[Standard] 11/10 Top Tier Vanilla+ Game Thread

[DPR]

 

 

 

This seems emo to me - it's a simple error and your quote isn't tagged. Either way, my point is that you choose to focus on a point with no evidence while simultaneously disregarding evidence on the table.

 

A little, but I disagree with your use of 'attack'. it implies hostility or conviction. neither of which are the case.

 

What do you mean by evidence? Tone reading a fishy post should be completely valid, and I wasn't aware I was disregarding anything.

 

 

Interesting that you are the second player to make mention of my adjectives.

 

If I comment that you have "attacked" a post, I'm dying that you chose a post and a point to object to and brought it up in thread. You attacked it. There might be a "soft attack" or a "hard attack", but it's an attack nonetheless.

 

If I comment that you are "shaming" another player, it means that you've use insulting verbiage to belittle their play or leaned on them as if you were more experienced than they are.

 

Personally, I find mincing words scummish.

 

If I say "evidence", I'm referring to an action by a player, documented, that can used to reference continuity later. 

 

"Tone reading" and hunches in general are speculation. They can be useful as guides - I have a few right now - but they are not submittable  in court.

 

In my experience, players that favor hunches over evidence find themselves at the wrong end of the noose or knife.

 

no, the point isn't to belabor word choice, but to elaborate on why I reacted the way i did - the words you used. i would say nudge, or speculate, in place of attack because they're more relevant and less hyperbolic.

.

in regards to the bolded, if you use words differently than i would then i'm going to ask what you mean so to facilitate a discussion.

 

i agree hunches are not pushes; they're closer to statements of intent. tone reading, however, is different. how someone responds and what they respond to are very key in an analysis since the content of a post  can be fabricated in forum mafia but tone and flow are difficult for wolfpack to imitate.

 

 

Are we agreed that semantics and posturing benefit scum more than town? 

 

Are we agreed that fact and evidence are more useful to the town than hunches and speculation? 

 

I'm fine to take you as you stand, but please define that stance. 

[Yates]

What does any of that have to do with the price of tea in China?

See post 893 above. Cass is a new player. Cass claims Monstr [her mentor] said Seer cover wasn't standard on this site. Sili also claimed Seer cover wasn't standard on this site. Since this has a direct bearing on how *I* am being read by Cass [and possibly others], I gave an explanation on where all this Seer cover stuff is coming from and illustrating that while this may be new for the site, this actually is NOT a foreign concept to this particular player base. A lot of words to say that Seer cover is null and likely to become "a thing" and not something that should be read as fishing - which is what I believe was being implied.

[Thane Vakarian]

@Darthe: Pral subs in here on page 36

[WWWwombat]

 

I think the people arguing against seer cover aren't looking at the circumstances of this game very carefully.  The main reason not to like seer cover is that it essentially gives the seer a shelf-life.  That being said, the setup of this game already puts the seer on a shelf life.  Town has two part-time vigs.  Mafia has two extra kills and a roleblocker.  Town does not have a doc but a jailkeeper (much less effective at protecting cops).  All of this means that not only is the seer more likely to die to nightkill, but once the seer hardclaims, he or she is unlikely to get another viewing off.

 

As for Yates hardclaiming to start the seer cover, that probably wasn't the best move on a site that isn't used to seer cover, but it's not something that makes him scum.  It's still a null-to-town move overall imo.

 

Personally, I didn't worry when Yates made the claim. 

 

I worry about all of the commentary after - the moves behind the moves.

 

Yates could have easily made the claim and let it be. If anyone asked, he could have explained it. Or, he could have explained it while he was doing it to try and get a thing started. I don't have a problem with any of that as it's up front and makes sense.

 

But, my radar pings when Des comes into to explain Yate's moves. Yet, a person could argue that Des takes it upon himself to explain everybody's moves. But, when Sili shows up and starts laying down the same rhetoric Des did (before Des had to back off and distance himself from it) I take notice.

 

And, when other players still bring it up, I take more notice. Dead horse and all that...

 

 

I didn't like how Des dealt with it at all.  He explained why it wasn't scummy but then said he doesn't think seer cover works very well.  Reads like trying to have his cake and eat it too.

[Sili Quirrels]

 

I think the people arguing against seer cover aren't looking at the circumstances of this game very carefully.  The main reason not to like seer cover is that it essentially gives the seer a shelf-life.  That being said, the setup of this game already puts the seer on a shelf life.  Town has two part-time vigs.  Mafia has two extra kills and a roleblocker.  Town does not have a doc but a jailkeeper (much less effective at protecting cops).  All of this means that not only is the seer more likely to die to nightkill, but once the seer hardclaims, he or she is unlikely to get another viewing off.

