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The Last Battle....Is It Really the End?


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#181 Agitel

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 04:33 AM



Please, correct the above statements. Present is called third age, which began when True Power was first accessed by humanity. AoL is regarded by everyone as second age, supported by the fact that AS make several vague mentions of 'the age before the age of legends' - regarded as the first age.

When was the second age, in your view? More importantly, when did it end? None of the wars mark changeing of the ages.

Or think of it like this. There was the moment of creation, even if it wasn't the begining ( i know..). Then man had to develope, had to gain knowledge, found civilisations etc: Age 1.
The discovery of the ability to channel, along with new powers/ old ones lost (eg viewings, wolf brothers, sniffers) , would have marked the begining of age 2.


This is exactly how I feel too....  we are in the third age - the second age is myth/legend...  and we don't know anything about the first age.

After this breaking - and the suspected cataclysm that will occur at TG, I would expect it to be ruined enough to start another age...  then they would start to forget about the AOL, the Dragon (LTT), and it would be focused on the characters here...


I've taken this view as well by now, though I do think the debate isn't 100% settled, as there's been no definitive statements on the subject that I'm aware. What you're saying is the most likely scenario, though, given everything.

Oh, and we know a lot more about the "First Age" than the people of the books do, considering that our real world right now is in the Age before the Age of Legends. This HAS been confirmed. The emergence of the One Power was one of the factors involved in the transition from the First to the Second. I have my views on how the First Age ended, involving a nuclear war between the USA and Russia/USSR and also involving a war with the newly discovered One Power and even, possibly, the Dark One. The geography of Randland also bears much semblance to the geography of the First Age if you know what to look for. I wrote something up about it on the General WoT board, but no one seemed to care. There were even some similarities I didn't point out that I've noticed since. And I'm talking about VERY specific features, such as the features around Corsica/Sardina and Italy being close to the Mountains of Mist and Garen's Wall, the Urals Mountains (being on the line that involved the Spine of the World), where the Caspian or Aral Sea (or a similar one during the Second Age) stood being the sea Shorelle was on, the Himalayas being the mountain range around The Termool (and southern India being blasted off), the general outline of Southeast Asia and the islands there (if fill in the lands between the islands) and you pretty much have our map of Shara, the remnants of England and Spain being Aile Daishar and Aile Somara, respectively, that Shayol Gul is actually near where Moscow is (and that being an island during the Second Age should be a big enough clue itself), among many others. The Mediterranean got filled in at some point, Africa blasted away (and I can't imagine it's entirely gone, and the islands on the map are far too small to represent all of the Sea Folk, but I could be wrong on that, the one's shown are likely where southern India was anyway). Some of those features fall into place once you get the major ones down. I'm still a little skeptical as to the Mountains of Mist and Garen's Wall, I didn't list things in order of prominence, but it's all there.

#182 aarrowgant

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 10:40 AM

Ag - When you say it HAS been confirmed - do you have a link?  This is news to me... and I have the encyclopedia...

#183 Agitel

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Posted 14 November 2009 - 12:38 AM

Ag - When you say it HAS been confirmed - do you have a link?  This is news to me... and I have the encyclopedia...


Of course.

http://docs.google.c...pjqg_74xw3j58sj

Week 18 Question: Who were the first channelers, and how did they learn? By trial and error? Are there any Ages where channeling does not exist?

Robert Jordan Answers: The first people to discover the ability to channel learned through trial and error, with fairly high casualty rates until they learned enough not to kill themselves accidentally. Their appearance marked the beginning of the previous Age to that of the books, or at least the end of the Age before that one.

Yes, as I have set things up, there are Ages when no one has any idea of how to channel or even that the One Power exists. Our own, for one. (The Wheel of Time turns.)


And

Q:  I was wondering if you could comment on some of the clues that Randland (as we call it) seems to be written as a future Earth.
RJ:  Time is a wheel. If you look in one direction, you are looking at the past. If you just turn around and look in the other direction, you are looking at the future. The books are set in our future and in our past, depending on which way you look.


