August 9, 2013: CONCLUDED

[Pralaya]

].

 

What's the case on Peace?  I'm trying to get caught up from the weekend and don't have any obv scum in this thread that I can recall.

 

Peace fake coped naming Serra as scum and pulled out at the last moment admitting that he faked and was trying to bait Serra. '

Some are of the opinion that it is a gambit pulled by him to throw off any doubts.

[Pralaya]

From here: http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/83504-november-1-2001-day-2/?p=2981410

[WWWwombat]

Day 2 Final Vote Count

Peace (10/10): Hally, Len, BG, Dap, Tina, Cloud, Serra, Tiink, Des, Pralaya
Ishy (1/10):Verb
Chuckles (2/10): Razen, Nol
Serra (1/10): Peace

Not Voting (5/19):
Chuckles, Krak, Ree, Ishy, Yates

 

 

LMK if I messed it up.  Scene when Darthe gets on.

[Yates]

Peace fake coped naming Serra as scum and pulled out at the last moment admitting that he faked and was trying to bait Serra.

Oh right. That's why I was reading Peace [and Serra] Town in this thread.

[_CLOUD]

honestly i dont want to waste a day on people going back and forth cuz of me, im town cop 

 

and is lily in the game?!!

 

id go with krak tbh, 

 

*facepalm*

 

Ffs man.. Why did you claim now without any kind of pressure?! Peace had the most votes on him and the only thing that you did with this move is most likely getting yourself killed tonight.

 

 

 

honestly i dont want to waste a day on people going back and forth cuz of me, im town cop

... I feel like I've heard this all before.  Investigation results?  Breadcrumbs?  Why now with zero pressure?  The usual...

 

 

Yeah it really made no sense for him to claim Cop then, but I will just trust Chuckles on this. I always get a scum read on Chuckles, and I don't want to risk lynching a Cop because of the way he plays.

 

 

Why wouldn't the doc save from two kills? Doesn't a doc's protection usually mean they're safe from all regular kills (barring things like strongarms?)

 

In my experience the Doc only protects their target against one kill so I think that Chuckles is way less invincible as he likes to believe he is.

 

 

3 things:

 

1. I am again posting even though I probably shouldn't. It's 4am here, and checking how this thread is going is literally the last thing I'm doing before passing out. This is not me lurking, this is me having busy weekends... Surely, if I actually was following the thread, the most opportune time to vote peace, if I were scum trying to get him lynched, would have been DIRECTLY after he pulled the brake line.

 

2. I, too, would expect a Doc protection to only prevent a single kill. If this is different here, that'd actually quite surprise me. @mod: if a doctor role exists in this game, does it protect from multiple kills?

 

3. I believe chuckles' cop claim. There's should be now way in heck we're lynching him today. Yates is good for his unvote and further explanation. Nolder is less so. Even though I know no one will listen to my suggested play, my suggestion would be to ask the bullet-proof townie in this thread to claim, which would pretty much confirm that all 3 threads have the same PR's, meaning we can keep chuckles alive. Before anyone complains about me role-fishing: I suggest outing probably the weakest PR we have in this thread to stop people from lynching the cop, who may be our only hope of winning this, as well as giving us valuable information for the town-games in the other threads. If there actually is a bullet-proof townie in this thread and the two others, I would actually also consider the possibility that the game could be solved by a game-wide mass claim.

 

I will actually read the other threads tomorrow (probably morning)...

 

I actually really like this idea from Serra and after reading the last few pages I have a town read on him. 

 

 

I'm confused nolder, your saying that you'd rather lynch off an UN CC cop and have me reveal the 1 townie who will be the main focus of NK's come night, its as far as I can see a lose lose sitution for town

 

You need to get those results out there! It doesnt matter if the scum team is going to go after confirmed townies after you die, because it will be way worse if we waste our lynches on them! We can figure out a lot more with your info.

 

 

I prefer lynching serra

 

vote serra

 

And we still have time, if everyone moves trains (ill be here till the DL, ill check in as often as I can)

 

Umm.. no. Peace is the way to go.

 

 

 

Scum reads in order: 

 

Peace 

Despo

Hallia

Ishy

[_CLOUD]

Damn it's so warm outside... I will get back to this game in the evening when it's a little cooler and I can actually figure things out.

[bgrishinko]

Yates, I like your theory about why Chuckles might have done it, but I would have simply waited until tomorrow to say so if you had suspected it. If Chuckles was laying a trap, you might have blown it. In any case, I'm pretty sure Chuckles isn't telling the truth whether for good or bad, I'm uncertain.

