[Standard] 11/10 Top Tier Vanilla+ Game Thread

[Tommyrod]

Mod Announcement:

 

Moving forward, players not voting at EOD will be voting for themselves.

[Thane Vakarian]

ftr: i dount i'll be very active coming weekend. the Mrs is working saturday so i got the kids all day, and sunday is needed for preparation of large renovationworks in the house starting monday.

 

Play nice all. 

[Barmacral]

Yeah I won't be around much this weekend either. Well maybe some tomorrow, though I've got a few things going on throughout the day but I'll be busy most of Sunday for sure.

[Cass]

'Catching up' without actually catching up - if that makes sense? I have 10 mins then I have to go.

 

 

Cass yes this is how Despo usually is.

I'm usually much more active and outspoken. He's normal here.

 

 

Actually he is s little less wild than normally.

Thanks. How are you reading him then, out of curiosity? And why? (links to specific posts are awesome).

 

 

 

c) @DPR - What's your read on Kiv? When you suggested a Scum team that didn't include you or Kiv - why did you suggest Kiv should be out too? I can think of a 'plausible' reason for you, now. But not quite one for Kiv....?

 

So, for various reasons, I'm not going to go into detail on all of the possibilities regarding Kiv. What i said to Des about not giving the opposition talking points is a large part of this as well as the fact that half of this game (at least - more if the players are skilled) is dependent on what is not said. 

Fair, and noted.

However, I will offer this: everything Kiv has said can be taken at face value and trusted. Just as he pointed out that I will play the same as scum or town, he will do the same and we will both use town-centric logic to seem town. The key here is that the information we offer always be correct or we'll give ourselves away. The danger to us, in we are scum, is that the later in the game we get, the higher the stakes and chances to get caught. This means that scum will more than likely need to make a move counter to logic and town play and then you have them. 

Thought so. Note to self - re-read recap, understand recent moves - REMEMBER later in the game!

For now, know that Kivam has shared proven techniques and information that you can use.

Yes, thanks. Both of you.... I think, and to a point ....   

Other than that, we'll just have to wait and see how things turn out. 

As an inpatient person, this is driving me insane!   

Cheers.

 

And FYI my reasoning hasn't changed at any point, but nice spinning.

If you say so  . I'm suspecting EVERYONE now, remember. But you've particularly caught my eye *giggles* I can't wait to compare our thoughts on Barm :)

 

In fact, Thane falling back on his read on Pray is now making me think that's the case (that he is scum with Yates)

FOS Thane

Finger of Suspicion, right? Des... I love that you're picking up what I'm putting down - wanna help me out with why? I still don't understand the Pray thing (sorry if someone has already answered this, I'll find it when I catch up for reals  ) and now I'd like to hear your new take too...

[Cass]

ftr: i dount i'll be very active coming weekend. the Mrs is working saturday so i got the kids all day, and sunday is needed for preparation of large renovationworks in the house starting monday.

 

Play nice all. 

Know the feeling! Have fun with that   

 

Yeah I won't be around much this weekend either. Well maybe some tomorrow, though I've got a few things going on throughout the day but I'll be busy most of Sunday for sure.

 

True/not true, but this (both of you skipping out together)..  seems a bit 'convenient' *watchful eyes* ... and yes, this might just be me spinning...

 

 

Happy weekend all!

[TheRagnarok]

Ok, I've gone back through Yates. Part 1 of spoiler.

 

 

 

 

Claim: Seer

dicetosser1 is Town.

Claims dice as town.

 

 

Best way to read Thane is to be interacting with him realtime. That's his element as town and harder for him to hide his scumness.

Like two games ago i was all against lynching him (you know where you were scum with Tommy and Leelou) for these very reasons.

