Red Ajah IWW: Crimes against women in the Media (Discussion)

[Moon Sedai]

This week, I'll be hosting a discussion of Violence Against women in the Media. 
 

I DO NOT CONDONE WATCHING THESE FILMS OR VIDEOS, ESPECIALLY FOR THE DRAGONMOUNT MEMBERS UNDER THE AGE OF 18.

Because of ratings issues, I cannot put links to many of the songs, videos, or movies that
I will mention in this discussion and request that you do not post links either.

 

Over the past several decades, a variety of TV shows, musicians, and films have shown varieties of violent acts performed against women.

I am going to divide my discussion into Film, Music and Television, with each day having a few questions.
 

Day One: film  Examples include:

My list is not all inclusive. These were just a handful of examples I came up with off the top of my head. 
Last House on the Left (2009): Includes a long, (around 10 minutes) brutal scene of sexual assault on a young woman. (Ultimately, the violent offender has his head microwaved)

Psycho (1960) A wayward woman is murdered in the shower.

Platoon (1986) A platoon of US military men in Vietnam destroy a small village, including the sexual assault of the village’s women.

The Color Purple (1985). Domestic abuse. While the film shows women overcoming the obstacles, it is still a primary theme.

Question: Does the increasing prevalence of violence against women in film make us numb to violence against women in life? Do we become immune to VaW when we see it in movies, or does it make us want to move to act? How do we feel when we see violence against women in films?

 

I believe that it is the case. The more we see things like rape, murder, or violence performed in a film, the less likely we are to protest the things in real life. This is not to say that because we see a violent act performed in a film that we will do them, but we won't be as bothered by the scenes. 

In some cases, like Color Purple or Last House,  we want to act when there is a violent act. Last House, a Revenge fantasy, makes us feel violence must be repaid with violence, whereas in Color Purple, there is a feeling of being powerless to stop it.  

 

When I see brutal acts of violence performed against women in films, I get sick to my stomach. 

[Tamerya]

I haven't seen any of the movies you've listed, but there are other movies I've seen where there IS violence against women and I have actually walked out of a movie because of it (I don't remember which one off the top of my head).  I refuse to support something that "glorifies" violence against women, and I think a lot of movies do - even unintentionally.  Having these in movies (without any repercussion to the character doing them), shows that it is "okay" and "normal"...when I don't think it is.  Nor do I think responding to violence with violence is appropriate.  THat kind of society is not one I'd want to live in....

[TylerRVG]

Psycho (1960) A wayward woman is murdered in the shower.

 

Sorry, but why are you using this as an example? This scene simply depicts murder; something which happens in literally almost every film ever. Why is psycho getting singled out?

[Nyanna al'Meara]

Interesting topic... I just chatted to some International Women's Day info stand people in town before.

 

I don't know the films you've listed - and I'm glad. I get really sick at graphic violence in movies too, it's disgusting and a totally wrong interpretation of/not following the storytelling rule "show, don't tell".

Then again... maybe in some cases the media audience of today really is so toughened up that only such horrible scenes will waken people up? Society is SAD.
I agree that since violence (incl and esp against women) in film is so common, it does kinda seem like it's being glorified, when you think about it... I avoid graphic violence films generally though, so I can't really judge.

 

I wouldn't ever become immune to this kind of thing, I'll sooner switch the film off or walk out. Examples where I have seen similar scenes in though have, albeit sickening me, also made me THINK more about the VaW status quo. In my experience, it's generated awareness among me and my friends, both women and guys. It's made us as you said, want to act. It gave us motivation to find out more, especially about how to [help] stop it, or even be aware of how we can try to stay out of the way of things like these happening... and I think for us teenage girls to actually think about this deeply, was (and is) really important for our current and future lives. Too many things happen because of ignorance, not being careful enough, not knowing what support one can turn to if something does happen to you or someone you know - I think it's very valuable to us that we KNOW how to take try to take care of ourselves, KNOW there is Helpline, KNOW that women can stand up and have support.

 

Anyway, back to the topic :P I still don't condone violence in films, just describing the effect it had on me and people I know.  I wish society would pay more attention to what happens without the media going this far. *shakes head*

 

 

I believe that it is the case. The more we see things like rape, murder, or violence performed in a film, the less likely we are to protest the things in real life. This is not to say that because we see a violent act performed in a film that we will do them, but we won't be as bothered by the scenes.

