[Advanced] X-Men: Rise of Apocalypse - GAME OVER

[WWWwombat]

Now I'm confused. And unsure about my first statement again

Read: Oops I just realized I said something super scummy. Time to backpedal and plead Confusion.

 

Would be willing to lynch Mish now too.

[michellem]

Uhm, no? First I was thinking about lynching Verbal since we hadn't seen any advancement; we got no coroners on no-one and we simply had no chance to figured out anything. It was the only thing I could think of to make something new happen. Then I went to check the front page, and I saw that RTE's name was written in gold qqich threw a whole new factor into it, and thus made my first musings about lynching verbal more or less irrelevant again. And I'm cnofused because we have info that I have no idea what to do with or where it comes from.

[Leelou]

Vote Count

 

Lily (1) - Wombat

 

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

[aemonkristen]

There will be consequences if you try to lynch me when there is mafia still around.  Dire consequences.  And they will protect me at all costs. 

 

I keep coming back to this. "They will protect me at all costs". As I was reading through Day 1, I started focusing on the people who were arguing against a Verb lynch in the hopes of seeing something that just didn't fit. I found it. 

 

 

 

unvote, vote Verbal

 

On the surface this looks ballsy but we already know that Verb is unwilling to gimp his own setup.  

 

looks town to me anyhow.

 

 

What I find interesting here is that Csarmi is the first to vote Verb and Darthe says he "looks town". However, later in Day 1 he continues hounding Nolder for voting Verb. This is such an extreme contradiction I was just shaking my head as I read it. What I don't get is why he voted Nolder before Nolder voted Verb. Joe vote or was this an intentional D1 effort to take out Nolder? Also, I did not get the cultural reference. Just so you know.

 

Hey Mike? MikeMikeMikeMikeMike! Guess what day it is!

 

*Sigh* Wednesday..

 

HUMP DAAAAAY!

 

unvote vote Nolder

 

 

Hmm... nobody jumped on the nolder lolz. Given how populsr that os I actually find it telling.

 

 

 

Hmm... nobody jumped on the nolder lolz. Given how populsr that os I actually find it telling.

This is making me like my joke vote. It makes no sense.

 

 

 

My sense of humor really doesn't work at all here does it..

 

I now fully sympathize eith the Aiel.

 

If it was a joke vote, why does he continue maintaining the vote?

 

Verb himself has stated that the game is designed as a pu zzle, meant to be figured out. He cares about his setup, you should all plan to use that in your favor. I certainly do.

 

Third parties die on sight. I can only imagine one or two exceptions and you would be foolish to rely on their word in any other situation. After all Csarmi, was Des conf. Town? He claimed human.

 

Last, I second Ishy about praising verb.

 

 

I think he was honest about needing to be the last mafia lynched and I think mafia know this. It seems natural that they would push to have him killed but again, this is all pointless conjecture until we kill enough of them to substantiate or invalidate my hypothesis.

 

Btw, my guess is that (because it fits the theme) his death will either increase thw mafia abilities or will add some mechanic like famine/recruiting to the game. This has no bearing on the game, I just want to be able and brag later if accurate.

 

Here is where the defense of Verbal begins. However, he seems to believe that scum is going to push for a Verbal lynch when it is clearly stated that scum will defend him. I found that extremely odd. It seems to me that the whole point of the horsemen is to make sure Verb DOESN'T get lynched.

 

 

 

 

 

We also know Verbal is WIFOMing about the utility of his lynch. Personally, I think it would help the mafia. Apocalypse is a tough mofo, Verb seems to be goading us into lynching him in his rules, and I doubt he would have made his bastard setup easily breakable by a D1 modlynch.

I'm not expecting to break the game. I think it will have no effect besides maybe -1 mafia.

Or if it does it'll be an effect which puts the game more into balance not less.

I agree with this.

 

I think we would have to lynch Verbal sometime or the other to win the game. I am not sure what will happen if we want to lynch him day 5 or something. According to me, we should find out the pattern at the early stages of the game.

2 quick things..

 

1) according to you?

 

2) bringing a game more into balance only helps if town are the underdogs. Did you ever consider that mafia might be underpowered? Betcha Nol did but he decided not to mention it.

 

unvote vote nol

 

 

Here, Darthe unvotes and votes Nolder...again. Wtf? His vote was already on Nolder. Ths is a very old tactic to try and draw attention away from the fact that you were already there and to change your name in the voting order. Only one player alignment uses tactics like this. *cough* scum *cough*

Rory, not you man.

 

Salami I think anything in the initial role PMs is ok but past that.. *shrug*

 

I'm interested in seeing what you pull up on Nol and habe a couple things of my own ti add later.

 

And now he asks someone else to case Nolder and he will add his thoughts later. This reads as "make a case so I can hitch a ride on it".

 

 

 

[aemonkristen]

That's an illogical standpoint. Again, you have not addressed the points that I made. Lets build a logical foundation for each.

 

1) We cannot rely on the honesty of the moderator to determine what effects may come of lynching him.

 

2) Mafia are likely aware of more than we are.