Csarmi is on point this game. The bold is exactly what I used to Town read Thane in the last game. And I didn't even have to be the one interacting with him there. It's just the way he responds to challenges in thread in real time that give you the read. Basically, it's a stream of consciousness sort of thought process that you see in his posts. His willingness to put out partially thought out reads is indicative of him just figuring things out and not trying to further an agenda. This is something I figured out a little too late the last time I mislynched him in Firefly.

I see a LOT more Town Thane here, fwiw.
 

i don't remember which game it was, but someone called me the new Blackhoof for being mislynched so often D1...

That was either the end of Firefly or ongoing. Don't let it get to you. Just post your thoughts like you did last time. You'll be fine if you're Town and outted if you're scum. So no worries.

 

 

 

I just don't understand why it was brought up. The fact that he got mislynched a lot isn't meta. No one is referring to anything he usually does as town/scum. It's just being said that people often misread him.... so what?

It's the same thing I brought up about Hally recently. Certain players are kept around as lynch bait. Hally is [was?] one and Thane is another.

I don't think he's going to completely change the way he plays. So instead you have to look at his meta and understand what is a Town tell and a scum tell FOR HIM. It's the same thing you do for anyone else you are more familiar with and the reason you defer to Leelou on a Verb read, for example.

I think Thane pointing out how often he is mislynched is his way of saying "you guys don't get me." And that's fair.

 

Spews Thane as town here.

 

 

In my experience when Arsis rolls town he's very awkward and demotivated. He hates rolling town. LOVES LOVES LOVES rolling scum. As town he doesn't quite know what to do with himself. I thought I saw some of this in his posts but after rereading them all I feel like since he's OP he's been very focused, motivated and quite eager to twist things around to fit his narrative.

More than that, he's all over the place as Town and flinging poo like a monkey at a zoo to see what sticks. This is actually a really good point and part of how I read Arsis. Look at his most recent Town games as examples. I mean, he counter claimed a Beloved Princess in a game on Day 1 once - and he was a TOWN PR that game!! I'm not seeing any of that here.

So I'm inclined to agree with you here. I'll have to look back but I really don't recall seeing him doing ANYTHING even remotely off the wall yet. And that's probably a pretty good scum tell for him. I'm good with Arsis/Darthe wagons today.

[v]##Arsis[/v]

 

Agrees with Nyn on Arsis and votes him.

 

 

 

Why are you post-padding?

Wait. What? How am I "post padding?"

 

 

Your post dealt primarily with another game and commentary regarding the current state of DM mafia.

 

What does any of that have to do with the price of tea in China?

 

First of the Yates-DPR interactions.  This and the others(no need to quote them all imo, post #930 is a good one too) makes me put DPR firmly in the townie pile.

 

 

If you guys wanna go after Yates for something, how about going after him for having very little meaningful content?

Is this a joke?

 

Womby takes a shot at Yates

 

 

Scummy post from Yates here imo.  At this point he should have just let it go, but by continuing the argument it allows him to look like bulldog town trying to clear themselves.

What's the difference between being a "bulldog" and responding to a nonsense case someone is trying to build?

It's *MY* job to clear myself, is it not? I don't get you acting like *I* am scummy for "continuing an argument" when I'm merely addressing a point being leveled directly against me. And not only that, I'm OBVIOUSLY trying to get closure on something that had become a distraction - which is actually probably the most pro Town thing I've done all game. So you giving me SCUM points for that reads as nonsense.

Is this your first time in a game with me??

 

Krak takes a shot at Yates.

 

 

Of course.  Scum who aren't setting up WIFOMs from Day 1 are asleep at the switch and asking to take their teammates down with them if they get caught.  You don't do that as scum?  I sure as hell do, which means I always keep my eyes open for it.  I also find it interesting that you are trying to imply that there is no possible connection between you and DesLami.

Did you just say you are scum? Because I called YOUR POST complete WIFOM.    
 

