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"The Path of Daggers"


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#21 Mhoram

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 10:49 PM

What actually happened to Morr?  I mean, I know WHAT happened, but HOW did that happen?  did he get caught with a Spirit based attack, or grazed by something meant to kill him?  My theory is that he was under heavy Compulsion to act as the eyes-on to alert Dashiva when Rand left the throne room, so the attack could just miss - the Forsaken and their agents are under orders not to kill Rand, so I think the assassination attempt was designed to fail, in order to make Rand increasingly paranoid and isolated, and possibly kill some of those he cares about.  When the Compulsion was withdrawn, it wiped his mind.  Or alternatively, he was in on it, and then Dashiva simply wiped his mind to prevent him spilling the beans and to try and break Rand.

#22 Mr Ares

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Posted 23 March 2010 - 03:23 AM

He went insane. It happens to male channelers, sometimes quite abruptly.

#23 Ashaman Kovan

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Posted 28 March 2010 - 07:01 PM

He went insane. It happens to male channelers, sometimes quite abruptly.


I don't think you rubbed that blindingly obvious fact in enough.

#24 Mr Ares

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 12:54 AM

He went insane. It happens to male channelers, sometimes quite abruptly.

I don't think you rubbed that blindingly obvious fact in enough.

He's new. I went easy on him.

#25 Mhoram

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 04:46 AM

Cheers.  >:(  ;)

Is this one of RJ's intuitively obvious things that in fact no such thing?

I'll happily concede that the taint wasting his mind, instantaneously, is a possibility I didn't list.  But if we go back to the text, from A Cup of Sleep:

"He [Rand] seemed to watch Fedwin without blinking.  The boy was sitting on the floor, too, his legs sprawled out.  Tongue caught between his teeth, Fedwin was concentrating on makin a tower out of blocks of wood.  Min swallowed hard.

She could still remember the horror when she realised the boy "guarding" her now had the mind of a small child.  The sadness reminaded, too - Light, he was only a boy! it was not right! - but she hoped Rand still had him shielded.  It had not been easy, talking Fedwin into playing with those wooden blocks instead of pulling stones out of the walls with the Power to make a "big tower to keep you safe in".  And then she had sat guarding him until Rand came.  Oh, Light, she wanted to cry.  For Rand even more than Fedwin
...
[Taim comes in, initial dialogue between him and Rand]
For an instant, his [Taim's] gaze flickered to Fedwin.  For no more than an instant.  "There were... other... casualties?  I will take this one with me, if you wish."
"I told them to stay out of sight," Rand said in a harsh voice.  "And I'll take care of Fedwin.  Fedwin Morr, Taim; not 'this one'."


That's the entirety of the text dealing with what happened to Fedwin.  I see nothing in that that makes it obvious or definite that it was the taint that reduced Fedwin's mind to that of a child.  Ok, so Rand kills him with something in his wine, after Taim offers to do the same, which is the same way Taim deals with those going mad from the taint at the BT.  That certainly suggests that it could be the taint, but doesn't mean that this is definitely what happened - the parallel could be drawn with the Aiel putting their severely wounded out of their misery in the aftermath of the battle of Cairhein.

On the other hand, Taim suggests that Morr is a casualty of the attack. 

Maybe there's some reference outside of the text to confirm that it was the taint, in an interview with RJ or something, but I've only read the books themselves.

Not saying I'm right, but I don't think my suggestion was ridiculous either.  Morr's mind could have been damaged in the initial attack, and it only became apparent to Min that it had happened once they reached the dungeon.





#26 Ashaman Kovan

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 11:44 AM


He went insane. It happens to male channelers, sometimes quite abruptly.

I don't think you rubbed that blindingly obvious fact in enough.

He's new. I went easy on him.


I had never been aware that you accepted excuses...O.o

#27 Mr Ares

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 11:59 PM



He went insane. It happens to male channelers, sometimes quite abruptly.

I don't think you rubbed that blindingly obvious fact in enough.