 

3) Any potential occrance is more likely of harm than aid to our team.

 

4) Verbal does not count toward a mafia majority.

 

5) We know of no consequence to him cirrently living

 

6) His lynch provides no information that helps the town.

 

7) If verbal doesn't count toward a mafia majority, if he is more likely to impede us with his death where he currently does nothing harmful to us that we are aware of, if he provides the least amount of information, if he provides the most likely risk of any possible lynch, and if his death may directly correlate to a shift in the powers of the game then we should not lynch verbal until all other mafia are dead to our knowledge.

 

This is simple. We are aware of our role PMs and the presence of mafia. Waiting to lynch him cannot harm us to our knowledge but we know that lynching him may cause harm. Why then would we kill him?

 

The answer is that no logical townsmember should be pushing for this.

 

Completely logical and rational points. Extremely convincing if taken on it's own. However, coupled with his earlier behavior, I still feel he is just doing all he can to defend Verbal.

 

Hey, here's a crazy thought. Verb initiLly designs the game with an underutelized mafia built into it or a chaos factor (easy enoigh for a mod to do). You kill verb, it adds to mafia or triggers that factor. Thus the mafia is in balance either way but now has more tools in their belt and/or the game becomes that much harder for us to figure out and thus succeed in.

 

What? If the mafia starts out "underutilized", by definition the game is unbalanced. You know better than that. FOS.

 

Any unknown effect is a problem.  Doubly so at the cost of our first day's lynch and subsequent info.  Triply when we anticipate the effect likely adding difficulty to the game for the town.

 

This is not an argument that can logically be made from the towns side.  

 

I like the way he use the effect as the first and third problem, making it ook like there is more going on than there really is. He also tries to reinforce his idea of a "mafia power-up" if Verbal gets lynched. "Adding difficulty to the game for the town".

 

 

My reason for wanting to lynch verb is I think it will remove him from being an influence.

To explain. I think it would stop him "barstarding" anymore things, such as adding fake roles, scenarios, and the like. I think it will leave all current barstard things and inbuilt things in play, but I thought it would take him out of being an active influence on the game and turn him into the traditional mod. A facilitator.

 

I've always just known that in barstard games you vote the mod to check, then you lynch the mod

For the ooint of countering this it should be noted that Verb is mechanic, not a player. Killing him isnt going to affect his ability to influence the game because he is modding it.

 

None of us pushing against this disagree with killing him. We simply want info first so that our decision is made at the best tactical moment and not a complete shot in the dark.

 

@Des LOL, but would you believe an innocent child in a bastard setup?

 

 

I completely agree with Darthe's reasoning here. Nothing illogical or contrary about it. Now, he finally gets to his Nolder "case"

 

Reasoning:

 

His first statement is fine, different experiences blah blah blah.

 

The way he singled out and ignored Berf wasn't. Berf echoed the same points many of us have made. Since we can't all be scum this is blatant brushing off of something he didn't want to defend against.

 

Third statement is my favorite. Nol practically started and most heavily advocated this whole discussion and he directly lies about it to Des. Without him this entire rigamarole wouldn't have even come about.

 

Then aftee a series of quotes he is majorly passive aggeessive. Notably, dropping something to defend yourself is different from dropping something to help town.

 

I don't disagree that he has reactions. I also don't think that his death wouod be a disservice to validate his very strong opinions though.

 

As for the next two points he isn't off imo. Nol is going to be such a wild card this game. Now lets look at Len.

 

And now Len (If you remember, Darthe was just as hot to lynch Len on D1)

 

 

 

 

 

We also know Verbal is WIFOMing about the utility of his lynch. Personally, I think it would help the mafia. Apocalypse is a tough mofo, Verb seems to be goading us into lynching him in his rules, and I doubt he would have made his bastard setup easily breakable by a D1 modlynch.

You said it in a much shorter and better way than me.

 

We also know Verbal is WIFOMing about the utility of his lynch. Personally, I think it would help the mafia. Apocalypse is a tough mofo, Verb seems to be goading us into lynching him in his rules, and I doubt he would have made his bastard setup easily breakable by a D1 modlynch.

I'm not expecting to break the game. I think it will have no effect besides maybe -1 mafia.

Or if it does it'll be an effect which puts the game more into balance not less.

Then you are senile or naive.

 

Think about it. If a player is doing everything they can, goading you and poking at you and generally being scummy on purpose do you lynch them or do you go against what they want and not lynch them? What would you automatically think if a player did that? Jester? Its probably not a good idea to give Verbal what he wants this early in the game.

And now he thinks Verb is jestering us? That's a reach.

 

 

Nonononono, you misunderstood. I was using the jester as an example of a player role that wants you to lynch them and it helping them. Im not saying Verb is a jester only that lynching him right now will most likely not help us.

 

Ishy, Verbal's "Role PM" says right in it that he doesn't count for numbers. Stop obfuscating.

Meh, I only read it once, the first day. Didn't remember that. Let's just kill Len then.

