House of Cards

[Nynaeve]

When I was following that game with lee, wombat, cass and so on as scum I admit that cass was the one of them I missed. But I just dont feel like she's scum this game.

[Nynaeve]

Also IRT her saying she needs a mentor, she does always say that. She was displeased over people saying otherwise when I offered to mentor. I don't feel like it was said to come across like a newbie. It's just legitimately how she feels. And we were both dissappinted when she ended up rolling scum when I mentored her cause I was going to give her advices on town play.

[Nynaeve]

I have a ton of things to do today and I only managed to get through half of Wombat's content yesterday. Not sure I'll manage to get through the rest of it today. We'll see I guess.

[Cass]

I say what I say about Cass specifically because she's a player that follows her heart and is more than capable of making good reads as a villager

 

If you browse over our little spat on d1 (I remember Wombat chiming in on this, gonna be fun to see what he said) Cass' defense is basically "you expect too much from me, I'm not really a good villager, I am paranoid and etc. etc." and she made a lot of really clever emotional appeals but the fact of the matter was she was trying to figure out ways to set up a narrative of "I am Cass, and I am going to be a poor villager this game" which just sketches me out so much because A) Cass is not a new player and should not be given "new inexperienced player" treatment; she's actually got more than a few games under her belt now and B) she's usually a very competent player who makes confident reads, even if she is wrong now and then. It all seems like some pre-ordained excuse.

 

IDK either her confidence in her villager game is at an all-time low for some reason or she has another reason for setting up that narrative.

 

She's going to be a key slot for me to figure out, just like yesterday.

 

Ok, I'm not going to harp on this any longer after this, but I want to say my piece.

 

If I actually knew how to Town better, I'd be doing it Cory.

 

A) Unless you count this, I've survived beyond the opening as Town once, and it was the first game I ever played. I'm trying hard here to learn as I go along.

B) You are totally wrong on all of this. I am a very competent tone and emotion/motivation reader and when I work hard I can find little inconsistencies that back that up. I know next to nothing about the steps to follow to play competently as Town. I am not confident in my reads, like, ever.

 

My confidence in my Town game hasn't been off the ground since the first game, where I survived. Why do you think I started asking for a mentor? I still haven't learnt to play the game beyond the basics of tone/contradiction/emotion/gut.

 

The only thing I can suggest you do if you want to understand me better this game is go back and look at the mish-mash where I ITA-failed WolfHoya early in the game even though he was consensus town. Read my posts again. I YOLO'd on gut - because I had no idea how to actually investigate or handle it ITT - and got insta-killed - because I sucked and played ITT just the way you say I'm playing now. Similarly with BT Cliche, where I pushed Verb the same way but was wrong and fail-Towned myself into getting steamrolled on D1, exactly the same way. Arthurian would probably have been the same, but I got lover-killed the very night I subbed in. IMO the way I survived my Scum games was by sounding good and not changing things up/being controversial. I'm hardly doing that here.

 

Don't give me leeway for tone or things I've been able to practice/develop in my scum games but stop pushing me because you expect me to have more understanding of how a Town game works. I don't know this stuff. If you want to see me at a higher level, comments like how I should interact in RT more etc are actually like gold to me this game, and posts like #1720 of yours will help especially now that I know for certain you are Town. All I can do here is try to learn from what others are doing/suggesting and keep trying to improve. The rest of what you've been highlighting about my play so far this game is understandable, but essentially alignment null as far as I can tell.

 

That is all. Moving on.

[Cass]

Lol @ #1802 - ninja'd.

[Nynaeve]

As I said. First Verb. Then we have to decide between Clov and AJ.

[Cory Caboose]

[v]Verbal[/v]

 

Don't feel like Clov or AJ are scum, so extremely bothered. Hopefully I'm just wrong, but they both seem like villagers to me.

[Nynaeve]

I feel like Scum was/is looking for mislynches in Sooh, dice, Cass. And they were also aiming at discrediting Cory.. I also think it's a fairly strong seasoned group of scum that have the balls to leave Cory alive this long. Though its very possible he's also still around cause he's misclearing one of them. Sooh is dead, dice cop confirmed townie. As is Cory.

[Cory Caboose]

Cory - why do you have Tress lower than AJ? I haven't looked at her much yet, but everything she has said has made sense to me so far?

 

I don't anymore, but I'm still reasonably comfortable with AJ as a villager. Look at the conversation me and Clov had about him.

