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Egwene al'Vere: Jumped Up Inkeeper's Daughter


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#401 Damer Sedai

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 09:12 AM

I agree with Suttree - that drive isn't a bug, its a feature.
"Duty. Death is lighter than a feather, duty heavier than a mountain. That's what they say in Shienar. 'The Dark One is stirring. The Last Battle is coming. And the Dragon Reborn has to face the Dark One in the Last Battle, or the Shadow will cover everything. The Wheel of Time broken. Every Age remade in the Dark One's image.' There's only me. I have the duty, because there isn't anybody else, now is there?" Rand, speaking to Perrin, TDR

#402 GregerMoek

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 06:03 PM

I don't really know what I think about Egwene, she's certainly not the person I hate most and I don't like her the most either.

In the first book she's important because she's what drives Rand to start progressing. While she does not provide much in terms of usefulness except learning how to make a fire for herself with the power, she makes Rand curious about listening in to talks about the powers, she constantly gets in trouble and Rand knows this so he is determined to protect her. Now I just started a re-read and am currently discussing with myself the very last section of The Eye of the World, so I haven't actually gone much further than that to fully remember, but don't we start seeing her own progression from her point of view first when she meets Elayne in the White Tower? Perrin was always more important to portray when they were separated from the other group right before Caemlyn, she was the girl the boys had to "whiteknight" and protect untill she starts her training for real (and the hunt for Black Ajah). As someone said her major character trait is to simply want to learn things, whether it be culture or abilities such as dreamwalking, which doesn't really seem to fade untill the whole Amyrlin business and she's semi-officially done with her training. This all makes sense to a degree and I'm not too bothered with it either if I should be honest. She's really not a mega-part of the plot between not being love interest for Rand and up untill she starts with her Amyrlin training, she is simply a character that introduces the reader to Aiel ways, T'A'R and what it's like to learn the one power as a female(Nyn has her block and can't introduce the reader to this fully yet, Rand is a male).
I guess that's mostly why people don't like her, Egwene doesn't develop a whole lot in character, but I'm grateful that she was something that showed me these things so I didn't have to wait for Nyn to get her block away or for Elayne to start becoming one of the often-returning main point-of-views in the series. Sure things HAD been shown from her perspective at times but she's often not the highest priority for that untill later when she starts playing a bigger role (post-Salidar IIRC). I can accept that role for Egwene and because how little she changes despite her world chaning it's also easy to follow all the new explorations to be made.

While I like her more than Elayne in the latter books (11-13) because I agree with her ways of ruling more than Elayne (I know, it's silly), I suppose that also is because the whole progression from "captivity" is simply a thing I enjoy to read. Even if the comparison might not be fair, I'll bring it up anyways. In another series, Sword of Truth, which I don't like as much as WoT FYI (it does not have Mat or Nyn) the main character also gets stripped of his grandiose titles and gets to live as one of the "lowest" and slowly starts to build his own rebellion in order to deal with the surrounding tyrrany. The main difference between their situations is that everyone knows who Egwene is in the White Tower but in the Sword of Truth book they don't know shit about the Main Character (except for his captor). Reason I bring this up is because story-lines like these are often very enjoyable to read. Someone who you know is powerful but has to work themselves up from the bottom and eventually they go OP-mode and overthrow the big pain-in-the-backside that annoys you most (Elaida in Egwene's case).
Egwene's plot started to bore me more after she finally reunited the tower and the progression wasn't there any longer.
I also think Gawyn helped me not hate Egwene as much too, because things from his POV were more annoying, I think he was even more of a dull, arrogant noble swordsman who was more than simply dense, moreover his complete, and instant, flip from "I don't know what orders mean" to "Oh, I understand everything now!" was simply easier to hate than Egwene's firm hold of the post-split tower.
Main point - I never found Egwene annoying because there was always something more annoying going on at the same time. I actually enjoyed reading the parts where she has passages of progression (training in T'A'R, with the power, Wise Ones, Captive as a Novice...).

I guess this might mean that she's a dull character, since her persona does not change a whole lot, mainly her current tunnel-visionish approach to whatever she was doing and the progress in that field. But I think she's a good character for what she provides, which mainly is knowledge about the WoT universe that Rand can't or won't explore.

Edited by GregerMoek, 11 October 2012 - 06:05 PM.