D: </3

You're too jokey. If Lily wasn't basically on Nols side unconditionally (really not how I wanna say that) and breakinf all logic to remain there it would probably be your death.

 

 

"You're too jokey". Not exactly a masterpiece of a case, but since you already had your sights set on Nolder, I guess you didn't need to go into depth.

 

Btw Lily just put Nol at L-1. That was not a hammer. Badly scummy.

 

Since when is putting someone at L-1 for pressure scummy? Scummy is the guy that hammers before the votee has a chance to defend.

 

 

 

 

Salutations!

 

Perhaps those in gold are confirmed.

 

This last post is the one that pinged me hard enough to go back and look over all of Darthe's activity. Confirmed...what? Town? Scum? I highly doubt that out of 5 dead there are only 2 town. I also find it unlikely that gold, which we know means "truth" would be applied to the scum team. In my opinion , the most logical reason for the gold names would be to indicate that they have said something which is true. Unfortunately, I do not have time to go through the thread and look for it tonight. So, I will simply

 

VOTE DARTHE

[Darthe]

You're killing me. Now I have to defend myself and case Lily? Not game related,, but seriously FML.

[Darthe]

And I will respond to you. May take an hour or two buf Ill grt here. Off work in an hour.

[LilyElizabeth]

Nice case, Aemon. I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees Darthe as scummy. Or I should say scummier than usual. 

 

Vote Darthe

 

 

(And yeah, Wombat, I probably did overdo it a bit out of enthusiasm. Sorry. He's just bugging me. ) 

[LilyElizabeth]

I keep having this crazy thought occur to me, so I'm just going to share it with y'all. What if lynching Verb would give us coroner reports? 

[Lenlo]

I keep having this crazy thought occur to me, so I'm just going to share it with y'all. What if lynching Verb would give us coroner reports? 

Doesnt really sound like a dire consequence to me personally.

[aemonkristen]

Interesting thought, but "dire consequences" still make me hesitant to vote Verbal. We know we need to kill the horsemen first if we want to win the game.

[csarmi]

Well, he didn't explain what he meant by dire consequences. Doesn't mean the consequences would be dire for town.

 

I'm fine with gicing Aemon a pass for now. My main reason for finding Berf/Aemon suspicious is that weird post that looks like symp signalling. (#196)

 

I prefer a Lily train for a Darthe one, though I don't mind competing trains either.

 

unvote vote Lily

[csarmi]

I keep having this crazy thought occur to me, so I'm just going to share it with y'all. What if lynching Verb would give us coroner reports?

It's not out of the question. I find it more likely that there is a town coroner role (who may or may not be alive at this point).

[Darthe]

Okay so I didn't really notice Lily until she started pushing hard on Len.  My main focus at the time was Nol and thus the counterwagon looked contrived to me.  When I went back through I noticed some things.  Here are most relevant quotes from D/N1.

 

 

 

I have only read two of Verbal´s bastard games but I think that figuring out the puzzles seem to be important.

 

dingdingding

 

 

Mod Note:  I may or may not be lying in PM responses or game posts.  However, your role PMs contain valid information and are not lies.

 

This may or may not be true, if I understand things correctly.

 

 

When looking back at Lily this bothered me.  She was the first to mention issues with our PM's and that sort of WIFOM right off the bat hurts a lot for people.  Not to mention that shortly after the mod stated in gold that it wasn't the case.

 

I love Verbal.

 

Note the wording on his "truth." He did not say everything in our role PMs is truth, just that they contain truth. They may also contain lies. Having said that, I'm inclined to believe he meant that they are completely truth, but I just wanted to put that out there. 

 

I don't see anything wrong with setup talk in a bastard game, either. 

 

Another thing that hasn't been touched.  Three people tried for this and were told one of them would get an ability.  No idea if it was bastard modding or what but it seems strange that none of them have really broached it sense.  The one that did (blanking on who atm) strikes me as making a townie decision by bringing it up.  Can anybody imagine mafia not having at least one person attempt this though?  It makes sense to me that they would want a representative.

 

 

Heeeey. Leave our poor little mod alone. Meanie heads.

 

 

 

 

Oh, I have a vote. I'm more popular than you.

 
SILENCE, MINION!!!!!!!!
 
 
Oh wait, can you go grab me a medium coffee?  Just Splenda.  Thanks!!  Oh and a strudel!  What a dear minion.....

 

Who the f@$% likes Splenda?

 

He said there'll be a pattern to the madness. So it's worth asking him questions. Eventually, we might even find out how the game works. Probably after dying...

And let's face it, he's hardly the sharpest hairbrush in his daughter's Barbie play set. He's bound to slip up sooner or later.

 

 

Can I modkill you yet?

 

When were you not allowed to modkill someone? Just scream 'ima bastard' and everyone will understand.

 

The first line of this quote struck me as weird the first time I read it. I don't like it any more now than I did then. 

 

 

 

3. Lenlo - "Don't pick on the mod." was the only post I can remember/notice, mixed feels on this one. I don't think I've played with you before? Seems a throwaway line but hmm.
 

