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River of Souls: WoT PoV


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#1 Barid Bel Medar

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 07:48 AM

So, as it has been confirmed that Demandred - or Bao - will be the character in this sequence, and that it will most likely go into his story, a lot of speculation will be spoiler-laden. 

 

Here you can discuss it - and post any updates - without restriction 


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#2 Treeberad

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 08:08 AM

well, if you read the statement that BS posted about why he did´t incorporate this bit in AMOL then you can draw the pretty obvious conclusion that this will be about one or both of the tow followoing alt a) his adventures in Shara - how he became Bao and became to love the people there. or /and b) a discussion about his millatery tactic and his thoughts on the other chosen


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#3 Mat's Spare Hat

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 08:27 AM

It kinda reeks of day-one DLC...Cut content that a publisher's more than happy to have you pay for after release, when it was developed as a part of the original.

I get how it would be cut from AMoL, I guess for not being plot-imperative or that it otherwise detracts from the direction of the finished piece, and it doesn't surprise me that people would have to pay for it...

But common, pre-release we had what? Two or three chapters of material as freebies? Plus the scavenger hunt thing that turned into extended back-story for Cadsuane. It just kind of rubs me the wrong way at this point. Tor already has my money from AMoL, BS already got paid, stop filching. If it's that important to you to have River of Souls available to readership, post in on the web free to view. A money grab like this is so, so lame considering some of the garbage included in final drafts of TGS/TOM/AMoL.
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#4 TLHansum

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 08:30 AM

It kinda reeks of day-one DLC...Cut content that a publisher's more than happy to have you pay for after release, when it was developed as a part of the original.

I get how it would be cut from AMoL, I guess for not being plot-imperative or that it otherwise detracts from the direction of the finished piece, and it doesn't surprise me that people would have to pay for it...

But common, pre-release we had what? Two or three chapters of material as freebies? Plus the scavenger hunt thing that turned into extended back-story for Cadsuane. It just kind of rubs me the wrong way at this point. Tor already has my money from AMoL, BS already got paid, stop filching. If it's that important to you to have River of Souls available to readership, post in on the web free to view. A money grab like this is so, so lame considering some of the garbage included in final drafts of TGS/TOM/AMoL.
_____

And, if that makes me sound like a cheapskate: Whhhoooopppdie dooooo.

 

From my understanding, all the proceeds from this go towards another writer that needs it for his cancer treatment or something, and Tor doesn't see any of it



#5 Barid Bel Medar

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 08:34 AM

Yes, River of Souls isn't actually a Tor related project. 

 

Nor is it even a WoT thing. It is part of an anthology, with several dozen other authors each contributing. 

 

It is a semi-charity anthology, as you say, to raise money to pay for the treatment of a writer who developed cancer. 

 

http://grimoakpress.com/unfettered/


 


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#6 Mat's Spare Hat

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 08:42 AM

I'll keep that in mind when folks want to start taking whatever is in River of Souls as canon.

Meanwhile, if people do want to help out with cancer related charities, consider direct donation to a treatment center of your choice delineated specifically to the care of whomever your cause d'etre behooves.



#7 Barid Bel Medar

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 08:53 AM

It will be canon.

 

The sequence was initially in aMoL, but cut so as not to distract from the Last Battle, everything in it is still canon. 

 

The anthology itself is just not a WoT project, but a compilation. 

 

Donating to charity has nothing to do with the anthology. Yes, it is helping out a cause, but it is still a product. 

 

You pay to receive a compilation of works from various well known fantasy authors. That it helps out is only a bonus. 


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#8 Mat's Spare Hat

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 11:45 AM

So what are your thoughts then, on the concept of whether or not the release of River of Souls, regardless of charitable intent(because as you say, it's only a bonus), constitutes blatant profiteering?

 



#9 esvath

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 11:46 AM

I hope we can get Demandred adventure in Shara, how he managed to control his armies, why were they loyal to him and the Sharan prophecy on Last Battle.

For little interaction between Demandred and the female Ayyad, she was not Turned, yet she was very loyal to Demandred. That was interesting. Did she a "Black Ayyad"? Or did she a woman madly in love? Or a combination of both?

