Dark One's Reluctance to Kill Rand

[jmm]

I am currently on my 3rd read through of this wonderful series, and I once again have had time to ponder one of the deeper mysteries the books entail:

 

• Why is the Dark One seemingly reluctant to kill Rand, at least early on?  Does he have some sort of Palpatine syndrome where he wants to convert rand, or maybe a Voldemort syndrome where he wants to be the one to personally kill Rand?  

It's pretty obvious the Forsaken could have ended the series somewhere around, oh, say page 1.  Clearly Rand's got people at least semi-aware of who he is from the very start (dat myrddraal), and with the emergence of the Forsaken in the first few books, it wouldn't have been to hard for one to jump out of a gateway, pop ol' Randy with slice of Balefire pie, and call it a day.  It also becomes clear that the Forsaken are largely not allowed to kill Rand for at least the first 8 or so books, and that none try to except crazy Ishamael and rogues like Sammael.  He certainly has enough of them that hate and/or fear him, so it's not like they wouldn't have picked him off already if they could have. 

This is probably less of a factual argument than a hypothesizing exercise, unless someone remembers some exceptionally relevant lines of texts from one of the later books which I am simply forgetting at this point.  So, what is your take upon the Dark One's though process here? 

 

Disclaimer:  I'm sure this has been discussed before and elsewhere probably several times, but I couldn't find anything recent, so I'm bringing it up again.  If there is a recent topic along the same lines, please point me to it.  Thanks!   

 

[mb]

From what I skimmed of Memory of Light, the Dark One seemed to not care whether Rand (or any of the 3 taveren) lived or died; only thing He seemed to care about was breaking Light side's spirit.

 

from what I recall of the series, these Forsaken faced Rand in sort of a duel::

1. Ishamael.  books 1-3.

2. Balal.  book 3, shortly before Ishamael.

3. Asmodean.  book 4.

4. Lanfear.  book 5.

5. Rahvin.  book 5.

6. Sammael.  book 7.

7. Osangar.  books 8 & 9.

Do not recall any other face-to-face attempts by Forsaken than those.

Several Forsaken ordered Darkfriends to kill Rand; 2 in book 9 (Demandred, Moridin), 1 in last book (Cyndane or Hessalam).

All other attempts by any Forsaken to kill Rand seem to be through Shadowspawn.

[jmm]

For the most part though, they fought rand because

1. They were insane (Ishamael or Lanfear when she goes nuts)
2. They were acting on their own accord outside of the DO's orders (Sammael, Osangar)
3. Rand came after them and thus forced them into self-defense (Belal, Rahvin, Asmodean)

There are many times when the Forsaken talk about how to check Rand's power instead of how to kill him.  They often seem afraid to go after Rand so as not to draw the DO's displeasure upon them, and they are worried Rand may become Nae'blis instead of them, which implies the DO has at least hinted something of the sort may occur, which makes me think he may have told them or implied to them he didn't want Rand dead.  

[Sabio]

The Do wanted to destroy hope, make people lose hope and surrender.  That was his idea of victory. Simply killing everyone wasn't what the DO wanted since that's not what he considered winning.  Killing Rand might mean the shadow might win, but to the DO that was still losing.  Victory to the DO was people begging for mercy and giving up.  

[jmm]

The Do wanted to destroy hope, make people lose hope and surrender.  That was his idea of victory. Simply killing everyone wasn't what the DO wanted since that's not what he considered winning.  Killing Rand might mean the shadow might win, but to the DO that was still losing.  Victory to the DO was people begging for mercy and giving up.  

Could it possibly be that the DO wanted a bunch of people to follow Rand and recognize him as their only hope, and then kill him so as to destroy as much hope as possible?  

[Sphinx]

Wow, sorry for the long post, but as I was typing, I kept thinking of new theories :) However I'm guessing readers of WoT can not only handle, but probably salivate over walls of text.

