[Regimental Book Discussion] When Did Mat become "Great"? (tEotW - aCoS) )

[Christine]

All throughout the first two books, all I thought whenever we saw Mat was "oh my god, what trouble is he going to cause now?!" He took a dagger from Shadar Logoth, blew the Horn of Valere, and went to meet the Fins... twice.

 

And even though the signs were all there (which we all later look at and say oooohhhhh), I was still convinced that Mat was going to constantly cause problems for Rand, just like I believed Perrin was a "filler character".

 

When the battle with the Shaido is about to begin at Cairhein, and Mat knows how to lead the battle, it should have been a huge clue. It took until he is trying to run away and runs into the Cairhein army, and he says something to the effect of "I'm a farm boy, a gambler, and I'm here to lead the bloody army," did it really click in that Mat was destined for something REALLY great.

 

He wasn't just a side kick anymore. He wasn't the comic relief. He was a really ta'veren. And from there, all the signs clicked.

 

And more than that, it seemed like Mat finally realized that he was destined to be great. Like all that he had been running from was ending here as he took over the group.

 

 

So, the discussion question I have for all of you is, when did Mat become "great" in your eyes, and when do you think he realized it as well?

 

The Rules:

 

(Please Note, keep all conversations A Crown of Swords or earlier.)

 

Regimental Book Discussion

 

As it is the books that brought us here, it shall be the books that keep us here! Thus, we will be participating in monthly regimental book discussions! Each month, one of the regiments will host a discussion based on the books and the Band of the Red Hand. However, every fourth month, a member of the Senior Staff will begin a discussion on the main Band boards which will encompass either a new topic, or a review of the three topics discussed by each regiment. These discussions can concentrate solely on Mat or other characters that we meet through the Band of the Red Hand, or other battle like circumstances that have effected the Band, but they must have a connection to the Band of the Red Hand in order to be considered a valid Regimental Book Discussion.

 

Rules:

-Label the discussion with the following format: [Regimental Book Discussion] Your Title/Subject Here

-Be sure to mark which books the discussion will scan - if your comment lays outside the boundaries of the books listed, please hide the content as a spoiler.

-In order to gain points in these discussions, you must post at least three thoughtful posts during the month (considered to be the 1st - 25th of each month). You can earn a maximum of 25 points per month by participating in these discussions.

-Each post can receive up to five points, depending on complexity, thoughtfulness and accuracy, for a maximum of 25 points.

-Points will be awarded by the C-G hosting the regiment with the aid of the MG/UC.

-The discussion must involve the Band of the Red Hand in the Books or be connected to the Band of the Red Hand.

-If you would like to host a Regimental Book Discussion in place of the CG of your regiment, you will be awarded 5 additional points. (CG's will receive these points as part of their staff pay)

 

[F Horn of Valere]

To me, Mat's evolution as a character goes like this:

 

1. Trickster/Plot-mover -- From the start until after leaving Tar Valon, cured of the dagger's curse

2. Brave/Trickster with hints of glory -- from his gutsy role in the fall of the Stone until leaving for Rhuidean

3. Light-hearted/Brave/Non-chalant -- From Rhuidean until Cairhein

4. Reluctant, brave, deadly leader/light-hearted only when appropriate -- From the battle in Cairhein until after we are allowed to talk about in this discussion.

 

I think that Mat began to realize his role during #3 (during the attacks by the shadow), reluctantly began to accept his role shortly after the start of #4, and had his role fully accepted (though still not wanted) by the end of the battle. I feel that changes to #4 occurred, but more towards the end of the series.

[Panchi]

First Mat suffered through the Shadar Lagoth blade. Then he is healed at Tar Valon and then his luck shows up. His night at Tar Valon was the luckiest but still then his luck hold. Further in the books, he is most of the time able to influence luck in his favour.

 

Mat's memories. The memories filled in the holes of his memory. He uses those memories even when he is unaware. And they make him a great general as shown when he was able to draw out a plan in minutes which took Aiel hours to draw.

 

Mat as leader of Band. Mat founded the Band of the Red Hand and led it to victories even when he wanted to leave at first. Band became like a family to him and he cared for it.

 

Mat is a leader but still he retains his funniness. That is the quality that makes him great. I think he became great for me at the time after founding of Band when he would look after the Band, lead them into victories yet never left gambling.

[Jeannaisais]

To me, Mat's evolution as a character goes like this:

 

1. Trickster/Plot-mover -- From the start until after leaving Tar Valon, cured of the dagger's curse

2. Brave/Trickster with hints of glory -- from his gutsy role in the fall of the Stone until leaving for Rhuidean

3. Light-hearted/Brave/Non-chalant -- From Rhuidean until Cairhein

4. Reluctant, brave, deadly leader/light-hearted only when appropriate -- From the battle in Cairhein until after we are allowed to talk about in this discussion.

