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Bloodknife Ter'Angreal and Sindhol


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#1 Jonathan Bailey

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 07:46 PM

I was just wondering if there was any way the ring Ter'angreal the Bloodknives use may come from Sindhol. I read that Brandon and RJ said the Seanchan could only make the a'dam. So, where did they get the rings from? Maybe they're from Sindhol, and that's one way the 'finns get memories. When you die from it, they get your memories or whatever. I'd guess that Mat would have Seanchan memories though and he doesn't, so maybe not. If they're not from Sindhol, where did the Seanchan get them?

#2 TootThatHorn

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 08:17 PM

http://www.dragonmou...ing-terangreal/

Here you go, hope it's helpful. I'm curious if there is an origin stated for them, don't really think so but can't remember. If I had to guess though I would call it an Ishy thing.

#3 herid

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 06:45 AM

There is no support in the books for the idea that the Bloodknives came from the Finns. There is no evidence that there are any Finn portals in the Seanchan.
Birgitte never mentions them and she would likely know if they existed. She is a HoTH who lived many lives since the breaking and talked to the other HoTH who also lived many lives.
Also, Mat doesn't locate any extra portals on the Finn side when trying to get out of their world in TOM. He was in a rather desperate situation and with his luck he would have found any extra portals if they existed.
The stories the Seanchan have about the Finns are likely remnants of those brought over by Hawkwing's armies or maybe just left over since the AoL.

As for the origins of the Bloodknives, there are easier and more natural explanations possible. There was a lot of lethal stuff made during the War of the power and the Breaking. The Bloodkives could have been made then and a pile of them may have been stored in the Seanchan somewhere. It's made clear that they are used extremely rarely - Marille's speaks of a person who was a Bloodknife for many years before being sent on a mission. So a stock of a couple of thousand Bloodknives could have easily lasted since the AoL.

Edited by herid, 03 November 2012 - 06:46 AM.

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#4 Jonathan Bailey

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 09:09 PM

Thanks for the link TootThatHorn, very interesting

Hey Herid,

There is no evidence that there are any Finn portals in the Seanchan.


Just because there's no evidence of portals to Seanchan doesn't mean they don't exist. There was no evidence of dreamspikes, either, at least until they were introduced by Brandon, just like the rings. Also, they could have simply been brought to Seanchan through other means. The Seanchan did spend time in Randland

Birgitte never mentions them and she would likely know if they existed. She is a HoTH who lived many lives since the breaking and talked to the other HoTH who also lived many lives.


I don't see why she'd even bring them up. She never mentions lots of things that we know exist, the Collaam Daan, the Sharom, the Dreamspikes. Also, she's been forgetting tons of stuff since she was ripped out.

Also, Mat doesn't locate any extra portals on the Finn side when trying to get out of their world in TOM. He was in a rather desperate situation and with his luck he would have found any extra portals if they existed.


Its just my opinion, but I highly doubt that the only portals to and from Finnland are the ones Mat used.

As for the origins of the Bloodknives, there are easier and more natural explanations possible. There was a lot of lethal stuff made during the War of the power and the Breaking


I agree with you. They were probably just made long ago and kept in secret supply in Seanchan. So what do you think? they were made by Randlanders and the Seanchan got 'em all?

How come there aren't any of these in Randland? My guess is cause they were just a plot device Brandon came up with and there really isn't any rhyme or reason to it.
My guess is that the origin of the Bloodknife rings won't even come up in AMoL and doesn't even really matter. I was just wonderin

#5 FarShainMael

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 02:25 AM

I'm pretty sure there's a third portal, because of those three spires that Mat saw. At one point I thought that might be the Thing in the Blight.. And I recall that Tuon knew the legend of 'Old Hob's hill' but under another name (I'll try and find the ref later, have to go out shortly); which may indicate that the Seanchan have had dealings with Sindhol in the past.

As for whether the Bloodrings (to coin a word) or their origin may come up again, I have a strong feeling they may be crucial. They are made of black stone; and when blood comes in contact with them, they have an interesting effect on the wearer. Distinctly reminiscent of those 'blood on the rocks' prophecies!
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#6 herid

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:52 AM

Thanks for the link TootThatHorn, very interesting

Hey Herid,

There is no evidence that there are any Finn portals in the Seanchan.


Just because there's no evidence of portals to Seanchan doesn't mean they don't exist. There was no evidence of dreamspikes, either, at least until they were introduced by Brandon, just like the rings. Also, they could have simply been brought to Seanchan through other means. The Seanchan did spend time in Randland


without any evidence speculation is fruitless IMO. it's easy to come up with a multitude of wild theories without evidence.

Birgitte never mentions them and she would likely know if they existed. She is a HoTH who lived many lives since the breaking and talked to the other HoTH who also lived many lives.


I don't see why she'd even bring them up.

While not certain, it would be very natural. they discuss all possible ways to get into the Finn-world and what they entail when talking about Mat's proposed expedition there in TOM. If she knew of yet another way to get in she would most likely mention it.

Also, Mat doesn't locate any extra portals on the Finn side when trying to get out of their world in TOM. He was in a rather desperate situation and with his luck he would have found any extra portals if they existed.


Its just my opinion, but I highly doubt that the only portals to and from Finnland are the ones Mat used.

again, based on what evidence?

