[Standard] 11/10 Top Tier Vanilla+ Game Thread

[Sili Quirrels]

 

 

so, we have two direct claims for Seer: Yates and Sili....

 

Anybody up for competing trains, or too early?

LOL - that's not how you do that, Thane. Go look at the VS game.

 

Yeah, i don't really look at other games, and my vote's already on Sili 

 

pretty sure his point is that seer cover is important for the real seer to get his reads out there in case they die.

 

that's all i'm doing. i'm not hard claiming the role until i have to. let the wolfpack think what they may.

[Nynaeve]

Kivam, where were people asking me about who I was talking about???

[WWWwombat]

 

@ despo

 

re OP the first line was meant as an observation not a whinge but i guess you could take it either way. not sure it really matters tbh. I never understand people saying this person is scummy cause of how they said they were here. its their first post. unless they do a Rand or unless you know each other well like verb/leelou i dunno what it tells anyone.

 

 

the three amigos thing. i was going to not comment on this. but seeing as people keep bringing it up i will once only.

I knew what he was saying. I knew why he was saying it. AJ totally got sold out by not playing along. and yates thing to me in marlfox gave me a read on him.

 

Could any of us abuse this? yes we could. but we choose not to.

 

Mafia doesn't HAVE to be about abusing every little thing you can.

 

look at turin and ithi. he buddys her no matter what but you can read him on it but what they NEVER do is go at each other. i cant think of a game where they even cased each other. Thats them keeping true to their bonded relationship.

 

does that make sense? I hope so cause i wanna leave it behind now.

Turin and Ithi aren't a great example tho because they kind of let their bond get in the way in mafia games, to the detriment of others ability to read them independently.

 

I think that there is nothing wrong with using an in joke or running reference to try and get someone to misclear you. There's nothing underhanded about that kind of move, it's just being clever.

 

Anyways, don't you think Yates trying to nix that NOW and not BEFORE the game began is slightly suspect? Like he wanted to keep from having to respond to you or AJ about that so as not to give himself away or break some imaginary sacred bond?

 

 

FYI Yates did explain that the game started before he expected it to, so that last point is bleh.

 

 

Pop quiz, hotshots. What's the goal of Day 1? Want to see how far you've fallen

 

Info!

[Songstress]

Gonna go ahead and do an early POE cause WHY NOT, AMIRITE?

 

Nulls (either haven't posted or haven't posted enough for me to get a firm read on):

 

Cass

DPR

Rags

Tress

Hallia

 

Blues (I know, a bit early for this, but hey, I also have the right to change my mind):

 

Nyn

AJ

Leelou

Wombat

Thane

 

I've had some mindmelds with Nyn early on, and I feel that she is genuinely trying to develop reads on players- if she was scum she could have either used those WKing Thane about his mislynch past to try and push him as a suspect, or else hedge more on him later instead of townreading him. AJ has looked good in general so far, and he's a bit associative as well considering Sili's scummy handling of him. Leelou is active and pointing out stuff I think a town!Leelou would be likely to, and isn't lurking when she gets attention or anything, quite the opposite. Wombat looks good for some stuff early on, looks good for the manner in which he is questioning Yates, the only thing I don't like is his vote on Nyn but I can see where he's coming from there (that Nyn could be scum wasting time on arguing on pointless manners) I just don't think he's correct. Thane looked questionable at first, but now seems to be replying in a Thane-y sort of way, and I feel that the way Arsis is WKing him is more likely a w/v relationship (that scum!Arsis is defending town!Thane)

 

Greens (still feel town on, but would be much more open to changing my mind on these):

 

Krak

Kivam

Stelio

Verb/Barm

 

I first off disagree with my hydra head that a vote on Krak at this point is wise- he isn't that reactive, or active really, most the time so meh. I also liked Krak pointing out that post of Nyn's and saying it was townie. Light townie points for that since I don't see the scum motivation in doing that if Nyn is town like I think she is. Kivam is a bit associative, I think some people are trying to dismiss or discredit him as an old fossil. Kivam was always on the leading edge of mafia back when he played more often, and none of the newer trends like tonereading or anything will be difficult for him to get comfortable with imo. Stelio looks good for a newer player in this environment, and already looks willing to dip his toes in the water. Barm's posting looks better than Verb's imo, but Verb has read as town for my gut as well.