 

*****Spoiler Warning*****

 

1. The Nature of the Dark One. 

When you think about what the Dark One does, he doesn't necessarily destroy outright, he corrupts. So take for example the Blight, it isn't a dead wasteland, it is full of life, but it is all corrupted. Another example could be the taint, his touch doesn't outright kill the users of saidin, it drives them insane, corrupting them. I think if the Dark One has a favored way of doing things, it is to corrupt the things that are best in the world, and twist them into corrupted forms of themselves. So take his favored servants - all were powerful and mighty channellers, many of whom were heroes of the Light - he twisted them into monsters, the most extreme example being Ishmael, who was called the Betrayer of Hope. 

 

So if you believe the core motivation of the Dark One is to corrupt, what would be the most tantalizing prize in existence for him? The dragon - who not only is the greatest hero for the light, and his greatest enemy, but the sort of personal avatar of the Creator. I believe the Dark One's ultimate goal was not to kill Rand, but to corrupt him - and he did spend most of the series trying to do so, very nearly succeeding in driving Rand to destroy the world himself. This, I think, is a much greater victory to the Dark One, than doing so himself. 

 

Another interesting thing to consider is: we are given hints that the Dark One exists on multiple dimensions and at multiple times. If this is true, than we can presume that the creator has provided multiple Dragon's to fight him in those dimensions. Perhaps the Dark One has succeeded in other dimensions, he has freed himself, and unmade them, and in doing so unmade parts of himself. I wonder if the Dark One really wants to be free. We are led to believe that the Dark One is sort of a primordial force in the universe, a force that is in direct opposition to the Creator. If he gets free, and just destroys everything, than what else is there for him to corrupt? Does his complete victory in destroying everything not result in his own existence, and need to exist, being erased?

 

2. The Nature of the Pattern

We are told constantly throughout the series that the Pattern weaves as the pattern wills. Rand himself, especially in TGS, battles with the inevitability of his life. He has no free will, he must merely act out the prophecies and meet his death. I think most readers would assume that the Pattern demands a Dragon to fight the Dark one at the Last Battle. But what if it is the other way around? What if the key to Last Battle even happening is the Dragon. Without a Dragon, the prophecies would never come to pass, and perhaps the circumstances for the Last Battle would not be right.

 

If you follow this line of reasoning, the Dark One might actually know that the only moment that he might actually win, is when the pattern allows the confrontation. The Dragon's ta'raven nature is necessary to bend chance in just the right ways to allow him to be free. What is the point of killing the Dragon, if he is the very key to your prison? If the Dark One, at least while imprisoned, is subject to the pattern, then he might actually want the Dragon to face him at the Last Battle, because it is only then that the pattern would allow the possibility of him being freed? Keep in mind, it was Rand who freed him in the end. 

 

3. Destroying the Dragon

We do not know much about the Creator - we can assume however that the voice that spoke to Rand at the end of EotW was the creator, and the Dragon is his/her Jesus/Avatar/Minion/Vessel. If this is true, perhaps the Dragon cannot be destroyed as lightly as we assume throughout the series. I am sure that Rand, as an incarnation of the Dragon, could be stabbed or killed or whatever, but I wonder if the Dragon could be balefired? I think if he were, than it would either result in a systemic shock from the sudden loss of the strongest ta'raven ever, which would essentially destroy the pattern itself, or would the Creator go apeshit and do something crazy?

 

Perhaps even allowing the chance of a crazy forsaken or darkfriend to try and destroy the dragon, would be too much of a risk for the dark one - because it would either piss off the Creator and risk something really dangerous happening, or crash the pattern and destroy the Dark One himself? Of course darkfriends and forsaken do go after Rand, but there does seem to be some decree from high to leave him alone. Perhaps the safe way, in the Dark One's mind, to fight the dragon, is through making him insane, from a distance, and not risking some dire thing happening to the fabric of reality. 

 

4. Touching the Creator. 

We never are given a depiction of what the Creator is, but we can assume he/she has a strong connection with the Dragon. I think the closest to an actual manifestation of the Creator in the series is the Dragon, particularly in the later books (post-TGS). I could never really decide if the light-ness protecting rand's mind when Nynaeve delved him for madness in ToM was from his love/bond to his women, or if it was some actual direct manifestation of the Creator's power. I lean towards the latter theory, as rand seems to have some deeper connection to the pattern and light post Dragonmount in TGS. If it IS the creator's work (the creator’s equivalent of the True Power) then it is to my knowledge, the only direct touch of the creator in the entire series. 

