[Pick Your Poison] Pulp Fiction Mafia - Game Over

[alannalynn]

I'm home. Gonna do Hally/Sooh ISO then I need to get into my other games. Will be current-ish refreshing the page I suppose

[Sooh]

 

[v]Hallia[/v]

 

Finally at a computer so I can do this right. 

 

Why?

 

Because I'm not seeing the Hallia I saw in the beginning of the game, and she's feeling a lot like she did in the HP game to me.

[Leelou]

 

 

[v]Hallia[/v]

 

Finally at a computer so I can do this right. 

 

Why?

 

Because I'm not seeing the Hallia I saw in the beginning of the game, and she's feeling a lot like she did in the HP game to me.

 

Thoughts on anyone else?

[Sooh]

At this point, not too many. The last three days I've spent about ten minutes a day in here. it's not enough to come up with clear and concise thoughts on people. I am going home Friday and will be home late in the evening. If you give me another phase I will do my darndest to catch up and give thoughts and reads on people, but right now I can't really take the time to do so. If you don't want to give me another phase, well, you'll lose another townie. That's how it is. 

[Leelou]

At this point, not too many. The last three days I've spent about ten minutes a day in here. it's not enough to come up with clear and concise thoughts on people. I am going home Friday and will be home late in the evening. If you give me another phase I will do my darndest to catch up and give thoughts and reads on people, but right now I can't really take the time to do so. If you don't want to give me another phase, well, you'll lose another townie. That's how it is. 

 

I don't really like that answer. It seems a bit hostile. Also, if that is the case, then how can you tell if Hallia is the same or not as previous games? She's the only one that has stuck out? What specifically about her makes her scummy? Because she's basically one of the consensus reads along with yourself in the game. 

[Leelou]

I think at this point, reads lists from everyone would be good. It was Kiv that was pushing that we don't list who we think was town. 

[alannalynn]

I'm working on Hally ISO now and so far that's probably where my vote is going. Will post full reads list after Hally/Sooh ISOs. And HI LEELOU

[Leelou]

 

 

 

And I have a vote on Hallia

 

Thoughts on Laine?

 

 

Alright so in her first big catch-up she's questioning Kivam, thinks he's twisting Seph's words regarding "reads". Notices that his TMI argument is pretty bad. It's a good catch.  She likes Tina even less for voting Seph based on it and ends up voting her a few posts later.

 

Then this post:

 

 

 

 

Catching up.  I see from the opening posts that Tina is a dead townie; that wasn't anywhere near on the radar when I signed off for Shabbos so I'm going to read through the thread and react to posts as I see them to see if that helps make sense of it.

 

 

 

 

ehh, I think you spilling the beans, had the dissuade factor. not sooh, nudging shad.

 

All due respect, Seph, this is silly.  Once Player A (Shad) has gotten pressure for voting Player X (You), Player X is no longer low hanging fruit and a cautious mafioso isn't going to come piling on to a bandwagon.

 

 

 

 

@BFG, because the "0-2" implies an assumption that they were actually attempted reads - i.e that darthe is town Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

I really dislike this post by kiv.

darthe posted them, so they are reads. apparently something you forgot while interpreting my post for me is MAFIA have to make reads as well!

I never once have called darthe town, and no it does NOT imply that.

[unvote]

[v] kiv[/v]

 

 

And this is also silly.  (Not the vote, but the thought process).  Mafia members don't make or post "reads". Mafia members actually know the alignment of every player in the game, so anything couched as a read is nothing of the sort; it's a fake read (whether calling someone townie or scum).  But I'm getting the sense that you either haven't thought through the semantics of it or wouldn't care enough to make sure your post was clear, which would make that a null tell rather than potential TMI

 

 

 

I disagree. 1) townies dont know who the scum are. some people   and this relates to your confirmed townies call list thing   want people to give their reads so they can hold them to those and use it as a baseline to watch how they develop/change etc. therefore scum need to give reads to appear like everyone else. 2) Scum still have to make reads. how else do they pick out the cop/doc/whateva before a claim? 3) if you make no reads in thread  or you fencesit on reads all the time  you get lynched. therefore scum make reads to avoid getting lynched.

