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Mat "I am no bloody lord" Cauthon


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#381 LoLPoR

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 09:31 AM

BS could have had mat regress without making him an idiot. The letter was fine in the context of how he spoke to Elayne but the misspelt words and the fact that Mat sounded like an ignorant peasant who barely knew his letters was absurd. I also think that BS was trying to make a point in TGS that as the series progressed Mat had become more and more like a noble. The length to which he went to make that point though was ridiculous. He only needed Thom's comments on Mat's clothing in ToM to do that. Theres a fine line between comedy and absurdity and BS crossed it with his interpretation of Mat. That said Mat is still my favorite character and he did become better in ToM but still not up to par. Oh and Noal, people change as they grow up, that's life. To say Mat didn't change he only grew up implies he got bigger but didn't mature at all throughout the series which makes no sense.

#382 Noal

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 07:06 AM

BS could have had mat regress without making him an idiot. The letter was fine in the context of how he spoke to Elayne but the misspelt words and the fact that Mat sounded like an ignorant peasant who barely knew his letters was absurd. I also think that BS was trying to make a point in TGS that as the series progressed Mat had become more and more like a noble. The length to which he went to make that point though was ridiculous. He only needed Thom's comments on Mat's clothing in ToM to do that. Theres a fine line between comedy and absurdity and BS crossed it with his interpretation of Mat. That said Mat is still my favorite character and he did become better in ToM but still not up to par. Oh and Noal, people change as they grow up, that's life. To say Mat didn't change he only grew up implies he got bigger but didn't mature at all throughout the series which makes no sense.


sorry LoLPoR, I wrote poorly, what I meant to say was Mat couldn't have started to behave differently because now he had memories of so many nobles. Memories from finns couldn't make him someone else.

"Dovie'andi se tovya sagain"

It's time to toss the dice.


“Carai an Caldazar, Carai an Ellisande. Al Ellisande."

For the honor of the Red Eagle, For the honor of the Rose of the Sun. The Rose of the Sun.


#383 Theodril

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 11:59 AM

- We are 3 years removed from the first Trolloc attack on the Two Rivers.
- Mat is ta'veren with huge responsibilities that he is fulfilling very admirably.
- He has faced considerable danger to self.
- He is willing to put himself in danger to save others.
- He is a military commander in truth and not just because of memories. His memories give him the knowledge; but his battles gave him fresh and considerable battle experience.
- He is a leader of soldiers and nobles; and he is a commander with the Last Battle in sight
- He is an honorable man who saves Aes Sedai despite his dislike for their manipulations.
- He has dealt severe blows to the Seanchan in Randland: "Great Escape," "Kidnap of Tuon," "Altara attrition campaign," and "Suldam turned Aes Sedai coup."

As I said earlier, each reader can read and interpret a character or event differently and still enjoy the books. For me, there was a clear and progressive line of character development with Mat in the first 11 books. He was playing on level with an Empress, a Banner-General or even a Captain-General, as well as Aes Sedai. He was growing well into a very fearful role as the military mastermind of his time.

Any person under normal circumstances would mature in 3 years; and Mat (to me) matured considerably by the end of KoD.

Afterwards, the attempt at comedy came at the expense of Mat's maturity. I felt that there was a bump reading Mat in the last two books.

Edited by Theodril, 28 April 2012 - 10:51 AM.

"You trouble me so, Rand al'Thor," she said without a bit of heat. "Light, sometimes I think the Creator made you just to trouble me."

======================================

A lion on the high plains was something very different. Toy was loose on the high plains, now. She felt a chill. What sort of man had she entangled herself with? After all this time, she realized, she had hardly a clue.

#384 LoLPoR

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 08:53 AM

I couldn't agree more Theodril the changes to Mat were detrimental to his character progression he's a prince and Furyk Karede mistook him for one of the great captains in RandLand, the regression was just too over the top.

#385 Konteil

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 10:05 AM

mat has already died and been reborn twice now actually. once with balefire incident as well as when he escaped from the aelfinn and the elffin when hanging from a tree so that about does it for that lol.

as far as mat goes his deevelopment is nothing short of brilliant. He may not be a lord but he treats all those around him as is their due. A lord to him is nothing more than a jumped up farmer and he treats them as such. His is a view based on worth of self and what they are able to bring to the table as a whole.

He has becoem \a very responsible man in the series but he has never lost his sense of self. he is still teh same as he always was. What has made it interesting is the memories thathe now has. make you wonder if other memories in his head helped taht along a bit. after all one life teaches so much...how does the contents of several; lives change one?

#386 mb

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 05:53 PM

Robert Jordan told that Mat was not dead in Rhuidean.
The FAQ site is one place that has the exact quote.
Matthew 28:19-20
I Kings 18:21
Romans 1:16
Philippians 4:6-7

#387 Theodril

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 01:58 PM

Mat was dead twice and the death erased by Balefire: Darkhounds in the Aiel Waste attack; and Caemlyn attack on Rahvin.
"You trouble me so, Rand al'Thor," she said without a bit of heat. "Light, sometimes I think the Creator made you just to trouble me."

======================================

A lion on the high plains was something very different. Toy was loose on the high plains, now. She felt a chill. What sort of man had she entangled herself with? After all this time, she realized, she had hardly a clue.