 

Therefore, perhaps the only way to directly strike at the Creator is through the Dragon. If the Dark One can use the Creator's vessel to attack him directly, he might be really, really reluctant to just have some servant kill the Dragon.

 The existence of the Dragon might tie into this theory. Why would the Creator even work through surrogates, instead of using his/her own power? A possible theory is that the Dragon is the glove which keeps his/her hand clean from the Dark One’s touch. If the Dark One could puncture the glove, then a direct touch could mean the corruption/ destruction of the creator.

 We have no proof that the Dark One unmaking/destroying/corrupting the world of Randland would have any effect on the Creator at all. There might be uncountable realities and dimensions that the Creator and the Dark One battle across, and destroying one of the dimensions is actually insignificant to the Dark One's true purpose, which is to kill the Creator. 

 

5. Ishmael/ Modrin

The other possibility, and this last one might be very likely, is that Ishmael arrived at any of the conclusions above (or perhaps a million others). If I remember correctly, he was a philosopher and it was for philosophical reasons that he joined the Shadow. If he believed that the Dragon was necessary for whatever reason, be it right or wrong, than he may have been reluctant to kill Rand, and ordered the agents of the Shadow to not touch him. He say's a couple of times in the series that Rand will eventually serve him. It could be for as simple a reason as that; he wanted Lews Therin to lick his boots before he killed him.

 

6. Ta'raven

I'm sometimes awed by how clever RJ's invention of Ta'raven was. It is an inbuilt plot mechanic to explain away the extremely unlikely, to bend luck and chance to serve the author - the ultimate suspension of the reader's belief. Why didn't they just kill Rand? Because he was extremely lucky, luckier than Mat. The pattern didn't allow for Rand to die until the right time. The pattern made it so Ishmael, and most of the forsaken, wanted to capture and twist rand more than outright kill him. 

To me, this is the least satisfying answer, but you have to give props to RJ for how bloody clever ta'raven is. It gives RJ so much space to plug up plot holes. Because within the whole metaphysics of the pattern and ta'raven that RJ set up, it is entirely plausible that Rand's ta'raven nature simply didn't allow people to either want to kill him outright, or succeed in doing so. 

[jmm]

I really like the point you brought up about the blight.  It's not a skeletal deadland, but very much alive and kicking. And eating. 
That corrupting nature of the DO seems to be the main reason most people bring up...

 

 

 

I enjoyed reading your post, thanks for some things to think on!

[Sphinx]

Thanks for the interesting question mate!

[Suttree]

Few things.

 

1. Balefire is not the eternal death of the soul. The Dragon soul would still be reborn eventually.

 

2. We know from RJ that the Dragon soul has been "corrupted" by the DO in the past.

 

3. The DO has won victories in the past but not a "ultimate victory". Killing Rand wouldn't bring that about.

[Sabio]

Ok this might have spoilers.

 

In the last book Rand says "You cannot fathom it, can you?  It is beyond you.  You break us and still we fight why?  Haven't you ruined us?  Haven't you killed us? 

 

Then he goes on to say "You cannot win unless we give up, That's it, Isn't it?  This fight isn't about a victory in battle.  Taking me..... It was never about beating me , IT WAS ABOUT BREAKING ME.  That's what you tried to do with all of us.  Its why at times you tried to have us killed, while other times you didn't seem to care.  You win when you break us.  But you haven't, you can't. 

 

 

That's the ultimate victory for the DO, not just killing everyone, or even killing Rand.  The DO more then anything the DO wants to break peoples spirits and hope.  As sutree said the DO has won before, and has turned the dragon.  But regardless people always fight the DO to the end, he has never broken them.

[mb]

about the Dark One existing in multiple dimensions/times and he being freed in some of them, I am not sure on either.  According to Verin, He exists in the worlds of the Portal Stones.  And according to her, becoming free in one world would cause Him to be free in all those worlds; and that he remains bound in all those worlds as long as he is bound in any one world.  Dragon Reborn chapter 27 on each of those.  I doubt Verin would lie about those things.