Hmm... I dunno about being less likely to protest against violence against women in rl when we see them on screen - they are after all pretty shocking and I find it hard to imagine that anyone could get totally numb to them >.<
However violent battle scenes, graphic depictions of blood and bones and yadayadayada - all these contribute to the general development of a cold shoulder among filmgoers, and in the end this toughening does lead to viewing VaW with a very different perspective too. I believe we're getting so used to the assuring attitude of "oh, it's not real, it's all fake", that this outlook unconsciously changes on how we view the same thing happening around us. The line between reality and the depictions of reality is very very fine.

 

Oh yeah - Once Were Warriors is a film like this that had a huge impact on me, it's about a contemporary Maori family that deals with all kinds of violence against women that are still happening, and common. It's very well known in NZ but I'm not sure if anyone here's heard of it.
Schindler's List was just as profound.

[Hallia]

I saw Last House on the Left - That movie makes me so ill!  

[Tsukibana]

Violence against women in films is actually less prevalent than violence against men (as men are more often tortured, maimed, and brutalized on screen),

However, sexual violence against women is MORE common, due to the greater ease of such actions (PLEASE, don't jump on me). While contemplating

this argument, I can think of only one scene where men were the victims (Pulp Fiction) (make that two: Deliverance).

It seems to me that this should be the element discussed, not violence in general.

From urban music to fetish art to "putting her in her place", depictions of sexual violence against women are prevalent, and YES I do think that such

frequency does in fact desensitize us to the ramifications. (How many young men do you know (in the US) that refer to almost every woman they speak

about as a bitch or ho??)

The question becomes: Why?? Is this a remnant of Judeo-Islamic-Christian thought, which places the majority of Original Sin in Eve's hands? Is this a remnant

of evolutionary perogatives (sic) , where one must dominate one's mate in order to prevent her from straying? What about those cultures (india, for example)

that still have goddess worship, and yet have high SVaW rates? What is the underlying cause there??

[michellem]

There are few things in movies that make me physically sick. If there's a gorey scene in a movie, I just look away while it's happening. But there is one scene, that has made me feel physically ill in two languages... It's The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, the Swedish original is called Menn som hatar kvinnor. I've seen both version. There's a scene where the female lead is bound and raped by her caseworker. I have to fast-forward over these parts when I watch the movie. Unlike in most other movies though, Lisbeth gets her proper revenge and her rapist a good taste of his own medicine... But still.

 

As to your question Moon, I think how people view VaW depends on how their view women in general. Those that already look down on women, gets less bothered by violence in movies. For those who see all the problems with how women are treated, from the rednecks beating their wife and children to the women in the Middle East who's covered from head to toe, VaW in movies bother them more. I don't think the violence in movies will go away, and nor should it before it's away in real life; movies should reflect the real world. But I do think it's a good measurement of peoples view on these things on how they react to it.

[WildTaltos]

 

Psycho (1960) A wayward woman is murdered in the shower.

 

Sorry, but why are you using this as an example? This scene simply depicts murder; something which happens in literally almost every film ever. Why is psycho getting singled out?

I agre with tylre on that, its ben long whiel since i seen ths film but I didnt get th impresion of its criem done specifcilly based on sex but a craze person mudering somone, whch hapens so oftn in slasher films.

 

Othre than psycho, Iv seen Last Huose on th Left, th original Wes Craven versin in the 70s, whch I gues must be somthing of the same a the new one mentined, two women aer raped and thn kiled by a gruop of seril killres and then the parents of oen of them get revenge on the killres. So,,,

 

Question: Does the increasing prevalence of violence against women in film make us numb to violence against women in life? Do we become immune to VaW when we see it in movies, or does it make us want to move to act? How do we feel when we see violence against women in films?