Also, I'm saying you are OVER REACHING on your Des-Yates connection.  By your logic, we should both be more tied to DPR.  In other words, I can see you starting to form a confirmation bias and trying to read people to fit a narrative rather than letting the game come to you and just taking in facts.  This is something I am ALWAYS looking for on Day 1.  And you are pinging it hard right now.

 

Yates goes after Kivam.

 

 

He did post here. Said wow only 40 pages. Tears of joy. Bla bla bla. Lets see what Arsis got me into. I assumed he would have caught up by now. I just wanted to see his recap before the deadline looms over. Cover all my bases.

Yeah but that was 2 days ago. He'll post something like 30 minutes before deadline after ignoring the thread all week. It's pretty frustrating/annoying. I'm done cutting him slack in the hopes he'll catch up and post something amazing and game solvey and engage the thread with enough time to resolve his slot as opposed to last second posting after ignoring the game.

TL/DR - I'm not moving my vote simply because Pral took over for Arsis.

 

Another Nyn-Yates interaction that makes Pral look good.

 

 

I have a smiley gif set up for Salami, btw. lol

Oh geez!

Hey while you're here; what do you think of Leelou and Tress? I kind of hoped to see more from Tress by now and that has me concerned.

 

And more of Nyn-Yates.  Torn between Yates trying to pocket Nyn and them being scum together.

 

 

[TheRagnarok]

Part 2 of spoiler and TL;DR

 

 

 

 

 

I don't feel comfortable moving her from my null pile yet. But if she keeps slanking into D2 as well, it's going to affect my read.

Samesies. This is my summary of her play so far:

From her first two posts I guess we can assume her vagina is in tip top shape?
She foregoes an actual catch up post and decides to agree with Des's list of reads.
She gives Sili a little chastising for his "my Day 1 vote doesn't matter" thing.
Some more agreeing with Des and giving Csarmi an "attaboy."
Jokey McJokerson with Wombat and Thane.
Then one more post from noon on Tuesday talking about Salami's D1 vote thing again.

Nothing of substance there. I'm used to seeing her with more teeth, I guess is the best way to describe it.

I felt a bit tinfoily when she got unnecessarily brisk with Des but that might have to do with her personality and not so much with her alignment. She can be cranks as either, really. So for now light town read.

Yeah. That Des thing came across as a little harsh. But in retrospect I think I have some context for that frustration bubbling over here. Overall she seems to be her normal [to borrow an adjective from Wombat] AFFABLE self - with a side of snark. Mostly, it's how she has been approaching Darthe that's giving me the feel goods about her. She's seeing stuff others haven't already pointed out and using that to resolve his slot. That's Leelou Town solving - not Leelou Scum +1-ing.

 

This looks like Yates is setting up to push Tress later and looks good for Tress.

 

 

Sure, I'll shut up. Sorry for being out of place, I'm 20 pages behind and it caught my eyes in lunchtime.

LOL - Sorry, I didn't mean to make that sound like you are "out of place." It's just that every game, it seems, we get into this debate - though typically it's about lynching inactives. Then it goes on for pages and pages and nothing is ever resolved so it shows up again in the next game and the next.

We should have a wiki that has the information lynch argument already hashed out that we can just reference.  

 

 

 

Cause I'm so frustrated with this work I'm doing I might wanna do some chatting.

Sorry - I have to hop in the shower and get to work.  We can chat in like an hour?

 

I'm just super bummed that Cass is calling me scum but refusing to talk to me.  Makes me a sad panda.

 

 

 

Again, yall prob just think this is crazy ol Despot jumping at shadows, but I find Kivam leaving out this piece of evidence to be supportive of those two being scum together

Nope. I'm picking up what you're laying down.

I'm just less inclined to demotivate Pral to do his catch up post BEFORE deadline. He's promising more stuff "by tonight." But I don't know if that means India "tonight" or us "tonight." And either way, I think it would be after deadline. Screw that noise.

 

 

 

When Darthe is saying this is a good reads list, you KNOW it's all kinds of jacked up. Holy God.