 

I'd be less concerned with your preservation and more concerned with figuring out who the wolves are. If I'm wrong on you, it doesn't matter as long as I am right on three other people, understand? That's the mindset you need to have too. A lot of people are sticking up for you hard for whatever reasons, too, even though I think you know you're still in your "wolf range" since your biggest bone to pick with me is that I have too high expectations for your town game and that you are honest about struggling as a villager. I'm a mechanically cleared villager and me and I don't think I could get you lynched today if I tried, so some people think you are doing something right.

[Nynaeve]

Cory once I get through wombet and verbal's content, I'll do my best to find the third. I just dont see Cass, Tress or Kaylee as scum. So therethere's no escsping that PoE.

[Cass]

Like, consider his scumread on Darthe early d1.

 

He says "I have a mild scumread on Darthe because I think he was pushing people to leave cover early and he might have been doing that to try and get people to peek wrong or peek in a way that's mechanically invalid or etc."

 

When making this read, he has to be about 80% sure that considering Darthe as a player and the thread's feelings on Darthe that read is going to be met with a good deal of resistance.

So he's either A) a villager who made a read and decided to display it because it's his job to push people he thinks are wolves regardless of how the thread feels OR B) a wolf who decided that he wanted to get some early bertstares thrown his way early.

 

It's just more likely he's a villager doing that, but he's selectively in the PoE because I think he's capable of it, but his wolf game is pretty static and he usually just tries to be villagery and make friends and stuff of that sort. He feels so much like a villager to me even if he's had a bad game.

 

But not as much as Nyn/Tress/Kay ATM

 

I'm assuming you're talking about AJ here? I don't have your meta on him, but a couple of things already stood out to me about this D1/D2 - with the opposite conclusion. I agreed with his take on leaving cover til later but I actually thought it was suss the way he mentioned but didn't immediately explain or push that scumread harder from the start, and the way he casually explained but pretty much dismissed holding on to the theory after I copped a truck-load of heat for pushing Darthe about it looked like he was just trying to keep in people's good books, to me.

 

This is what happened, quote-for-quote, and what stood out to me:

 

Floats the suggestion but avoids drawing immediate heat.

I have Darthe as mildly wolfy.

 

I'll explain later

 

Agrees with Nyn and Darthe despite Darthe already being mildly wolfy to him (? making friends like you suggest?)

 

 

 

However, I think Sooh is definitely wolfing this round. She is usually a pretty pure townie. [v] Sooh [/v]

I didn't like her question to Clov, basically.

 

I'll agree the question came across awkward.

 

Floats the idea again but still doesn't push:

 

 

Something bugs me a bit about AJ taking on the role of the voice of reason regarding seer cover. Could be nothing, could be something. As always, keeping an eye on him.

 

This may have something to do with my mild scum read on Darthe.

 

 

Later he makes a big multi-quote post which all reads overly agreeable/making friends to me. Split and spoilered here to highlight the ones relating specifically to this issue, but it's all there in the first quote if you want to take a look.

 

Clov mentions he may have 'the slightest of town reads on AJ, pending what he has against Darthe' (spoilered immediately above AJ's reply), and AJ bolds it and responds: 

 

 

Clov came in and made a joke about the scum team's identity, naming three players that haven't posted yet. You asked him if that was a soulread and then asked if it was a aussie theme. The whole post sounded fake to me and I did not care for it.

 

Darthe's opinion of how you usually play means squat to me. Other than mentoring you in a game, I don't think we've played together before so my focus is on your play in THIS game. And OMGUS FoSing me for allegedly sheeping Darthe (of all people! lol) is not making you look any better in my eyes. I also find it interesting that I'm getting FoSed but Darthe isn't even though, under your consideration, your content so far doesn't warrant it.

 

 

Any other thoughts you have to share?

 

I quoted this one to say that I liked the bite in it. I was quite amused as I continued reading to see that I wasn't the only one.

 

I like this post of Nyn's.

 

Nyn is trending upwards for the bold.

 

I like this post. It's a tad much for a slight push like I was going for, but I like to see where you're coming from. 

 

+4?

 

 

Let's see.. if I was to fake peek someone atm I think I would vanillager probably you, Clov... if I have a real peek though I'll save that for later and give you a bit more work in order to find it...

 

You may as well claim not cop after this post.

 

Unless you are, in which case great job covering.  But you aren't cause you're a wolf here.  You've yet to even address that, make a townie post or post anything really meaningful.  