I wuold say it dos - compard to say 50 yers ago, peple dont react as mch to scnes of violence. Prety much reslt of oversaturation of films with violence and alot of exposur to it as childrn thruogh films and more recntly video games - if yuo constantly exposd to it and there isnt much of anyting to reinforec that it is bad, yuo get the result of it bein normalised and somthing not to react to. Realy depend on upbring then - if yuor not taught its bad an it sems normal, yuor not liabl to reat much to it, but if yuo hav been taugh or had soem traumtic expreince that maeks you strongly repuls by it, yuo will react. Im not too suer how wel it intreprets into whthre it will affect hw yuo view it in real life - most people in modrn countris dont have to se it very oftn. I usuly have strict lien betwen fantsy and reality - so if i se soemone beatin a woman in real life, i wuold defintly intrevene, but if I jus see it on a screen, I generly wont reac becuse I know it smoek and mirors. 

[Moon Sedai]

Psycho's murder scene was extremely sexual, especially in the 1960s.

It almost had the movie bannedw

[Sunrise Lord]

Any violence at all in a movie, much less violence directed towards a woman, leaves me shaking from head to toe.  I can't handle it, period.  It leaves me depressed and disoriented.  Much of that I think stems from my childhood.  My mother left my biological dad (who never laid a hand on her) when I was 3.  That same year, she hooked up with my first step-dad.  For ten years, I lived with a drunk and drug addict and saw my mom in the hospital multiple times a year and watched as a gun was aimed at us.  She never called the cops or pressed charges... she was too afraid.  Then, when I was 13, he left all of a sudden and never came back.  A year later, she married the man she's still married to today, 7 years ago.  His was a different kind of violence... his was verbal and psychological.  He even told her she was lying about having cancer and still believes so to this day.  He has to dominate anyone and anything.

 

As to the question; seeing it so often does nothing to dampen its effect on my way of thinking. 

[TylerRVG]

Psycho's murder scene was extremely sexual

 

Sexual -how?

 

She was getting stabbed to death with a knife, with no sexual connotations to anything, minus the fact that she was in the shower. Someone being nude does not mean sexual.

[Reyoru]

 

The question becomes: Why?? Is this a remnant of Judeo-Islamic-Christian thought, which places the majority of Original Sin in Eve's hands?

 

This is something I haven't come across before. I can only speak from a Christian perspective, but both Adam and Eve (and the serpent) were punished for eating from the tree in Genesis 3 - and both were expelled from the Garden of Eden. Where does this idea of "placing the majority of Original Sin in Eve's hands" come from?

[WildTaltos]

 

The question becomes: Why?? Is this a remnant of Judeo-Islamic-Christian thought, which places the majority of Original Sin in Eve's hands?

 

This is something I haven't come across before. I can only speak from a Christian perspective, but both Adam and Eve (and the serpent) were punished for eating from the tree in Genesis 3 - and both were expelled from the Garden of Eden. Where does this idea of "placing the majority of Original Sin in Eve's hands" come from?

 

i dnt kno much abuot it but ths is quote from genesis an it sems mostly th saem in all th Englsh versoins I see:

 

Genesis 3:16

 

He said to the woman: I will intensify your labor pains; you will bear children in anguish. Your desire will be for your husband, yet he will rule over you.

 

Thugh it may mean soemthing els, I dont stufy this stuff naturally, the first impresion I get from he wil ruel ovre you is that women is bein placed inferior to man and taht uwold seem a greter punshment/greater blame for waht was done.I wuld imagine mos peple wuold see it taht way too considerin thers lot of christin gruops still arond today besids the entir attitud of the middle ages who sem to take taht take in deming women shuld be submisive or inferior basd on phrases liek that.

[Arez Al'Loke]

"Question: Does the increasing prevalence of violence against women in film make us numb to violence against women in life? Do we become immune to VaW when we see it in movies, or does it make us want to move to act? How do we feel when we see violence against women in films?"

 

Nope, I don't believe the two have much to do with eachother. It's like the whole "does violent video games increase the number of criminals?" where there is absolutely no proof of this being the case.

If someone can actually show me propper conducted research that compares the percentual increase of VaW per year as the percentual number of movies that contain VaW is increases, there would actually be something to discuss.

Right now to me it just seems like someone is trying to blame the movie industry for the unjust way some women are being treated.

 

In short, I do not believe movies/videogames/books can be blamed for VaW.

[Moon Sedai]

I'm just trying to get discussion going.