More specifically (sort of), we have references in the books themselves.

http://www.sevenspok...nology/1st.html

A few are listed here. The references to Mosk and Merk, Queen Elsbet and Anla all come from Thom recounting the oldest tales he knows from "The Age before the Age of Legends". There's also a Mercedes-Benz hood-ornament (or something described very similarly and associated with vanity and comfort or whatever) in the Panarch's Palace in Tanchico. Has Jordan come out and said that our age is the First? Not that I can find right now, but I think it's clear that our Age is two back or four forward depending on which way you go.

I think this raises other interesting points. Rand, Mat and Perrin all bare many similarities to gods in mythological stories of our own time. Perhaps the myths we remember are based on them, eh?  ;)

Which means, maybe this has all happened before, and maybe that this ISN'T the end.

Wow, I managed to bring this back on topic.

On another note, the geography bears many similarities. I've noticed that some of the things I've said are untrue, but I've made some corrections to my topic on the other board if you're interested in a peak.

#184 Worm

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Posted 14 November 2009 - 11:57 AM

This is slightly unrelated but if the wheel of time is a circle that never ends then pretty much every age is the third/fourth age to those living in it. Think about it, at the moment most people have atleast some knowledge about the history of the third age(the age they are in), there are some records and artifacts from the AOL and even some tales from the age before that although they are more myth than anything else.

Now lets skip ahead a bit to the fourth age (assuming the DO hasn't destoyed time by then). At the start most people would consider that the are in the fourth age due to the information left behind from the third age. But as time progresses those few stories from the first age will be forgotten and most people will come to think of the Age of Legends as the first age and what we know as the third age will become another Age of Legends.

By the middle of the fifth age the third age will be no more than myth and the fourth wi1l be the Age of Legends. These are just my musings on how the memories of the ages work and that we should consider that you can't really number the ages accurately because a circle has no beginning or end so we will never think of ourselves in the seventh, or even the fifth, age.

#185 SheaththeSword

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 05:18 AM

I agree with you completely here Worm. People are perpetually in the 3rd/4th age, as memory only streches so far. I believe it was discussed in detail farther up on this thread (but i might be wrong, it may be a different one).

Except, obv., if a fiction writer of your era intuitively discovers the whole turning of the wheel and convinces millions of fans of the fact. Then you might think you are in the first age/ diff age from 3/4 ;)

However, does it not strike ppl as odd that, though we have archaeological evidence etc of millions of years before us, ppl wish to see this called the first age? All of it? Should we not call the earliest known/estimated time on earth (eg after mars and moon formed through crashes with this planet) the first age?

Or perhaps the earliest known life?

Basically, this whole thing is full of holes. Unless we are in the 'first age' that has lasted millions (pos billions) of years, and all the other ages are just a few thousand years long - eg third age approx. 3000 years.

If the spokes mark the boundary between one age and the next, some of them are gonna be REALLY spread out, and some are gonna be SQUEEZED together. ;)

#186 Mr Ares

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 06:25 AM

I disagree that people will always think of themselves as being in the Third Age. Even if everything about the First Age is long forgotten, people could still refer to their own Age as the Fourth because when the Fourth began they still knew of the First-Third. And knowledge needn't be lost on such a precise timescale. The end of the Fourth might still have a few leftovers from the First, then they suffer an utter catastrophe, and when they pick up the pieces, they are in the First Age, by their reckoning.

#187 SheaththeSword

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 06:51 AM

Well third or fourth. Bur the point is that the numbering will never get very far. The pattern is too volatile for it not to inflict catastrophe on ppl often enough that they never 'get to' (in their own minds) the 6th or 7th ages. Prob not even as far as the fifth.

However we do know that prophecies from the fourth age, and clearly named as such, come into existence, and so they do hit some kind of level of prosperity where they are not struggling to keep humanity alive (as is strongly alluded to about the breaking), and also have kept memory of the third age being called such alive.

However, is it not possible that it is only called the third age in the age after TG? It is after all possible as you said that memory of 'an age befor ethe age of legends' could survive into the so-called fourth age. Then they would have a general idea that the earth has gone through at least 4 ages, and smt he fourth age.

I mean, do we ever hear anyone in the books actually call their time the third age? It is said '..called the third age by some, ..', If I Recall Correctly that is the only mention of a name on the currecnt time period.

