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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

How Do You Rank The Books Thus Far?


batcaver

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Lord of Chaos is my favorite book, although I think that will change soon. Rands building rage is well established in this book, as well as the entire Taim/forming of the Ashaman thing, it marked (in my oppinion) the first REAL serious thing Rand did that literally changed everything.

 

TGS is my second favorite, for evil Rand, I loved every second of it. My only dissapointment was that it only lasted half a book. "Do you believe that I could kill you?" Didnt realize I was waiting for that level of dark in him until I read it.

 

Winters Heart is my third favorite. The Cleansing was just epic, flawless except Demandreds lack of badassery in the one opportunity hes had. We saw Cyndane smash Alivia without a second thought even though Alivia was much stronger, and Demandred who is a general and used to battle and such like, runs away with his tail between his legs. Because generals dont stand on the front line. They just go to the front line and then act surprised when they realize front line type stuff happens on the front line, which Demandred obviously wasnt expecting. Even though hes a general.

 

P.S. Demandred sucks, IDST

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For those of you that are interested these are the average results so far - I've excluded NS from the list as I think only 2 or 3 people included it, I've also not included anyone that didn't rank all 13 books so far and anyone that ranked two or more books equal are sharing the rank so eg two books at 1 have rank of 1.5...

 

Here goes; the unofficial results so far:

 

1. tFoH 24.5

2. tSR 25.5

3. tGH 46.5

=4. tEotW 54

=4. LoC 54

6. tDR 58

7. tGS 72.5

8. KoD 84

9. CoS 86

10. PoD 88

11. ToM 93

12. WH 96

13. CoT 125

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I'm reading the series for the first time, so obviously I'll only rank the ones I've read.

 

1. The Fires of Heaven. No, really. I know many say the series starts to drag by this point, and I'll agree the Nynaeve plot is slow (I'm far from a Nynaeve hater, though; I actually find her hilarious, all the while wanting her to suffer terrible misfortunes). However, it easily has the most exciting Big Damn Ending of any WOT book so far, and Mat's scenes in the book are great. By the end, I could practically feel Rand's anger at Rahvin (and no, it wasn't just him screaming "RAHVIN" :rolleyes: ). Also, Rahvin blocking Nynaeve's fire with his skin entirely burned off is a fantastic mental image.

 

2. The Shadow Rising. Objectively speaking, the best Wheel of Time book. Greatest variety in view points, greatest balance between world building and action, and so on. Aviendha is insufferable in this one, but she improves substantially soon, so it's all good. Rand taking down hundreds of Trollocs remains an incredibly visual scene for me: I can see why some regard him as a walking bomb. I loved the moment of humlity as well, when he realized that he could not save the girl, and thus realized that he is no god, and that he cannot save everyone. Also, Asmodean is awesome, am curious what would have happened if he had lived.

 

3. The Dragon Reborn. Rand being the "man behind the curtain" was an interesting decision. Also, it was good seeing Mat go from being character in most need of a beating (I could not understand his popularity prior to this book) to a fun character to follow.

 

4. Tie between Eye of the World and The Great Hunt. I was not immediately enthralled by Eye of the World, but it really picked up in the second half. The Great Hunt was interesting, though I admit back then I was sort of hampered by wanting Rand to learn how to channel already (now I almost miss a powerless Rand), and wondering who the hell Selene was (it was obvious from the start she was, um, bad news).

 

5. Lord of Chaos. Pretty good, loved Lews Therin in it. And Dumai Wells. What more can I say? Perrin was actually quite awesome in this book, too, which I hear doesn't last. Ah well.

 

6. A Crown of Swords. There was a lot to like about this book. Mat is very fun to read about. Similarly, Elayne went from insufferable to quite admirable, and I really enjoyed seeing her growing to view Mat as a person. It gets major points off for its conclusion, though. I loved seeing the confrontation between Rand and Sammael, and got a kick out of seeing Rand and Ishamael fight along side one another (yes, I was spoiled that Moridin is Ishamael :()but it felt very rushed, and it seems so strange that Jordan practically wrote "FAKE OUT DEATH" in big bold letters, yet Sammael really died that way. And he was doing so well up until that point, probably the most intelligent battle plan any of the Forsaken had had up to that point. Overall, A Crown of Swords had some interesting developments, but suffered from some quite serious structural issues.

