[Basic]: Be Nice Mafia

[BFG]

Thane - this should be preceeded with the fact that I almost always read Thane as scummy, however last game I made headway with understanding him and actually read him correctly before msiynching him anyway because peer pressure, consolidation and work leaving me mostly brain dead that week (why I hydra'd instead of going solo - should have stuck with Keys instincts :/).

 

Interesting dilemma at the moment. When he's in thread and interacting with people I feel like he's townie. But he's not in thread enough, Yates is on the money with volume being a fairly reliable town!Thane tell. Earlier in the thread he said he was there but no one else was (European time zone problem) but it's the same every game, yet he normally still manages to interact with people, so why is this game different?

 

There aren't the 'unguarded' thoughts I expect from Town!Thane, but when he's articulated his thoughts they're roughly what I 'expect' him to have. At one stage he mixes up me and Sili which indicates at the least that it's not a Sili/Thane team.

 

Post 82 also reads stragely - when he asks Cass if she's confident of winning this game? I don't know what it is, it just reads awkwardly. I want to re reread the EOD1 when Thane was around more as he read better to me then.

 

 

 

 

Tress - comes in with early reads: Townish on Cass & Clov, null on me, Sili always seems wolfy... fine she forgot about Jmm, but why say I'm null but not Yates who she's still making her mind up on? On the other hand coming straight in with reads is a good look :)

 

There's that strange 'teh mafia' conversation which again made me feel like I'm missing something #ALLIANCELITE /shrug not really important. At her reads in 260 I'm still null, which is starting to get frustrating given that Jmm/Sili are her mafia team, yet she thinks(?) that team unlikely.

 

Am wondering if the 'vig Sili or Jmm whichever isn't lynched' is TMI as it seems to assume that whichever is lynched would flip town, I'm not sure if I should just let the 'assuming they flip town' go as unspoken implied or not. Our semantics argument people haven't said anything about it yet One of those things that if Tress had said vig Sili or Jmm I wouldn't have blinked, but the extra information seems to be missing something crucial. Although having said that I'm not sure where the vig or lynch Jmm thing came from as I don't recall Tress saying much outside of thinking meta won't be much good. - something else to check in ISO

[Yates]

Have I explained to your satisfaction?

Not really. I think your explanation is that you were still pursuing Sili and wondering if I felt like you weren't. I acknowledge that you called him a scum lean and challenged him on mechanics theory. However, I don't think you were clear about what I was asking you. So with that more clear; is there a reason you didn't follow up with Sili about his confusion post? Or did you feel like mentioning it in the one post was enough for people to form their own opinions?

[BFG]

Yates - this should be preceeded with the fact that I almost always find Yates scummy and don't really know how to read his meta as either town or mafia and as such I wanted to give some time before I dug in.

 

However, there is some early stuff that pings - first his waiting on Tress/Thane, unless there's some out of game stuff I don't understand (sortalikea #ALLIANCELITE) which reads oddly given I'm pretty sure he's against the #ALLIANCE.

 

Before I get caught up in the Cass/Yates Darthe/Kiv argument, can one (or better still both) confirm that although Darthe started it, town ran with it? Otherwise Yates statement about sitting in the mafia QT laughing about it is a lie (I couldn't find a link to the mafia QT to check for myself) and I wonder what the point of the argument was other than an exercise in futility. It reminds me a little of Yates participating in a redundant argument with Cory in Discworld in order to garner sympathy.

 

I also don't understand the point of post 111 and how it fit into thread flow - forgot Darthe was mafia (fair enough), town COULD have started it (surely the point here is that they DIDN'T, why bring up hypotheticals) and what does being lynched as a possible GF have to do with anything. I could have just been tired when I got to that post, but it read very awkwardly to me.

 

Then there's the pocket discussion :/ I, again, don't understand the point that's being made. Can you share your definition of pocketing and white knighting? Why are you trying to coax Thane into town telling? If you don't know his alignment shouldn't you watch and see what he does naturally? As a side note from this; the 'tinfoil' debate that you weren't planning on bringing up - why not?

 

I really don't like Yates saying that he never called Sili mafia outside the reaction test :/ Yates has been reticent about reads this game and I don't know why. But beyond this, assuming that from reaction test he means the Cass/Sili link which if I recall he thought Cass's reaction was ok and less happy with Sili's. But if he thought Sili was town then what was the whole linking me and Sili thing about? Most of the time he devoted to that was spent trying to show that Sili had TMI on me, with a brief mention of the tinfoil stuff, which he wasn't planning on bringing up. What's the point in spending time LINKING Sili and I if he doesn't even think Sili's scummy? With a sidenote of the fact that I don't think I've ever seen Yates 'hunt' this way as either alignment, so I genuinely don't know what he's doing here. Keep in mind that at this stage his ONLY reads link Cass to Sili (then said that Cass looks good) and then me to Sili. He's promised us a read on Thane and that's it.