#403 Theodril

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:39 PM

The thing with Egwene is that she takes her motivation to learn into overdrive, at the expense of some morality. Although she paid for her toh to Amys and the Wise Ones for lying about Aes Sedai and entering TAR, she still lied for months. And in a context where only a Darkfriend breaks a verbal oath, lying for months is as big as it gets.

And we also have multiple assessments from Nynaeve, Rand, Perrin, and others about Egwene's "wholeheartedness" plunge in anything she does. Occasionally that portrays her as a flippant character; but more often it gives her considerable flexibility in adopting to different situations.

One of Egwene's most consistent traits that is often ignored is how often she puts Rand first and ahead of herself and her affiliations. She put him ahead of the WT as a novice and accepted, and she continued to be motivated by helping him succeed even as Amyrlin of a rebel faction and of a united WT.
"You trouble me so, Rand al'Thor," she said without a bit of heat. "Light, sometimes I think the Creator made you just to trouble me."

======================================

A lion on the high plains was something very different. Toy was loose on the high plains, now. She felt a chill. What sort of man had she entangled herself with? After all this time, she realized, she had hardly a clue.

#404 SirKlee

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 02:31 AM

I have to admit I've allways been unfair in my assesment of egwene. This is partly due to the underlying similarity between the main female chars. So I started to mash their flaws together, but after rereading the series I have to say that if you take away Jordans "intressting" views on women, one can find a liking in her char. Especially in the later books she becomes interessting, and the first chapter of aMoL explains and softens one of her biggest mistakes.

Honestly I think it's nessecary to be a jumped up egotist to make it as head of all the other jumped up egotists with their godcomplex.

I 'm not saying I agree with most of her actions, just saying that while she might be no "selfreflecting altruistic" ninive she is neither a powercrazed inconciderate, thoughtless piece of ..... princess.

All in all it's hard to really like Jordans female chars, but at least I don't want to rip up the book when I read her passages...

sorry for my spelling i'm german

Edited by SirKlee, 19 October 2012 - 02:31 AM.


#405 GregerMoek

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 11:34 AM

Well, one could say that her progress in AS politics was a bit rushed but The Last battle was coming and I'm sure they couldn't expand the books to let her get more room for a more "reasonable", if we wanna call it that, time before true Amyrlin, not to mention that her Gawyn-relation feels very forced compared to many other relations in the series.

I think she provides something while not being my favourite character still, I prefer Mat and Nyn as I guess the stereotype WoT-fan does(I honestly don't know) but that's mainly because they are so ridiculous at times, Egwene is never really extreme except for her AS-politics success.

#406 Theodril

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 10:17 PM

I think she provides something while not being my favourite character still, I prefer Mat and Nyn as I guess the stereotype WoT-fan does(I honestly don't know) but that's mainly because they are so ridiculous at times, Egwene is never really extreme except for her AS-politics success.


And that success, in the most part, is due to Siuan Sanche's advice and tutoring. Without Siuan, Egwene would still be twaddling in Salidar.
"You trouble me so, Rand al'Thor," she said without a bit of heat. "Light, sometimes I think the Creator made you just to trouble me."

======================================

A lion on the high plains was something very different. Toy was loose on the high plains, now. She felt a chill. What sort of man had she entangled herself with? After all this time, she realized, she had hardly a clue.

#407 TNine

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 04:33 PM

Egwene has wanted to be Aes Sedai since the beginning of book one. She had other interests too, and she delayed her training as Aes Sedai in order to learn dreamwalking from the wise ones, but that was always her final goal.

She's a cultural chameleon, definitely--she quickly internalizes different value systems and understands different perspectives much more than other characters, imo. Her character development is largely experiencing a wide variety of situations and cultures--she's the mayor's daughter, wisdom-in-training, novice, damane, accepted, apprentice, Amyrlin. All of these play a role in her usurping Elaida, i think.

Ultimately, she becomes somewhat of an embodiment of the Aes Sedai, so if you don't like Aes Sedai you aren't going to like her. Personally, i feel the main flaws that the Aes Sedai fall into--working solely to establish dominance, letting politics cloud judgement, believing you always know better, and preferring feigned knowledge to learning--are mostly reduced in Egwene. She is (more) willing to look at how she may be wrong. She utilizes good council. While she works to consolidate power, she often prefers to force necessary action that simply try to stop her political "enemies". She freely admits that the Aes Sedai will no longer be able to dominate the world, and instead of trying to subjugate the Aiel or Windfinders she opens up favorable relations.