 

the difference is they make informed reads and those are often fairly consensus. Every single scum in the game is gonna town reqad BFG fro eg

 

re mafia knowing alignments   in this game you are correct but not in all games. the dont know roles however and thats what they are looking for

 

what concerns me is I think you know this. I shouldnt have to tell you this

 

This reads to me like deliberate misinterpretation and spin. I really don't think anything is being spun here, and I'm going to respond because I agree with Dice on this front. The problem is that you two are speaking different languages here

 

1) Everyone claims to be making alignment reads.  But only townies actually make alignment reads.  Scum fake alignment reads.  That's not a distinction without a difference; inconsistencies and other nuances are key to identifying fake reads and catching scum. I can concede this point that there are differences between town and scum making those reads, but experienced scum will try to make those reads as authentically town as possible so that there is little discernible difference between the two. Therefore, technically BOTH are making reads in that one is going through the process to figure out the read and the other is going through the process to fabricate how to make the read sound authentic. 

 

2) Equivocation.  Alignment reads and role reads are two completely different things.  And in a game like this, with only a 1x cop and no doc (and yes, until proven otherwise I'm assuming scum didn't do something stupid with their role selections), role reads aren't as important for scum until much closer to endgame. I agree to this point.

 

3) "therefore scum make reads to avoid getting lynched."  No. No, no, no, no, no.  Scum fake reads to avoid getting lynched. I think this is a semantics issue here. Scum still have to make/fabricate reads, whether they be real or not.

 

4) "the difference is they make informed reads and those are often fairly consensus. Every single scum in the game is gonna town reqad BFG fro eg".  Sure.  Because I guarantee you BFG is the N1 kill if she's actually a townie.  Clear consensus town, not a whiff of suspicion headed her way - and that means that unless she's scum, scum have no reason at all to keep her around.  Of course, that could lead to a WIFOM, and you all know how much I love those when I play as scum, but that doesn't seem to be the way most of DM plays as scum these days from what I've seen, so ... yeah.  I'm assuming BFG isn't going to be around very long. BFG doesn't have to die N1. She was consensus D1 in Harry Potter mafia and led the lynch on Mafia!Dice, AND was town Seer, so that isn't necessarily the case. Depending who is on the team, they'll go for consensus townie or threat to mafia

 

5) "re mafia knowing alignments   in this game you are correct but not in all games. the dont know roles however and thats what they are looking for" This, right here, was the pingiest of all parts of your post.  So I'm right about scum knowing alignments in this game (which is the one we're currently playing) but you're looking to argue with me about whether that's true in all games?  Who the hell cares?  If this was a mafia theory thread that would be a really excellent point - but in a game thread, where all you should be caring about is how to approach this game we are currently playing, it makes no difference at all.  This reads like pure spin and an attempt to throw as much suspicion at me before deadline on a D1 where you know I can't come back and respond before getting lynched.  I have no idea yet how close that came, but it's scummy as hell and you are immediately at the top of my personal suspect pile. This is blowing it way out of proportion because I don't think that it was the intention at all when Dice made his post (granted I cannot speak for him, but I believe I'm thinking along the same lines as him). Several of us wanted clarification on an assumption you made about the meaning of Seph's OP, where he discounted it as meaning what you believed by returning a vote on you. What is being done as a result is clarification of whatever misinterpretation of semantics that is going on, not trying to lynch you as a result of it. What bothers ME is that you're using this spin on words to in turn FOS Dice for it. I don't see how Dice is spinning anything to try to discredit you in his post, but him trying to clarify the gap between what you think.

 

 

 

 

And BFG is looking good, loving the questioning

 

I agree with this ... which makes me think BFG is likely dead tonight.

 

Interesting strategy question - in a game like this, with likely no doctor, is announcing our town reads a particularly good play?

 

 

 

as above  yes  gives a baseline to look at people on. If i list BFG as town then suddenly start voring her for no apparent reason i get questions to answer as to why. this allows people to get a bead on me.