 

I'll ISO him, but if the only reads he's given at this stage (and I'm pretty sure they are) link Cass and I to Sili, then I REALLY don't understand the point of this waffling on Sili - if he thought Sili was mafia then don't bother waffling now, if he didn't then why is he looking for links to Sili specifically before there have even been any flips?

 

The fact that as of halfway through Day 1 I was nullish I think on his list and that the only thing he seems to be accounting for is a 'possible' link with Sili, who he's 'not even calling mafia', at this stage is really troubling, I'd already generated more stuff, been more involved/present in this game than I've managed in quite a long time, and in recent games he's been able to read me, or tried to with far less - even when he's been wrong, he's had an opinion so this lack of opinion is worrying.

 

When asked for mafia reads he gives a POE that basically takes Clov & Cass out of the equation, which isn't the same thing at all (although given the discussion I skimmed this morning about leans/reads/etc I think this is going to make me want to hit my head against a brick wall).

 

He then has Thane/Tress as in the POE list because of low content. This is interesting for 2 reasons, first he moves Tress to dark green after not to many more posts from her and doesn't explain where the dark green read comes from, but since I'm not convinced he ever really explains his read on Cass and Clov, it perhaps shouldn't be surprising. Sili is moved to light green apparantly based off my arguments??? - Cass I think he says is paranoid in a good way (concur mostly), Clov is approaching the game as town Clov - but this isn't backed up with anything even approaching a specific). Second low content from Thane isn't null and he's indicated since that he KNOWS this. He forgot about Jmm, but lots of people did and he flipped town so there is that.

 

In response to Sili says he hasn't built a case on anyone - again this is not the Town Yates I know :/

 

I also don't like that he got the numbers wrong about there being a vig in an 8 person game losing the game N1 if they hit town and lynch town Day 1. This is fairly basic numbers, that he shouldn't make a mistake on. He did correct himself on the vig/cop/doc question, but I'm assuming it was after he saw Tress's response, and it reads to me like he's looking for something to disagree on.

 

 

Over all I'm not liking Yates play so far, but I honestly don't know how much of what I don't like falls under my apparantly unconditional Yates paranoia and Clov, who reads him better is town reading him seemingly fairly comfortably, so I'm a bit stuck here as I'm not sure why - he says Yates is willing to work with Clov, but didn't he brush off Sili earlier for the same question (I need to ISO)?

 

There actually seems to almost be 'too much' for this to be mafia Yates

[BFG]

TLDR:

 

Sili/Clov/Cass still probably town (with caveats)

 

Thane

- why do I feel like you don't care about/aren't puzzle solving this game?

 

Tress

- You forgot about Jmm, fair enough but why say I'm null and ignore Yates since you're saying he was null as well, and you hadn't forgotten him and please just give us more (hope you're feeling better and the weekend helped)!

 

Yates

- I STILL don't understand why you were basing your reads off linking me and Cass to Sili, ESPERCIALLY if you're going to claim that you never called Sili mafia. Given that the majority of your TMI posts over 'page 7' were directed at him, what was the point?

 

- Can you explain in simple words what you meant by pocketing/White Knighting Thane since I don't understand the purpose of that discussion with Clov?

 

- how does your being lynched as a possible GF have anything to do with your discussion with Cass about Darthe/Kiv?

 

- Why were you wanting to keep schtum on the 'tinfoil' argument that Clov made? Why are so many of your thoughts being kept to yourself?

 

- What makes Tress dark green in your list?

 

- Can you explain what you mean by Clov is approaching this game in a Town!Clov way

 

- Why was Thane null in your list for low content when you apparantly think that low content is a mafia tell of Thanes?

 

 

 

I feel like Yates is spending a fair amount of his time talking about nothing, and this is frustrating from a player than normally has strong stances and is capable of taking a leadership role. The problem is that the stuff he's saying about Thane is true, and Thane is also 'going after' Yates, so that's ugh. I'm also a bit worried that I don't really understand some of his posts or that they seem quite convoluted.

 

 

 

 

Can the people town reading Yates give their opinion on the above as well? (I suspect this is how Cass felt wrt Sili Day 1 and possibly still does)

[BFG]

I also think that people had addressed stuff to me?