#188 Dunderdan

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 05:17 AM

Theres a great chance the next age will be regarded as the second age eventually. Because to the future people inhabiting the WoT world, therell be (only) one major event diving time: Tarmon Gaidon. The first Age will be the time before TG and the second (then current) Age will be the time after TG. And the old age numbering becomes myth and then forgotten.


#189 Cherise

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Posted 20 November 2009 - 04:52 AM




Please, correct the above statements. Present is called third age, which began when True Power was first accessed by humanity. AoL is regarded by everyone as second age, supported by the fact that AS make several vague mentions of 'the age before the age of legends' - regarded as the first age.

When was the second age, in your view? More importantly, when did it end? None of the wars mark changeing of the ages.

Or think of it like this. There was the moment of creation, even if it wasn't the begining ( i know..). Then man had to develope, had to gain knowledge, found civilisations etc: Age 1.
The discovery of the ability to channel, along with new powers/ old ones lost (eg viewings, wolf brothers, sniffers) , would have marked the begining of age 2.


This is exactly how I feel too....  we are in the third age - the second age is myth/legend...  and we don't know anything about the first age.

After this breaking - and the suspected cataclysm that will occur at TG, I would expect it to be ruined enough to start another age...  then they would start to forget about the AOL, the Dragon (LTT), and it would be focused on the characters here...


I've taken this view as well by now, though I do think the debate isn't 100% settled, as there's been no definitive statements on the subject that I'm aware. What you're saying is the most likely scenario, though, given everything.

Oh, and we know a lot more about the "First Age" than the people of the books do, considering that our real world right now is in the Age before the Age of Legends. This HAS been confirmed. The emergence of the One Power was one of the factors involved in the transition from the First to the Second. I have my views on how the First Age ended, involving a nuclear war between the USA and Russia/USSR and also involving a war with the newly discovered One Power and even, possibly, the Dark One. The geography of Randland also bears much semblance to the geography of the First Age if you know what to look for. I wrote something up about it on the General WoT board, but no one seemed to care. There were even some similarities I didn't point out that I've noticed since. And I'm talking about VERY specific features, such as the features around Corsica/Sardina and Italy being close to the Mountains of Mist and Garen's Wall, the Urals Mountains (being on the line that involved the Spine of the World), where the Caspian or Aral Sea (or a similar one during the Second Age) stood being the sea Shorelle was on, the Himalayas being the mountain range around The Termool (and southern India being blasted off), the general outline of Southeast Asia and the islands there (if fill in the lands between the islands) and you pretty much have our map of Shara, the remnants of England and Spain being Aile Daishar and Aile Somara, respectively, that Shayol Gul is actually near where Moscow is (and that being an island during the Second Age should be a big enough clue itself), among many others. The Mediterranean got filled in at some point, Africa blasted away (and I can't imagine it's entirely gone, and the islands on the map are far too small to represent all of the Sea Folk, but I could be wrong on that, the one's shown are likely where southern India was anyway). Some of those features fall into place once you get the major ones down. I'm still a little skeptical as to the Mountains of Mist and Garen's Wall, I didn't list things in order of prominence, but it's all there.


Yeah.

I just occurred to me recently that Tar Valon is probably Avalon...

#190 wingedearth

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 10:54 AM

The Third Age is clearly not the end, as the books have already revealed the existence of the Fourth Age. See, for example, this: http://wot.wikia.com...born/Chapter_56

#191 AoibheannSedai

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 09:32 PM

I would think that we are in the second age.  The first age was prior to Christ (with all the messianic parallels to Rand). 

All the stories that Thom tells from the Age before the AOL (3rd Age) would fit right.

#192 Mr Ares

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 02:39 AM

I would think that we are in the second age.  The first age was prior to Christ (with all the messianic parallels to Rand). 

All the stories that Thom tells from the Age before the AOL (3rd Age) would fit right.

The current Age in the series is the Third. If the AoL is a separate Age, then that would be the second, thus the Age before that would be the First.