 

Im sure we have at some point.

 

Des I applaud your attempt at trying to focus the game into more serious discussion but your assessment on me is pretty off.
If I cared about figuring Verbal's puzzles I'd be afraid to lynch him because "something bad might happen". Instead, I don't care.
As a person in his position he by definition cannot be town. He knows everyone's roles. He is scum/third party aligned.
I wasn't trying to create some big debate about whether we should lynch him or not I was trying to get someone else to vote him first to see if he would even count the vote while also commenting on the fact that even if "something bad" did happen town is in it's best position to weather it on day 1.

But the one crucial mistake your making here is this: You think he has to have an alignment at all. For all we know his alignment could be MOD, the thing holding the fabric of this game together or some random crap. He doesnt have to be playing for any team or playing against any team.

 

Now your right about us being in the best position to weather the bad thing on D1, but if we can avoid a bad thing at all shouldnt we? Why choose to take a bad thing just for the sake of testing something when we can find scum, get rid of all of them and if the game isnt over *then* try and lynch Verb when we have nothing else to worry about.

 

Still arguing against lynching Verb. Getting more heated. 

 

 

We also know Verbal is WIFOMing about the utility of his lynch. Personally, I think it would help the mafia. Apocalypse is a tough mofo, Verb seems to be goading us into lynching him in his rules, and I doubt he would have made his bastard setup easily breakable by a D1 modlynch.

You said it in a much shorter and better way than me.

 

 

We also know Verbal is WIFOMing about the utility of his lynch. Personally, I think it would help the mafia. Apocalypse is a tough mofo, Verb seems to be goading us into lynching him in his rules, and I doubt he would have made his bastard setup easily breakable by a D1 modlynch.

I'm not expecting to break the game. I think it will have no effect besides maybe -1 mafia.

Or if it does it'll be an effect which puts the game more into balance not less.

 

Then you are senile or naive. 

 

Think about it. If a player is doing everything they can, goading you and poking at you and generally being scummy on purpose do you lynch them or do you go against what they want and not lynch them? What would you automatically think if a player did that? Jester? Its probably not a good idea to give Verbal what he wants this early in the game.

 

And now he thinks Verb is jestering us? That's a reach. 

 

 

I'm not feeling really good about Lenlo and am willing to vote there. Darthe is pinging, but I always think he is scummy, so I'll most likely move my vote in a little bit, especially since nobody else likes Darthe for a lynch. 

 

 

I don't see Nol's behavior as scummy, and Mish is acting like normal day one Mish. I'm okay with the two of them. 

 

 

This.  I called this case crap when I read it on D1 and I stand by that.  What is pingy about Len's mention of Verb being a bastard mod?  We are in a bastard game.  Referencing both Len and Nol, passively going against both and bringing up the Verb argument, all looks like fueling the fire needlessly.  You can see that in her first two responses.  The rest really just reiterates that.  Did Len say that Verb was a jester?  Not remotely.  But she is willing to push him on it.  She isn't willing to stick on me since it isn't what most wanted which shows that she cares about public opinion.

 

Unvote

Vote Lenlo

 

But if she is so for a Len lynch then why did it take her almost a day and a half train to vote him?  She advocated it more than any other.  She was the only one to make a case against Len.

 

I don't see Nol's actions as anything more than expressing his opinion. I'm voting Lenlo based on the quotes I pulled up earlier. I'll switch to Nol if need be, but I'd rather lynch Lenlo.

 

Leaving options open, stance has changed slightly to reflect this.  

[Darthe]

I don't like Lily trying to push my lynch so quickly.

It went from her being willing to hammer to putting me at L-1.

IDK maybe it's because I'm in the hot seat but it seems like there is a rush to shut me up all of a sudden.

 

Quoted because its from a dead person.

 

Not liking Lily or Salami's play at all right now.

Lenlo, Lily, Salami. There ya go.

 

Same thing, this one in gold.

 

 

What do you not like in my play?

Don't like how you and Lily basically single-handedly saved Len's ass and stalled his lynch. Len was clearly the scummier of the two.

 

 

And again.

 

So, you would have preferred a random lynch, Ish?

 

 

^scummy question.

This sort of thing is why I want lily dead. Theres no way to read that or have it desponded to withiut incriminating Ishy.

Ima let those sit together.  Salami, Ishy, and I jumped on Lily for this.  Ishy died that night and she has been pushing Csarmi ever since.  

 

Lenlo, that late vote doesn't make you look any better. 

Back to this after the Nol consolidation.  Note that from the Ishy question forward that this is all night activity.  Watch how much she expands and pushes onto new people.

 

 

Also Ishy you appears 10 mins after deadline and starts preaching omgwtf?

Don't like this. Ishy made it very clear that he was not happy about the deadline time because he was still at work then. Making something out of nothing. I'd be happy with looking at Salami more closely tomorrow. 

 

 

 

By that I mean I'd vote him. 

 

 

Vote Salami

 

for reasons already stated. I hate it when someone tries to make something out of nothing. 