Of course, Egwene still has her flaws. Failings in communication and arrogance are a part of it--but this is hardly unique to Egwene. It's easier to make a list of characters who don't exhibit these traits, which as far as i can tell is none of the main cast (even Perrin keeps unnecessary secrets), no channelers, and perhaps a few side characters. I think Egwene is much more willing to admit fault than most of the cast, and at least her secret-keeping has a purpose--it allows her to maintain her edge as Amyrlin. She has the habit of throwing herself into something 110%, and often functions on ideals more than pragmatics. A lot of her success was obviously twists of the pattern making her lucky. She keeps her incredible fear of the Seachan, which will indubitably cause problems in the future, and is sometimes too willing to change her perspective and sometimes too unwilling--she cant change her opinion of Mat and thinks Rand's assumption of responsibility is arrogance, and then later is willing to consider the fact that Rand may have used compulsion on Aes Sedai.

I suppose her greatest "failing" is her undying faith in the White Tower and Aes Sedai as an institution. And how problematic that is depends on how much you like the Aes Sedai. I don't think the Aes Sedai are amazing, but i have much higher opinion of them than the rest of this board, and i uncoincidentally find Egwene to be one of my favorite characters.

Anyway... CoT could be mostly broken down into a very complicated flowchart and a pamphlet on how to wash silk.


#408 wotfan4472

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:31 PM

I never really liked Egwene until the last books, where she seemed to mostly grow up. The major failing of hers is due to the interaction with the Wise One's whom themselves have failings. I think she needs to meet Cadsuaine, with her particular and ofter abrupt view of the people around her. I also believe that her learning from the Aes Sedai is very heavily hampered by being the only tolerated channelling group for the past 3000 years or so, due to the taint. I also believe that contact with the Aes Sedai with Rand will lessen these failings, otherwise if unchanged they will play into the Dark One's hands; as He has planned.

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#409 Ghost

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 02:57 PM

She has done more in her short time as Amyrlin to change the WT than any other in history. You may have been using hyperbole with the Shara statement but she certainly would not let her values stray that far, if placed in Shara or Seanchan. She would change the system as she is doing now.


Sure she has, all for the purpose of keeping as much political power as possible. She firmly holds the AS view that the WT should have political stewardship of the world. Given the rise of the WOs, the Windfinders, and the BT, this is obviously delusional. A bunch of women in an ivory tower doling out commands to rulers is not balance. How many times in Siuan's and Egwene's chapters do we hear about Egwene being an Amyrlin to make thrones tremble. That's her end goal. She will have to make peace with Logain's leadership, and I believe she will, but her current, unrealistic view of the WT are annoying.

If the AS are to be accorded respect simply for being able to channel, then Egwene should be kissing Rand's feet. Their interactions in ToM are basically akin to Obama ordering Jesus around.

#410 Suttree

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 07:09 PM

Sure she has, all for the purpose of keeping as much political power as possible. She firmly holds the AS view that the WT should have political stewardship of the world. Given the rise of the WOs, the Windfinders, and the BT, this is obviously delusional.


Errmm what? You need to dive back in and start actually basing your views on the text my friend. She has called them fools and vowed they must change. We are hammered over the head with the responsibility she feels in unifying, changing and having the WT whole to serve the world at TG. She literally advocates the exact opposite of what you claim above. Also the channeler exchange program will do more to change AS views than anything they have done in the last 2,000 years. Imagine the good it will do for accepted to get those real world lessons that Cads says "not everyone can learn in the WT". Once they get real life lessons from the other cultures in it will forever change how the WT operates. At the end of the day you can question Egwene putting her faith in the WT as the best institution to lead the light but that is another discussion entirely. What you can not do is question her intentions...

ToM

"Please take care," Egwene said, summoning herself a cup of tea. "I am not only one of those fools, my friend, but I am their leader. Queen of the fools, you might say."

Bair hesitated. "I have toh
."

"Not for speaking the truth," Egwene assured her. "Many of them are fools, but are we not all fools at some point? You did not abandon me to my failures when you found me walking Tel'aran'rhiod
. In like manner, I cannot abandon those of the White Tower."