 

TGS and ToM may not be the most ground-breaking fantasy novels in the history of literature, but they are well-paced, exciting, wholesome, and don't lie to the reader. Basically, the exact opposite of RJ's work.

 

Can't remember if I asked you before but what are some of your favorite fantasy authors? What would you consider to be "ground breaking" novels?

 

RJ is good at world-building, but as far as creating novels that you would want to read again and again?

 

Interesting as the most common complaint against TGS and ToM is the rereadabilty is almost nil due to unpolished prose and the many issues that Team Jordan have owned up to. They even changed Sanderson process and pushed back the editing time to get AMoL "right". It was precisely the level of immersion one gets from RJ's writing that has led to people reading these books so many times over. The subtle foreshadowing, the little things you pick up on each time through. That is the reason why these communities exist, precisely because people do want to read them over and over again.

 

I'll throw in an obligatory recommendation for Matthew Stover. I think that he takes a "Brandon Sanderson like" style to its absolute high point in quality: direct, absolutely uncompromising, but sacrificing none of the elegant and well written prose. Reading Heroes Die is like being punched in the face (um, but in a good way). Highly suggest you check it out if you want to see the "other side" to writing a fantasy novel: IMO, the two big fields seems to be the more prosaic, detailed thing that Robert Jordan has (which suits his world perfectly, of course), and something much more direct. Of course, Heroes Die is mostly first person, which suits itself less to a highly detailed series.

 

I haven't read Sanderson's WOT books (just his originals), though I will say, wouldn't ability to foreshadow be sort of moot in the finale of a series? I know AMOL is three books, but it all seems to be "the" finale. So, while I can't comment on the execution in this particular instance, in theory at least, it seems like it might be the best move to make the final chapter in such a large epic something very fast moving and climactic. I'd argue that even Jordan does that, my most recent WOT book, ACOS, being a great example. The conclusion, Rand taking Illian, comes very quickly, in a final 35 page chapter. But it works fairly well, even if I do have a few personal criticisms in how he wrapped ACOS up.

 

Anyway, don't mean to make my first post here start an argument :) I'll have to wait and see what Brandon contributes to the series... but I will say, if it's even half as good as The Way of Kings, I'll be more than happy.

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Thanks, I'll most likely do another ranking when I finish TOM. I'm pacing myself pretty deliberately; if I've calculated right, I should finish TOM just a few days before AMOL. Of course, being my first read through, I'm kind of anxious just to rush through it all (read The Fires of Heaven and Lord of Chaos in something like 4 days each, that was a bad idea), but it will be better this way. Lots of other stuff to read, too, if I really feel that itch to rush through WOT.

 

Oh, and RJ completely sucks at writing combat scenes. Sword duels conveyed through a recitation of ridiculously-named sword forms which are never described or previously mentioned will stay with me forever. Kind of makes you wonder why he chose to write about a world entering an apocalyptic war with Pure Evil.

 

Haha, I found this sort of lazy on my read of The Great Hunt, but I've sort of grown to enjoy it, if nothing else for comic effect. It's obvious writing sword fights, or any sort of physical brawl, is not one of Robert Jordan's strengths- I think that's one reason he stopped having many of them- but he definitely makes up for it in the way he describes his magic, though.

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1. LoC, my fave, but maybe bc it was the last one out when I first started reading at 14 or 15. The black tower, Rands ascendence and capture, perrin and the wolves running to his aid, Dumai's wells. I'm sorry, but who didn't finish this book thirsting for more!