 

And here is her beginning for D2.  I consider myself more of a gut player but Lily's play doesn't logically fit the agenda of someone that wants to find scum.  She appears to me to be more interested in killing people and staying alive as can be seen in these quotes alone by her aggression towards those who question or prod her and her efforts to instigate or inflame situations.  D2 coming later.  

 

On to defense.

[csarmi]

Mish, Lily and Me applied for the "I love Verbal" T-shirtrole.

 

After I posted about that some things being ignored bothers me (and failed to mention this) Mish said she got nothing from this and commented that it's weird that I didn't mention it. Then I answered with "Master, Master, where's the role that I've been after".

 

I think Lily chimed in and said she got nothing either.

[Darthe]

Responding in the quote in Green.  Dammit.

 

 

There will be consequences if you try to lynch me when there is mafia still around.  Dire consequences.  And they will protect me at all costs. 

 

I keep coming back to this. "They will protect me at all costs". As I was reading through Day 1, I started focusing on the people who were arguing against a Verb lynch in the hopes of seeing something that just didn't fit. I found it. 

 

Okay, you make a valid point here.  I question if his words should be believed to this extent and if scum would actually stick their neck out on thread for him, but this isn't something that I can argue.  Too many unknown variables and so we are left with what we each believe.

 

 

unvote, vote Verbal

 

On the surface this looks ballsy but we already know that Verb is unwilling to gimp his own setup.  

 

looks town to me anyhow.

 

 

What I find interesting here is that Csarmi is the first to vote Verb and Darthe says he "looks town". However, later in Day 1 he continues hounding Nolder for voting Verb. This is such an extreme contradiction I was just shaking my head as I read it. What I don't get is why he voted Nolder before Nolder voted Verb. Joe vote or was this an intentional D1 effort to take out Nolder? Also, I did not get the cultural reference. Just so you know.

 

I don't know if this is a joke?  Salami clearly decided to test the waters like we do on JN (you probably don't know about that).  Nol wanted him dead and pushed for a lynch.  This one isn't contradictory at all mate, you just didn't get it.

 

Hey Mike? MikeMikeMikeMikeMike! Guess what day it is!

*Sigh* Wednesday..

HUMP DAAAAAY!

unvote vote Nolder

 

 

Hmm... nobody jumped on the nolder lolz. Given how populsr that os I actually find it telling.

 

 

 

Hmm... nobody jumped on the nolder lolz. Given how populsr that os I actually find it telling.

This is making me like my joke vote. It makes no sense.

 

 

 

My sense of humor really doesn't work at all here does it..

I now fully sympathize eith the Aiel.

 

If it was a joke vote, why does he continue maintaining the vote?

 

Why would I remove it?  Please explain this a bit more instead of leaving a suggestive question.  

 

Verb himself has stated that the game is designed as a pu zzle, meant to be figured out. He cares about his setup, you should all plan to use that in your favor. I certainly do.

Third parties die on sight. I can only imagine one or two exceptions and you would be foolish to rely on their word in any other situation. After all Csarmi, was Des conf. Town? He claimed human.

Last, I second Ishy about praising verb.

 

 

I think he was honest about needing to be the last mafia lynched and I think mafia know this. It seems natural that they would push to have him killed but again, this is all pointless conjecture until we kill enough of them to substantiate or invalidate my hypothesis.

Btw, my guess is that (because it fits the theme) his death will either increase thw mafia abilities or will add some mechanic like famine/recruiting to the game. This has no bearing on the game, I just want to be able and brag later if accurate.

 

Here is where the defense of Verbal begins. However, he seems to believe that scum is going to push for a Verbal lynch when it is clearly stated that scum will defend him. I found that extremely odd. It seems to me that the whole point of the horsemen is to make sure Verb DOESN'T get lynched.

 

I believe now as I have all game.  Verbal's death before the death of the entire scum team will harm the town.  That is my ultimate belief and I am firmly against killing him.  I have no proof of this, only his words, and likewise we cannot base player casework off of them.  Hence I did not do so with Nolder.  The two statements from Verb are contradictory.  

 

 

 

 

We also know Verbal is WIFOMing about the utility of his lynch. Personally, I think it would help the mafia. Apocalypse is a tough mofo, Verb seems to be goading us into lynching him in his rules, and I doubt he would have made his bastard setup easily breakable by a D1 modlynch.

I'm not expecting to break the game. I think it will have no effect besides maybe -1 mafia.
Or if it does it'll be an effect which puts the game more into balance not less.

I agree with this.

I think we would have to lynch Verbal sometime or the other to win the game. I am not sure what will happen if we want to lynch him day 5 or something. According to me, we should find out the pattern at the early stages of the game.

2 quick things..

1) according to you?

2) bringing a game more into balance only helps if town are the underdogs. Did you ever consider that mafia might be underpowered? Betcha Nol did but he decided not to mention it.

unvote vote nol

 

 

Here, Darthe unvotes and votes Nolder...again. Wtf? His vote was already on Nolder. Ths is a very old tactic to try and draw attention away from the fact that you were already there and to change your name in the voting order. Only one player alignment uses tactics like this. *cough* scum *cough*

 

Can't argue this and don't want to.  If I say that I thought I wasn't voting Nol you are left to believe me or not.  If I say I wanted to add pressure it is still completely unverifiable and subjective.  Thus lets consider it a mark against me.  I can live with that.