He's new. I went easy on him.

I had never been aware that you accepted excuses...O.o

"I am not without mercy," said he who was notoriously without mercy.

Is this one of RJ's intuitively obvious things that in fact no such thing?

In the sense that RJ credits his readers with not needing every detail spelled out for them? Yes. There's really no indication that it was anything other than an unfortunate young man going mad, another casualty. The quote you give has all the relevant information - he went crazy, Rand euthanised him. There's no need for a more elaborate theory.

#28 Mhoram

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Posted 31 March 2010 - 12:04 AM

That could well apply to half the ideas discussed on this forum, from what I've seen in my short time here!  :D

But from your answer, I take it that you're dismissing the idea without anything but your own opinion as backup.  That's fine, but state it as an opinion rather than saying I've made a ridiculous misreading of the text.

#29 Mr Ares

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Posted 31 March 2010 - 12:21 AM

If I am stating opinion, I will say so.

#30 Ashaman Kovan

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Posted 31 March 2010 - 08:19 PM




He went insane. It happens to male channelers, sometimes quite abruptly.

I don't think you rubbed that blindingly obvious fact in enough.

He's new. I went easy on him.

I had never been aware that you accepted excuses...O.o

"I am not without mercy," said he who was notoriously without mercy.


So then should I take from that that you are without mercy? Or that you occasionally grant some? Until of course they squander it by claiming facts are now somehow your opinion.

#31 Ashaman Kovan

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Posted 31 March 2010 - 08:21 PM

That could well apply to half the ideas discussed on this forum, from what I've seen in my short time here!   :D

But from your answer, I take it that you're dismissing the idea without anything but your own opinion as backup.  That's fine, but state it as an opinion rather than saying I've made a ridiculous misreading of the text.


It's not so much that you've made a ridiculous misreading of the text. More like you've read ridiculously too much into said text.

#32 Mhoram

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Posted 01 April 2010 - 02:44 AM

Yeah, look I've definitely cooled on the more complicated idea that Morr was a DF or involved in setting up the attack on Rand and suffered his fate in the course of that. 

That said, I think it is a reasonable possibility to think about whether he suffered some kind of harm in the attack that damaged his mind - ok, people do go instantly insane sometimes from saidin, but he'd been channelling long enough to become a Dedicated: it seems a bit a of a coincidence that he suddenly snapped at the moment someone directed large scale channelling attacks at the group he was with, including a Forsaken who might know all sorts of nasty attacks that damage the brain.  Not impossible, but a coincidence.  Hence the question.  Maybe the taint got him because he panicked and tried to seize too much saidin (although normally that just burns you out doesn't it), or because fear or stress distracted him from his wrestle with saidin, or somehow else it made him vulnerable, but given Asha'men are forced by Taim to channel as much as possible, it just seemed odd that it was at that precise moment that it happened. 

#33 Ashaman Kovan

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Posted 01 April 2010 - 04:18 PM

Yeah, look I've definitely cooled on the more complicated idea that Morr was a DF or involved in setting up the attack on Rand and suffered his fate in the course of that. 

That said, I think it is a reasonable possibility to think about whether he suffered some kind of harm in the attack that damaged his mind - ok, people do go instantly insane sometimes from saidin, but he'd been channelling long enough to become a Dedicated: it seems a bit a of a coincidence that he suddenly snapped at the moment someone directed large scale channelling attacks at the group he was with, including a Forsaken who might know all sorts of nasty attacks that damage the brain.  Not impossible, but a coincidence.  Hence the question.  Maybe the taint got him because he panicked and tried to seize too much saidin (although normally that just burns you out doesn't it), or because fear or stress distracted him from his wrestle with saidin, or somehow else it made him vulnerable, but given Asha'men are forced by Taim to channel as much as possible, it just seemed odd that it was at that precise moment that it happened. 