 

Oranges (slight scum reads, but more wary and willing to reconsider):

 

Dice

Yates

 

Dice is here mainly cause of his OP, and then eh it's weak but the simple smiley emotes from him in response to Yates' stuff about the three amigos and whatnot seemed kinda meh for him. Would expect him to espouse more on that sort of thing. Yates looks slightly wolfy for acting self-conscious about the three amigos thing, and also defensive when others react in what seems to me like a natural way to react to what he's saying

 

Reds (strongest scum reads, would be very much willing to lynch any of this group):

 

Darthe

Sili

Arsis

 

Darthe looks like he's trying to force a casual tone in his posts, and also got a bit too wordy when talking to Sili, I agree with Barm that that could have been w/w "coaching" ITT (as a way of kind of distancing that he's coaching him in the QT). I also didn't like all the hedging talk on hydra heads- Darthe has plenty of experience with hydras so that talk seemed mega wolfy coming from him. Sili looks turrible so far. Admitting to not having any context to a vote so obviously doesn't make it less scummy. Also don't like him bringing up his own meta in self-defense. Arsis looks mega opportunistic with his push on Nyn, I don't like his WKing of Thane, and his justification for said WKing (Thane being "seriously pushed" on page 2) doesn't hold up either

 

I want to start off by saying I'm having a pretty serious case of mindmeld with Despo today, which used to be a flashing red light sign.

 

Des, remember back in the good old days when the only way I knew you were town was if you said something outrageously slap-me-in-the-face scummy that made me want to lynch you pronto, and if I found myself nodding and agreeing with you you were almost certainly scum?  I really hope you haven't reverted to your old ways, because i'm liking how you're thinking overall so far.

 

I'm less confident on my reads than this POE, but find myself agreeing with many of them - the blues especially.  On the scum lean end of things, I am most in agreement with Sili, the others I am not sure enough to categorize without a full reread, and a lot more thinking.

[Darthe]

 

Still the only Seer in the game.

 

Still have a Town result on Dice.

 

FTR - my Dice investigation was the result of a random role by mod since I didn't see my role until 2 hours after my NA was due - as evidenced by the time stamp of my first post. Thanks for asking about this very pertinent piece of information, btw.

 

I seriously seriously hope you didn't genuinely out yourself as the town Seer like this on D1.

 

 

Of course, you could have made up the last bit because you saw people were doubting the Seer claim so wanted to strengthen the Seer cover. Meh.

 

 

"If I was scum that would hold water on me"

 

Lolololololol

 

And pointing out that I've tunneled on you in the past IS discrediting me, essentially. I've also tunneled on you when you were scum, btw. Multiple times.

Your arguing that because you're accurate 25% of the time it validates the other 75%? 

 

 

 

No, I'm saying it's stupid of you to say that I'm only right on you if you're scum... it's like the 17th most ridiculous thing you've ever said in a mafia game. It would be the MOST ridiculous thing for most people, but you've said a lot of ridiculous things in mafia games.

 

So in a game where town doesn't know the alignment of other, you defend yourself by saying my argument would only be right if you were scum. WtfffffFF?????? How is that even an argument?

 

"You're only right about me if I'm scum"

 

#FullDarthe

 

It's like talking to a mound of pudding.

 

Christ Salami, no.  Obviously if I was mafia he would be right so his argument would be valid that he is tunneling scum and that it is beneficial to town for him to do so.  How can you possibly not understand that?

 

Because it makes zero sense

 

You're not stupid so I want you to think through this carefully.

 

If you say I'm scum every game (or at least most) and I say that that makes your calling me scum par for the course and 75% likely to be wrong that is objectively logical.  Obvious even.  You can't make an argument based on you catching me as scum because you tunnel me if you happen to tunnel me nearly every game.  It's confirmation bias.

 

Me acknowledging that may be a bit base but it isn't remotely erroneous.  That you have the most derp hydra partner to exist on DM since EP doesn't help your biases as he unintentionally misinterprets every statement on thread.  I really really wish at the moment that I thought this was outside of either of your town ranges.

[Kivam]

Kivam, where were people asking me about who I was talking about???

 

Top of PG 5.  That's what all the stuff about pronouns was.  Your post that ended Page 4 had a lot of "him" in it, wasn't entirely clear which person each "him" referenced.

[WWWwombat]

Through p. 25

 

 

Liking DPR's take on Supgate.

Des seems to be tunneling Darthe.

Got my eye on Yates, but his tone in wanting to get past the Amigos thing looks good to me.

[WWWwombat]

 

There's something liberating about coming to the game without recent mafia history on any of you.  

 

I get you.