I'm pretty sure there's a third portal, because of those three spires that Mat saw.

it's an interesting point about the spires. I thought about that too after TOM but it's hard to say where exactly things are there. On the trip to Aelfinn (TSR, ch 15) Mat sees 3 spires out of a window somewhere along the way. On the second trip (TSR, ch 24) he unfortunately doesn't look out of any windows. On the last trip in TOM he looks out of a window near the point of entry and sees two spires and realizes that he must be inside the third. I'm not sure how to interpret this. My first thought was that the first doorway is in one spire, the second in another and the point of entry via the ToG is in the third. Or maybe the doorways are somewhere in between, one spire is the home of Aelfinn, the other of Eelfinn and the third is neutral with an entry from the ToG. Either way I don't see this as evidence of extra portals and I don't see where they would fit in.

At one point I thought that might be the Thing in the Blight. And I recall that Tuon knew the legend of 'Old Hob's hill' but under another name (I'll try and find the ref later, have to go out shortly); which may indicate that the Seanchan have had dealings with Sindhol in the past.

Yes, I remember that one. It's from KoD, ch 10. But she doesn't believe in it so it's clearly very old and could easily be something from the AoL or brought over by Hawkwing's armies.

As for whether the Bloodrings (to coin a word) or their origin may come up again, I have a strong feeling they may be crucial. They are made of black stone; and when blood comes in contact with them, they have an interesting effect on the wearer. Distinctly reminiscent of those 'blood on the rocks' prophecies!

That's a very interesting idea! And there are some very curious phrases associated with using the rings such as somebody's blood turning on them. They really stand out. You may have something there.

Edited by herid, 04 November 2012 - 06:59 AM.

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#7 Barid Bel Medar

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:17 AM

They work very similar to the Cour'souvra, I wonder what would happen if a Bloodring was activated at Shayol Ghul.

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#8 FarShainMael

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 08:14 AM

Mat associates 'Old Hob' (aka the Dark One) with Shandalle, the land where Hawkwing was born, so you're probably right about that's how Tuon came to hear of it.

I'd like to know how the Shadow forces know about the name Sindhol!

Re the Bloodrings (I do like that word, think I'll keep it :wink: ) there's also the point that it may be a way in which Alivia could help Rand die, by telling him how the rings work!

In TGS we learn a little about them:

These five were Bloodknives. The pure black stone ring each one wore was a specialised ter'angreal that would grant them strength and speed, and would shroud them in darkness, allowing them to blend into shadows.

The incredible abilities came at a cost, however, for the rings leached life from their hosts, killing them in a matter of days. Removing the ring would slow that process slightly, but once activated - done by touching a drop of one's own blood to the stone ring while wwearing it - the process was irreversible.


Then Gawyn learns about them in ToM:

"Bloodknives do not live long.. They are granted abilities from the Empress, may she live forever, ter'angrea rings that make them into great warriors."

"They blur their forms," Gawyn said. "When they are near shadow."

"Yes," Kaisea said, sounding surprised ythat he knew this. ""They cannot be defeated. But eventually, their own blood will kill them."

"Their own blood?"

"They are poisoned by their service. Once they are given a charge, they often will not last more than a few weeks. At most, they survive a month."


Kaisea does not say how the rings are activated. Possibly she does not know. Gawyn takes the rings from the Bloodknives who attacked Egwene, of course, but he still doesn't know how to use them.

It's been suggested that Gawyn may try to kill Rand; but if so, it won't be by using the properties of the Bloodring to approach him unnoticed. It has to be Rand's blood on the ring to kill him to fit the prophecies.

Edited by FarShainMael, 04 November 2012 - 08:14 AM.

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#9 FarShainMael

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 08:18 AM

They work very similar to the Cour'souvra, I wonder what would happen if a Bloodring was activated at Shayol Ghul.


Nice one!!
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#10 herid

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 08:25 AM

@FSM regarding the name Sindhol. That seems to be just an OT name for the Finnland used in the AoL. The suffix hol probably stands for "city" as in Aridhol. Not surprising that Moggy would know that. The dealings of the Aes Seadi with the Finns go way back.
about Alivia knowing how to use the bloodknives. I doubt that very much. She was a damane. How would she know? Marille doesn't know much about them. The only reason she even knew what they look like was because her former owner's brother used to be a bloodknife. Even Kaisea might not know and she was of the Blood.

Edited by herid, 04 November 2012 - 08:25 AM.

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#11 FarShainMael

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 08:45 AM

@FSM regarding the name Sindhol. That seems to be just an OT name for the Finnland used in the AoL. The suffix hol probably stands for "city" as in Aridhol. Not surprising that Moggy would know that. The dealings of the Aes Seadi with the Finns go way back.
about Alivia knowing how to use the bloodknives. I doubt that very much. She was a damane. How would she know? Marille doesn't know much about them. The only reason she even knew what they look like was because her former owner's brother used to be a bloodknife. Even Kaisea might not know and she was of the Blood.


Too many unknowns here, I agree.

Good point about Sindhol, yes I'd noticed the similarity with Aridhol.
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#12 herid

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 11:21 AM

@FSM I've been thinking more about this and to further support the theory that the bloodknife rings are made out of Shayol Ghul rock the effect they produce is somewhat similar to the abilities the Myrddraal have. The Myrddraal can also hide in shadows and have unnaturally quick movements.

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#13 FarShainMael

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 12:45 PM

@FSM I've been thinking more about this and to further support the theory that the bloodknife rings are made out of Shayol Ghul rock the effect they produce is somewhat similar to the abilities the Myrddraal have. The Myrddraal can also hide in shadows and have unnaturally quick movements.


Good catch!!!
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