 

Again, pingy as hell.  In a game with no doctor, consensus townies - which are the most important players to have alive at endgame - are dead meat.  Easy kill targets, to make LYLO and MYLO go better for scum.  Personally, I'm going to treat this game like my Avatar game - I'll be coming after even the people I think are the clearest townies because I want to give them a bit of cover.  I think we all ought to be identifying our scumreads and shutting the hell up about who we're most certain is town.  It's going to be a hell of a lot harder for scum to identify and kill consensus townies if we do it that way - and the "of course we should be naming townies" response from you (and Laine) could very easily be scum trying to ensure a clean kill list.  Do. Not. Like.

 

I don't see the point here. I use town reads from those I'm reading as town to narrow down my POE for scum. It feels to me like you're trying to scare us into having no clear townies and muddling reads by spreading suspicion which I'm not sure I agree with. It's one thing in Avatar where you're protecting a specific player, but another where we are scum hunting for a team to determine who they are connected with.

 

At the same time I am intrigued by the concept and would like to know how this would work in action but not totally comfortable with it.

 

 

 

 

 

It's pretty fantastic honestly. She's calling Kivam out for all the right reasons. I only caught the last part ISOing Kivam because he quotes it separately (Laine, you asked what purple was about in my other post; it was about this), but from top to bottom I love this post.

 

But then this happens:

 

 

 

 

 

I don't see the point here. I use town reads from those I'm reading as town to narrow down my POE for scum. It feels to me like you're trying to scare us into having no clear townies and muddling reads by spreading suspicion which I'm not sure I agree with. It's one thing in Avatar where you're protecting a specific player, but another where we are scum hunting for a team to determine who they are connected with.

 

At the same time I am intrigued by the concept and would like to know how this would work in action but not totally comfortable with it.

Not so hard to understand. We post our scum lists, and keep our townies to ourselves. You can still use reads from people you are townreading to inform your own analysis - if someone you trust doesn't share your scum read on player X, take a second look - but you don't hand scum a prioritized kill list.

 

I might try it in favor of something new, may be awkward.

 

link Reminder to go back to this lynch analysis

 

I'm sorry I can't respond better right now, I'm on a time crunch because I need to get ready for work soonish

 

 

 

And I didn't see this one when I was looking at responses to Kivam's no town idea. Laine had pressed Kiv more on it, but she ends up willing to consider it? What worries me more is I think she might have really gone through with it. I don't notice positive feelings about anyone afterwards until Kiv is gone.

 

 

So Laine had a good go at Kiv.  She recognized what was scummy about him and called it out, pretty much nailed the big issues where they pertain to Dice.  She didn't pick up on where Kivam did the same to me, maybe because she was scum reading me so it didn't jump out at her?  I didn't think her initial comments on me matched up to how she understands my game, but her thoughts on a reread were pretty sound and I don't have any issues with how she's been responding to my questions lately.  Her tone is pretty solid and it can be as scum, but it struck me enough in this game to back off of her D2.  I think it's possible I'm just seeing disengaged Laine where I'm used to seeing town leader Laine.

 

My issues are all situational.  She votes Tina for supporting Kiv's bogus TMI argument but Kiv ultimately gets off the hook.  I'm vocal about lynching Tina D1 and I'm immediately the target D2.  She's not paying as much attention when she first reads me and it ties her case together.  She finds a lot of the scum on Kiv but he's not a prime candidate for her vote.  Kiv immediately rips Dice's resistance to the no town idea to shreds but persuades Laine to move from resistance to an acceptance of the idea.  Kiv and Laine both call each other scummy but treat each other more as null and neither ends up in the other's WTL pile.

 

Basically what happens looks bad.  But Laine makes a lot of really good points about Kivam.  I definitely have to look at Hallia and Sooh yet before I go there.  I think if Laine flips scum Hallia's pretty much in the clear, because if Laine wanted to get credit for bussing a team mate she could have accomplished it with Kiv and fell back on some pretty good arguments to make the vote seem legit.