[Davrick]

I've not seen any of the movies listed but this made me think of a movie I have.  It stars my favorite actress Monica Bellucci, which is why I bought it in the first place.  I probably should have checked the movie out first before buying it, oh well thats a different matter.  This movie is called Irreversible and its told backwards kinda like the movie memento. 

 

Here is the story line.

 

Events over the course of one traumatic night in Paris unfold in reverse-chronological order as the beautiful Alex is brutally raped and
beaten by a stranger in the underpass. Her boyfriend and ex-lover take matters into their own hands by hiring two criminals to help them find
the rapist so that they can exact revenge. A simultaneously beautiful and terrible examination of the destructive nature of cause and effect,
and how time destroys everything.

 

 

If I remember correctly this was the most walked out of movie at the cannes film festival the year it came out but not because of the subject matter, though that did play a part.  The first 30 minutes of the film has a background noise with a frequency of 28Hz (low frequency, almost inaudible), similar to the noise produced by an earthquake. In humans, it causes nausea, sickness and vertigo. It was the main cause of people walking out of the theaters during the first part of the film.  I'm still not sure why they wanted people to feel this way because of the background noise but Im sure the director had his reasons.

 

After watching the film I have never watched it again.  I was rather disturbed by the film in some parts of it, however I did like how they told the story backwards because it left me wondering what caused the people to do these things.

[Tsukibana]

 

The question becomes: Why?? Is this a remnant of Judeo-Islamic-Christian thought, which places the majority of Original Sin in Eve's hands?

 

This is something I haven't come across before. I can only speak from a Christian perspective, but both Adam and Eve (and the serpent) were punished for eating from the tree in Genesis 3 - and both were expelled from the Garden of Eden. Where does this idea of "placing the majority of Original Sin in Eve's hands" come from?

 

After the fruit was eaten, God first asked Adam what happened... He did not approach the woman first. (Also, woman was a secondary creation, according to Genesis, coming after man).

The man blamed the woman, the woman blamed the snake... Curse of man: Labor for food and sustenance. Curse of Snake: Crawl on belly in dust, strike man's heel, get crushed (nothing but prophecy, this punishment; look it up). Curse of Woman, however: Painful labor, second class to man, subservient to man (for whom she was previously a 'help-meet', an equal partner.

 

Even stemming from psycho-social raminfications of mythology attempting to explain historical events (example: Story of Cain and Abel representing a shift in Middle Eastern culture, whereby herding nomads moved in and overthrew agriculture based societies), the Punishment of Eve has no logical, directly historical cause (unless one accept a patriarchal society remembering goddess based cultures and attempting to ensure their culture stays in the hands of the men). Genesis was written during the Exodus, so what were the reasons for this??

 

(Note: Judeo-Islamic-Christian thought also gave us our current "do what you will to the Earth attitude", as well as being ONE OF the foundations of Western Law.)

 

As for violence in films, etc: I could care less... perhaps I have been desensitized, but when I see a scene of violence in media, I FIRST take into acount the source. If I watch a movie, then I know it is fiction, and it bothers me no more than 'battle porn' in novels. When I play a video game, I get a sense of giggling glee at awesome death animations (think 'fatalities' from Mortal Kombat). When the news, however, spouts off about the latest child victim of a crime, the latest shooting spree, or the death of a woman from an abusive spouse, the feeling is COMPLETELY different. Additionally, it depends on how the media I am watching portrays the perpetrator of these crimes: Law and Order: SVU has NEVER made me cheer for the criminal the way I would for Dexter, and I would argue that that is appropriate, as sex crimes should never be glorified. But neither should serial killers, right??

Perhaps I AM a child of this culture, but it seems to me that part of being a mature, thinking adult is knowing our own minds, knowing what is moral, and knowing what is REAL.

(For those whom violence "leaves me shaking from head to toe. I can't handle it, period. It leaves me depressed and disoriented" (this is NOT a personal attack, merely a quote and a question), how on Earth did you ever finish the Wheel, let alone any other book that is not a romance?? It seems to me that implied violence, by which WE fill in the gaps and flesh it out, has the potential to be even more disturbing (figs, a basket, and some mice *shudders*).

[Tsukibana]

Also, This: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/17/ten-country-comparison-suggests-theres-little-or-no-link-between-video-games-and-gun-murders/

 

Granted, the study was on video games, but we are talking about media in general...