#193 Majsju

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 09:27 AM

The Third Age is clearly not the end, as the books have already revealed the existence of the Fourth Age. See, for example, this: http://wot.wikia.com...born/Chapter_56


We kinda knew that even without the 4th Age stories. Can you imagine someone writing an epic like tWoT, only to end with the bad guy winning?

#194 SheaththeSword

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 08:24 AM

Ag - When you say it HAS been confirmed - do you have a link?  This is news to me... and I have the encyclopedia...



Of course.

http://docs.google.c...pjqg_74xw3j58sj

Week 18 Question: Who were the first channelers, and how did they learn? By trial and error?
Are there any Ages where channeling does not exist?

Robert Jordan Answers: The first people to discover the ability to channel learned through trial and error, with fairly high casualty rates until they learned enough not to kill themselves accidentally. Their appearance marked the beginning of the previous Age to that of the books, or at least the end of the Age before that one.

[glow=red,2,300]Yes, as I have set things up, there are Ages when no one has any idea of how to channel or even that the One Power exists. Our own, for one.[/glow] (The Wheel of Time turns.)


And

Q:  I was wondering if you could comment on some of the clues that Randland (as we call it) seems to be written as a future Earth.
RJ:  Time is a wheel. If you look in one direction, you are looking at the past. If you just turn around and look in the other direction, you are looking at the future. The books are set in our future and in our past, depending on which way you look.


More specifically (sort of), we have references in the books themselves.

http://www.sevenspok...nology/1st.html

A few are listed here. The references to Mosk and Merk, Queen Elsbet and Anla all come from Thom recounting the oldest tales he knows from "The Age before the Age of Legends". There's also a Mercedes-Benz hood-ornament (or something described very similarly and associated with vanity and comfort or whatever) in the Panarch's Palace in Tanchico. Has Jordan come out and said that our age is the First? Not that I can find right now, but I think it's clear that our Age is two back or four forward depending on which way you go.

I think this raises other interesting points. Rand, Mat and Perrin all bare many similarities to gods in mythological stories of our own time. Perhaps the myths we remember are based on them, eh?  ;)
[...]
On another note, the geography bears many similarities.


News to me as well.

None of this confirms our time to be the "first age" from the point of view of the present Wheel of TIme plot. Just an Age "when no one has any idea of how to channel or even that the One Power exists."

We could be two ages before 'the age before the the Age of Legends'. Unlikely. But possible.

#195 Agitel

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 10:28 PM


Ag - When you say it HAS been confirmed - do you have a link?  This is news to me... and I have the encyclopedia...



Of course.

http://docs.google.c...pjqg_74xw3j58sj

Week 18 Question: Who were the first channelers, and how did they learn? By trial and error?
Are there any Ages where channeling does not exist?

Robert Jordan Answers: The first people to discover the ability to channel learned through trial and error, with fairly high casualty rates until they learned enough not to kill themselves accidentally. Their appearance marked the beginning of the previous Age to that of the books, or at least the end of the Age before that one.

[glow=red,2,300]Yes, as I have set things up, there are Ages when no one has any idea of how to channel or even that the One Power exists. Our own, for one.[/glow] (The Wheel of Time turns.)


And

Q:  I was wondering if you could comment on some of the clues that Randland (as we call it) seems to be written as a future Earth.
RJ:  Time is a wheel. If you look in one direction, you are looking at the past. If you just turn around and look in the other direction, you are looking at the future. The books are set in our future and in our past, depending on which way you look.


More specifically (sort of), we have references in the books themselves.

http://www.sevenspok...nology/1st.html

A few are listed here. The references to Mosk and Merk, Queen Elsbet and Anla all come from Thom recounting the oldest tales he knows from "The Age before the Age of Legends". There's also a Mercedes-Benz hood-ornament (or something described very similarly and associated with vanity and comfort or whatever) in the Panarch's Palace in Tanchico. Has Jordan come out and said that our age is the First? Not that I can find right now, but I think it's clear that our Age is two back or four forward depending on which way you go.

I think this raises other interesting points. Rand, Mat and Perrin all bare many similarities to gods in mythological stories of our own time. Perhaps the myths we remember are based on them, eh?  ;)
[...]
On another note, the geography bears many similarities.