 

As for Yates hardclaiming to start the seer cover, that probably wasn't the best move on a site that isn't used to seer cover, but it's not something that makes him scum.  It's still a null-to-town move overall imo.

 

Personally, I didn't worry when Yates made the claim. 

 

I worry about all of the commentary after - the moves behind the moves.

 

Yates could have easily made the claim and let it be. If anyone asked, he could have explained it. Or, he could have explained it while he was doing it to try and get a thing started. I don't have a problem with any of that as it's up front and makes sense.

 

But, my radar pings when Des comes into to explain Yate's moves. Yet, a person could argue that Des takes it upon himself to explain everybody's moves. But, when Sili shows up and starts laying down the same rhetoric Des did (before Des had to back off and distance himself from it) I take notice.

 

And, when other players still bring it up, I take more notice. Dead horse and all that...

 

i don't know why it's a problem. it might be a 'dead horse' for you, but apparently some others are stuck on it,  so i thought i might resolve some of the confusion instead of letting cass or someone dwell on it.

 

also, my speel over the merits of seer cover are in response to questions asked by others, so your angle is kind of obtuse. people will stop asking about seer cover when they're on the same page. until then, the forum's new to it.

[DPR]

 

And, when other players still bring it up, I take more notice. Dead horse and all that...

By "other players" are you referring specifically to Cass? If so, Cass is a new player, just getting caught up, and asked about it. So I don't think this was a "dead horse" for someone that doesn't know the backstory, the strategy, or the meta of the players involved. I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

 

 

I was referring to Wombat (and the post I quoted). 

 

I have a question out on Cass and want to wait to discuss her play until it's answered.

 

I agree that it's a molehill, which is exactly why I question it being brought up over and over.

[Darthe]

*At this point, lagged 9 pages (haven't read them) and have ended up on p. 43* It's making me nervous because I can tell that I must have been the subject of some conversation but I haven't read why. Will comment on this and then go back. There will probably be a delay in replies.

 

 

 

Also, idk why people like Cass so much.  She seems very self-conscious.

I don't think that self-conscious is a bad thing for a newbie but I am not yet willing to town-read her either.  My main reason is that she looks over-coached.  It's kind of ironic that Arsis hasn't called her on it.  

 

 

Darthe, what do you mean by 'over-coached'? I gave an accurate account of what Monstr has done for me here in response to Thane's general question about how he'd been treating me. I will admit I've been reading up on the wiki and other sites like there's no tomorrow since I joined in sign up (to the detriment of my final Exam on Monday, actually), but I'm like that. The way I'm acting makes perfect sense to me, in the context of me  I like a good challenge, have an addictive personality, hate confusion and like to win. DICE and maybe even THANE can probably even vouch for this ... (Guys?)

The way you're playing seems fine so far, just not what I would expect from a green player.  Not even one with a coach.  I've been a mentor several times now and rarely does it show much in the way of results.  Now, perhaps that can be explained by your neuroses as you've reminded us but until I get a better feel for you I'm going to remain wary that you have too much general info and knowledge about the game for your level of experience.  Make sense?

[Thane Vakarian]

*At this point, lagged 9 pages (haven't read them) and have ended up on p. 43* It's making me nervous because I can tell that I must have been the subject of some conversation but I haven't read why. Will comment on this and then go back. There will probably be a delay in replies.

 

 

 

Also, idk why people like Cass so much.  She seems very self-conscious.

I don't think that self-conscious is a bad thing for a newbie but I am not yet willing to town-read her either.  My main reason is that she looks over-coached.  It's kind of ironic that Arsis hasn't called her on it.  

 

 

Darthe, what do you mean by 'over-coached'? I gave an accurate account of what Monstr has done for me here in response to Thane's general question about how he'd been treating me. I will admit I've been reading up on the wiki and other sites like there's no tomorrow since I joined in sign up (to the detriment of my final Exam on Monday, actually), but I'm like that. The way I'm acting makes perfect sense to me, in the context of me  I like a good challenge, have an addictive personality, hate confusion and like to win. DICE and maybe even THANE can probably even vouch for this ... (Guys?)

i can actually vouch for that. Epic shenannigans over in The Band of the Red Hand forum. Nothing from what i read from Cass here seems unlike her for now. 