2. TDR, some faults, but Mat for the first time without the dagger, him in tar valon, him and Thom, him in tear, epic.

3. TSR

4. TGH, classic

5. TEoTW

6. TGS

7. TFoH

8. ToM

9. ACoS, much better than the credit it gets

10. KoD

11. WH

12. TPoD, this is ranked low bc I was disappointed when it first came out but on re-reads its actually pretty damn good, I like the rand seanchan attack, I had forgot about it, pretty good character progression for what's to come, RJ knew what he was doing

13. CoT

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I just reread LoC and am constantly surprised it's a favorite of so many people. I guess it's because the last third of the book is really stellar, and it is - Dumai's Wells is freaking amazing. But wow, seriously nothing happens in the first half of the book. It's incredibly slow. Before I started rereading it,almost every single thing that I remembered happening in that book happened pretty much in the last third of the book, beginning with Nynaeve healing Logain and Egwene going to Salidar. Rand meeting with the Aes Sedai and all that ensues from there, Perrin turning up, Min turning up, Mat going to Salidar...all happens after that. Before that, Rand walks around talking to Lews Therin and complaining about all the Maidens surrounding him all the time, and Nynaeve thinks about whether they should leave Salidar or not. Mat and Perrin are actually not in the first half hardly at all.

 

Anyhow, the end is truly spectacular though. I'm currently doing a ranking as I reread the books, but right now it would probably look something like this:

 

1. TSR

2. TOM

3. KOD

4. TGH

5. TDR

6. FOH

7. WH

8. TGS

9. EOTW

10. ACOS

11. LOC

12. COT

13. TPOD

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Yeah, I can agree with that. I'd argue one of RJ's weaknesses is his structuring, and it shows a bit on LOC (though not nearly as much as it does on ACoS). That said, I felt Rand's characterization in LOC was pretty solid, and it does have its share of memorable scenes: for me, that would be Nynaeve curing Logain, Alanna bonding Rand (that caught me as off-guard as it did Rand), Rand's capture (one reason the ending of LOC will likely be memorable to me is that it's the first ending that's not driven by Rand directly, but rather, by those who support him). And as of now, I actually really like Perrin, mostly due to his performance in LOC. I'll have to see how he holds up, since I hear he degrades quite a bit.

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I thought alot more people would have KOD alot higher considering its 1) the last RJ book 2) closes so many plotlines 3) logain and Rand battling the trollocs is one of the best and most badass scenes in this series and 4) this is the book where I felt like everything was just about to be ready to start setting up the last battle

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I thought alot more people would have KOD alot higher considering its 1) the last RJ book 2) closes so many plotlines 3) logain and Rand battling the trollocs is one of the best and most badass scenes in this series and 4) this is the book where I felt like everything was just about to be ready to start setting up the last battle

 

It is excellant. Very much a return to form after CoT and it shows RJ had things pointing in the right direction. Some of the best writing in the entire series as well....

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1. tGS

2. ToM

3. tSR

4. tFoH

5. tGH

6. LoC

7. WH

8. aCoS

9. PoD

10. tEotW

11. KoD

12. tDR

13. CoT

 

In an attempt to defend PoD, I'd point to the scene where Elayne unravels the gateway. I thought that was the best part of the book - Avi & Elayne had some serious bonding.

Also, CoT wasn't that bad, the two really awesome parts, I think, where when Perrin cuts of the Shaido's hand, and when Mat guns down Renna.

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Well, I'm almost done with my last full re-read, though I may do aCoS through KoD one more time. I tend to lean towards the tiered approach, but here we go.

 

Tier One: Awesome

 

1. The Shadow Rising. Easily my favorite. Great opening with the Bubbles of Evil: the Cards for Mat, Perrin's Axe, and the Mirror for Rand. Lanfear's visit, Trollocs saving Rand, LTT taking over, Rand trying to raise the dead with Callandor. The Stone Stands. Three go to Finnland. Exploration of the Sea Folk and Aiel. The Aiel history in Rhuidean. Perrin's heartbreak in the Two Rivers. Slayer. Three fantastic climaxes: Rand vs. Asmo in Rhuidean, Nyneave vs. Moggy in Tanchico during the resuce, and Perrin and Faile in the Two Rivers. And throw in Suian getting deposed at the end as well. Whew!

 

2. The Great Hunt. Flickerflicker. The trip via the Portal worlds. The depth of the world becomes apparent. Our first look inside the Tower. Mat goes hungry. Mat goes sparring. Mat goes dicing. Intrigue at Fal Dara and in Cairhein. Fain becomes a force. Siuan sets the girls on a Task. Falme was awesome, Ingtar's reveal. Sheathing the Sword. Rand's first kill. Lanfear meets Min.