 

Harsh. But I likewise cringed a bit when I read this.

 

 

 

 

 

Clov how's your townie list looking?

 

I'm adding Kaylee to mine for pulling out the classic Kaylee-esque observation in 153.  

 

About where it was.  Nothing from you/Kaylee/Verbal made me want to adjust my reads on you.  I still think that post from Nyn is more likely to come from her as town than mafia, but she'd probably be nullish.

 

Not really comfortable with a read one way or another on the others who have posted.  Maybe the slightest of town reads on AJ, pending what he has against you.

 

 

 

I mostly agree with your reads here in the first bolded bit.

 

As far as what I had/have on Darthe I would probably dismiss at this point after reading back through the game.

 

I was getting a sneaking suspicion from the way he was pushing for seer cover on N0 of a game with a N0 peek. Make sense? I understand what the typical mechanics are, but they aren't spelled out in the OP and you can assume if you like that I know that the peek wasn't random or sent in my role PM when I first received it.

 

Anyway - I got the vibe maybe he was pushing for cover to 'save' the seer as the front but the real angle was to get people to make hasty peeks that would easily be identified as fake later when it came to seer hunt at Night.

 

 

 

Perhaps it's recency, maybe it's a bit of bias since I know myself to be town, whatever it is I'm a bit hesitant on AJ atm.  I don't want to pursue it or anything but I feel like if he continues as he has it's going to take me a while to get a good read on him this game.

 

I appreciate your reasonableness here. Likewise it wasn't something I really wanted to explore until I saw more from you and I'm okay at this point thinking that perhaps I was being more paranoid than anything.

 

 

 

The tone reads to me exactly like he was dismissing the idea and trying to make friends with Clov - especially since Clov (and others) had just pushed me pretty hard about FoSing Darthe/'consensus Town' for exactly the same thing.

 

Then he adds in a reply to Darthe that feels exactly the same way:

/snip from above

Perhaps it's recency, maybe it's a bit of bias since I know myself to be town, whatever it is I'm a bit hesitant on AJ atm.  I don't want to pursue it or anything but I feel like if he continues as he has it's going to take me a while to get a good read on him this game.

I appreciate your reasonableness here. Likewise it wasn't something I really wanted to explore until I saw more from you and I'm okay at this point thinking that perhaps I was being more paranoid than anything.

 

Later, to Sooh -  removes Darthe from his PoE completely based on nothing but numbers, despite his earlier 'suspicion':

 

 

I just meant that I haven't seen you really provide anything that I would describe as helping me to read you since you came back in today. Yesterday I felt I was getting more from you... Could you give me some current leans, please?

 

 

 

Verb is my villager peek so that goes without saying. Going off thread I think Nyn is on her villager game and I think Clov is too. Darthe is more likely to be a villager here based solely on numbers despite my suspicion of him earlier.  Kaylee seems okay, she's making her observations that are accurate in the moment. I'd probably peek her just to confirm her because I think she's likely to make it deep into the game on the merit of not getting NK'd often in this roster and clearing her would be valuable later on in POE.

 

Cass might be light green for the moment. I appreciate Cass expounding more on her thoughts to show her perspective which I don't think she'd do as well if she were wolfing again.

 

Dice had his 'gut read' opener which I think by now I should probably consider more of a neutral movement at this point in our experience together. I'll need more from him. Leelou can fit into this category as well because I haven't seen enough from her to really place her outside of null. Tress would be here as well until she comes back more with her own thoughts.

 

I'm undecided on you atm. You've said some things that came across weird to me but I think you've made some decent posts as well. The one you talked about people ignoring / defending you as suspect could offer some valuable insight later on if you're a villager here. I agreed with some of your points.

 

Cory and Wombat I have as hesitant wolf leans for now. I feel like the way Cory is engaging those who suspect him is more in-line with how I would do things as a wolf although I admit that could just be my own personal projection on his play. Wombat is more of hunch I guess. I don't think any of the observations he's made couldn't be done as a wolf and I think there's some potential for distancing between him and Cory happening. Cory's post about them colliding as Mario Kart characters or whatever gave me that impression.

 

Everthing in the list here feels softly-softly to me, and there's more focus on the positive of everyone than the negative - even if they're players he's suspecting, which feels strange.

 

 

 

Again, I don't have your meta on him, but I read it exactly the way you're describing he plays his game as wolf.

 

 

And, fwiw, here's what I had to say about it D1 in response to a question asked by Darthe - just to prove I was doing something/pointing things like this out, even if you didn't see:

 

 

Found them.

