POE, it's not my fault I ended up subbing in, and I thought it was a good thing that I recognized that your play here is different?

 

A few questions on your reads list.

 

-Do you have anything to back up Wombat besides being gut?

No, if I had I would've said so.

 

-I had the same observation about Wish, but in addition to being new to the site, I'm pretty sure she's very new to the game in general. Does that affect your opinion of her questioning?

 

Imust've missed that part. It makes me feel better about her, I understand better where's coming from. Back to a solid null on her too then.

 

-After your comment to him about Shad, I'm surprised that AJ isn't further down. I would have expected him there over Sili based on the reasoning, and maybe Talya.

 

It's a gut thing. I don't like those comments AJ gave, but it doesn't feel as bad. My gut says it's AJ reading Shad as town, my head says "scummy". Since I tend to trust my gut more on D1, he's in the slightly scummy pile.