#388 BenevolentCow

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 06:10 PM

He wasn't dead from the Dakrhounds, but he would of died. If you are counting that as a death then Rand was dead from Fain's dagger till Flinn healed it.

#389 Theodril

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 11:23 AM

He wasn't dead from the Dakrhounds, but he would of died. If you are counting that as a death then Rand was dead from Fain's dagger till Flinn healed it.


It seemed that Moiraine's thoughts on the amount of saliva Mat remembered would mean he was dead. Rand's balefire reduced that amount greatly, resulting in a minor itch that Moiraine healed. I'll have to read the passage (later) to make sure.
"You trouble me so, Rand al'Thor," she said without a bit of heat. "Light, sometimes I think the Creator made you just to trouble me."

======================================

A lion on the high plains was something very different. Toy was loose on the high plains, now. She felt a chill. What sort of man had she entangled herself with? After all this time, she realized, she had hardly a clue.

#390 mb

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 03:11 PM

Here is the page I was referring to::
http://wotfaq.dragonmount.com/node/75

About the Darkhounds, I take Rand balefired sometime before the saliva could kill Mat.
And no one seems to remember Mat dying then.
Matthew 28:19-20
I Kings 18:21
Romans 1:16
Philippians 4:6-7

#391 Theodril

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 06:49 PM

Here is the page I was referring to::
http://wotfaq.dragonmount.com/node/75

About the Darkhounds, I take Rand balefired sometime before the saliva could kill Mat.
And no one seems to remember Mat dying then.


The only witness who would have seen Mat's death was the Darkfriend Shaido Far Dareis Mai (forgot her name). I don't think she would have been forthcoming about seeing Mat die and then come back to life. After all, her allegiance was with the GLotD.
"You trouble me so, Rand al'Thor," she said without a bit of heat. "Light, sometimes I think the Creator made you just to trouble me."

======================================

A lion on the high plains was something very different. Toy was loose on the high plains, now. She felt a chill. What sort of man had she entangled herself with? After all this time, she realized, she had hardly a clue.

#392 BenevolentCow

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 08:38 PM

Moiraine says the amount of saliva -would of- killed him.

"You know, it's funny' how the mind plays tricks. When I was putting everything I had into holding this door,shut, I could have sworn one of them had chewed a hole right through it. I could see its bloody head. And its teeth. Melindhra's spear didn't even faze it."


'When I thought that thing chewed through the door, I thought it slobbered all over my arm, too, and now it bloody itches like fire. Even looks like a burn there."


If it had slavered on him as much as he remembers, he would have been dead before I could reach him.


If Mat had died, he wouldn't be holding the door shut and the Darkhounds would of been in the room. He might of been a dead man walking, but the walking part is the key.

EDIT: I don't know how to put the names in on this board, first 2 are Mat, 3rd is Moiraine. All from Fires of Heaven Chapter 6: Gateways

Edited by BenevolentCow, 10 May 2012 - 08:40 PM.


#393 Theodril

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 08:49 PM

Moiraine says the amount of saliva -would of- killed him.

"You know, it's funny' how the mind plays tricks. When I was putting everything I had into holding this door,shut, I could have sworn one of them had chewed a hole right through it. I could see its bloody head. And its teeth. Melindhra's spear didn't even faze it."


'When I thought that thing chewed through the door, I thought it slobbered all over my arm, too, and now it bloody itches like fire. Even looks like a burn there."


If it had slavered on him as much as he remembers, he would have been dead before I could reach him.


If Mat had died, he wouldn't be holding the door shut and the Darkhounds would of been in the room. He might of been a dead man walking, but the walking part is the key.

EDIT: I don't know how to put the names in on this board, first 2 are Mat, 3rd is Moiraine. All from Fires of Heaven Chapter 6: Gateways


Thanks for the quotes, BC!

I don't see how they refute that Mat was dead. Rand reached the scene after the Darkhound chewed through the door (a gap in the door), Mat was holding it; and it slobbered all over his arm (killing him). Rand balefires the Darkhound (which fulfilled its mission and didn't have to break through the rest of the door after seeing Mat die) and Mat is brought back.

I don't know if my interpretation is right or wrong; but I've always read this instance as one where Rand brought Mat back with balefire.

Edited by Theodril, 12 May 2012 - 05:56 PM.

"You trouble me so, Rand al'Thor," she said without a bit of heat. "Light, sometimes I think the Creator made you just to trouble me."

======================================

A lion on the high plains was something very different. Toy was loose on the high plains, now. She felt a chill. What sort of man had she entangled herself with? After all this time, she realized, she had hardly a clue.

#394 mb

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 02:00 PM

Earlier in the chapter, Moiraine told that the saliva would kill slowly. I doubt instantly regardless of the amount of saliva.
Rand's balefire I still think hit the darkhounds before the saliva would kill.

The Darkfriend was Melindhra.
She might have not recognized death (she might not been able to check heartbeat), but she probably would have recognized signs of unconsciousness.
My guess would be she would have told someone (Mat when they were alone later, Darkfriend companions, Forsaken) if she saw such signs; and that the scene would have been either shown or inferred. Or if the scene was not shown or mentioned, my guess would be that either author would have told if Mat died then.
Matthew 28:19-20
I Kings 18:21
Romans 1:16
Philippians 4:6-7