Wombat's post? Clearly sarcasm. In response to Darthe. I got that immediately.

DPR's post about "really really Town?" Not so much. I would have given him a little more benefit of the doubt if Kivam hadn't handed him that shovel to help dig himself out.

Yates makes a number of comments to csarmi and Des that when looking back at them, look really bad.  Des/Csarmi take a major hit from this read through.  Could just be him trying to pocket them, but I'm not leaning that way. 

 

 

 

Des is writing MY posts.

Cani write some too?

Also

Please advis3 me on Darthe.

 

1. Not unless there are some sweet lyrics.

2. Darthe is a D2 at the earliest read for me. Plus, he's kind of slunk off into the background given all this other stuff. So I guess I'd need to go back. I don't think he's in the D1 lynch pool, anyway. So I can always revisit if I have to. One thing I can tell you is that the post he made where he called me 52% Town or whatever is a pretty classic Darthe Town post. I actually pointed out where he made an almost verbatim post in the other game about me and we were both Town. But that's shooting from the hip, without a ton of context, and coming from a completely egocentric perspective so grains of salt and all that.

 

Spews Darthe as town.

 

 

If I had three bullets right now I'd shoot Laya, Verb and...  That last shot would be a YOLO so I'd probably go Dice/Tress/Hally.

But you are voting for Kivam? And weren't you voting me for most of the day? When did that change? I saw nothing in thread about it.

 

Another interesting interaction as he never mentions his supposed N1 view.

 

Des is writing MY posts.

 

 

No one seems to actually care about this lynch. No one that's voted recently ever tried engaging Sili while he was around
 
READ THE SIGNS PEOPLE

Seriously. Des *IS* writing my posts.

Like, Leelou literally voted Sili for no reason other than because Wombat said so. And that was okay?

 

This joke that Yates said twice is really pinging me the wrong way.  Seems like the type of joke scum would make about a scummate to distance in case one went down.  "Come on guys, no way he'd make that joke about a scummate, right?!"

 

He also spews Lee and Stelio as town and goes after Sili(didn't bother to quote as they're dead).

 

 

 

TL;DR

 

People who were claimed town by Yates

Dice

 

People who were spewed town by Yates

Thane

Darthe

Leelou

Stelio

 

People who were voted on by Yates

Arsis/Pral

 

People Yates went after

DPR

Kivam

Tress

 

People who went after Yates

Womby

Krak

 

People that Yates never directly quoted

dice

Hallia

Rags

Tress

 

People who are either scum with Yates or he was trying to pocket

Des/Csarmi

Nyn

 

That said, reading through Yates makes me give townie leans to

Thane

Darthe

Leelou

Stelio

Arsis/Pral

DPR

Womby

Kivam

Krak

Tress

 

Now, chances are that I am misclearing someone in this list, but I think it's a pretty good group to exclude for D2.

 

I did not add dice to this list because it struck me as odd that Yates never once had any direct communication with dice and never mentioned him after post #1140 even when Darthe mentioned him as a potential YOLO shot.

 

I do have a town lean on Cass, but their interactions never sold me one way or the other as it was mostly discussion on the seer cover bit.

 

Another that stood out is AJ.  Yates quoted him in his 2nd post and I don't believe they had any interaction after that.

 

Of the people he did not quote, I only mentioned Hallia as lynch bait and only mentioned me in reference(this does not include his 'reads' list) to a past game which could look bad for us.

 

I am going to look at AJ, Des/csarmi, Nyn, and dice as people whose interactions with Yates struck me as particularly odd.

 

And I think that's everyone in the game.

[hazelkrs1]

@Cass: you want my new take on Pray? Or why I'm picking up what you're putting down...