ToM

"The world as it was cannot be ours any longer," Egwene said softly, not wanting the Wise Ones to overhear. "Was it ever? The Black Tower bonds Aes Sedai, the Aiel no longer revere us, the Windfinders have hidden their best channelers from us for centuries and are becoming increasingly belligerent. If we try to hold too tightly to all of this, we will either become tyrants or fools, depending upon how successful we are. I accept neither title.


It is quite clear she knows the world is changing and she is calling out the WT on how they have operated. I challenge you to provide one passage that supports your interpretation of some secret plot for world domination. She even explicitly states what her goal is and far from personnel power it is....

ToM

Obliquely, she realized what she was doing. She was using Rand's proclamation as a beacon by which to gather and tie the monarchs to the White Tower. They would come to support her arguments against breaking the seals. But in the end, they would serve humankind in the Last Battle.


A bunch of women in an ivory tower doling out commands to rulers is not balance. How many times in Siuan's and Egwene's chapters do we hear about Egwene being an Amyrlin to make thrones tremble. That's her end goal. She will have to make peace with Logain's leadership, and I believe she will, but her current, unrealistic view of the WT are annoying.

If the AS are to be accorded respect simply for being able to channel, then Egwene should be kissing Rand's feet. Their interactions in ToM are basically akin to Obama ordering Jesus around.


Which is exactly why she says they must change. They will certainly join with the men equally post TG to fill out RJ's theme of balance.

As for your point above about Rand what else would you have had Egwene do at that time? She has been receiving reports of his insanity and atrocities and then he wanders into the WT claiming he needs to break the seals which is madness according to all in world info outside of what Rand, Min and Fel know. He then refuses to explain or discuss it despite her entreaties(and we know he antagonized her on purpose to get the very reaction he did). Now as readers we understand he doesn't have any plan and is hoping Min finds the answers but you can not look at this from a reader perspective. Based on what she knows it is her duty as Amyrlin to question his actions. Further if you have read the AMoL early release materials it makes her stance way more clear and shows the research she has done on the topic.

Edited by Suttree, 07 November 2012 - 07:50 PM.

Waves are the ultimate illusion. They come out of nowhere, instantaneously materialize, and just as quickly they break and vanish. Chasing after such fleeting mirages is a complete wast of time. That is what I choose to do with my life." - Miki Dora

 


 


#411 Ghost

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 07:57 PM


Sure she has, all for the purpose of keeping as much political power as possible. She firmly holds the AS view that the WT should have political stewardship of the world. Given the rise of the WOs, the Windfinders, and the BT, this is obviously delusional.


Errmm what? You need to take the blinders off and start actually basing your views on the text my friend. She has called them fools and vowed they must change. We are literally hammered over the head with the responsibility she feels in unifying, changing and having the WT whole to serve the world at TG. She literally advocates the exact opposite of what you claim above. Also the channeler exchange program will do more to change AS views than anything they have done in the last 2,000 years. Imagine the good it will do accepted to get those real world lessons that Cads says "not everyone can learn in the WT". You can question Egwene putting her faith in the WT as the best institution to lead the light but that is another discussion entirely. What you can not do is question her intentions...

ToM

"Please take care," Egwene said, summoning herself a cup of tea. "I am not only one of those fools, my friend, but I am their leader. Queen of the fools, you might say."

Bair hesitated. "I have toh
."

"Not for speaking the truth," Egwene assured her. "Many of them are fools, but are we not all fools at some point? You did not abandon me to my failures when you found me walking Tel'aran'rhiod
. In like manner, I cannot abandon those of the White Tower."


ToM

"The world as it was cannot be ours any longer," Egwene said softly, not wanting the Wise Ones to overhear. "Was it ever? The Black Tower bonds Aes Sedai, the Aiel no longer revere us, the Windfinders have hidden their best channelers from us for centuries and are becoming increasingly belligerent. If we try to hold too tightly to all of this, we will either become tyrants or fools, depending upon how successful we are. I accept neither title.


It is quite clear she knows the world is changing and she is calling out the WT on how they have operated. I challenge you to provide one passage that supports your interpretation of some secret plot for world domination. She even explicitly states what her goal is and far from personnel power it is....