 

 

I'm doomed to wade through the meta :(

[Songstress]

 

 

^^^Incredibly opportunistic votes. Arsis fos's and argues with Nyn a bit, but doesn't actually vote her until Wombat does so, and then Sili attempts to hop on the bandwagon after already saying his vote doesn't represent any intent to lynch anyone (which is scummy as hell btw)

 

 

Despi, mate, my votes don't matter this early on, and i promise to be more conservative when it does matter. right now though, there's no harm in enhancing a wagon and observing the aftermath.

 

i would prefer to do this until i have a feel for the game and the participants.

 

 

Re: the bolded.

 

Problem is that due to the lynch rules in this game, your votes DO matter this early on, or they can if there's a tie at EOD.  You vote someone, a few other people vote, even if you unvote later, as long as they haven't lost the lead when deadline hits that "enhancing a wagon" bit you think doesn't matter could be the difference in who dies.

 

I'm not saying you shouldn't vote, by any means, but don't make the mistake of thinking your vote doesn't matter this early, because it very well can.

[hazelkrs1]

 

I don't deny that I tunnel people, but if I'm tunneling scum, it's good for town, and likewise scum would rather dismiss my suspicions as the ramblings of a crazy tunneler

 

DPR evading my questioning is noted btw.

 

Your first sentence reads to me as "I don't deny that I do what I feel like at the time, but when it works it works and the people that it doesn't work for are going to complain about it." It does not speak of team play, but rather of personal motivation and IMO, offers a scant chance of success at best (especially D1) and a ton of confusion for the town to sort through at worst. 

 

And it's already been noted because I noted it.

 

 

 You could say I play selfishly, I suppose. Others have said similar in the past. I DO like going for the "big" play a lot, but I AM always trying to help my team win, not just look cool or something. And I don't tunnel on purpose or for the sake of tunneling- it just happens. I'm a very singularly minded mafia player, and don't want to let go of something when I think I've found something significant.

 

 

Holy crap Kivam can quote!

 

 

Also, "defending/not defending" argument is boring imo. So very tomato/tomato (what? You say tomayto/tomahto, I say tomato/tomato)

 

Also, telling everyone that you don't deny using a controversial technique (see tunneling quote above) but then dismissing another player's suggestion of basic logic as boring is just not townish.

 

In the last few hours I've twice called you out for attempting to shame players. Can you explain why you are doing this, especially on D1?

 

 

Firstly, I didn't think tunneling was a "controversial technique" and as I explained above I don't tunnel intentionally.

 

Secondly and this is kind of important- I wasn't dismissing what Kivam was saying. If anything, I think Verbal's post about what him doing not constituting actual defense of Thane was dumb. Defending is defending imo, whether it's hard defense, soft defense, chainsaw defense, whatever. Verb speaking on Thane's behalf WAS defense in my book. So I would support Kivam in that dispute. HOWEVER- I also think the argument is painful to go through: "You're defending" "Nuh uh! I didn't ______ so that means I wasn't defending!" "Well you DID do _____ so you were defending" "Nuh uh! Defending is only when blah blah blah". Hence, me saying the argument is boring.

 

And lastly, and this is the most important part here so I'll emphasize it-

 

Why are you just making shit up to try and make it seem like I'm a shitty person??? I didn't shame Dice, you said I did and I asked you to show me where I did (you didn't comply). Now you're saying I was shaming Kivam when I CLEARLY WASN'T, and in fact was JUST talking about how players should show him more respect instead of dismissing his thoughts and opinions. So that's TWICE now you have completely mischaracterized me in order to... what? Sadly, our history together makes me have to determine if you're scum trying to misrep me to try and get me lynched at some point, or if you're just being an awful human being who likes to pretend that I'm the boogeyman or something.

 

So answer me clearly here DPR. Are you mature enough to be able to put aside any outside the game elements between us, and play a civilized game here? If not, let me know now.

 

 

I'd like to put this "let's not cheat" post to bed by pointing out the logic implied by Des's summation here:

Look at the whole #Alliance thing. If one of that group rolls scum, you think they'll back down from forming a "town" power core with the other members of it who are actually town? Hell to the nah. They'll act like they're ready to #alliance it up just like normal.

Des basically just stated why me saying up front that we can't play that way is a Town null tell. If I'm scum? Why not abuse it since I *DIDN'T* get a chance to say it pregame? I gain nothing as scum pointing this out and instead make myself a huge suspect - at least in AJ and Dice's eyes. So there is zero scum motivation for making this post.

 

My Town personal motivation is obviously because I actually care about the integrity of the game. Which was my stated motivation in my original post.  Okay?  Good?  Good.