 

Rory, not you man.

Salami I think anything in the initial role PMs is ok but past that.. *shrug*

I'm interested in seeing what you pull up on Nol and habe a couple things of my own ti add later.

 

And now he asks someone else to case Nolder and he will add his thoughts later. This reads as "make a case so I can hitch a ride on it".

 

Again, you don't really know me well so I don't expect you to get this but I am too busy to take much time for this stuff lately.  Sorry man, wish I had a better way to explain this but its not a surprise to anyone thats playing with me lately.  I doubt I have spent this much time online at home in a month and a half.

 

 

 

Okay, now that I have responded to each point as best I can I am going to say that this first half was very very circumstantial and subjective.  I don't see anything hard or evidentiary against me here, just a lot of "why this" and suggestive posting.  Perhaps the second will have something that I can respond to in more concrete terms.

[Darthe]

Mish, Lily and Me applied for the "I love Verbal" T-shirtrole.

 

After I posted about that some things being ignored bothers me (and failed to mention this) Mish said she got nothing from this and commented that it's weird that I didn't mention it. Then I answered with "Master, Master, where's the role that I've been after".

 

I think Lily chimed in and said she got nothing either.

 

Right, thank you.  I figure that if one of you is lying it is Lily and otherwise Verb just wanted to be praised a bit.  Probably the latter unless he said he would give a gift in gold.

[hazelkrs1]

Okay so about to do an extensive reread. Sorry for my absence btw, I forgot to mention that I'd be off for a couple days. Too bad too, mebbe I could have made a case on Mish so everyone would quit ignoring her scummy play.

 

Two quick things before I being rereading:

 

RTE and his ability - I'd really be surprised if Verbal included a role that could permanently shut down night for the entirety of the game, that would be a SERIOUS disadvantage for the mafia team. However, Verbal came forth and already said RTE ("Bishop") ended night once, so I guess we'll see if it can happen again. To be safe tho we should try and keep the day phase from ending if RTE isn't available. But yeah, the character does fit. Bishop was basically the Timecop of the X-men universe, only with less of this:

 

 

Hell yeah that's a Timecop splits gif. Jealous much?

 

Oh yeah, and fos to those saying this type of ability wouldn't be helpful to town. Depriving the mafia team of their NK on a continuous basis completely WRECKS the mafia team's chances of winning. It's true that we don't have coroner reports, but if anything this actually gives us greater motivation to continue letting RTE do his thang. With no coroner reports, there's no way of knowing how close to winning we are, so it's essentially lynch till we find out if we win, or lose. The problem is that the mafia team will obviously only kill townies, or at least people not on their team, so that means we have to choose our lynches really well. Taking away the mafia's night kill will give us a bit more cushion.

 

As for town PR's, we already know that the Cop's info will most likely not be as helpful this game, what with the "Alignment/Appear as" thing (btw, not saying that I buy Mish being town that would appear as mafia, it would be extremely easy for a mafioso to claim that kind of thing in this game since they would also know about the wifom inherent in the situation, and there's a fairly good chance they might have one or more mafiosos that would "appear as" town). Virtually any other investigative role that would ascertain alignment info would be susceptible to this same trap. And any investigative role that DOESN'T give alignment (Tracker, Follower, etc.) isn't always rock solid anyways, and without a coroner report we wouldn't be able to vet the player who claimed such an investigative role.

 

As for non-investigative role, well most of those would have to do with some kind of protection type of thing, which wouldn't be needed since there's no NK. Essentially there's no role that I can think of that would help town SO MUCH in this game that it would be any kind of big loss, whereas there are PLENTY of anti-town roles that I can think of that are awesome to nullify in this game. We won't have to worry about NK's, and other kinds of tomfoolery mafia does at night, and likely won't have to worry about conversion elements (unless there's some kind of day-recruiter).

 

Town loses very little, but gains a whole lot more. So yeah, anyone arguing the opposite is probably scum frustrated that their plans got thrown into a grinder.

 

Second thing is that Dice's defense was weaksauce, and he didn't reveal anything about his role even tho he had to know he'd possibly be getting lynched. This tells me there's a pretty decent chance that he was scum. Flavor kinda backs this up as well. I could maybe see him as 3rd party instead of mafia, but not town.

 

Okay, rereading time.

 

*looks at clock*

 

...  after audit. Grrrrr.

[Darthe]

 

That's an illogical standpoint. Again, you have not addressed the points that I made. Lets build a logical foundation for each.

 

1) We cannot rely on the honesty of the moderator to determine what effects may come of lynching him.

 

2) Mafia are likely aware of more than we are.

 

3) Any potential occrance is more likely of harm than aid to our team.

 

4) Verbal does not count toward a mafia majority.