 

If Chuckles is scum then his motivations are to out the real cop, which follows the gameplan of Peace trying to out the cop via his play, and, heck, even works together with Serra's plan of having all power roles step forward.

 

All 3 people of are just all sorts of anti-town in their play (unless chuckles is real, then its just a dumb play).

[_CLOUD]

 

 

Right, asking me who I viewed isn't fishing at all

It's not.  At ALL.  If you are telling the truth, you're likely going to be targeted by both scum AND 3rd party - which would leave your claimed "innocent" out there safe until your role is confirmed one way or another.  Doc [if exists] isn't going to save you from 2 attacks, bud.  You should have thought your claim out more fully.

 

and then after that, what your telling me is to tell you who i viewed and paint a big target on their back, after i flip 

 

 

Let me ask you this, Chuckles, how do you plan on proving your role?  Also, how would we know any future results are legit?

if i get a guilty result, we lynch the person, and there we have it, according to how i accurate the flip is to my results, but you already know all that, i just cant fathom why you asked me this question 

 

 

And not to mention that Chuckles needs to reveal his reads so we can know for sure that he isn't lying. 

 

To the bolded: and what if you never catch a scum? If you are fake claiming Cop then this would be awfully convenient for you.

[Darthe]

@mod: if a doctor role exists in this game, does it protect from multiple kills?

 

 

Hypothetically?  No.

[Yates]

1. Yates, I like your theory about why Chuckles might have done it, but I would have simply waited until tomorrow to say so if you had suspected it.

 

2. If Chuckles is scum then his motivations are to out the real cop, which follows the gameplan of Peace trying to out the cop via his play, and, heck, even works together with Serra's plan of having all power roles step forward.

To address point 2 first, I guess we're about to find out.

 

In regards to point 1, I thought about that [since I don't buy his claim either]. But there's no guarantee I'll be alive tomorrow, right? So ultimately I figured it's better to put that out there and introduce some wifom of my own since we already have a cop claim in the thread along with a potential cop counter claim.

[Darthe]

      Jannessee Linneaux sat at a library computer Binging about a recent string of deaths.  They all seemed connected to her, had since her youth when she heard of the first one.  The lines of script had gotten dull to her an hour ago, but she had to know.  Jannessee never let go when the bit was in her mouth.  

      Suddenly she jumped up!  The dates, she had it.  She had a result.  With a little squeak she announced it to the library, far too loudly.  

      Angry eyes stared back.  Google users.  The librarian stomped over at her.  Shiiiii-

      In her desperation she announced it again.  A man on the left put down his book, KJE.  The librarian grabbed her by the arm and with a whispered spite drug her out of the library.  

      When she was pushed out into the street a truck hit her.

 

 

Peace - Aka Jannessee Linneaux Town Vanilla has died.  

[Darthe]

It is now Night.  You have 24 hours.

[bgrishinko]

Welp, darn. Still a bad play on Peace's part. Hopefully, tomorrow will be more insightful.

 

For what its worth, I want to get this out now:

 

My mafia reads are: Serra and Prayala

 

My town reads are Despo, Verbal, and Chuckles.

[Verbal32]

 

 

honestly i dont want to waste a day on people going back and forth cuz of me, im town cop

... I feel like I've heard this all before.  Investigation results?  Breadcrumbs?  Why now with zero pressure?  The usual...

 

 

how about the bolded for the why now question 

 

and stop fishing 

 

 

I know it's been said....but this isn't fishing.  Fishing is what you could say serra did (more on that).

 

 

 

Yates, what do you think of the notion that all the threads have the same set of roles? If that is true, the game is basically open w.r.t. the flips we've had in the other 2 threads, so there's no need to lynch un-cc'ed claims.

 

100% agreement

 

 

 

 

 

 

No idea. Maybe if Darthe hadn't had to edit Lily out of the playerlist nearly a week after she'd been replaced he would have had time to do a votecount for us.

 

Do you want a vote count post restriction?

 

You may as well modkill me then, I'm not doing your guys job for you.

Ladies...ladies... you are both pretty, ok? 

 

 

Both seems to have sticks up their butts recently, dunno.  ;-)

 

 

 

Alright so one day.

 

Ehhh, not a lot of time to decide things.

We aren't guaranteed a doctor (or a cop for that matter).

I think it's best to just off lolguy and take our chances.

If he outs his innocent and he wasn't lying and IF we have a doctor they can protect the innocent tonight.

Not a bad deal all things considered. Lotta if's obviously but I don't trust lolguy at all and he hasn't said anything since I unvoted to make me think it'd be worth keeping him around.