 

Cass let's try this differently. Gonna need you to step it up if you're a villager so hone in on me here.

 

Respond to everything in two lines or less (apiece).

 

1. WhaT is your objective?

 

2. Who. Are your targets, based on your reads?

 

 

3. In brief, why? A sentence for each at most plz

 

4. CDV yourself, me and Wombat?

5. CDV me, Sooh and leelou

 

 

1. Lynch wolves

 

2. Today? Best lynch target probably Sooh unless something changes or someone makes an obvious slip before EoD. Most likely wolves/next best general targets - everyone else I'm considering possibly scummy or need more information on, particularly you, AJ, Clov, Cory, Wombat, Leelou, Verb.

 

3.

Sooh 

- Because she's pinging me as wolfy and compared to the other players I'm finding wolfy, she is someone I've recently been thinking I can correctly read/understand when she says confusing/potentially wolfy things as Town. I don't buy her 'I'm trying something new/was just shaking things up' defence and I don't like that she switched to that from brushing suspicion off with 'I was joking' and 'I usually get found wolfy'. The switch feels like too much of a wolfy contradiction to me. 

 

Darthe - Basically the things I found off in early game: pushing so hard for the early Seer cover, downplaying the wolf-advantage of inaccurate cover,  attitude/tone in first response to me, and even at this stage the early vote on Sooh. 

 

 

 

 

AJ - I don't like how he hinted at a scum lean on you early but didn't immediately post it, the way he retracted it later or the way he decided in his reads to ignore that early suspicion with the suggestion that numerically you're probably Town. Also don't like his quick vote on me early.

 

 

 

Clov - Early Nyn push felt wishy-washy, not sure if he's genuinely reading me or using TMI, feel like he defended me a little too hard against Cory early on, followed Nyn's points about his shift from me to Dice.

 

Cory - If I'm being realistic this mostly comes down to attitude/tone and not knowing how he plays a game. I feel he's been pushing others a lot without providing reasons and I don't like the attitude of FoSing people and then not bothering to read what they say/openly discrediting them without encouraging legitimate interaction (eg. AJ/me/Clov). I don't like the way he jumped on me as Wolfy providing biased evidence and basically only talked about my previous games.

 

Wombat -  Early gut tone felt overly ambiguous, later attitude is flippant and I'm getting vibes somewhat similar to when we played together as wolf. Can't explain it better than that right now.

 

Leelou - Weirdness with Verbal early in the game, lack of thread presence since then, seemingly opportunistic perspective of me. Feel like it comes more from thread consensus read than actual read of me this game.

 

Verbal - Don't recall much of him from early game and that seems strange, recent posts feel like he's angling rather than solving. So far that's all I've got.

 

4.

Cop Wombat, Doc me, Vig you

Cop You, Doc Leelou, Vig Sooh.

 

Yes, that took a long time, no it's not alignment indicative or even entirely game related.

 

 

 

[Cass]

I hate DM formatting. That is all. 

[Cass]

 

Cory - why do you have Tress lower than AJ? I haven't looked at her much yet, but everything she has said has made sense to me so far?

 

I don't anymore, but I'm still reasonably comfortable with AJ as a villager. Look at the conversation me and Clov had about him.

 

I'd be less concerned with your preservation and more concerned with figuring out who the wolves are. If I'm wrong on you, it doesn't matter as long as I am right on three other people, understand? That's the mindset you need to have too. A lot of people are sticking up for you hard for whatever reasons, too, even though I think you know you're still in your "wolf range" since your biggest bone to pick with me is that I have too high expectations for your town game and that you are honest about struggling as a villager. I'm a mechanically cleared villager and me and I don't think I could get you lynched today if I tried, so some people think you are doing something right.

 

 

I totally get the bold and I don't actually care if you need to get me out of the way to clear things up. I'm just frustrated that you don't get me is all. We'll talk post game and you can be my Obi once you finally understand what I'm trying to say.

 

Just posted about AJ. Still don't feel him TBH.

[Nynaeve]

Clov, correct me if I'm wrong but you picked Verbal as a seer cover for your N0 random pick, right? Can you explain why? Because as I've pointed out before all these town reads on Verbal early on makes no sense to me.