 

5) We know of no consequence to him cirrently living

 

6) His lynch provides no information that helps the town.

 

7) If verbal doesn't count toward a mafia majority, if he is more likely to impede us with his death where he currently does nothing harmful to us that we are aware of, if he provides the least amount of information, if he provides the most likely risk of any possible lynch, and if his death may directly correlate to a shift in the powers of the game then we should not lynch verbal until all other mafia are dead to our knowledge.

 

This is simple. We are aware of our role PMs and the presence of mafia. Waiting to lynch him cannot harm us to our knowledge but we know that lynching him may cause harm. Why then would we kill him?

 

The answer is that no logical townsmember should be pushing for this.

 

Completely logical and rational points. Extremely convincing if taken on it's own. However, coupled with his earlier behavior, I still feel he is just doing all he can to defend Verbal.

 

Thank you.  I do try.  

 

Hey, here's a crazy thought. Verb initiLly designs the game with an underutelized mafia built into it or a chaos factor (easy enoigh for a mod to do). You kill verb, it adds to mafia or triggers that factor. Thus the mafia is in balance either way but now has more tools in their belt and/or the game becomes that much harder for us to figure out and thus succeed in.

 

What? If the mafia starts out "underutilized", by definition the game is unbalanced. You know better than that. FOS.

 

Its really not hard to manage.  I did it in my first Ultimate Showdown game.  When Santa died Christmas came and the entire game got boosted.  That said I think the chaos factor is more likely.  

 

Any unknown effect is a problem.  Doubly so at the cost of our first day's lynch and subsequent info.  Triply when we anticipate the effect likely adding difficulty to the game for the town.

 

This is not an argument that can logically be made from the towns side.  

 

I like the way he use the effect as the first and third problem, making it ook like there is more going on than there really is. He also tries to reinforce his idea of a "mafia power-up" if Verbal gets lynched. "Adding difficulty to the game for the town".

 

You forgot  the second.  "Doubly so".  See, three things that are individually different DV's means three problems.  I very much feel that its going to be bad for town to kill Verb too early.  You may disagree if you want but that is not framework for a case against me.

 

 

My reason for wanting to lynch verb is I think it will remove him from being an influence.

To explain. I think it would stop him "barstarding" anymore things, such as adding fake roles, scenarios, and the like. I think it will leave all current barstard things and inbuilt things in play, but I thought it would take him out of being an active influence on the game and turn him into the traditional mod. A facilitator.

 

I've always just known that in barstard games you vote the mod to check, then you lynch the mod

For the ooint of countering this it should be noted that Verb is mechanic, not a player. Killing him isnt going to affect his ability to influence the game because he is modding it.

 

None of us pushing against this disagree with killing him. We simply want info first so that our decision is made at the best tactical moment and not a complete shot in the dark.

 

@Des LOL, but would you believe an innocent child in a bastard setup?

 

 

I completely agree with Darthe's reasoning here. Nothing illogical or contrary about it. Now, he finally gets to his Nolder "case"

 

Appreciated again.

 

Reasoning:

 

His first statement is fine, different experiences blah blah blah.

 

The way he singled out and ignored Berf wasn't. Berf echoed the same points many of us have made. Since we can't all be scum this is blatant brushing off of something he didn't want to defend against.

 

Third statement is my favorite. Nol practically started and most heavily advocated this whole discussion and he directly lies about it to Des. Without him this entire rigamarole wouldn't have even come about.

 

Then aftee a series of quotes he is majorly passive aggeessive. Notably, dropping something to defend yourself is different from dropping something to help town.

 

I don't disagree that he has reactions. I also don't think that his death wouod be a disservice to validate his very strong opinions though.

 

As for the next two points he isn't off imo. Nol is going to be such a wild card this game. Now lets look at Len.

 

And now Len (If you remember, Darthe was just as hot to lynch Len on D1)

 

Was I? Care to quote that?  Anywhere at all that I wanted Len to die?

 

 

 

 

 

We also know Verbal is WIFOMing about the utility of his lynch. Personally, I think it would help the mafia. Apocalypse is a tough mofo, Verb seems to be goading us into lynching him in his rules, and I doubt he would have made his bastard setup easily breakable by a D1 modlynch.

You said it in a much shorter and better way than me.

 

We also know Verbal is WIFOMing about the utility of his lynch. Personally, I think it would help the mafia. Apocalypse is a tough mofo, Verb seems to be goading us into lynching him in his rules, and I doubt he would have made his bastard setup easily breakable by a D1 modlynch.

I'm not expecting to break the game. I think it will have no effect besides maybe -1 mafia.

Or if it does it'll be an effect which puts the game more into balance not less.

Then you are senile or naive.

 

Think about it. If a player is doing everything they can, goading you and poking at you and generally being scummy on purpose do you lynch them or do you go against what they want and not lynch them? What would you automatically think if a player did that? Jester? Its probably not a good idea to give Verbal what he wants this early in the game.

And now he thinks Verb is jestering us? That's a reach.