 

 

Only thing though, Kiv was working hard to try to pull out of a lynch until he accidentally hammered himself. So, no scum may have bussed him. 

[Leelou]

I'm working on Hally ISO now and so far that's probably where my vote is going. Will post full reads list after Hally/Sooh ISOs. And HI LEELOU

 

HI! I really want to unvote you, lets see what you come up with. 

[alannalynn]

Bleh, I don't like that Thane is basing town reads off of spammy chatter at the beginning of game, it's free passes that are not warranted.

This post bothers me because it's a light fos post that she can come back to later and use to support a case. I'm pretty sure this is responding to the chatter between the Banders about a Town Core with them in it. Hally's comment sticks out becuase it's so out of place with what she's responding to, which was this post:

 

 

Seph, why town on Sooh and dice?

Banders = town core this game.

 

either that or i had too much booze

 

Catching up, I have a town read on Kiv, BFG, and Leelou. I really like that short read list she posted.

 

I feel a bit better about Thane. I think my problem is that I always scum read him, but now that he's posting actual reads based on game play, I like it.

 

Ready for more Laine.

 

I don't know about Seph. My gut tells me town though.

 

Not liking Tina or Shad atm. (Gameplay that is, I love you both <3 )

This reads list reminds of hers in Harry Potter where she listed her town reads as me, BFG, and teammate Clov. From a Mafia!Hally standpoint I can see her doing the same here with Mafia!Kiv, BFG, Leelou. Not really a point against her exactly, but something to note how she distributes her reads.

 

What bothers me about her case on Tina is that she doesn't lead up to it. She votes and then cases an hour later. This post has her vote and this post her ISO of Tina. There's a disconnect there for me, because shouldn't a town member be casing to develop reads, not voting first? Feels like she already knows where she wants her vote to be. The only lead up before her vote was her reads list (above) where she said she didn't like Tina or Shad's posts.

 

 

Final Count 1

 

Kivam (1) - Seph

TinaHel (7) - Darthe, Shad, AlannaLynn, Hallia, Sooh, BFG, Talya

Shad (3) - Kivam, TinaHel, Leelou

 

Not Voting (2) - Thane Vakarian, dicetosser1

 

7 to lynch.

Wow, most of the people I don't have a good read on are on the Tina lynch.

This is unbelievably scummy to me. Instead of reading through the votes and seeing HOW people voted, she's just dropping that "most of the people she doesn't have a good read on" are on that lynch. Like... how can you simultaneously fos those on the lynch train AND BE on the lynch train?

 

Shad was my other suspect yesterday, and his posting hasn't changed my mind. I'll do a more substantial posting after work, but I am going to follow up in the meantime with

 

Vote: Shad

This is maybe a little better because she's allowing for casing later, right? No... just more posting. She's already made her mind up on a vote that she hasn't done any work on. Also, "his posting hasn't changed my mind" is so vague it's ridiculous. What "hasn't changed"? Why? How?

 

Nooe, Leelou has not ever been my top town read. Could vote Dice or Shad at this point. The defensiveness he is displaying is coming off as scummy to me.

Please refer to Hally's reads list above were Kivam, BFG, and Leelou are her top reads. Thank you.

 

LINK  I already explained this. But you have a surprising amount of info already to condemn you, so yeah.

LINK  This comes off like you're just trying to call my scum tell on you and it's kinda funny <3

 

During EOD2 you're so sure of your town read on Kivam and Leelou and you're also town reading me and Thane. Can you explain why? At the start of the game you stated that you always read Thane as scum and you didn't like him assigning leans to people based on a joke. You also have had absolutely no reason to town read me this game. Why are you town reading mafia and two players that you normally wouldn't be reading town?

 

I disagree with Darthe. Due to the high volume of animosity spewing off of Kivam, I think he is legit upset. I would look at anyone not on his wagon. If it makes you feel better to lynch me first to test that or whatever, it's fine by me, but I don't see it being allowed to go as far as it has if it was false anger.