 

Cass - the vig/cop/doc thing is to try and figure out how people are feeling about others. I'm not asking if they're a vig/cop or doc :) I also can't do anything about when I'm around to post - I can post when I'm not at work, so I will try to post every evening, and most mornings /shrug I can't do all nighters on a mafia game as I need to be awake the next day for work, and I can't access the internet at all when I'm at work. Also, there's no reason for you to think my 'meta' on Sili is going to be better, I have a couple of his town games, one mafia game and a game where he started as town and ended as mafia to work with.

 

If there was anything else I missed it, sorry :/

[BFG]

Ok starting with Day 2 but I'll have a tab open so I can answer questions/talk/chat :)

[Sili Quirrels]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I dont think i would read me as a wolf if i knew me so i dont see what u see tress.

 

I might have agreed with you prior to seeing you wolf recently. But since I have? I'm Team-Tina on this. It's early. Just be you.

I think Yates was fielding for responses... like, the pairings were absurd.

Objectively you look very good if I flip scum.

 

 

 

A couple of thoughts here:

1. Let's say for the sake of argument that you are correct about me "fielding for responses." Now I know that you are already aware of it and adjusting responses accordingly. Plus, you haven't actually responded to the connection/accusation other than to acknowledge it and claim the "pairings were absurd." I'd really like it if you could stop being so guarded [like you have something to hide] and just freestyle rap wit me a bit.

2. The pairings aren't absurd to me. Your interaction didn't look like the interaction of two people that don't know each other's alignments. I happen to agree with Cass on one point; the way you treated her vs. the way you treated Clov was very different. Would you please [and thank you in advance] explain the rationale there in a way that makes some sense to me?

3. That "if I flip scum" stuff always pings. Rhetorical question: You don't know if you will flip scum or not? That's why your answer to question #2 will help me decide if we can frolic in the stream of Equestria together or if you need to be sent to the glue factory to be turned into glitter paste.

 

 

Even though I'm trying to consider things without tinfoil on you Sili... The bold. I don't think you've answered this, and it still bugs me... can you explain?

 

i already answered it. i said something like i wasn't obligated to read everyone the same way.

 

guess i don't understand where the question is coming from. is there a reason i should have read two different posts from two different people the same way?

 

 

For context, the original point being referred to wasn't that you should have read two different posts from two different people the 'same way'.

It was a concern that you reacted differently in game to essentially the same event. (The event being somebody suggesting they thought you were/asking ITT if you were scum). And that this seemed inconsistent and potentially more indicative of scum play than something that would come from Town.

 

Original WoT quote-chopped down to the specific point, with spoilers removed:

 

 

- Clov asks straight out if Sili ate the cake. Sili's response (without giving a real reason/proper explanation) is that he gets the impression that Clov is a Wolf, but when I do almost the exact same thing and ask straight out if he's wilfing again, his response is that his confidence in me as Town has increased. It's inconsistent, and it pings. (Also, this is what first makes me wonder if Sili-Clov are W-W creating distance...)

Sili, did you eat the cake?  Be honest.

 

  

I am not a party killer. But your response is.

 

  

Yeah, so I might have been to abrupt before... I was on mobile... but clov, I'm getting the impression you're a wolf.

 

  

 

 

 

Cass, have you played a lot of scum? could you link me?

 

None! I'm still (somewhat nervously) awaiting my first rand as scum... For now I'm honestly still quite happy to just keep being Town and keep learning/figuring out how to solve the puzzles!!

TBH though Sili, I find this question slightly odd coming from you, considering that you've played both of the two only 'extended' games I've been in and I mentioned this in the sign up thread when Tina asked if I'd played before. You should already know that I've only been Town...

Even though you say you've got me as Town, my gut's wondering if you're trying to set me up as scum... Yes, it's early and I may already have a habit of always reading you as scum, but still...

I like my gut *g*

You wilfing against me again?

  

tl;dr - all reads are tentative, but some more than others.

 Also, my confidence in Cass went up with her last post.

 

 

 

Event: Clov asks if you ate the cake / Effectively straight out asks if you're playing scum

Reaction: You point out that you think he's a wolf

 

Event: I ask you if you're wilfing against me again / Effectively straight out ask you if you're playing scum

Reaction: You point out that your 'confidence in me' 'went up'

 

Boil it down to gameplay and it equals: same event, different reaction.