=======================

 

Tier Two: Excellent

 

3. The Eye of the World. Page turner from start to finish. Weep for what has been lost. The Ways. A trip through the Blight. The Green Man. Only kept out of being top tier by the lameness of Aginor at the end.

 

4. The Fires of Heaven. Moiraine's sacrifice. Mat and Aviendha coming back to life. Mat emerging as a the leader of the Band. This Place This Day. Ripped away. Nynaeve besting Moggy again and saving Rand's bacon as a result. Rand vs. Forsaken endings getting a bit tired, and that and the girls time in Luca's show are the only things that keep this from being top tier.

 

5. Lord of Chaos. An explosion of POVs. Best single plotline climax in the series with Dumai's Wells. Kneel or you will be knelt.

====================

 

Tier Three: Very Good

 

6. Knife of Dreams. RJ proved he still had the touch. And we needed to see it. So happy that the last RJ book was so good. Faile's rescue from the Aiel. Perrin's partnership with the Seanchan. Mat/Tuon line was excellent. The Prince of the Ravens. To Make an Anchor Weep.The Golden Crane with Nyneave's excellence in putting Lan in Shienar. The House on Full Moon Street. Elayen's stupidity with the Windfinder bargain (she needs them for gateways but she and everyone else apparently forgets the Kin can link) infects three books, and keeps this one from going higher. Though the touch is light here. Still, without that, she had no reason to keep the Windfinders, and the Kin won't fight, so we can see (resolution wise) why there had to Windfinders. Without that hickup, it is higher still.

 

7. The Path of Daggers. Was afraid this would be huge Foskaen battle and end of every book. Had hope after LoC this wasn't the case. PoD reestablished this as not just Rand vs. Forsaken all the time. Didn't like it at first, but in retrospect, really a nice book. Shows the difficulty of leading for the characters. And also shows that when they go it alone (Rand vs. Seanchan), there is trouble. A recurring theme for Rand. Callandor's flaw revealed. Excellent sequences on the Seanchan battles. Cadsuane is good. Loved the Egwene parts, and a Cup of Sleep at the end. Good stuff in the Tower with Elaida & Alviarin.

 

8. The Dragon Reborn. Very good Perrin book. I loved the part when Mo lets Noam go. And the stuff in the Smithy. Him being able to sense the Darkhounds. Mat's attempt to rescue the wondergirls. Egwene's exploration of T'A'R. Still, Mat's headlong charge into the Stone and too little Rand kept it from being higher in my book.

 

9. The Gathering Storm. I loved Egwene kicking ass and Rand's decent into nearly terminal madness and despair. Verin's reveal. A Font of the Power. A few issues with Cadsuane and some jarring stuff from Mat keep it from going higher, and threatened to take it lower.

 

10. New Spring. I liked New Spring. You surrender after your dead. Loved the inside look at the testing and the Blue Ajah. Loved the Lan POVs. And the focus on Mo.Yes, it was short. Loved how Mo ran from being Queen. Loved the scene where Mo and Siuan distribute the bounty.

 

Tier Four: Good

 

11. A Crown of Swords. The Rand vs. Forsaken ending bummed it out a little for me, though there was certainly a twist this time. Liked Rand returning to Cairhein and Perrin's realization how precarious Rand's position was w/out the Aiel. Black Ajah hunting, Elaida does some good, by accident.

 

12. Winter's Heart. I liked it better than most, being an Egwene fan. The Cleansing was 10 kinds of awesome. Events in Far Madding were also very good, as was the ceremony where Elayne and Avi become first sisters. Still, Elayne's stupidity infects this book as well, though not as much as CoT. Good, but no better than that.

 

 

Tier Five: Meh

 

13. Crossroads of Twilight. The Cleansing was so momentus, everystoryline going on has to acknowledge it. By the time you get done writing that, there isn't really time for anything else. It just got too broad and had to be brought back together. Mat keeps it from being a total disaster, as do the Rebel AS chapters and Egwene's capture.