ToM

Obliquely, she realized what she was doing. She was using Rand's proclamation as a beacon by which to gather and tie the monarchs to the White Tower. They would come to support her arguments against breaking the seals. But in the end, they would serve humankind in the Last Battle.


A bunch of women in an ivory tower doling out commands to rulers is not balance. How many times in Siuan's and Egwene's chapters do we hear about Egwene being an Amyrlin to make thrones tremble. That's her end goal. She will have to make peace with Logain's leadership, and I believe she will, but her current, unrealistic view of the WT are annoying.

If the AS are to be accorded respect simply for being able to channel, then Egwene should be kissing Rand's feet. Their interactions in ToM are basically akin to Obama ordering Jesus around.


Which is exactly why she says they must change. They will certainly join with the men equally post TG to fill out RJ's theme of balance. As for your point above about Rand what else would you have Egwene do? She has been receiving reports of his madness and atrocities and then he wanders into the WT claiming he needs to break the seals which is madness according to all in world info outside of what Rand, Min and Fel know. He then refuses to explain or discuss it despite her entreaties(and we know he antagonized her on purpose to get the very reaction he did). Now we know he doesn't have any plan and is hoping Min finds the answers but you can not look at this from a reader perspective. Based on what she knows it is her very duty as Amyrlin to question his actions. Further if you have read the AMoL early release materials it makes her stance way more clear and shows the research she has done on the topic.


She recognizes that the world is changing, but her motives for the exchange are partly to bring the WOs and the Windfinders under the fold of the WT. I don't remember the exact quote, but she specifically mentions at one point having to "deal with the WOs without letting them realize she was dealing with them". Does this sound collaborative? She participates in the exchanges because she must. It is the only measure of influence she can exert on these "wilders". I'm not arguing that she doesn't want to change the culture of the WT, I'm arguing that she wants to retain the political influence that the WT had.

As for her dealings with Rand, how about showing him some respect? Rand speaks to her politely, while she commands him to show respect to the Amyrlin Seat. She also mentions the bonding of Sisters as a crime that needs to be discussed, while AS bonding Asha'man are perfectly legitimate.

Look, Egwene has admirable qualitites but she also has a lot of AS arrogance and hypocrisy. I like her plans for changing the Sisters' attitudes, but from reading up to ToM anyways, I am not so certain of how she will react to giving up political power. You said it yourself, she questions Rand's sanity. Why then would she trust the BT? As of ToM, she does not believe Rand is sane, is skeptical of whether or not Saidin has been cleansed, and thus, has no plans to show any deference to men.

Edited by Ghost, 07 November 2012 - 07:58 PM.


#412 Suttree

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 08:22 PM

She recognizes that the world is changing, but her motives for the exchange are partly to bring the WOs and the Windfinders under the fold of the WT. I don't remember the exact quote, but she specifically mentions at one point having to "deal with the WOs without letting them realize she was dealing with them". Does this sound collaborative? She participates in the exchanges because she must. It is the only measure of influence she can exert on these "wilders". I'm not arguing that she doesn't want to change the culture of the WT, I'm arguing that she wants to retain the political influence that the WT had.


The thing about the deal though is it has a fair starting point and doesn't give any of the groups a leg up or unfair advantage over the others. As a leader it is her duty to look out for the WT's influence but the deal is absolutely collaborative. Each group knows that the other will be jockeying for position within the framework of the deal, do you truly think Sorilea or the WFs will not be doing the same? They all know this going hence the following statement "Then we have to play the best," Egwene said."

As for her dealings with Rand, how about showing him some respect? Rand speaks to her politely, while she commands him to show respect to the Amyrlin Seat.


Ah but he wasn't. In fact we know he purposely antagonized her in true AS fashion to get the response he did.

ToM

"Not yet, Nynaeve. I've poured hot oil into the White Tower, and it will be boiling soon. Time. We don't have time! I will get help to Lan, I vow it to you, but right now I must prepare to face Egwene."

"Face her?" Nynaeve said, stepping forward. "Rand, what have you done?"

"What needed to be done. Where is Bashere?"


You said it yourself, she questions Rand's sanity. Why then would she trust the BT? As of ToM, she does not believe Rand is sane, is skeptical of whether or not Saidin has been cleansed, and thus, has no plans to show any deference to men.