 

I can kind of see your point if you're suggesting you were working on nothing but tone, but strictly gameplay, removing what you profess are 'reads' (presumably based on tone) at the time, it feels like an inconsistency that may be more indicative of 'opportunistic' scum than Town.

 

Inconsistencies based on 'opportunities' help pinpoint wolves IMO, which is why I pointed it out.

 

Make more sense?They are different structures on a later page by 2 very different ppl. Its clearly a tone read, ya. Also way i remember it was u said a lot more than asking if i was a wolf.

 

Dunno why theyd be content reads or even thought of in that light so early.

[Sili Quirrels]

 

Maybe there are no wolves and the nk was random.

Are you serious?This had been addressed already.I quoted the OP that says we are looking for naughty ponIES - plural.I feel like I'm reliving that "maybe there are no scum" argument with Kivam that drove me nuts.

no im not serious lol

[Thane Vakarian]

checked the last couple of messages.

Hiyas BFG I don't know why you feel i don't want to solve. I had some luck today to get in the thread and get some thoughts out there. Tomorrow, i work a different shift, so i might get more time for the game. Which is good.

[Thane Vakarian]

only in for a couple of minutes, got some kiddos to take care of

[BFG]

 

What are you even saying? Of course I have an idea of who to start with, but suspicions do not equate to reads. the names i gave, all 4, were suspects: i.e. people I wanted to check out.

 

I would argue the exact opposite.  If I say "I'm suspicious of Tina", that basically implies she's a scum candidate.  If I say "I'm not suspicious of Cory", there's the implication I think he's town.  But whatever.  I'm not going to spend more time getting into an argument on the differences on between reads/leans/opinions.

 

ok, I actually agree with you about the implications of stuff being implied, but why didn't you take it up with Yates earlier when he did something similar?

 

 

The problem I have is that if you're reading Sili strongly enough to use that as a basis for linking mafia suspects (even if you later move on) why aren't you voting? This lack of conviction from you is very disconcerting :/

As I sort of explained to Sili, I'm really just using relationships to inform my tone reads. I'm not even sure I've called Sili scum outside of my reaction fish.

 

[BFG]

checked the last couple of messages.

 

Hiyas BFG I don't know why you feel i don't want to solve. I had some luck today to get in the thread and get some thoughts out there. Tomorrow, i work a different shift, so i might get more time for the game. Which is good.

Haven't read today yet, that was all from Day 1. Thread's been busy, so I hope my thoughts will change :)

[Thane Vakarian]

yeah, sorry about spamming the thread so much

[Songstress]

 

Have I explained to your satisfaction?

Not really. I think your explanation is that you were still pursuing Sili and wondering if I felt like you weren't. I acknowledge that you called him a scum lean and challenged him on mechanics theory. However, I don't think you were clear about what I was asking you. So with that more clear; is there a reason you didn't follow up with Sili about his confusion post? Or did you feel like mentioning it in the one post was enough for people to form their own opinions?

 

 

1) I got distracted by a shiny object.

 

2) Sili kept giving me other things to question him on, so I kept asking him more questions on those instead of doubling back.

 

3) Big shiny object.

[Thane Vakarian]

 

 

Have I explained to your satisfaction?

Not really. I think your explanation is that you were still pursuing Sili and wondering if I felt like you weren't. I acknowledge that you called him a scum lean and challenged him on mechanics theory. However, I don't think you were clear about what I was asking you. So with that more clear; is there a reason you didn't follow up with Sili about his confusion post? Or did you feel like mentioning it in the one post was enough for people to form their own opinions?

 

 

1) I got distracted by a shiny object.

 

2) Sili kept giving me other things to question him on, so I kept asking him more questions on those instead of doubling back.

 

3) Big shiny object.

 

and i swear there was a squirrel in here somewhere....

[BFG]

Thane & bfg maybe?

 

 

 

Thane & bfg maybe?

I think you're wrong on BFG. Thane is a possible, but I'm more likely to think he's being set up.

 

[Songstress]

 

 

 

Have I explained to your satisfaction?

Not really. I think your explanation is that you were still pursuing Sili and wondering if I felt like you weren't. I acknowledge that you called him a scum lean and challenged him on mechanics theory. However, I don't think you were clear about what I was asking you. So with that more clear; is there a reason you didn't follow up with Sili about his confusion post? Or did you feel like mentioning it in the one post was enough for people to form their own opinions?

 

 

1) I got distracted by a shiny object.

 

2) Sili kept giving me other things to question him on, so I kept asking him more questions on those instead of doubling back.

 

3) Big shiny object.