 

14. The Towers of Midnight, Kind of the reverse problelm here, so much to do, so little time. Some very good Faile/Perrin stuff. Some very good Rand/Rodel stuff around Maradon. Apples First was very good. Mat the jester was way too irritating. That letter, ugh. And there were just so many mistakes/issues that it brought it down a bit for me. Perrin saying he has to hunt down Sevanna some day. Why didn't Verin just bloody tell Egwene about Caemlyn in her detailed analysis of all the BA plots, or just bloody tell her? Or Elayne? Or give the note to someone to give to Elayne? Perrin's Neo-T'A'R was cool, but it got messed up by BA using the ter'angrea being able to channel at full strength. Bah! I could go on and on. Bloody ashes!

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I thought I replied to to this thread already, but I guess not. Anyway, rankings with some favorite scenes and brief comments.

 

1. TSR: Rhuidean, Tanchico, Goldeneyes. Too many cool things to list. A book with few if any weaknesses.

2. TFoH: The Docks, Before the Arrow, Sulin breaking her spears with the other Maidens waiting in a line to follow her, Samara, Morgase willing her way out of Caemlyn. So many fantastic moments.

3. LoC: Fire and Spirit, A Different Dance, Mat in Salidar, Rand meeting with girls from his village, and of course Dumai's Wells. This book is dense with information, holy crap.

4. TGH: The Grave is no Bar to My Call, The four month trip with the portal stone, Ingtar's redemption. A lot of really good scenes, but these three were just fantastic.

5. KoD: A lion can have no mercy, Malden, The Golden Crane, oh and a Birgitte PoV. This one showed naysayers that RJ knew what he was doing, ffs. Mat's parts were plentiful and superior.

6. tEotW: Weep for Manetheren, Dragonmount, Agelmar's story about Lan's life, the Green Man. The prologue got me interested, chapter 9 made me swallow the hook.

7. ACoS: Basically Mat and the Girls in Ebou Dar carry this one. 'You can't bloody have her' was perhaps my favorite line I read in the series. Elaida's dream always makes me chuckle, too.

8. TDR: A Hero in the Night, Egwene's Accepted test, Perrin rescuing Gaul, Perrin at the smithy in Tear. The lack of Rand as a central figure paved the way for the others to hold their own. Mat turns out to be extremely interesting.

9. WH: The Cleansing (duh), 'Rand had not disdained', The whole plot in Ebou Dar. A lot of cool things happened in this one, but likely should have been together with TPoD in one book somehow.

10. TPoD: A Time for Iron, A Cup of Sleep, Moridin playing sha'rah. We get some Seanchan PoV's and Rand's inner thoughts are fascinating. Probably should have been WH part 1 somehow.

11. CoT: Mat and Perrin did some stuff they didn't want to, but had to do. The Tale of a Doll is an utterly fantastic chapter that Brandon should read. Definitely the weakest of RJ's, should have been KoD part 1.

12. TGS: Verin's reveal, Egwene's fight against the Seanchan, and the Last that Could be Done barely kept it afloat I suppose... Mat was an utter disaster. A distinct lack of subtlety. Swing and a miss on most of this.

13. ToM: I really enjoyed Avi's trip to Rhuidean, and ToG didn't suck completely, and there were a few decent scenes scattered about. Non-ToG Mat was an utter disaster. Plot holes, T'A'R fights, Galgan and Tuon, characters disappearing... the rushed release of this turned the dog's dinner of TGS into the midden heap which is ToM. Things that needed improvement weren't.

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Guest Darkdwarf

  1. tGS - I love Rand's descent into darkness and madness, and the hard Rand meets Tam with subsequent scenes. Rand comparing himself to the Stone. Epic. Mat sucks, though.
  2. tSR - This book is some of the best writing I've ever seen. Rhuidean is beyond awesome.
  3. LoC - Rand and Lews Therin makes this book what it is. Dumai's Wells is obviously an epic climax. Also, BT is awesome!
  4. tPoD - I love the tension of Rand in this book, confronting the Seanchan, interacting with the Asha'man and talking with Lews Therin.
  5. tGH - More of a good ol' fantasy book than the others, but with a better ending than most have.
  6. tFoH - Moiraine going out with a bang. The ending with angry Rand, the battle with Rahvin and Lanfear's interactions with Rand are highpoints. The rest of the book is pretty meh, imo.
  7. KoD - Mat's storyline is beast, but Elayne is truly boring to read about. She drags down the otherwise good book.
  8. ToM - Perrin's arc was really good, as well as Ituralde's battle in Maradon. Rand was pretty good, and I understand why there wasn't more of him in the book. Still, I missed him. Also, Mat's letter was really, really badly written.
  9. tDR - Kind of a bland book with too little plot development previous to the climax. I liked Mat running around on the rooftops.
  10. WH - The Cleansing was really good, but most of the book was too slow for my taste.
  11. tEotW - Good book, but isn't really that good when compared to the rest of the series. It lacks subtlety, developed character interactions etc.
  12. aCoS - I can't even remember what's in this book...
  13. CoT - For obvious reasons.