[hazelkrs1]

Overall like the WIM in the spew analysis Rags, only a few things I kinda disagree with

 

Darthe being spewed town- expand on that because I didn't get that from there. Towards EOD yesterday Darthe was trending up for me, but Yates spew actually made me think Darthe COULD be his scummate in fact

 

Tress - it's possible you and Pray are right about Tress not being Yates' teammate here, but him mentioning her towards EOD seemed like it could have been distancing to me. Could just be that I REALLY didn't like her vote tho, and immediately after calling out that vote she seemed to indicate she was still wary of DPR... Who now seems >rand town now after Yates spew

 

Wombat - you never really explained much of why he seemed townie for you after the spew analysis... And my analysis if anything made him look bad to me. He called out Yates, but also hedged that callout in the same post. And the ONE time Yates quoted Wombat ("is this a joke") Wombat never responded... Yeah I disagree with that read a lot

 

I will say I like that you mentioned Yates never quoting or interacting with AJ much, that seemed weird to me especially since Yates had AJ as a town lean later on. Wasn't sure if that was spewing a teammate or trying to pocket town!AJ tho.

 

Also like that you pointed out everyone that Yates never quoted/interacted with, obviously results there are slightly murky if that person was just more inactive than most

 

Oh and you said Yates "townspewed" Leelou and Stelio....

[hazelkrs1]

Tress' vote on Sili*

[TheRagnarok]

Overall like the WIM in the spew analysis Rags, only a few things I kinda disagree with

 

Darthe being spewed town- expand on that because I didn't get that from there. Towards EOD yesterday Darthe was trending up for me, but Yates spew actually made me think Darthe COULD be his scummate in fact

 

Tress - it's possible you and Pray are right about Tress not being Yates' teammate here, but him mentioning her towards EOD seemed like it could have been distancing to me. Could just be that I REALLY didn't like her vote tho, and immediately after calling out that vote she seemed to indicate she was still wary of DPR... Who now seems >rand town now after Yates spew

 

Wombat - you never really explained much of why he seemed townie for you after the spew analysis... And my analysis if anything made him look bad to me. He called out Yates, but also hedged that callout in the same post. And the ONE time Yates quoted Wombat ("is this a joke") Wombat never responded... Yeah I disagree with that read a lot

 

I will say I like that you mentioned Yates never quoting or interacting with AJ much, that seemed weird to me especially since Yates had AJ as a town lean later on. Wasn't sure if that was spewing a teammate or trying to pocket town!AJ tho.

 

Also like that you pointed out everyone that Yates never quoted/interacted with, obviously results there are slightly murky if that person was just more inactive than most

 

Oh and you said Yates "townspewed" Leelou and Stelio....

Yates said that the Darthe 52% thing was classic town Darthe.

 

The Tress thing struck me as a comment scum would make to follow up on later to get a mislynch.  Hence my reasoning. 

 

I never said that Yates spewed Womby, but that Womby went after Yates.  Didn't strike me as scum/scum interaction as much. 

 

And yeah, I just didn't quote the Leelou/Stelio stuff cause they're dead and I had a crapton of quotes already.

 

If you want the quotes...

 

 

For the record I'm adding Lee to my light town pile. I've felt a bit guarded about her after she fooled me last game... but I'm comfortable with her posts so far.

The best thing she's done over the last few weeks is hydra with me.

 

But yeah. I'm comfortable giving her an early green as well.

 

 

 

I'm sorry, but if you can only catch up at 20 pages per day, you're probably never going to be caught up, and if you're never here to post then we're never ever going to be able to clear you, and I'd just as soon pick the scab now.

A random aside, by the way: I'm not really happy with the talk about "lynching people for information" -- ever, really, but especially on day 1.

I like the cut of your jib, sir. It's like hearing my own echo.

 

[in before "Yates is writing Stelio's posts!"]

 

They are at the least evidence that Yates spewed some townies as town.

[WWWwombat]

Oh, and also

 

[unvote]##DPR[/unvote]

 

Is this supposed to be a vote or an unvote?  I didn't have you voting anyone.