 

and i swear there was a squirrel in here somewhere....

 

 

Darn squirrel probably ate the cake.

[BFG]

yeah, sorry about spamming the thread so much

all good :) 10-15 pages is probably the perfect amount for me to catch up on.

[Thane Vakarian]

 

 

 

 

Have I explained to your satisfaction?

Not really. I think your explanation is that you were still pursuing Sili and wondering if I felt like you weren't. I acknowledge that you called him a scum lean and challenged him on mechanics theory. However, I don't think you were clear about what I was asking you. So with that more clear; is there a reason you didn't follow up with Sili about his confusion post? Or did you feel like mentioning it in the one post was enough for people to form their own opinions?

 

 

1) I got distracted by a shiny object.

 

2) Sili kept giving me other things to question him on, so I kept asking him more questions on those instead of doubling back.

 

3) Big shiny object.

 

and i swear there was a squirrel in here somewhere....

 

 

Darn squirrel probably ate the cake.

 

are you implying third party?

[BFG]

 

Mixed feelings are understandable, but I don't see how you can't have some sort of idea on which way you want to go (ie reads), unless you're not trying to figure people's alignments out.  Just offering up names when somebody asks doesn't get us anywhere and it makes YOU harder to read for the rest of us.

 

^^  *nod*

 

The thing that's really bothering me right now is that he's refusing to be accountable for his reads - to the point of denying that they ARE reads.

 

I knew I'd missed this :/ same question as Clov, why didn't you bring it up with Yates earlier?

[BFG]

Hotel's just brought up cake (given the theme it seemed relevant)

[Niniel]

I want chocolate cake! I guess I could make some hot chocolate. Yes, I think I´ll do that. 

[BFG]

I'm fighting off a cold and drained after 6+ hours of NFL Playoffs and chores. So I'm too lazy to do my typical Yates quote then respond thing...

 

@Cass - I understand that you think I'm buddying you. That's fine. Just be sure to keep two pieces of information in mind as you evaluate that opinion; 1. I have you solid Town for reasons already stated [primarily a level of effort/paranoia/game solving that I can't see being faked by a 1st time scum] and 2. This is a be nice game. I feel like I've been buddying everyone. It's unnatural...

 

@Sili - Serious question; why did you say this: "don't know why the wolves thought jmm would be a power role?" You are a clever pony and I'd like some help understanding your motivation here.

 

@Clov - I think your argument with Sili wrt Thane is [was?] a misunderstanding. It looks like you two may have worked it out but I'm going to give you my impression anyway since I wasn't here to interact/intercede in real time. Sili is saying that Thane didn't bother "reading" JMM, he just saw something he considered a PR hint and dropped all suspicion entirely. I happen to agree with this narrative. Thane said he was "cautious" of JMM having never played with him [in post 98]. Then Thane voted JMM "on a hunch" in post 308 - but never really explained how he got there since the only scum reads he *had* explained at the time were on you and Sili. JMM made his "You will not be happy with the result if you lynch me" post in post 311. Then in post 328 Thane unvotes saying "By what you hint, jmm, you're valuable to town.... if i can understand that, so can the wolves." You were asserting that Thane choosing to believe JMM means Thane decided to read JMM as Town. But I agree with Sili that it wasn't actually a "read" so much as Thane saw a PR hint and decided to abandon the wagon. I actually *am* [usually] the Thane whisperer and I don't recall him accepting PR hints as reason enough to abandon a scum read unless others abandoned first. So, I share in Sili's concern. Otherwise, I like where your head is at.

 

@Thane - Am I wrong about what I just said? I feel like you don't typically accept PR hints on your scum suspects at face value. PR claims? Maybe a different story... What made you bail on JMM? Also, is there something preventing you from posting as often as you typically do? This is a small game so your thoughts and opinions are really super important to share. Like, more important than in the larger games that you were much more active in. I miss you.

 

@Tress - Two questions for you, my lovely: 1. Would you mind explaining to me your read on BFG? I think you have more experience with her than I do and I'd like to know what you are seeing. And 2. Would you mind explaining your Thane read a little more as well? I'm a little confused as I read through your progression on him because sometimes it looks to me like you think he's scum but then you also say he is likely being "set up."

 

@BFG - You are a pretty pony. Won't you come out and play?

This to you? Why say that you didn't want to talk about the 'tinfoil' thing that Clov brought up

[BFG]

Also I think you've been in all of my recent games, I had a sort of break over Summer and haven't played as much recently

[BFG]

But I'm here :)