 

about a True Power equivalent for the Light, the closest (and only) seems to be the One Power.  Though it seems to me that both the Creator and the Dark One have a respective power greater than channeling that does not exist in anyone else.

 

about the Dragon soul being the Creator's avatar, I am not so sure.  "champion" seems more accurate than "avatar".  An avatar of something/someone would have all the power of the something/someone; a champion is simply the something's/someone's representative.

[Barid Bel Medar]

This is an interesting question that still remains interesting after the series has ended. 

 

I believe that it essentially because the DO cannot achieve victory without the Dragon soul being present at the Last Battle. Killing the Dragon soul, the pattern would weave another solution - not as good, but still prevents the DO from winning - as we have it from RJ who has said even with the Dragon's death/turning, it is not a complete victory. 

 

Rather than a champion of the Creator - as RJ has said the Dragon has no direct connection with the creator - beyond a few words of encouragement perhaps - the Dragon is the champion of the world - or the Pattern. This is more likely, not only from RJ's quotes about the Creator/Rand, but in the fact that 'the Dragon is one with the Land.' His very being affects the earth around him, either corrupting or healing depending on his emotional state. In aMoL Rand briefly thinks about how he can feel the earth dying like it was his own pain. 

 

If we take this into account along with Sabio's aMoL quote about breaking Rand, the DO's goal seems to be driving Rand - the champion of the earth/Pattern - to despair and ground into dust, turning him into something like Moridin, who wishes for NOTHINGNESS. If Rand succumbed to that, it seems that the results would be devastating. 

 

Turning the Dragon, which has happened, doesn't seem to work. I suspect that it doesn't because a corrupted Dragon would want power and glory much like the Forsaken, who are good pawns, but do not serve the true plans of the DO. What the DO wants seems to be total surrender of hope, not hope in being exalted and raised up by the DO.  Whatever the reason may be, it seems corrupting the Dragon doesn't work in any case. 

 

It could also be completely different. The DO has played this game for countless turnings of the Wheel. Ishamael seems to remember fighting the Dragon multiple times, with different strategies. Mesaana in LoC thinks the DO's plan is risky, but could work  if they pull it off. It could be as simple as the DO attempting a new strategy learned from previous encounters and failures. It could be that in a previous turning, the DO had Rand killed off at page 2, without success, and now tries something else. After all, to the DO, it is a game. The DO will be there the next time the bore is opened, no matter how 'this' battle ends up - as Ishamael says, it doesn't matter if they win this time, they'll eventually win in the end. (Although this may not be accurate.) Thus, the DO can play around with whatever strategies knowing he'll get a new chance next time. 

[Sphinx]

Few things.

 

1. Balefire is not the eternal death of the soul. The Dragon soul would still be reborn eventually.

 

2. We know from RJ that the Dragon soul has been "corrupted" by the DO in the past.

 

3. The DO has won victories in the past but not a "ultimate victory". Killing Rand wouldn't bring that about.

 

I thought balefire was eternal death??? That you were literally unmade, and removed from the pattern? Is this not the case? Isn't there something similar in that if you die in the world of dreams, it is the final death? And you don't ever come back? Or are you saying, the Dragon is not necessarily the same soul each time, and if Rand got balefired, his soul would be removed, and the pattern would just pick another soul to be dragon? 

 

My theory about the balefire is throwaway regardless, because (i had forgotten this) the DO pretty much tells Demandred he can balefire the dragon in the opening to LoC.

 

about the Dark One existing in multiple dimensions/times and he being freed in some of them, I am not sure on either.  According to Verin, He exists in the worlds of the Portal Stones.  And according to her, becoming free in one world would cause Him to be free in all those worlds; and that he remains bound in all those worlds as long as he is bound in any one world.  Dragon Reborn chapter 27 on each of those.  I doubt Verin would lie about those things.