May have to wait until you have read the advance materials or AMoL to discuss this one. Let's just say it is easier to look at her in a better light on this topic post new material. To your point about Saidin though people not believing it is clean until seeing proof is highly realistic, if still frustrating.

TGS

Saidin is cleansed now,” he said to her. “This practice must stop.”

She pursed her lips, regarding him. “Your . . . man spoke of this, Coramoor. Some find it difficult to accept.”


“It is true,” he said firmly.


“I do not doubt that you believe it to be so.”


Rand gritted his teeth, forcing down another burst of anger, his hand forming a fist. He had cleansed the taint! He, Rand al'Thor, had performed a deed the likes of which had not been seen since the Age of Legends. And how was it treated? With suspicion and doubt. Most assumed that he was going mad, and therefore seeing a "cleansing" that had not really happened.


Men who could channel were always distrusted. Yet they were the only ones who could confirm what Rand said! He'd imagined joy and wonder at the victory, but he should have known better. Though male Aes Sedai had once been as respected as their female counterparts, that had been long ago. The days of Jorlen Corbesan had been lost in time. All people could remember now was the Breaking and the Madness.


They hated male channelers.


It is my belief that during TG this proof will become widespread. They will have to work hand in hand as equals and that will be the spring board for the future. I will agree though that she drinks a bit too much of the AS kool-aid for my liking. Think it is obvious that she has the greater good in mind however with her actions. I always go back to her being the one friend who really stuck by Rand's side when it came out that he could channel. That type of thinking will go along way in her views towards male channelers moving forward.

Edited by Suttree, 07 November 2012 - 08:32 PM.

Waves are the ultimate illusion. They come out of nowhere, instantaneously materialize, and just as quickly they break and vanish. Chasing after such fleeting mirages is a complete wast of time. That is what I choose to do with my life." - Miki Dora

 


 


#413 Ghost

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:55 AM


She recognizes that the world is changing, but her motives for the exchange are partly to bring the WOs and the Windfinders under the fold of the WT. I don't remember the exact quote, but she specifically mentions at one point having to "deal with the WOs without letting them realize she was dealing with them". Does this sound collaborative? She participates in the exchanges because she must. It is the only measure of influence she can exert on these "wilders". I'm not arguing that she doesn't want to change the culture of the WT, I'm arguing that she wants to retain the political influence that the WT had.


The thing about the deal though is it has a fair starting point and doesn't give any of the groups a leg up or unfair advantage over the others. As a leader it is her duty to look out for the WT's influence but the deal is absolutely collaborative. Each group knows that the other will be jockeying for position within the framework of the deal, do you truly think Sorilea or the WFs will not be doing the same? They all know this going hence the following statement "Then we have to play the best," Egwene said."


Yes, but looking at the context of the conversation between Egwene and the WOs reveals a lot. Bair is clearly aware of what Egwene is trying to do, and even warns her half-jokingly, that Egwene should not expect WOs to become AS. Egwene recognizes this warning. Her intent is quite clear: eventually she wants the WOs and Windfinders to be under the fold of the WT. This is in line with AS viewpoints. They think of themselves as the ultimate keepers and authority of the One Power, and Egwene represents this line of thinking.



As for her dealings with Rand, how about showing him some respect? Rand speaks to her politely, while she commands him to show respect to the Amyrlin Seat.


Ah but he wasn't. In fact we know he purposely antagonized her in true AS fashion to get the response he did.

ToM

"Not yet, Nynaeve. I've poured hot oil into the White Tower, and it will be boiling soon. Time. We don't have time! I will get help to Lan, I vow it to you, but right now I must prepare to face Egwene."

"Face her?" Nynaeve said, stepping forward. "Rand, what have you done?"

"What needed to be done. Where is Bashere?"


He antagonized her, yes, but he did so politely. He even asks her permission when withdrawing. Whereas she still views him as a jumped up sheepherder, given her thoughts on his cultured demeanor being at odds with his upbringing. Hypocritical?



You said it yourself, she questions Rand's sanity. Why then would she trust the BT? As of ToM, she does not believe Rand is sane, is skeptical of whether or not Saidin has been cleansed, and thus, has no plans to show any deference to men.