 

I think that Mat began to realize his role during #3 (during the attacks by the shadow), reluctantly began to accept his role shortly after the start of #4, and had his role fully accepted (though still not wanted) by the end of the battle. I feel that changes to #4 occurred, but more towards the end of the series.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with how you have this divided out. It is definitely interesting to see how he progresses not only in his actions but also when we get glimpses into his thought process. You constantly see how he wants to fight it but his actions end up saying he doesn't want to as much as he says he does. It's fascinating.

[Basel Gill]

I first started to suspect he would be more than a second-tier piece of the ensemble when he took part in the fall of the Stone. He wasn't a great military leader or anything yet, and didn't even have troops to lead, but I could tell that he was destined for something very important.

[Panchi]

It was not until he formed the Band that his military strategist avatar came out. I almost thought at moments that he would disappear in later books but he didn't and instead his role became more and more important.

[Basel Gill]

It was not until he formed the Band that his military strategist avatar came out. I almost thought at moments that he would disappear in later books but he didn't and instead his role became more and more important.

 

His strategist thing comes out a little before this, when he is in Rand's tent in TFoH and analyzes the coming battle for Rand and Lan.

[Christine]

Basel, it did kind of come out in that he recognized it, but I doubt he would have ever truly used that knowledge until his life and the lives of the Army depended on it. I doubt he would have gone searching for it.

[WolfbrotherKronos]

I think Mat was one destined for greatness the whole time whether or not he was willing to accept it. He does some great things before the band. I particularly like it when he blew the horn. Impulsive as it was, that is part of what makes him great. He's the kind of person who sees a solution and then does it, and I think that scene shows that. Also the whole bit with the dagger...I can't say I wouldn't have succumbed to its power. His true greatness I think however shows as he gets older and gains experience he begins to realize it more. I think after he realized after he helped with the battle planning in TFoH he begins to realize that his life is about to change, but at the same time he stays true to himself.

[Panchi]

It's Mat's impulsiveness that set the path to his greatness. He is a great general because of his impulsiveness. His impulsiveness is also based on knowledge of what he knows so his decisions work in his favour.

[demonspawn]

To me, this is a bit of a difficult one as I am of the opinion that to be "Great" somebody should be widely known as being someone special or outstanding in their field. Davram Bashere, Ituralde and Gareth Bryne are known throughout Randland as being great military strategists. Mat, however is only really regarded as such by a handful of people who are in the inner circle of command close to Rand.

 

Yes, I know I am probably looking at that from the wrong perspective, but it's me...

 

So, when do I think Mat became Great? I actually think it was when he turned up at Salidar with the Band. My reasoning? Prior to that it was events driving what he was doing, whereas at this point, Mat actually is assuming a role of authority, whether willing or unwilling. This is him truly becoming a General.

[black44dog]

Greetings all.. This is my first post on dragonmount.. so go easy ;)

 

I am going through the series right now on my 3rd read through on preparation for the final book. And currently am on book three. Mat is on the boat with Thom traveling to Caemlyn. I honestly think that Mat becomes something more after he is healed of the daggers curse (obviously). For instance:

-Defeating Galad and Gawyn with his quarter-staff against their swords while being under the influence of "Healing Emptyness". We all know how amazing those two are at sword play. (yes I know that quarter-staff vs. sword isnt fair )

-Recieving all his luck and taking out the Souless?

-Defeating the briggands on the boat

 

If you look at Thoms reactions to how Mat is behaving, in regards to paying the ship captian and the fighting, I believe Mat starts his rise to greatness here.

 

[Panchi]

Mat could be serious when needed to but is funny most of the time. In that way, he is one of the most loved characters. One of the reasons that he is considered great. In being a leader he has not forgot his laughter unlike Rand or Perrin.

[WolfbrotherKronos]

Greetings all.. This is my first post on dragonmount.. so go easy ;)

 

I am going through the series right now on my 3rd read through on preparation for the final book. And currently am on book three. Mat is on the boat with Thom traveling to Caemlyn. I honestly think that Mat becomes something more after he is healed of the daggers curse (obviously). For instance:

-Defeating Galad and Gawyn with his quarter-staff against their swords while being under the influence of "Healing Emptyness". We all know how amazing those two are at sword play. (yes I know that quarter-staff vs. sword isnt fair )

-Recieving all his luck and taking out the Souless?

-Defeating the briggands on the boat

 

If you look at Thoms reactions to how Mat is behaving, in regards to paying the ship captian and the fighting, I believe Mat starts his rise to greatness here.

 

 

I had totally forgotten about the quarterstaff part - He does show many moments of greatness, many of them coming after his healing.