You said it yourself. People do go instantly insane from Saidin. It doesn't matter how long they've been channeling. It could happen at any time. Add in the stress of the situation coupled with whatever PTSD he suffered from thanks to Dumais Wells and it's really not that big a surprise. It's a bit of a reach to assume that Dashiva/Osan'Gar knew ANY tricks to "damage the brain". Seeing as how, even up to the current book the only weave we've seen that has any specific effect on the brain is Compulsion.
How many male channelers up to that point had we actually seen go mad? I'm pretty sure not a one. All we'd had were second hand accounts from, I think it was Torval or Rochaid about how the one guy just all of a sudden started screaming about spiders all over his body or some such thing. Most likely the main reason (I'm assuming, but it's a reasonable assumption) that RJ had Morr go mad in what I thought to be a fairly sad way, was to drive home to the readers the urgency of Rand finding a way to cleanse Saidin.

#34 Mhoram

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Posted 01 April 2010 - 07:26 PM

Yeah, I can see that. And it makes sense in terms of the building urgency from TPOD. I can't remember what I thought had happened the first time I read it, but this time on the re-read, I just read it and thought "what did actually happen then?". That'll teach me to try and read the novel at the same time as big chunks of the Theories at the same time - overthinking lots of things now probably!

It's a great scene either way, but it could have perhaps done more clearly pressed home the need to clense saidin by having Rand say something like "the taint will claim us all in the end, Taim" or something.

Edited by Majsju, 15 February 2012 - 04:40 PM.


#35 NoGuessing

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 09:53 PM

Yeah, I can see that. And it makes sense in terms of the building urgency from TPOD. I can't remember what I thought had happened the first time I read it, but this time on the re-read, I just read it and thought "what did actually happen then?". That'll teach me to try and read the novel at the same time as big chunks of the Theories at the same time - overthinking lots of things now probably!

It's a great scene either way, but it could have perhaps done more clearly pressed home the need to clense saidin by having Rand say something like "the taint will claim us all in the end, Taim" or something.

Then Taim says "LOLOLOLOL No Rand, because I gave my soul to Shai'tan so I'm safe bitchez!"

Edited by Majsju, 15 February 2012 - 04:40 PM.


#36 Mhoram

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 05:05 PM

Yeah, that kinda thing.  To my mind, there's not enough internet acronyms in WoT.  "ROFL Sammael - btw catch!", "STFU Egwene".  Crossroads of Twilight could have been re-written to be 100 pages long, "OMG WTF was dat!!!"

#37 NoGuessing

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 06:21 PM

Yeah, that kinda thing.  To my mind, there's not enough internet acronyms in WoT.  "ROFL Sammael - btw catch!", "STFU Egwene".  Crossroads of Twilight could have been re-written to be 100 pages long, "OMG WTF was dat!!!"


lyk t0tally

Actually, STFU should be applied to Elayne and Nynaeve as well.

#38 Jillain Sanche

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 12:54 PM

No.  It was the aftermath of the use of the Bowl of Winds, which is why it got worse the closer they got to Ebou Dar.  The Bowl was designed to be one of several tools regulating world weather, not to change the weather all on its own.  So, when it was used the way Elayne and co used it, it overstressed the Bowl, causing the funky stickiness in saidin (and saidar).


Either that, or its overcoming the DO's influence on the weather was that powerful. And don't forget, though only women were linked to use it, the Bowl itself generated both halves of the One Power, male and female, which had not been expressed--both halves of the OP working together--since the Breaking. [pp.530-532 Rand POV]"saidin itself that seemed full of currents and surges. Eager, Dashiva called it .  .  ."

Not alive but more vital as a result of the use of the Bowl in this (large geographical) area?


#39 Alric

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 12:32 PM

Just finished this one. Some thoughts:

I had not noticed the much discussed "slowdown" as of aCoS, even though many say it starts there. However, on this reread, I notice that something does change in tPoD. In fact aCoS might be one of my absolute favorites on this reread, but I'm quite sure tPoD is going to rank among the lower. It could have been longer and included more which might have made more people happy, but its main problem is the point we're at. RJ decided to give us some depth on the people involved in the plotlines (I don't think he added that many more actually). I don't actually find much of the content boring or unnecessary, usually as I was reading I thought: "most of this is in fact relevant". The problem is just the package as a whole. People had to wait "too long" for too few resolutions and the timeline in the books shortened as well.