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I notice a lot of criticisms over the last two books for lack of subtlety, but I have to say, one of my chief criticisms of the Wheel of Time series in general is lack of subtlety. Jordan has it in areas: he's utterly fantastic when it comes to foreshadowing, perhaps one of the greatest in his genre. And while I feel this is averted somewhat with the three male main characters, with the female main characters in particular you have way too many instances of them outright announcing how they feel, repeating phrases to make sure you get the point (oh how this annoys me, it's especially prevalent with Elayne), and making frequent exclamations of either outrage or revulsion.

 

Granted, these are far from book ruining problems for me (Wheel of Time does so much right that I'm willing to forgive some characterization issues), but it is high on the "annoyances" list.

 

Not trying to imply BS is subtle, though. Even in his best work, The Way of Kings, he comes off as a very straight forward author, probably more so than Robert Jordan.

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WARNING: SPOILERS AHEAD!!!!!!!! (If you don't want to know the skip!!)

 

 

1. TGS: Rand's epiphany, Egwene's spectacular defense of the White Tower, and Semirhage getting her comeupence!!!

 

2. ToM: Perrin and the wolves' viewpoint of Rand's epiphany, Perrin escaping Graendal's trap, Egwene defeating Mesaana and Nynaeve's healing of madness, and her courage after that horrid test. And finally learning what the Borderlanders were doing, Rand's amazing defense of Maradon....

 

3. TEoTW: That way cool prologue, Manetheren and Malkier's interesting pieces, that shocking lightning strike at Four Kings?? (Need to read again!!!!)

 

4. TGH: Rand's journies through the portal stones, reading that chilling prophecy from the Shadow, that amazing battle at Falme, meeting the Ogier and wondering who the heck Lanfear was!!

 

5. TDR: Mat being healed from his link to the dagger, that duel in the Warder's training grounds, that bridge battle, reading Min's viewings begin to unfold. Then there is that thrilling battle in the Stone between Rand and Ishamael (never mind about Be'lal!)

 

6. TSR: That journey into Rhuidian and watching the Aes Sedai foretelling unfold, thrilling batlle and capture of Asmodean (huh!?) and Nynaeve's amazing duel with that Spider (name to long) Gawyn leting Siuan and Leane escape, and Perrin's enthralling defense of the Two Rivers.

 

7. LoC: The vicious battle at Dumai's Wells, Egwene finally getting put in her place, (at least before sweeling her head further!) and Perrin's return after TSR.

 

8. TFoH: The battle skirmish between Sammael and Rand, Moiraine deafeating Lanfear, and the interesting battle with Rahvin and the experience of what balefire can REALLY DO. Then the infamous demise of Asmodean.

 

9. ACoS: That very difficult battle with Sammael ( at least until Shadar Logoth), Nynaeve not needing to eat lava to channell, and the gholam's first appearance.

 

10: WH: That way cool cleansing, Mat's cunning to the fore and Perrin's ... march

 

11: KoD: Amazing battle at the manor, Egwene finally ruling the roost, and Mat's ....battle with the Seanchan

 

12: PoD: That knowledge about Callandor, the bowl is used and Elayne and Birgitte ecape to Andor, and Mat's future begins.....

 

13: CoT: Finding out all that incormation of Aes Sedai and .......WHY!?!?!? WHAT FOR!?!? HOW DO THEY GET ANYTHING DONE WITH ALL THIS IN THE WAY!?!? P.S: Sorry folks, needed caps for this part,lol

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