 

about a True Power equivalent for the Light, the closest (and only) seems to be the One Power.  Though it seems to me that both the Creator and the Dark One have a respective power greater than channeling that does not exist in anyone else.

 

about the Dragon soul being the Creator's avatar, I am not so sure.  "champion" seems more accurate than "avatar".  An avatar of something/someone would have all the power of the something/someone; a champion is simply the something's/someone's representative.

 

Okay, so to your point about the True power/ One power discussion: are you saying that you think that: True Power= DO, One Power= Creator, and then they both have some sort "respective powers greater than channeling", like for example the DO resurrecting people, alter the weather and pattern? 

 

If so, what do you think the 'lightness' protecting Rand from madness was in ToM. I always assumed it was a direct intervention from the creator? And for that matter, what is the darkness? I always assumed it was TP, but perhaps that doesn't make sense, because Nynaeve wouldn't see the weaves? Is the darkness and light just a sensory manifestation for the 'delver' to be able to see madness? Or is it just the OP? Or is it those 'respective greater powers?" 

 

If the OP comes from the creator, why wouldn't he/she deny it to the greatest enemies of the light? I always looked at it like the OP came from the pattern and was neutral, and TP came from DO, meaning that there would be something coming from the Creator as equivalent. 

 

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts about this. 

 

I agree about the champion rather than avatar, I just couldn't find the right word.

 

 

My multi-verse theory was kind of expanding out from the portal stone worlds. If I remember from correctly, those worlds were like shadows of the real world (rand's world). They were kind of like different versions of the same world, but if things had gone differently. But if the DO wasn't freed in the real world, he wouldn't be free any of the shadow copy-worlds. Those shadow worlds seemed to be fundamentally similar to Rand's world. What I was kind of postulating was that the DO exists on whole different levels of reality, and the confrontation between the DO and the Creator happened on all of these levels. 

 

In LoC, it is sort of implied (at least to me) that the DO isn't just constantly sentient and conscious of Rand's world and time - that he was existing in multiple realities simultaneously. The reason my mind went down this route, is that, if there is only one true world, and the dark one is completely focused on Rand's world, then he is kinda bad at getting free... If he is this godlike force that seeks to destroy hope, how can he keep failing again and again if his only focus is on Rand's reality? There are so many points at which the entire side of the light could have fallen apart, it just seems like a massive coincidence, that they would always, time after time, get their shit together in order to repel him.

 

I mean think about it. If anything had happened to almost all of the main characters, they would have failed. So for example, Min falls over, stabs herself through her head with one her knifes, Rand looses it, game over. How can something like that not have happened at some point in the eternal turning of the ages. People are saying that the Dragon has failed before (according to RJ) but people kept their faith, and managed to win. But if the DO final victory requires everyone loosing hope, what the hell is the point of the Dragon? The significance of the Dragon's role seems really overstated, if literally the only way to loose to the DO, is to have everyone loose complete hope. There's always going to be some guy, no matter how grim things get, who is utterly delusional and thinks things will work out. 

 

So it seems to me, that if there is only one real world and only one last battle happening every couple of thousand years, then it means either that the DO is super incompetent, because he hasn't ever managed to disrupt the last battle ever. OR the light has such an advantage that that the Dragon becomes rather insignificant. I was looking at it like the DO had to try and free himself on a whole bunch of levels of reality, and Rand's reality was just one of those. 

 

Anyway, yes it is an interesting discussion. The whole pattern/ta'veren metaphysic solves many problems, but the cyclical nature of time in the books also causes problems. I guess its just hard for me to swallow that if the Rand world's last battle was the only confrontation in the entire universe between the shadow and light that had any significance, and they are battling a god/force thing, that they would never loose at some point. 

[Sabio]

I thought that about balefire too, that if you got hit by it your soul was gone forever.  But it just removes what you did from the pattern for a certain time, your soul is still there.  The reason the DO can't bring someone back from balefire is because at the time you died to balefire you might actually of died 30 minutes before (depending on the strength of the balefire).  So the Do can't locate the soul.  But the soul can still be reborn at some time.  The soul isn't permanently removed from the pattern.  LTT would still be reborn again even if balefired.