Final Count 2

 

dicetosser1 (3) - Leelou, Thane Vakarian, Hallia

Kivam (6) - dicetosser1, Shad, Seph, Talya, Darthe, Kivam

Hallia (1) - AlannaLynn

 

Not Voting (1) - Sooh

 

6 to lynch.

Um. First of all, those not on the wagon include you and three others that you were town reading most of this game (Leelou, Thane, Alanna). Sooh being the oddball out. Then you say that Darthe is suspicious (below). I'm not sure where you're getting at. Do you REALLY think that Kiv is the type of player that doesn't want his teammates busing somewhere on that train? I find that pretty unbelievable. I mean, yeah sure look for other mafia on the other train generally, but.... those are your town reads, right?

 

*nodnod* It makes sense to me.

 

Did I do an opposite gut read then? I had Kiv, Leelou and Thane as town, are they in fact the scum? If so I am going to cry. XD

This feels so FAKEEEE. Also is giving her an opportunity to change her reads (see above LOL). If scum team noticed Seph's view on Leelou, she could be trying to throw dirt that way. She also already set up some Thane suspicion early game. Overall, don't like this post.

LINK Why are you voting Sooh here? Purely because she's off both lynches? Why Darthe as your other WTL?

 

re Darthe: " He's close to the hammer, and has just been kinda sniping in. With Kiv not expecting to actually be it or nit, there is generally scum at the end of a wolf lynch" Really, is this a universal tell? lol

 

I think we found mafia in miss Hallia.

 

Gonna look at Sooh first then I'll drop a vote.

[alannalynn]

*not as detailed... don't judge*

 

Nothing much from Sooh (except fluff) until this post which I called out before because it was commenting on the game without adding anything to it. You could call it more fluff, but it's very MEH to me to not take a stance or offer opinions in that situation.

She calls out Shad's vote on Seph; I like the interaction she has with Kivam because he's prodding her and she's pushing back against his characterization of her intentions. Especially her reactions to him saying she's scared of pressuring people and her not giving in to a Shad vote quite yet. It looks good that she stood her ground.
Related links:
http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/95185-pick-your-poison-pulp-fiction-mafia-day-three/?view=findpost&p=3524437
http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/95185-pick-your-poison-pulp-fiction-mafia-day-three/?view=findpost&p=3524443
http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/95185-pick-your-poison-pulp-fiction-mafia-day-three/?view=findpost&p=3524562
 

I feel like Seph as scum is a whole lot more cautious than he has been in this game. It's a weak meta, I know, but as a villager he doesn't have to concern himself with being consistent. He feels open and free to me, and not at all guarding his words.

A point on Seph's meta is good since Seph flipped town. I don't see scum Sooh offering up town meta and being this helpful.
 

Shad somewhat pings me to start off with here. His responses are far more guarded and cautious than I'm used to from him. This isn't just based on the Seph vote, but his reactions to Kivam too in the discussion they have from #98 and onwards.

I would peg #106 from Seph more a snipe at Darthe than anything to really take too seriously, but #107 from Kivam seems to be taking this extremely seriously. I know Kivam has discussed semantics with several players, so for now I'm just going to assume he's doing it to get reactions, and not that it's scum trying to jump on every little thing they see that could throw suspicion on someone else. I could read it both ways. Going to give him the benefit of the doubt for today, especially since he's not here to defend himself at EOD. I most definitely would like to look into him for tomorrow though. Too many things just look like scum trying to misrep to get an easy lynch. Hopefully I'll be able to find one more suspect before EOD so I don't have to place my vote here. (yes, I know. It's contradictory.)

People also spend a whole lot of time discussing Seph's joke/reaction vote on Darthe. To me the two aren't mutually exclusive. It can be a joke vote on a person, but you may also hope that that person will react to you in a certain way and help that to inform your read. I guess I just don't see Seph as scummy in this case.

Read and commented up to page 10. I'm going to the store to buy junkfood and then I'll be back to tackle the rest of the thread.

Townie post

Another good post here. Likes Shad's post on Tina; WTL Tina, Shad, Darthe, Kivam. I feel like Sooh would have pressured Kivam more if he was available for EOD1, which is a point in her favor.