 

I find it interesting that both Clov and AJ picked Verbal as seer cover. If I understand it correctly, the benefit of a scummy using seer cover on a wolfbro is that it explains why they weren't NKed cause in theory the scum team would know that they're not the seer. Now I know I said before that I didnt like AJ dropping his cover like that.... but on the other hand I'm not sure I see the benefit of doing so from a scum POV. Ie.... why not just ride it out? What bothered me was a combination of the abruptness of the change in read. And how extreme it came across.

[Nynaeve]

Also providing seer cover on a wolfbro means they can avoid talking or interacting with their teammate. Clov just kept saying he would punch people in the neck if they tried to push Verbal. AJ only addressed Verbal properly after heeding my request.

[Nynaeve]

AJ's saving grace, in comparison to Clov, is that I'm pretty sure he put both Verbal and Verbal at the bottom of his read list (if I recall it right). So that would be some hardcore distancing.....

[Nynaeve]

Verbal and Wombat*

[Yates]

Vote Count 3.1

 

Verbal32: Bewbs McGee, cory caboose

 

With 9 alive it takes 5 to reach majority.

 

Deadline:

[Cory Caboose]

Yates there is no majority until LYLO

 

Read the rules scrub

[Nynaeve]

There was also a shift in how Clov has been handling me throughout the game. I gave him bad vibes. Wombat said the same really early on. On the first 5-10 pages of the game which seemed pretty absurd to me. He also prodddd Halli quite a bit.

 

Then as I started to gain consensusy town reads, both Clov and Wombat started singing a new tune. When I prodded Clov he started giving me 'tude but as I was hesitating on him he became a lot more pleasent.

 

AJ on the other hand has been pretty consistent at town reading me.

 

 

 

mmmmmm

[Kaylee]

D'AWW DOGGIE <333333333

 

---

 

ALSO, can someone look at the following Wombat posts while I sleep:

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/94324-house-of-cards/page-27?do=findComment&comment=3477133

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/94324-house-of-cards/page-28?do=findComment&comment=3477155

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/94324-house-of-cards/page-28?do=findComment&comment=3477162

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/94324-house-of-cards/page-28?do=findComment&comment=3477169

 

And keeping in mind there is no day chat for the wolves,

 

that this doesn't look like Wombat obviously trying to in-thread coach Cass into making better posts (being more concise, etc.) and dropping certain topics (ie Darthe)?

I could see that. Esp the third one. Kinda struck me as odd when I first read too.

[Andrej]

Just pulled in at work so I'm gonna type this quickly.

 

Cass you are a wolf because you are using evidence from D1 to case me when we are now in D3 and there's a red flip on the table. Instead of complaining about how you don't know how to town you should be trying to find who Wombat's teammates are. Do you think that applies to me? Why or why not?

 

@Nyn - if anything should have been learned from the Middle Earth game is that I don't really like bussing as a wolf. Distancing is necessary of course but I find it much more fun to win with my team in tact. I'm never a wolf here with Wombat. There were other directions I could've gone in over Wombat such as Cass/Dice or making a push on Verb instead. Wombat wasn't much of a decided lynch until Saturday evening and I was already voted him the previous night/morning.

[Kaylee]

 

 

 

 

Wombat you have to know that nyn/Cory/me are getting NK'd tonight barring the wolves falling for someones seer cover.

Do you really have to post every thought that comes into your head?

I'm locking Tress up as a villager, I think

 

Wwwwombat spent some time play acting like he wanted Darthe to shut up more about his seer cover; with the addendum that Darthe specifically talked about how he ascertained his peek, I think this all feeds into a very conceivable narrative that the wolves thought Darthe was the seer. This just looks like a set-up to say "yeah, I thought Darthe was the seer, it's why I tried to get Cass off his back and tried to get him to be more subtle about it."

 

There's like a 99% that Darthe was killed because he had seer equity and Wombat being thread-aware of it and trying to use it to coax villager points is extremely telling.

 

I know some of this is redundant but it helps me to remember why I think the things I do.

 

Stopping here for now and going to sleep. Goodnight frands.

Add her recent game play and that's why she's a high percentage for me.

 

Basically i see Bewbs and Tress as clear as they can be, meaning town, next to our cop cleared Dice and Cory.

[Yates]

 

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch.

then the red needs to go. It confuses things.

 

 

 

With 9 alive it takes 5 to reach majority.

Yates there is no majority until LYLO

 

Everyone's a critic...

[Cass]

I adopted a dog today btw.

 

Just felt like sharing

 

I saw snow in Oz for the first time today :)

 

Just felt like sharing too.

 

Winter arrived.