 

 

Nonononono, you misunderstood. I was using the jester as an example of a player role that wants you to lynch them and it helping them. Im not saying Verb is a jester only that lynching him right now will most likely not help us.

 

Ishy, Verbal's "Role PM" says right in it that he doesn't count for numbers. Stop obfuscating.

Meh, I only read it once, the first day. Didn't remember that. Let's just kill Len then.

D: </3

You're too jokey. If Lily wasn't basically on Nols side unconditionally (really not how I wanna say that) and breakinf all logic to remain there it would probably be your death.

 

 

"You're too jokey". Not exactly a masterpiece of a case, but since you already had your sights set on Nolder, I guess you didn't need to go into depth.

 

Not a case.  A point.  This doesn't state or imply that I want to lynch Len, only that I think his behavior is going to cost him his life and would be at the time if town didn't have more pressing matters.

 

Btw Lily just put Nol at L-1. That was not a hammer. Badly scummy.

 

Since when is putting someone at L-1 for pressure scummy? Scummy is the guy that hammers before the votee has a chance to defend.

 

How about someone who claims its a hammer, states that they never wanted to vote the person, and then promptly "leaves"?  At what point do you want to count those actions as scummy?

 

 

Salutations!

 

Perhaps those in gold are confirmed.

 

This last post is the one that pinged me hard enough to go back and look over all of Darthe's activity. Confirmed...what? Town? Scum? I highly doubt that out of 5 dead there are only 2 town. I also find it unlikely that gold, which we know means "truth" would be applied to the scum team. In my opinion , the most logical reason for the gold names would be to indicate that they have said something which is true. Unfortunately, I do not have time to go through the thread and look for it tonight. So, I will simply

 

VOTE DARTHE

 

You didn't really think this through did you?  Confirmed means confirmed town btw and I didn't state ANY of the things that you assume for me here to fit your own bias.  Your assumptions in order: That I implied that we have confirmed scum.  That I said that those two were the only dead town.  That I am applying the "truth" to the scum team.  None of this was even remotely hinted at by me.  In reality what I said was exactly what I meant.  I think this confirms the two people that are golded as town.  How do you know that I meant as town?  Because thats what confirmed means.  Nobody ever talks about confirmed scum by just stating confirmed.  That is always spelled out, the same way that if you order a meal at mcdonalds and dont give a size or drink they automatically know that you want regular with coke. Now, if we do get into the implications of my post, I am theorizing that our mod is going to slowly, perhaps randomly, confirm townies throughout the game.  Dead or alive, Idk. Thats part of being in a bastard game. The idea of it confirming the individuals as ones who spoke truth is both stupid and unhelpful.  What does that even mean?  They were mostly honest?  Had something right once?  Share some connection that we are supposed to decipher? I can't figure out that line of reasoning because I don't know anything besides what we see in gold and my role PM.  To imply more is to subjugate yourself to logical fallacy by fitting my statements into your schemas.

 

 

Okay, done with this for now adn goodnight to you all.  Really kind of want to kill this guy for the sheer annoyance and that last paragraph I responded to, but thats irresponsible.  

 

Vote Lily 

[WWWwombat]

Oh wow. Thanks for the case on Lily, Darthe. Been playing on my phone today and I didn't realize how much scum rhetoric she has been using. I read that case of hers that you quoted and called terrible and I was like "who wrote this and why am I not voting him/her?"

[hazelkrs1]

Also read Darthe's case on Lily, its a good case. His defense is kinda meh, but I think that's partially because of his own arrogance (not an insult btw, I think as town you tend to think of having to defend yourself as somewhat beneath you)

 

For a nice placeholder vote I will vote Lily before I start my reread. Still think Mish is scum tho, and still think my plan is a good one.

[csarmi]

Also read Darthe's case on Lily, its a good case. His defense is kinda meh, but I think that's partially because of his own arrogance (not an insult btw, I think as town you tend to think of having to defend yourself as somewhat beneath you)

 

For a nice placeholder vote I will vote Lily before I start my reread. Still think Mish is scum tho, and still think my plan is a good one.

Underline by me. I'd just like to note that's exactly the right town attitude to have. Offense.

[csarmi]

Not a clue where my underlines went. But the post

ShoulD be clear.

[aemonkristen]

Hahaha. I do bring out those feelings in people. I'll just respond to that last bit since I'm on my phone right now. What I meant is that Verb said "truth is golden". I do not see how the word "truth" can be applied to an alignment. That is the fallacy of your logic. Also the fact that only two players of the five dead have their name in gold. Could Verb be randomly revealing dead townies? As you said. This is a bastard game, so anything is possible. However, it seems much more likely to me that each of these "golden" players stated something that was true and relevant to the game. I plan on going through their posts tomorrow to see if they made any accusations and then case those people (if there are any) to see what shakes loose. I do not buy the premise that the gold identifies townies because it would be just as easy to make a scum golden after death for having stated a true and relevant facet of the game. Your automatic assumption that they are townies because of the color seems a bit narrow minded when dealing with a bastard game. Verbal is devious and would love nothing more than to see us haring off down one path without ever looking to the sides.