[Moon Sedai]

Okay. On to Music/Videos. 

 

 

Please bear in mind that my lists are not all-inclusive.

 

Music Examples:

 

Primus’s Smack my B**** up. The video is shot from first person point of view, where the ‘narrator’ participates in a number of violent and sexual activities and abuses drugs, only to be revealed as a woman in a mirror at the end of the video.

(This brings up an interesting point about women performing the violence against other women)
 

Eminem’s catalog- a lot of his works include references to hurting his mother or his ex-wife (97 Bonnie and Clyde, and Stan, for example).

Insane Clown Posse um…. No.

Britney Spears “Hit me baby one more time” and “Slave4U”

Katy Perry’s Extra Terrestrial “I wanna be a victim/Ready for redemption”

Rhianna’s Watch me Burn (Or whatever that one is called)

Should VaW be censored in Music? Do lyrics that condone “smacking a b**** up” or asking a man to “hit me one more time” put the thought of performing these acts into the listener’s minds?


 

[Nolder]

Eminem’s catalog- a lot of his works include references to hurting his mother or his ex-wife (97 Bonnie and Clyde, and Stan, for example).

Anyone that knows Eminem knows that when it comes to the violent stuff it's all just fantasy for entertainment. He loves Kim and would do anything for her and he and his mom worked things out. BTW Stan has nothing to do with either his ex or his mom. It's about a crazy fan.

 

As for the topic at large. I'd have to say it's all BS. If someone has serious mental issues maybe media would be suggestive to them but when the other 90% of the population sees Mario jump on a turtle we don't want to hurt turtles (or people!). All media is entertainment and for the most part everyone knows that.

[Davrick]

This is more of a broad statement but when it comes to violence in general in media. I hate when people say it was a certain show/movie/game ect that cause themto be violent. I personally lay the blame for that kind of thing on the parents. It is up to them to explaine the difference between fantasy and reality.

[Tsukibana]

"This is more of a broad statement but when it comes to violence in general in media. I hate when people say it was a certain show/movie/game ect that cause themto be violent. I personally lay the blame for that kind of thing on the parents. It is up to them to explaine the difference between fantasy and reality."

 

This, 100%

[WildTaltos]

 

Eminem’s catalog- a lot of his works include references to hurting his mother or his ex-wife (97 Bonnie and Clyde, and Stan, for example).

Anyone that knows Eminem knows that when it comes to the violent stuff it's all just fantasy for entertainment. He loves Kim and would do anything for her and he and his mom worked things out. BTW Stan has nothing to do with either his ex or his mom. It's about a crazy fan.

 

As for the topic at large. I'd have to say it's all BS. If someone has serious mental issues maybe media would be suggestive to them but when the other 90% of the population sees Mario jump on a turtle we don't want to hurt turtles (or people!). All media is entertainment and for the most part everyone knows that.

Nolder:

 

1.) She is not refering to the artist ad a person - she is referin to th content of teh songs, whch (aand Im jus goin to asume from what im readin becuse I dont listen to rap, is violnt), and wherthre or not is fantsy to him maeks litle diference. The point of th discusion is for peple to expres whethre they thnk ths fictional/fantsy elemnt of women bein abused in media (in ths instanc, music) has an effct on peples thinkin at large, whethre children or adult, and whethr they thikn it right to sho it regardlss, how they fel abuot it, etc. 

 

2.) THIS IS NOT DEBATES AND DISCUSSION. this is a discusion for peple to expres their thughts and if disagre, point out why disagree politely not by sumarly sayin evrything being adresed is bulls***, which cuold insult othres who may haev som opinin that th media is sugestive or influentil. Yu know wher the bord for bein inflamatory is. 

[Lenlo]

Just a note.

 

While he may not have the most tact and some of the ways he does discussions are... questionable, he is discussing this as is the purpose of the thread. Just because he points out flaws in arguements does not mean he is insulting them or calling their points BS.

 

Also DnD is not about being inflammatory.  I have seen very little inflammatory posts there. Just denial and stubbornness of people refusing to admit when others are right. Dont mean to be rude or pop out of nowhere but wanted to say that.

 

Bye bye! Its nice reading this.

[Moon Sedai]

Tal just knows me, and knows if I were to say anything it would he waaaaay over the top.