 

Only way I could see LTT not being born again is if the DO could take the soul and keep stuffing it into other bodies so you never had a chance to actually be reborn.  But doubt the DO could do that to someone against their will.  I think for the DO to have  any power on your soul you have to willingly give in to him.

 

Not sure if the OP is from the creator or not,if it was he wouldn't deny its use to anyone because the creator won't take a direct hand in things.  He won't deny its use because the one big theme of the series is Free will.  Myself I don't think the OP come from him.  Reason the last battle only happens ever few thousand years is because of the wheel.  Now that he is sealed away enough time must pass before the world forgets the DO exists and then someone will drill a hole into his prison again.  Sure if a few hundred people are defiant the Do would be cool with that, I would think if he got 99% of the world to lose hope and stop fighting he would take that. 

[Sphinx]

Wow I never knew that about the mechanics of balefire and the DO bringing them back. Very cool!

[Sabio]

I thought the same thing but in another topic some time ago I asked if the Dragon is so tired of things or even Ishy, couldn't they just walk about and balefire every person they saw.  Thus making sure no souls could be reborn ever again.  That when it was explained to me that balefire doesn't permanently remove a soul.  They can still be reborn at another time.

[jmm]

Another problem with that approach is the potential destruction the pattern itself, which to me seems like the end of existance. 

Both sides probably want to continue existing

[mb]

When I said "closest", I was telling that there was no exact equivalent.  not sure of the original source of the One Power; since saidin and saidar spin the Wheel.

Dark One's power; these things seem to be included::

-resurrecting of at least His followers

-weather

-moving of corridors/rooms and of mountains/hills

-ghosts

-miasma (bubbles of evil)

Creator's power; Moiraine seemed to imply that He could resurrect (Shadow Rising).  And I would guess that the capabilities of anything He created would also be included.

 

not sure if Rand was protected from madness/insanity or the taint.  not sure what the light was.

[wotfan4472]

The One Power comes from the True Source. Problem is, no one in the series has used this, unless it was used by Rand in lighting the pipe in AMoL. Which would require another process of channelling.

[Giantevilhead]

If this has happened countless times in the past and will happen again countless times in the future, then maybe the DO is trying a different strategy every time. It just happens that the strategy it's using this time requires the Dragon to live. Maybe the next time, the DO will just try to kill the Dragon at every opportunity.

[hankscorpio]

My thought is that if Rand was killed, the pattern would simply spin out a new Dragon. That's why there were so many false dragons before Rand proclaimed himself the Dragon Reborn. Perhaps if Rand had died at Winternight, Logain or Taim actually would have been the true Dragon. Thus, Rand had to survive at least until the Last Battle and then be defeated there to prevent a new Dragon from emerging.

 

That could also explain why they wanted Rand alive, but not Mat or Perrin. If Mat or Perrin die, Rand's chance of winning goes down drastically.

[mb]

The One Power comes from the True Source.

the One Power I take to be the manifestation of the True Source.  by "original source" I meant the entity that created it.

 

edit::

Rand's pipe lighting; my guess has been that it was due to his taveren-ness.

[Sabio]

Rand being LTT's reborn is the dragon, so if he died another living person like Logain couldn't suddenly become the new dragon.  The pattern would have to quickly spin out LTT but that would mean him being a baby again and thus missing everything. 

[hankscorpio]

True, but my belief about the pattern producing a new dragon comes from the fact that there were an increasing number of false dragons prior to Rand proclaiming himself, and once Rand proclaimed himself, the remaining false dragons were defeated and new ones stopped appearing. Perhaps Logain, Taim, and the other unnamed false dragon were something like "backup dragons".

[Sabio]

Its possible but then it comes down to how important are the prophecies?  Since Taim nor Logian wouldn't of been born on Dragonmount or have LTT's memories what would that  of meant?  They wouldn't of met the Aiel's prophecies either so would the aiel of followed the new "dragon"? They wouldn't of gotten the horn etc since both were too busy conquering to worry about such stuff.  One of them becoming the dragon would of pretty much of rendered the prophecies worthless.