 

Dude........bad idea.  Like, really bad.  I'm surprised you'd even suggest it.

 

 

 

So while I don't completely believe Chuckle's Cop claim, I also saw him do some pretty good Cop work in another game, and moreover I'm surprised at the moves of those pushing him.

 

Voting an unCC'ed cop is a bit harsh imo, considering that town is already at a fairly big disadvantage, and there really isn't a wealth of evidence against him. Don't get me wrong, I had a scum read on him too, but he always looks scummy to me.

 

Pushing him to reveal his innocent viewing is much worse however. Basically doesn't help town at all. If Chuckles is fake claiming, then there would be inherent wifom with whoever he named, even if we got his alignment before lynching his "viewing". If he IS the cop, then we get a confirmed townie... for like one more day. Pushing for the reveal at this stage is dumb.

 

Speaking of pushing for reveals however, we have this doozy:

 

3 things:

 

1. I am again posting even though I probably shouldn't. It's 4am here, and checking how this thread is going is literally the last thing I'm doing before passing out. This is not me lurking, this is me having busy weekends... Surely, if I actually was following the thread, the most opportune time to vote peace, if I were scum trying to get him lynched, would have been DIRECTLY after he pulled the brake line.

 

2. I, too, would expect a Doc protection to only prevent a single kill. If this is different here, that'd actually quite surprise me. @mod: if a doctor role exists in this game, does it protect from multiple kills?

 

3. I believe chuckles' cop claim. There's should be now way in heck we're lynching him today. Yates is good for his unvote and further explanation. Nolder is less so. Even though I know no one will listen to my suggested play, my suggestion would be to ask the bullet-proof townie in this thread to claim, which would pretty much confirm that all 3 threads have the same PR's, meaning we can keep chuckles alive. Before anyone complains about me role-fishing: I suggest outing probably the weakest PR we have in this thread to stop people from lynching the cop, who may be our only hope of winning this, as well as giving us valuable information for the town-games in the other threads. If there actually is a bullet-proof townie in this thread and the two others, I would actually also consider the possibility that the game could be solved by a game-wide mass claim.

 

I will actually read the other threads tomorrow (probably morning)...

 

Holy scum slip Batman! Dude's actually trying to get our BPV to out him/herself! Dude, you are DEF scum now in my book.

 

I agree that BPV's aren't very strong for a PR, but asking them to out themselves removes ANY actual utility they have in the first place. The whole purpose of a BPV is to try and draw the NK to make mafia waste a NK. Outing them essentially turns them into a vanilla.

 

And seeing two different Vengeful Killers lynched in the same day (as well as two vigs die in two separate threads) is plenty enough proof to make it seem like all three threads might have the same or similar roles imo. Outing a town PR just to solidify this concept is just silly.

 

And the cross-game mass claim is also pretty scummy imo too. Would cause a lot of initial confusion, that the mafia can use to their advantage, and considering the multiple killing elements in pretty much every thread, you'd start seeing town PR's drop like flies.

 

Yeah....

 

 

VOTE SERRA YALL.

 

I disgaree with pretty much everything here you've said, Des.  You think that is an actual scum slip?  C'mon.  Even if he's scum, this isn't a slip.  Logically, it makes sense.  It allows us to believe a Cop claim without a counterclaim, and it allows us to know there is a Doc protecting him.  Is this helpful information for scum?  Yes.  HOWEVER, it is helpful to the town, and I think moreso than scum.

 

As for the part of your post I bolded and made larger font (re: removes actual utility), this is simply not true.  Knowing that person will allow us to not lynch them, and keep them until endgame.  If the Doc can stay alive that long as well, we essentially have 2 unkillable townies for a full phase.  At endgame, that's all you need.  Scum would have to essentially waste a NK to remove the vest (as you mentioned, so you've thought about this), and deal with the WIFOM of shooting into potential Doc protection anyway.  Huge benefit for town in that instance, as you can see.  Making scum waste shots is awesome.  Having 2 confirmed and practically unkillable townies at endgame is a huge benefit to town.

 

I'm surprised you aren't considering all angles before firing from the hip and declaring something bad.

[Nolder]

I´m not sure what to think about Chuckles. First it looked like Peace tried to out the cop and when that didn´t go well Chuckles reveals cop with almost no pressure. Having said that, why vote for a uncc´d cop? Not a good idea. 

 

I´m still satisfied with my vote on Peace.

I've been over this already but I'll go over it again.

 

First of all we don't know that he's actually a cop. What cop reveals at L-8?

If we are going to let him live it's because we are going to trust him and his reads.