If he had made two books instead of three of this middle part of the series, they would individually have included more of the storyline and made people more content, even if the total page count had been the same.



#40 Alric

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 12:59 PM

I'm venturing into unknown territory soon because on my previous (and only) readthrough) I stopped somewhere during book 9 or 10.

Egwene: Yay, one of the few awesome moments in the book when she laid down the Law. And her friendship with Siuan, both funny and so satisfying considering how everyone seems to treat each other at the moment.

Rand: I'm not complaining. He's been through so much and expects it to just get worse (and it probably will). No wonder he acts the way he does. Even though he learned that the Dragon can and will fail sometimes.. he didn't learn what he needs to learn about his own humanity. RJ just rubs it in... "Excpect more crap, readers".

Perrin/Faile: Baby steps toward figuring each other out with the lessons from Elyas, but then the Thing happens at the end which puts it all on hold for years (I honestly don't know how long but I never got to it before).

Seanchan: RJ is basically telling us that these people will never be beat by showing the size and organization of their campaign. Knowing that annoys me to no end, because they and everything they stand for is so messed up and _wrong_. The captured damane killing nine people after practically being freed from abuse/torture/brainwashing... disturbing and sad.

Min: More important than people might think. She holds Rand together. She had to watch Morr instead of him watching her. That part worked really well and tells you something about her character. Watching Rand do what was necessary to Morr from her perspective was a great choice by RJ and really powerful.

Siuan: Everyone should have a best friend like her. She and Min are not celebrated enough for their loyalty and support. And she's funny, both intentionally and unintentionally. Her bonding moment with Egwene before the meeting with the Hall was really refreshing in the middle of all that crap. Not that she's just that a supporting character, she's probably one of the brightest minds in the series and despite all her ongoing humiliations she is literally getting some much deserved love.

Bashere and Bryne: The most sensible persons in the series. Rand and Egwene are lucky to have them.

Black Ajah hunters: I remember loving this part the last time I read it even though I couldn't recall any details. Even though it was just a few pages, its one of the best parts of this book.

Morgase: Crap. I mean, after being raped both physically and mentally by Rahvin who also destroyed every alliance she had worked to build, barely escaping into Whitecloak captivity, where she was raped _again_ and then tortured, and almost jumping from a building to end her misery... she finally escapes being killed and robbed and having her ears cut off by bandits to end up as a servant for Faile. RJ went all out to make this woman suffer. And if being a servant wasn't bad enough, she is now captured by the Shaido. Seriously RJ? This is beyond cruel.

Elayne/Nynaeve/Aviendha: Meh. I feel that their characters are just put on hold for this book even though they take up a significant number of pages. Not much development even though lots of stuff is happening.

Sworn Aes Sedai: I just have the feeling this stuff will blow up, badly. No matter what some of them did to Rand or Egwene, it just doesn't feel right to have them in the position they are. I know Min said that the Tower Aes Sedai would serve Rand, but these were the ones that Verin went all creepy with using Compulsion, wasn't it? It just can't end well....



Side note: Is it just me or is RJ making the series a lot saucier in this book? Min is horny, Nyn and Lan are sneaking away to shag so often that Elayne is annoyed, the Wise Ones are implying that Seonid is a lesbian, Tower Aes Sedai are (wrongly) suggesting that Seaine and Pevara are pillowfriends, Rand runs into Ailil and Shalon (yet no hint about what is happening), Logain bonds(?) Toveine with a kiss and a trick of the Power that is described like her having an orgasm. Aaaaand, there is Elayne's hilarious and infamous ter'angreal incident. It might just be me, but I couldn't help noticing these things to a much larger degree than in earlier books.... 

Edited by Alric, 11 February 2012 - 01:24 PM.