[WWWwombat]

I think it's being brought up over and over because some townies are legit confused and the scum want to rolefish.  People need to play better.

[WWWwombat]

Would also be really nice if Pral could post more than a couple times every 24 hours.

[Darthe]

It'll never happen.  I've booted him from three games now for inactivity and he always says that's just how he plays.

[Darthe]

Don't know why I'm up this morning.

[Thane Vakarian]

insomnia?

[WWWwombat]

It'll never happen.  I've booted him from three games now for inactivity and he always says that's just how he plays.

 

That makes him a jerk.

[Darthe]

How are you able to respond that quickly yet can't give a simple explanation to a reads list you created?

[Sili Quirrels]

 

 

 

 

This seems emo to me - it's a simple error and your quote isn't tagged. Either way, my point is that you choose to focus on a point with no evidence while simultaneously disregarding evidence on the table.

 

A little, but I disagree with your use of 'attack'. it implies hostility or conviction. neither of which are the case.

 

What do you mean by evidence? Tone reading a fishy post should be completely valid, and I wasn't aware I was disregarding anything.

 

 

Interesting that you are the second player to make mention of my adjectives.

 

If I comment that you have "attacked" a post, I'm dying that you chose a post and a point to object to and brought it up in thread. You attacked it. There might be a "soft attack" or a "hard attack", but it's an attack nonetheless.

 

If I comment that you are "shaming" another player, it means that you've use insulting verbiage to belittle their play or leaned on them as if you were more experienced than they are.

 

Personally, I find mincing words scummish.

 

If I say "evidence", I'm referring to an action by a player, documented, that can used to reference continuity later. 

 

"Tone reading" and hunches in general are speculation. They can be useful as guides - I have a few right now - but they are not submittable  in court.

 

In my experience, players that favor hunches over evidence find themselves at the wrong end of the noose or knife.

 

no, the point isn't to belabor word choice, but to elaborate on why I reacted the way i did - the words you used. i would say nudge, or speculate, in place of attack because they're more relevant and less hyperbolic.

.

in regards to the bolded, if you use words differently than i would then i'm going to ask what you mean so to facilitate a discussion.

 

i agree hunches are not pushes; they're closer to statements of intent. tone reading, however, is different. how someone responds and what they respond to are very key in an analysis since the content of a post  can be fabricated in forum mafia but tone and flow are difficult for wolfpack to imitate.

 

 

Are we agreed that semantics and posturing benefit scum more than town? 

 

Are we agreed that fact and evidence are more useful to the town than hunches and speculation? 

 

I'm fine to take you as you stand, but please define that stance. 

 

No.

 

Yes.

 

If you mean my stance on tone reading, my stance is all good things come with moderation and compromise. tone reading is half-way between substance and guess-work, and it needs to be used deliberately. when i say barm's post is fishy, i'm saying it's fishy because of the phrasing in respect to thread flow. but the caveat is i don't know his meta, nor very much of his character yet, so it doesn't necessarily mean anything.

 

I forgot to ask what evidence I've been disregarding. You said that, and now I want to know what you mean?

[Darthe]

 

It'll never happen.  I've booted him from three games now for inactivity and he always says that's just how he plays.

 

That makes him a jerk.

 

Not gonna go there.  Since I'm in your crap tier and am up you wanna chat?  I've got you in my leafy greens.

[Darthe]

When i say barm's post is fishy, i'm saying it's fishy because of the phrasing in respect to thread flow. 

 

I do a lot of bs-ey things but... How does one measure that?

[Thane Vakarian]

here's the thing: it's easier to post witty oneliners at work then complete WoT's.... 

 

furthermore, i'm wondering why i need to explain why i think people are town or not when several other people have posted top three/two's and weren't asked to elaborate. 

[WWWwombat]

Your confusion over Arsis/Pral didn't seem genuine ot me and some of your other points have been weird even for you.

[Darthe]

here's the thing: it's easier to post witty oneliners at work then complete WoT's.... 

 

furthermore, i'm wondering why i need to explain why i think people are town or not when several other people have posted top three/two's and weren't asked to elaborate. 

Your list looks made up to me and dodging it repeatedly has piqued my interest.  Shouldn't take a WOT.  

 

Your confusion over Arsis/Pral didn't seem genuine ot me and some of your other points have been weird even for you.

It was genuine.  Take it or leave it, but you can easily note that I began work about 15 before the replacement since I posted my schedule on thread.  Weird points?  I'm sure I have made some but I need a bit more than that.