#10 Aleator77

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 12:07 PM

So what are your thoughts then, on the concept of whether or not the release of River of Souls, regardless of charitable intent(because as you say, it's only a bonus), constitutes blatant profiteering?

 

 

How can it possibly be profiteering if the ones who decided to sell it aren't profiting from it?  

 

It's completely understandable why they cut it from the book.  The entire series has been building Demandred up for that one moment where he arrives with an entire enemy army.  Showing a point of view of his leading up to that would have completely undermined the impact of the moment.  However, since it's already written they decided to let us see it.  I think it's the right choice.



#11 Mark Grayson

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 12:14 PM

So what are your thoughts then, on the concept of whether or not the release of River of Souls, regardless of charitable intent(because as you say, it's only a bonus), constitutes blatant profiteering?

 

How is it profiteering? TOR, Brandon, and Harriett are not making any money from it. It's a favor to a fellow writer to help pay medical bills. That's the only person the money is going towards. I doubt this story would ever have seen the light of day if this other writer didn't reach out for a contribution and Brandon and Harriett decided that this would be a good fit. So it's not like you're now having to pay for something that you would have otherwise gotten for free. You just would have never seen it.

 

From the buyer's side of things, it doesn't matter where the proceeds are going. You are paying for a story. If you appreciate the fact that the proceeds are helping someone out that needs the help than that is just a bonus.

 

But calling it profiteering is obviously incorrect.


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#12 Mat's Spare Hat

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 12:50 PM

It's profiteering because they're releasing content related directly to already published material, content that's allegedly supposed to be considered specifically within the context of AMoL as canon, for the purpose of raising money - regardless of any related cause.

Especially such because we know River of Souls, in some draft form, was intended by the writer to have been included, and was written specifically for inclusion in AMoL.

You're being charged in some manner, by somebody, for content that was developed in process towards a finished product, was then cut, and then is decided will be released after the fact, for cost beyond that of the final draft of AMoL, and should be considered canon.

Being asked to pay more for, for lack of better words "what really happened," to me, that's supposed to be taken as canonical, smacks of profiteering.

Which raises another question, because M. Grayson brought about the thought of whether or not we would ever see RoS without the spoken of Anthology - Would it bother you then, sans anthology, if River of Souls were, as a canonical piece of writing, and knowing what we know about how, when, and for what intent it was written, were going to be released on it's own, but you would have to pay for it, on top of what you already paid for AMoL...Would you consider that then, as profiteering?


Edited by Mat's Spare Hat, 18 February 2013 - 12:51 PM.


#13 OneWhoMustBeLeashed

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 12:59 PM

I'm happy to pay for more content. When will it be available?



#14 Vambram

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 01:16 PM

It's profiteering because they're releasing content related directly to already published material, content that's allegedly supposed to be considered specifically within the context of AMoL as canon, for the purpose of raising money - regardless of any related cause.

Especially such because we know River of Souls, in some draft form, was intended by the writer to have been included, and was written specifically for inclusion in AMoL.

You're being charged in some manner, by somebody, for content that was developed in process towards a finished product, was then cut, and then is decided will be released after the fact, for cost beyond that of the final draft of AMoL, and should be considered canon.

Being asked to pay more for, for lack of better words "what really happened," to me, that's supposed to be taken as canonical, smacks of profiteering.

Which raises another question, because M. Grayson brought about the thought of whether or not we would ever see RoS without the spoken of Anthology - Would it bother you then, sans anthology, if River of Souls were, as a canonical piece of writing, and knowing what we know about how, when, and for what intent it was written, were going to be released on it's own, but you would have to pay for it, on top of what you already paid for AMoL...Would you consider that then, as profiteering?

 

There is no way that this could possibly be considered profiteering by most reasonable people when ALL OF THE PROFITS from the sale of this anthology will go to charity. How you could even accuse them of profiteering after seeing the facts is simply something I can't fathom.


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#15 Aulduron

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 01:18 PM

Profiteering is defined as  making excessive profits on goods in short supply, or in an unethical manner. Such accusations usually come when prices on necessities are raised during an emergency.

 

I see nothing about this story that resembles profiteering.