EOD1 looks good for her too. She votes Tina and sticks around to see that we reach majority. I can see scum dropping and running but Sooh didn't do this here.
 

Not a lot to go on D2, but I feel pretty good about her in her d1 interactions with Kivam.

[alannalynn]

This is probably where I'm at.

Some got moved up with the Kivam lynch, others were shifted down

Sooh moved up a bit for her interactions d1

Leelou/Shad obvious, I hope

I'm sticking by my Dice read

 

Probably most likely to mis-clear Darthe/Thane, so they fell in my POE

 

Alanna
Leelou

Shad
Dice
Talya

 

Sooh
Thane
Darthe

[v]Hally[/v]

[Leelou]

[unvote]

 

I'd like some other people to weigh in with reads lists.

[alannalynn]

Leelou thoughts on my Hally case?

[Leelou]

Leelou thoughts on my Hally case?

She's down in my bottom 3, and along the reasons why I started out voting her this phase.

 

I only changed because it feels like people aren't doing much and day was being rushed.

[Thane Vakarian]

i had a reads list before D3 started, which i had posted here

 

in slightly altered version, this is where i am at at this point in the game

 

Thane Vakarian

Leelou

Talya

Sooh

Shad

AlannaLynn

Dicetosser1

Darthe

Hallia

 

I'm not objecting to a Hallia lynch at all at this point. But, i agree with Leelou, no need to rush this, yet.

[Thane Vakarian]

in and out, at work

[Sooh]

 

At this point, not too many. The last three days I've spent about ten minutes a day in here. it's not enough to come up with clear and concise thoughts on people. I am going home Friday and will be home late in the evening. If you give me another phase I will do my darndest to catch up and give thoughts and reads on people, but right now I can't really take the time to do so. If you don't want to give me another phase, well, you'll lose another townie. That's how it is. 

 

I don't really like that answer. It seems a bit hostile. Also, if that is the case, then how can you tell if Hallia is the same or not as previous games? She's the only one that has stuck out? What specifically about her makes her scummy? Because she's basically one of the consensus reads along with yourself in the game. 

 

It wasn't intended hostile at all. Just offering an explanation. I'm having trouble keeping clear who's doing what since I can't go back and go over it many times while I'm on vacation. Hallia stuck out to me as a consensus suspicious person in this game, and from remembering her posts I kinda agree, but she didn't look too bad to begin with on D1. Besides that I can't really point out things she has said or done that have been particularly scummy. I waited to see a vote count before adding a vote on her, because I didn't want to accidentally hammer her. I'll leave the rest of the analysis to you for now, and I'll work on catching up from tomorrow evening. 

[keyholder21]

Vote Count 3.3
 
Sooh (2) - Talya, Hallia
Hallia (3) - Shad, Sooh, AlannaLynn
AlannaLynn (1) - Darthe
Darthe (1) - dicetosser1

Not Voting (2) - Thane Vakarian, Leelou

5 to lynch.
 
Deadline:  Friday, August 14th 9am PST

[Andrej]

Beat me to it again, Key.

 

[Hallia]

So when I flip town, please don't let Darthe and Sooh get away.  We have more time, I'll keep trying to go back through, but if everyone's minds are already made up, anything I post is just going to get picked apart and called scummy.

[Thane Vakarian]

Darthe, i can see.... Sooh, not so much.... easy target due to absence. 

[Talya]

But she's not absent, she is around, and was around for the vote, and I don't like that she didn't know which to go for, so left it, not caring whether we went to a lynch or not. It's also not as thought much has happened this game for her to really keep on top of things. She has only been on vacation as of Monday, so what about before, she was around. Feels like a lot of excuses, for not bothering to do much.

[Hallia]

Exactly, Tal!  Hence why my vote is there.

[Thane Vakarian]

i know that she's in London, on vacation. I can get why she wouldn't spend her limited time online reading mafia. 

 

Should she really be a wolf, then shame on me, but i don't think she is. 

 

if she doesn't pick it up when back, then i will be less likely to defend her.