[Tommyrod]

I count that as a vote for DPR.

[WWWwombat]

Vote Count D2.5:

Wombat (2): Kivam [#1906], Deslami [#2025]
Pral (2): Nyn [#1923], Thane [#1931]
DPR (1): Cass [#2041]

Unvote(1): Pral [#1985]

Not Voting (10): AJ, Darthe, Dicesalad, DPR, Hallia, Krak, Rags, Tress, Verbarm, Wombat


At the gallows: Pral

[Nynaeve]

Getting ready to go to bed. Nighty

[WWWwombat]

@Des:  I thought it was pretty obvious I was serious about my criticism of Yates' content along with the criticism of the attacks on him.  I don't see a need to answer every single rhetorical question thrown my way, and that's pretty clearly what Yates' question was imo.

 

@Wes, Cass:  Wes, I don't take anything you say at face value.  For the most part, I believe what you've been saying so far though.  As for Kivam, every argument he makes as scum is usually an argument he could make as town.  That's why he's so terrifying.  The difference is one of focus.  As scum, he won't examine certain lines of reasoning that he would as town, and he'll focus on others that he would give minimal attention as scum.  That's why I find his argument about me being the SK as wolfy.  It's internally consistent, but I don't think it's something he'd focus on yet as town.  Of course, I'll be the first to admit I could be biased from my PoV here, but that's my take.

 

@The Entire Game:  Still looks like most of you are on crazy pills.  Possible exceptions being DPR, Rags, and Despo, who may be coming down from them (too early to tell).  I think many of you need to seriously re-evaluate some of your stances.  There seems to be a lot of capricious tone-reading and black-and-white reasoning ITT.  You form reads too easily and stick to them too firmly.  This is the kind of "logic" that lets competent wolves dominate games on DM right now.  You can rarely catch good wolves that way.

 

For instance, of the people in this game, the only people alive who I actually think can tone read me reliably are Verbal and Wes (Kivam can read me well usually, but he doesn't usually go on things like tone in my experience).  Now, Verbal hasn't issued a read on me that I know of, but if you look at Wes, he was scum-reading me well before most of the rest of the game was, and now that everyone else has decided that I looked "off" at EOD, Wes seems to be one of the only people actually trying to play ball with me.  I don't know what Wes thinks of me right now, or if he's town or not, but I'd guess that he's town and that he's ambivalent on me.  Maybe you guys should consider the possibility that you are wrong.

 

Also, I'm really tired of having to write every single bit of my thought process out.  You guys should start inferring some things for yourselves.

[WWWwombat]

@Nyn: Night

[WWWwombat]

*should read that I believe that Wes believes what he's saying

[TheRagnarok]

Womby thinks I'm not crazy?

 

He's totes scum.

[WWWwombat]

Intoxicated ! = Crazy

[TheRagnarok]

Hahahahaha well played.

 

Any thoughts on my Yates recap?

[Cass]

Was meant to be an unvote DPR.

 

I am on mobile now and unable to check how to do this properly. Will attempt fix when I sit back down for real.

 

(Fools rush in, Rookie. Gah. I NEED to learn this lesson SOON).

 

Sorry for confusion.

[WWWwombat]

I like most of it.  I'd probably put Tress, Deslami and Krak as null wrt spew though.  AJ I'm conflicted on.  The 3 Amigos thing combined with the lack of mention reads like Yates was scared of being read by him, but Yates isn't that type of play imo.  I'm hoping AJ posts more so I can just read him himself.

[WWWwombat]

I'll have to do my own analysis later though.

[TheRagnarok]

I like most of it.  I'd probably put Tress, Deslami and Krak as null wrt spew though.  AJ I'm conflicted on.  The 3 Amigos thing combined with the lack of mention reads like Yates was scared of being read by him, but Yates isn't that type of play imo.  I'm hoping AJ posts more so I can just read him himself.

Fair enough.