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#16 Mark Grayson

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 01:43 PM

Which raises another question, because M. Grayson brought about the thought of whether or not we would ever see RoS without the spoken of Anthology - Would it bother you then, sans anthology, if River of Souls were, as a canonical piece of writing, and knowing what we know about how, when, and for what intent it was written, were going to be released on it's own, but you would have to pay for it, on top of what you already paid for AMoL...Would you consider that then, as profiteering?

That would at least sort of fit the definition (which the actual situation of course doesn't). But I wouldn't care at all. It was cut from aMoL for artistic/story telling reasons, not for the purpose of selling it separately. So you got the story they wanted to tell in the book. If there is additional material available that they feel fans might want, then you have to pay extra to get extra. If I don't feel like paying I just won't buy it. And I never begrudge anyone for making money. If they have a product I want at a price I'm willing to pay, I'll buy it. If not, I won't. It's that simple to me.


No doubt he was one of those so proud of being able to use the Power as a weapon that he had disdained really learning the sword. Rand had not disdained.

#17 NitroS

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 05:29 PM

I dont know what Mat's spare hat problem is but he got up on the wrong side of the bed today. Dont even know why book sale profits going to a charity is even considered unethical but mat's spare hat has a different take on the matter to us.

 

On Topic: It is interesting to hear where the original story arc of bao would have been in the book originally? Just before the last battle? if it was going to be in MOL it would have to be in the very beginning so the readers could have slightly forgot about it by the time he arrives in kandor against he Aes Sedai. Im glad it got cut, my single favourite moment in the book and nearly the series was when it was egwenes pov and described a massive gateway being opened and thinking to myself this has to be Demandred! This would have been heavily reduced if we had a back story that explained demandreds past where he has been and what hes upto. (which alot of people for some unknown reason are complaining we didnt have in the Demandred thread)

 

If i recall i think its equivalent of 10000 words, not sure if i heard brandon say that or a fan guessing but i read it somewhere.



#18 Crowl Rife

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 05:39 PM

For all we know they might have included it in the new encyclopedia they plan on doing, and you would have had to pay for it anyway.  Or like Mark Grayson said, it would have never been released.  So who really cares, if you don't like what they're doing with it, don't buy it.  I personally want to read it and am happy to pay for the anthology to get it.  Looking forward to it.

 

If it ruined the surprise appearance of Demandred then I would agree that it was a good idea to cut it.  That also was one of my favorite moments of the book.



#19 Mat's Spare Hat

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 06:29 PM

Unethical manner: Providing content post-release, at an additional cost, when said content was intended & produced with intent to be included in some draft form, that could be construed as directly contributing to the motivations, characterization, or a portrayal directly contrasting to established characterization of a given character - in this case Demandred, which can be examined if you choose to leaf through the Demandred thread - to the point at which we're supposed to take said 'extra' content as canon, when we know it was originally designated, written & purposed to be a part of AMoL, but, at this point, will only be available at an extra price through a very, very specific avenue.

You're being additionally charged for something that was intended, by the writer, to be a part of AMoL. At the very least, River of Souls is implied to provide some detail to the point of clarifying the positioning & characterization of possibly one of the most anticipated appearances of a major villain in WoT. A villain, as portrayed in AMoL, that's tangibly different in both his manner, knowledge, and characterization than previously established.

 



#20 Orange7

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 06:56 PM

Pay TOR more money for an extra chapter? Not likely. But I'd donate $35 to a guy with cancer for treatment. The fact that the authors are getting the word of their books around, and the fans are getting a little extra out of it just turns a win/lose scenario into a win/win/win for the Shawn, the authors, and the readers. Honestly, they could have just asked for money. They could have attempted to accumulate it themselves, but honestly, this is one of the most beautiful ways that the authors could use their talents to help out a friend in need. I can understand confusion if they were actually making a profit, but arguing it under these conditions is ridiculous.

 

A guy is dying, and if anyone else is happier with letting him die than with this idea, I would like to volunteer them for the position.

 

Seriously, guys. Listen to this:

-If you were dying, and I could raise the money to save you, I would do the same work as a volunteer. It's not that I don't consider you a friend. I just don't feel that your life is worth me asking for money from others. You know what I mean? Sorry, man.


Edited by Barid Bel Medar, 18 February 2013 - 09:06 PM.
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