News to me as well.

None of this confirms our time to be the "first age" from the point of view of the present Wheel of TIme plot. Just an Age "when no one has any idea of how to channel or even that the One Power exists."

We could be two ages before 'the age before the the Age of Legends'. Unlikely. But possible.


That's true. The only thing to go off of is Thom's comment that the stories of Mosk and Merk, Anla, Alsbet, Lenn, and such come from the Age before the Age of Legends, but given that so much history is lost, that seems like it would be a difficult thing to keep track of.

#196 SheaththeSword

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 03:31 PM

Actually, it would be interesting if anyone out there has a good memory for all of the Legends that Thom tells about the age before AOL, and the artifact(s?) from that time, and if we can make any deductions from those as to whether or not our time is, from Randland perspective, the first age.

For example, the (probable) mercedes hood ornament. Are we told what time that came from? Or the skeletons in that same room?

#197 Dagon Thyne

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 11:48 AM

Personally, I think it is the last battle with TRUE evil.  In other words, the shadow.  There would still be evil men in the world not linked to the shadow.  I think that there will still be war, disease, poverty, ect.  Rand just gets rid of the DO and the forsaken.  There is still bandits, rapists, murderers, and alot of other people who may not stand in the light, but they are not darkfriends either.

#198 wingedearth

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 09:45 AM


Ag - When you say it HAS been confirmed - do you have a link?  This is news to me... and I have the encyclopedia...



Of course.

http://docs.google.c...pjqg_74xw3j58sj

Week 18 Question: Who were the first channelers, and how did they learn? By trial and error?
Are there any Ages where channeling does not exist?

Robert Jordan Answers: The first people to discover the ability to channel learned through trial and error, with fairly high casualty rates until they learned enough not to kill themselves accidentally. Their appearance marked the beginning of the previous Age to that of the books, or at least the end of the Age before that one.

[glow=red,2,300]Yes, as I have set things up, there are Ages when no one has any idea of how to channel or even that the One Power exists. Our own, for one.[/glow] (The Wheel of Time turns.)


And

Q:  I was wondering if you could comment on some of the clues that Randland (as we call it) seems to be written as a future Earth.
RJ:  Time is a wheel. If you look in one direction, you are looking at the past. If you just turn around and look in the other direction, you are looking at the future. The books are set in our future and in our past, depending on which way you look.


More specifically (sort of), we have references in the books themselves.

http://www.sevenspok...nology/1st.html

A few are listed here. The references to Mosk and Merk, Queen Elsbet and Anla all come from Thom recounting the oldest tales he knows from "The Age before the Age of Legends". There's also a Mercedes-Benz hood-ornament (or something described very similarly and associated with vanity and comfort or whatever) in the Panarch's Palace in Tanchico. Has Jordan come out and said that our age is the First? Not that I can find right now, but I think it's clear that our Age is two back or four forward depending on which way you go.

I think this raises other interesting points. Rand, Mat and Perrin all bare many similarities to gods in mythological stories of our own time. Perhaps the myths we remember are based on them, eh?  ;)
[...]
On another note, the geography bears many similarities.


News to me as well.

None of this confirms our time to be the "first age" from the point of view of the present Wheel of TIme plot. Just an Age "when no one has any idea of how to channel or even that the One Power exists."

We could be two ages before 'the age before the the Age of Legends'. Unlikely. But possible.


So why can't people channel in our time. There must be people with the spark who would channel themselves to death. Or maybe these people exist but are rare, so we only hear about them in tabloids. Alternatively, maybe we have the ability to channel, but something is blocking us (maybe the Aelfinn or Eelfinn).

#199 SheaththeSword

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 11:45 AM

I like to think of it as the channeling gets bred out of humanity, as too many abstain or are killed to pass on the ability. But ya, a block from some group, known or unknown, seems just as feasible.

#200 Durinax

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 01:12 PM

I like to of it as the channeling gets bred out of humanity, as too many abstain or are killed to pass on the ability. But ya, a block from some group, known or unknown, seems just as feasible.

well if it is like in the books then it gets bred out of humanity from channellers abstaining from having children, eventually reducing the genes that carry this ability.