 

 

This post concerns me a great deal. Yates, you are an experienced player (who is not afraid to go for a big play on D1) and in that light, anything you say can be read into as a play. You know this as well as the others who have commented on it. In that light, it bugs me that you decided to make your 3 Amigos post before anyone asked - it wasn't a thing before you made it a thing, and that speaks of play-building. You throw in a Seer claim on top of that and then in the post directly above try to explain how we should take that as null tell, your argument being that you have no motivation to claim Seer as mafia. This strikes me as misdirection.

 

The feast that Des chimed in with his explanation of "Seer Cover" can be taken as support of a teammate, as can his soothing "nothing to see here" post below.

 

Again I don't really understand what you're trying to say here DPR. So you think me and Yates are mafia together? Even tho I have been doing anything BUT trying to defend him this game???

 

 

 

The only caveat here is that you COULD be scum and ALSO value the "integrity" of the "Three Amigos/soulread with Dice" thing, and wanted to preempt AJ and Dice being able to use that against you.

 

As stated above, this reads to me like more cover of the "cover". No one is really sweating Yates, so why all the dancing?

 

What? I WAS TRYING TO SWEAT YATES HERE. Why are you trying to act like I was defending him???

[WWWwombat]

No talking about an ongoing game.

 

Nothing wrong with referencing publicly available info imo as long as it doesn't go too far.

[Darthe]

Going to go ahead and toss this out here.  

 

I work two jobs.  

 

Tuesday, Thursday: 330-830 I'll be gone

Friday: 8-830 I'll be gone

Saturday: 9-4 I'll be gone

 

 

On call for the other job so it'll be hit or miss.

 

Graduate school

 

Monday, Wednesday: 330-830 but I can sneak online at this time for a bit.

[WWWwombat]

Through p. 28.  Des is down to 85% town.

[Darthe]

Womby are you focusing on Des alone or are you accounting for Salami as well?

[WWWwombat]

Don't understand why Thane is trying to paint seer cover as CCs when seer cover has already been explained in response to his reaction to Yates' claim.

 

Also, my n0 villapeek is Hally.

[Tommyrod]

@Everyone; as a mod I prefer not to discuss ongoing games.

 

I understand flips from other games will influence your leans in this one but please do not mention them until the game has ended.

[WWWwombat]

Womby are you focusing on Des alone or are you accounting for Salami as well?

 

Salami is completely null, so it doesn't really make a difference to me atm.  Same thing with Barm wrt Verb.

[WWWwombat]

[v]##Arsis[/v]

 

 

Mostly like Des so far but I think he's getting distracted by shiny Derfs and DPRs.

 

Also interested in developing Kiv's reads a bit.

[Sili Quirrels]

Re: the bolded.

 

Problem is that due to the lynch rules in this game, your votes DO matter this early on, or they can if there's a tie at EOD.  You vote someone, a few other people vote, even if you unvote later, as long as they haven't lost the lead when deadline hits that "enhancing a wagon" bit you think doesn't matter could be the difference in who dies.

 

I'm not saying you shouldn't vote, by any means, but don't make the mistake of thinking your vote doesn't matter this early, because it very well can.

 

I'm sure if this hypothetical wagon is driven by villagers it'll have votes in and out of it up until eod due to itt gameplay rather than wagon-size and peer pressure. And if town is actually incompetent enough to vote for the biggest wagon for no other reason than apparent popular support in the vote counts, and not adjust their reads for itt road-bumps like me removing my vote, then town is going to lose with or without my vote in the first place.

[Darthe]

Don't understand why Thane is trying to paint seer cover as CCs when seer cover has already been explained in response to his reaction to Yates' claim.

 

Also, my n0 villapeek is Hally.

That was unfathomable by Thane.  I missed it at first and just went back and saw it.  No clue but I still have him as a moderate town read.

[WWWwombat]

@Everyone; as a mod I prefer not to discuss ongoing games.

 

I understand flips from other games will influence your leans in this one but please do not mention them until the game has ended.

 

buzzkill

[Nynaeve]

 

 

No talking about an ongoing game.

There is a problem with it because they're both still alive in an ongoing game and mentioning it is moot without flips.

 

Nothing wrong with referencing publicly available info imo as long as it doesn't go too far.

[Nynaeve]

it put my response in the quote -_-

[WWWwombat]

Well I stopped reading that game anyway once it blew up to like 489395496943 pages so lel.

[Nynaeve]

quote name="WWWwombat" post="3377237" timestamp="1415722101"]

 

 

 

No talking about an ongoing game.

 

Nothing wrong with referencing publicly available info imo as long as it doesn't go too far.

 

 

There is a problem with it because they're both still alive in an ongoing game and mentioning it is moot without flips.