Did anyone else find him scummy before he revealed? I know I did, obviously, and the reveal didn't change anything.

When he pops up eventually saying X person is guilty...I'm not going to believe it. I'm sorry if you guys think it's dumb not to trust an un-cc'd "cop" but that's exactly what the town in my kingdom hearts game thought and it got them railroaded. I'm not going to lynch or trust anyone on lolguy's word so as a cop he's useless until he died. Since he's scummy I say have him reveal his innocent and lynch him now. If he flips cop hopefully we have a doctor and they protect the innocent so we have someone to lead town tomorrow. That's what I see as the best case scenario.

[Nolder]

So while I don't completely believe Chuckle's Cop claim, I also saw him do some pretty good Cop work in another game, and moreover I'm surprised at the moves of those pushing him.

 

Voting an unCC'ed cop is a bit harsh imo, considering that town is already at a fairly big disadvantage, and there really isn't a wealth of evidence against him. Don't get me wrong, I had a scum read on him too, but he always looks scummy to me.

 

Pushing him to reveal his innocent viewing is much worse however. Basically doesn't help town at all. If Chuckles is fake claiming, then there would be inherent wifom with whoever he named, even if we got his alignment before lynching his "viewing". If he IS the cop, then we get a confirmed townie... for like one more day. Pushing for the reveal at this stage is dumb.

Good cop work is revealing at L-8?

If you had a scum read on him back me up man!

It's possible I'm wrong and he is the cop and he just played bad but you know mafia is going to spin this like I'm scum out to kill the cop or whatever.

If he's scummy then it justifies a lynch. He can claim any role he wants, scum do that to escape being lynched do they not?

 

As for pushing for the reveal. Only if we're lynching him. 

It's a small gamble since, you know, mafia is going to nightkill someone ANYWAY and an innocent we don't know is no use to us.

The gamble is in whether or not there is a doctor and whether or not the named player happens to have a power role.

If they have a power and there's no doctor it's a free kill for the mafia. If there is a doctor we might be sitting pretty tomorrow though.

Also there's the WIFOM for the mafia involved. Do the shoot the named innocent and risk getting blocked or shoot elsewhere?

 

Anyway that's a scenario we could worry about later because if you guys don't lynch him (bad move imo) it's irrelevant and if you do he might still flip mafia.

[Nolder]

I'm confused nolder, your saying that you'd rather lynch off an UN CC cop and have me reveal the 1 townie who will be the main focus of NK's come night, its as far as I can see a lose lose sitution for town

See my responses to Tina and Des.

[Nolder]

I'm not voting Serra.

I'm not voting an unCCed Cop [today].

 

What's the case on Peace?  I'm trying to get caught up from the weekend and don't have any obv scum in this thread that I can recall.

I made a case on Peace a couple pages back. He acted really scummy imo at the beginning of the game and recently where he faked a cop viewing on Serra. However his play in the middle kind of put me off of lynching him. He's more nulltell than anything for me so I don't know. I wouldn't hate to lynch him but I personally would rather give him another day or two and see what happens.

 

Edit: I think most other people are just sheeping for the cop thing. Which makes sense but it could have just been a bad play and I don't think anyone is willing to accept that.

[Nolder]

Day 2 Final Vote Count

 

Peace (10/10): Hally, Len, BG, Dap, Tina, Cloud, Serra, Tiink, Des, Pralaya

Ishy (1/10):Verb

Chuckles (2/10): Razen, Nol

Serra (1/10): Peace

 

Not Voting (5/19):

Chuckles, Krak, Ree, Ishy, Yates

 

 

LMK if I messed it up.  Scene when Darthe gets on.

Oh.....

 

Well ok then.

Eff you guys I'm going to get some breakfast since what I say is completely irrelevant anyway.

[Lenlo]

 

Day 2 Final Vote Count

 

Peace (10/10): Hally, Len, BG, Dap, Tina, Cloud, Serra, Tiink, Des, Pralaya

Ishy (1/10):Verb

Chuckles (2/10): Razen, Nol

Serra (1/10): Peace

 

Not Voting (5/19):

Chuckles, Krak, Ree, Ishy, Yates

 

 

LMK if I messed it up.  Scene when Darthe gets on.

Oh.....

 

Well ok then.

Eff you guys I'm going to get some breakfast since what I say is completely irrelevant anyway.

 

Apparently it is. people shouldnt BS cop like that and expect rainbows and sunshine to come their way.

[Verbal32]

 

I´m not sure what to think about Chuckles. First it looked like Peace tried to out the cop and when that didn´t go well Chuckles reveals cop with almost no pressure. Having said that, why vote for a uncc´d cop? Not a good idea. 