[WWWwombat]

I'll prob have to ISO you to come up with anything more specific and it's not really a strong enough read atm for me to bother doing that.

[Thane Vakarian]

i'm a very instinctive player Darthe, i don't find it easy to explain why i think someone feels right. I mainly trust the way i do feel about a player; wether it's good or bad. I'm usually better at tieing knots together from D2 on, when there has been a flip/some flips and i can see if i did well to trust my gut, or if i need to go see a doc because my gut is off. 

[DPR]

 

What does any of that have to do with the price of tea in China?

See post 893 above. Cass is a new player. Cass claims Monstr [her mentor] said Seer cover wasn't standard on this site. Sili also claimed Seer cover wasn't standard on this site. Since this has a direct bearing on how *I* am being read by Cass [and possibly others], I gave an explanation on where all this Seer cover stuff is coming from and illustrating that while this may be new for the site, this actually is NOT a foreign concept to this particular player base. A lot of words to say that Seer cover is null and likely to become "a thing" and not something that should be read as fishing - which is what I believe was being implied.

 

 

No. I never mentioned Cass and make no reference to her now. 

 

The name "Seer Cover" implies what the action is meant to accomplish. It's kind of like "Barn Door".

 

Implying that people don't get it, especially coupled with the "trust us - we're the cool kids from the other site that knows how to play..." vibe is a technique that be seen as an effort to intimidate new players - to bully these players into silence or following the misdirection.

 

I'm fine with the technique. But, I'm also fine to point it out as technique. 

 

There is no question that multiple players have cited "The Other Site". To me, that doesn't have a damn thing to do with this game and I see it as fluff and padding.

 

 

 

 

I think the people arguing against seer cover aren't looking at the circumstances of this game very carefully.  The main reason not to like seer cover is that it essentially gives the seer a shelf-life.  That being said, the setup of this game already puts the seer on a shelf life.  Town has two part-time vigs.  Mafia has two extra kills and a roleblocker.  Town does not have a doc but a jailkeeper (much less effective at protecting cops).  All of this means that not only is the seer more likely to die to nightkill, but once the seer hardclaims, he or she is unlikely to get another viewing off.

 

As for Yates hardclaiming to start the seer cover, that probably wasn't the best move on a site that isn't used to seer cover, but it's not something that makes him scum.  It's still a null-to-town move overall imo.

 

Personally, I didn't worry when Yates made the claim. 

 

I worry about all of the commentary after - the moves behind the moves.

 

Yates could have easily made the claim and let it be. If anyone asked, he could have explained it. Or, he could have explained it while he was doing it to try and get a thing started. I don't have a problem with any of that as it's up front and makes sense.

 

But, my radar pings when Des comes into to explain Yate's moves. Yet, a person could argue that Des takes it upon himself to explain everybody's moves. But, when Sili shows up and starts laying down the same rhetoric Des did (before Des had to back off and distance himself from it) I take notice.

 

And, when other players still bring it up, I take more notice. Dead horse and all that...

 

i don't know why it's a problem. it might be a 'dead horse' for you, but apparently some others are stuck on it,  so i thought i might resolve some of the confusion instead of letting cass or someone dwell on it.

 

also, my speel over the merits of seer cover are in response to questions asked by others, so your angle is kind of obtuse. people will stop asking about seer cover when they're on the same page. until then, the forum's new to it.

 

 

It's a problem for me the same way creating any advantage for the mafia is a problem.

 

If a player is stuck, give them a simple explanation and unstick them. All of this leading the horse to water/slaughter nonsense is just pandering. 

 

To the "this forum is new..." rhetoric, I find this laughable. 

 

This forum has evolved many times over the years, as do they all. Unfortunately, the current evolution seems to feature massive amounts of emo and very little case structuring.

[Darthe]

I'll prob have to ISO you to come up with anything more specific and it's not really a strong enough read atm for me to bother doing that.

I don't really know what to do with this then.  

 

i'm a very instinctive player Darthe, i don't find it easy to explain why i think someone feels right. I mainly trust the way i do feel about a player; wether it's good or bad. I'm usually better at tieing knots together from D2 on, when there has been a flip/some flips and i can see if i did well to trust my gut, or if i need to go see a doc because my gut is off. 

You're clearly going to be incredibly helpful in latter rounds.  I see the merit of indefinitely keeping you around and wish you to consider me firmly on your side so that you don't NK me yet.