May have to wait until you have read the advance materials or AMoL to discuss this one. Let's just say it is easier to look at her in a better light on this topic post new material. To your point about Saidin though people not believing it is clean until seeing proof is highly realistic, if still frustrating.

TGS

Saidin is cleansed now,” he said to her. “This practice must stop.”

She pursed her lips, regarding him. “Your . . . man spoke of this, Coramoor. Some find it difficult to accept.”


“It is true,” he said firmly.


“I do not doubt that you believe it to be so.”


Rand gritted his teeth, forcing down another burst of anger, his hand forming a fist. He had cleansed the taint! He, Rand al'Thor, had performed a deed the likes of which had not been seen since the Age of Legends. And how was it treated? With suspicion and doubt. Most assumed that he was going mad, and therefore seeing a "cleansing" that had not really happened.


Men who could channel were always distrusted. Yet they were the only ones who could confirm what Rand said! He'd imagined joy and wonder at the victory, but he should have known better. Though male Aes Sedai had once been as respected as their female counterparts, that had been long ago. The days of Jorlen Corbesan had been lost in time. All people could remember now was the Breaking and the Madness.


They hated male channelers.


It is my belief that during TG this proof will become widespread. They will have to work hand in hand as equals and that will be the spring board for the future. I will agree though that she drinks a bit too much of the AS kool-aid for my liking. Think it is obvious that she has the greater good in mind however with her actions. I always go back to her being the one friend who really stuck by Rand's side when it came out that he could channel. That type of thinking will go along way in her views towards male channelers moving forward.



She certainly does have the greater good in mind, no arguments there. But she wants to do it the AS way. She wants to make thrones tremble. She wants to be respected. She wants to be an Amyrlin for the ages. Yet, the BT sits pretty in Andor, and Elayne has plans to tie them to her. Why would Andor fear or deal with the WT, when the BT sits pretty within their borders. See how that conflicts with the all-powerful, ever influencial image of the WT?

I think Egwene will have to cede political authority to others, but she will not do so happily. Again, I haven't read AMoL yet so perhaps I'm wrong.

At the end of the day, Egwene is, as you said, a bit heavy on the AS kool-aid. Said kool-aid is very hypocritical and arrogant. Thus, it is fair to say that given her short tenure as AS and Amyrlin, her bias against the saviour of their world (a bias which stems partly from AS views, and partly from plain sexism), and her bias against male channelers and all who encroach on her (Egwene, as the Amyrlin seat) authority, she is a jumped up inn keeper's daughter.

#414 Night Angel Kage

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 06:10 PM

I'm not a fan of Egwene, but I don't hate her. I still have a desire to see her killed off though. She's very much matured, but I don't like how she treats Rand, she just assumes the worst about him, rather then actually talking with him. That has already been mentioned. I also do not like how she treats Gwayne(spelling?) I mean, the guy sabes her life, hey may have had to disobey orders to do it, but he loves her, and saved her life. Yet, all he gets is yelled at, not one thank you. When he left for Camylen(spelling?), I applauded and really wish he would have stayed away. I don't like Gwayne much either, he hated Rand because he thought he killed his Mom, but he still hates Rand even after learning Morgase was alive, idiot.

Anyway, I'm not a fan of Egwene, definitly my least favorite character. Elayne isn't my favorite either, but that's another topic.
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#415 DemandredFO

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 07:08 PM

Suttree, Egwene does want to change the Tower but she is inconsistent. She knows the binder is killing sister yet makes Nyneave and other swear or reswear. She approves of Nyneave yet if she hadn't disappeared and ignored Egwene, Saidin would still be tainted and she wouldn't healed madness. Nyneave has character progression, Egwene is just a fully formed goddess from the beginning. Finally, Egwene had absolutely no plan for taking Tar Valon, without Seanchan interference, she would have most likely caused a battle royale among AS


Edited by DemandredFO, 14 July 2014 - 07:13 PM.

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#416 mb

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 02:15 PM

no plan?  It seems to me that she did.  Just that she changed it when circumstances changed.

 

About the binder, she did at one time consider to no longer require the oaths.  Her changed opinion seemed to be due to mainly Arangar's Compulsion on her; and slightly due to talks with Suian.

As far as I recall, her last opinion about it was to have Aes Sedia foreswear shortly before age 300 and retire into the Kin.


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