 

I´m still satisfied with my vote on Peace.

I've been over this already but I'll go over it again.

 

First of all we don't know that he's actually a cop. What cop reveals at L-8?

If we are going to let him live it's because we are going to trust him and his reads.

Did anyone else find him scummy before he revealed? I know I did, obviously, and the reveal didn't change anything.

When he pops up eventually saying X person is guilty...I'm not going to believe it. I'm sorry if you guys think it's dumb not to trust an un-cc'd "cop" but that's exactly what the town in my kingdom hearts game thought and it got them railroaded. I'm not going to lynch or trust anyone on lolguy's word so as a cop he's useless until he died. Since he's scummy I say have him reveal his innocent and lynch him now. If he flips cop hopefully we have a doctor and they protect the innocent so we have someone to lead town tomorrow. That's what I see as the best case scenario.

 

 

As the player that fake claimed Cop in your referenced game, allow me to qualify myself as somebody who can speak to this.

 

2 totally different situations.  I was already on the hot seat....like, really hot.  From D2.  There was no way I was escaping a lynch.  And I was waayyyy farther along that L-8.  And we were much farther into the game.  And our whole gameplan revolved around playing risky and throwing ourselves into the town's face.  You can't compare that situation to this one.

 

If he is Cop, did he reveal too early?  Yes, I'd say so (imo).  But you can't automatically assume that means he's fake claiming.  And you can't turn that into an excuse to lay blame at the feet of people playing it 'by the book'.  There is nothing wrong with playing it that way.  That said, I purposely didn't NK townies in your game that play it by the book, because I knew they'd go with me on my claim and subsequent fake guilty on Krak.  But like I said - you can't compare the games.

[serra]

Really, peace?...

 

Desp, please tell me more about that scumslip of mine? How very devious of me to suggest a strategy you disagree with to hurt town...

 

Verbal has been speaking sense, which is a relief, but let me reiterate:

 

Having the BPV claim would not only act as a further proof of principle for equal setups across threads (I don't think we have enough proof for this yet), but I would argue also strengthen the value of the role. A confirmed townie that can't be night-killed (at least not easily) is a ridiculously useful asset for town, and I'm really rather surprised why Desp is arguing against it and even wants me lynched for suggesting it.

[hazelkrs1]

@Verb: I'll give you that, a BPV doesn't remove all their utility necessarily. But still a good chunk of it. Say the mafia end up targeting the BPV without realizing it, and get no kill. They could think it was the BPV, could think their target was being doc protected, or could think they had uncovered the Doc themselves. If they thought the latter, they could end up spending two NK's on essentially a glorified vanilla. Outing the BPV removes this possibility.

 

And yes, I do think it was a kind of scum slip. I think Serra thought he could slip that little suggestion in without catching huge flak for it. And you DON'T need to out the BPV to solidify the belief that there will be a Doc/Cop in the thread imo. Already seen two diff VK's die in diff games, and two diff vigs as well.

 

Cloud def reeks for his backing up that suggestion btw. Then says I'm scum without ever addressing my post against the idea.

 

And yeah, had a feeling Peace would flip scum. He did make a bad play however. And Yates, I do think BG is right- the wifom Chuckles may have been setting up would have been fine on its own. The wifom you introduced also seems like it could have been an attempt to gain town cred, and also weakens Chuckles wifom if that's what his play was.

[hazelkrs1]

Someone claiming BPV wouldn't make them confirmed, and you don't need to out a town role to confirm if every game has the same roles. You can just wait for more flips.

 

Furthermore you're conveniently leaving out the other part of your idea that I fos'd you for - proposing a mass claim across all three threads, just to see town PR's dropping like flies

[Nolder]

Yeah it really made no sense for him to claim Cop then, but I will just trust Chuckles on this. I always get a scum read on Chuckles, and I don't want to risk lynching a Cop because of the way he plays.

Blind trust. Why?

 

 

 

I'm confused nolder, your saying that you'd rather lynch off an UN CC cop and have me reveal the 1 townie who will be the main focus of NK's come night, its as far as I can see a lose lose sitution for town

 

You need to get those results out there! It doesnt matter if the scum team is going to go after confirmed townies after you die, because it will be way worse if we waste our lynches on them! We can figure out a lot more with your info.

What? No no no no. No. That's not how this works.

If you leave him alive he doesn't out his innocent results. Blind trust requires, you know, trust.

Innocent results are on a need to know basis. If lolguy isn't assured death then we don't need to know because the innocents just become targets.

 

FOS