[beanie]

I don't think I can pinpoint a particular point at which I began to consider Mat as well great. Of course there were points that major things happened which shaped him into becoming a leader and a main force to be reckoned with, but for me it seemed that he just slowly became more and more important as the books progressed. I didn't even notice it until I was reading the part where he shows up and takes control of the army and I realized I thought it was completely normal Mat is definately one of my favorite charaters

[Davrick]

I've always like all three boys, but over the years Mat has become my favorite of the 3. I think I first started to really enjoy Mat after his trips through the doorways. I really enjoyed when he was first discovering his luck. I think my favorite Mat moments had to be when he was escaping the tower and how he defeated the gholam. (I know these are after ACoS but I felt like I needed to share anyways)

[Jeannaisais]

I've always like all three boys, but over the years Mat has become my favorite of the 3. I think I first started to really enjoy Mat after his trips through the doorways. I really enjoyed when he was first discovering his luck. I think my favorite Mat moments had to be when he was escaping the tower and how he defeated the gholam. (I know these are after ACoS but I felt like I needed to share anyways)

 

Be careful about spoilers please - that's why specific books are mentioned so those who have not read past a certain book will not be afraid of spoilers. I know that isn't a big one but still, if it's past the designated books, please post it in the spoiler!

[F Horn of Valere]

Or use the

spoiler

button!

[_CLOUD]

I've yet to do a reread so I have forgot a lot of the scenes from the older books. However I still remember a scene in one of the first books where Mat, Rand, Perin and Lan stand atop a small hill and charge against a group of Trollocs. Mat is the one who began shouting in the Old Tongue (something about defending the Rose). His steady increase in using the Old Tongue always thrilled me for I knew he would become a great and important commander by the end of the series. Using the dagger in the first book and becoming slowly evil also was very intersting to read, since I thought way back then that he would become an evil character, luckely he didnt. Him discovering his Luck also was one of my favorite moments in the book, I actually thought he was linked to the DO in some way haha. Matt has so many layers in his character and thats why hes one of the most populair ones imo. One of my favorite moments with Mat actually happen in the newer books, so I sadly can't discuss that here.

[Jeannaisais]

Or use the

spoiler

button!

 

That's what I meant to say!

[BFG]

For me Mat became "Great" during the period of the healing at the Tower - two things in particular: his fight against Galad/Gawyn and the way he left the Tower. These things cemented his personality, once free of the dagger, and it's his personality that makes him great. I think in world (or at least when in-world characters noticed), it would be at Cairhien leading the newly formed Band - formed on the Battlefield, how cool was that, or possibly just before in the tent doing the strategy.

[Roland Delovinde]

I see it much like BFG, I first started thinking of coming greatness after he beat two of the best swordsman on the training ground. For me the real start of his greatness was when he took over the fight in Cairhien and out manueverd his many enemies and won the day in astounding fasion.

[dicetosser1]

thats the book it really started in he beat the boys but then more importantly to my mind are his thoughts about Thom when he finds him in Tar valon and when thom gets sick.

 

Also when he makes his promise to save the wonder girls...this is where we first start to see a grown up Mat. He is still the same person but we start seeing another side. Then you get Rhuidean and Carhien. He takes more steps to greatness.

 

Then come Crown of Swords. this is one of my favorite books. We see mat struggle and LOSE to someone Tylin. He beat the 2 wonder girls they couldnt change him but Tylin does.

 

then come the Seanchan...

[BFG]

But how much of Mats burgeoning greatness in DR is because we see him go off on his own? We see him take care of Rand when he's sick in EotW, while he's under the influence of the dagger, volunteer to go back to save Eg in Falme when he's dying from the dagger (albeit a long, slow, drawnout death - but still, he's visibly weaker by now). He's done heroic things since Book 1, the luck he gained during the healing just helped out his success rate somewhat. The medallion allowed him to ignore AS.

 

So if he's great because he does heroic things then he's been great since Book 1. I still half-heartedly state that their isn't another character that could have managed the dagger as well, which makes him truly great in Book 1 from finding the dagger and still being able to do heroic things.

 

 

 

We see how Perrin falls apart when Faile goes missing, Rand has a lot of darkness when he realised he was the DR, all the girls/AS have sought power (not saying that's wrong, just that they've sought power - the dagger would give them power)...

 

 

[Jeannaisais]

While he may have been great for handling the dagger, he was still vulnerable enough to take the dagger in the first place after having been warned. So, i don't see dealing with the dagger as greatness, I see it as him finally accepting the consequences of his actions seriously for probably the first time in his life. I do think we see a portion of his greatness when he beats Gawyn and Gallad, but I came across something I found quite interesting in my reread of Fires of Heaven. The Aiel girl he hangs out with (Melindra...??? why'd I forget the name! ack!) constantly tells him she believes him destined for greatness, even though he is a short man lol That makes me think RJ is trying to let the reader know "hey, you know this guy is pretty cool, but this is just the tip of the iceberg peeps, wait until you see what comes next!"

 

Oh, and I would give the chapter I found that in but I'm reading it on my kindle....so it's approximatly 40% of the way into the book. It's right before they get attacked when their almost out of the Waste.