[Regimental Book Discussion] Why did Mat create the Band?

[Jeannaisais]

This is the first thread of many discussing the various ins and outs of how the Band of the Red Hand and Matrim Cauthon play such a huge role in the WoT books. The rules are posted below in the second post of this thread for how you should conduct yourself in this discussion and what points opportunities are possible. Also, anybody should feel free to participate in this conversation regardless of whether or not you are a member of this Org.

 

For the sake of discussion, the books that can be used without placing content in a spoiler will be books 1 through 10. Any content outside of these books will not be placed in a spoiler format, unless otherwise requested by someone in the discussion.

 

The question being discussed is: Why did Mat create the Band?

[Jeannaisais]

Regimental Book Discussion

 

As it is the books that brought us here, it shall be the books that keep us here! Thus, we will be participating in monthly regimental book discussions! Each month, one of the regiments will host a discussion based on the books and the Band of the Red Hand. However, every fourth month, a member of the Senior Staff will begin a discussion on the main Band boards which will encompass either a new topic, or a review of the three topics discussed by each regiment. These discussions can concentrate solely on Mat or other characters that we meet through the Band of the Red Hand, or other battle like circumstances that have effected the Band, but they must have a connection to the Band of the Red Hand in order to be considered a valid Regimental Book Discussion.

 

Rules:

-Label the discussion with the following format: [Regimental Book Discussion] Your Title/Subject Here

-Be sure to mark which books the discussion will scan - if your comment lays outside the boundaries of the books listed, please hide the content as a spoiler.

-In order to gain points in these discussions, you must post at least three thoughtful posts during the month (considered to be the 1st - 25th of each month). You can earn a maximum of 25 points per month by participating in these discussions.

-Each post can receive up to five points, depending on complexity, thoughtfulness and accuracy, for a maximum of 25 points.

-Points will be awarded by the C-G hosting the regiment with the aid of the MG/UC.

-The discussion must involve the Band of the Red Hand in the Books or be connected to the Band of the Red Hand.

-If you would like to host a Regimental Book Discussion in place of the CG of your regiment, you will be awarded 5 additional points. (CG's will receive these points as part of their staff pay)

 

Topics to Choose From:

How to be more like Mat?

Why did Mat create the Band?

How to entertain yourself when an army on the road?

Book by book discussion of Mat's character and growth and how others affected him etc.

Mat and women

Mat and loyalty

Tuon

Mat and AS

Topics Already Discussed:

 

[Katiora]

Oooooooo yay! I'm so glad this is started!!!!!! *bounces around* and Jea you might want to put a "spoilers" tag on here... just to warn people in case people accidentally forget to put posts with spoilers in spoiler tags.....

 

and i'm not sure how to even do a spoiler tag.....

 

anyway.. I'm rereading the WOT right now and I THINK I'm about to the book that he forms it in... I'm on Fires of Heaven, and it's been a WHILE since I read them so I'm gonna have to do some research before I can fully discuss this question... lol

[Katiora]

wow... there is something funky going on... I posted that like 2 minutes ago, looked, thought it didn't post, almost had all of it retyped up and then it posted... I don't know if my computer is nuts or if it's DM or a combination thereof....... *shakes head*

[Basel Gill]

This is the first thread of many discussing the various ins and outs of how the Band of the Red Hand and Matrim Cauthon play such a huge role in the WoT books. The rules are posted below in the second post of this thread for how you should conduct yourself in this discussion and what points opportunities are possible. Also, anybody should feel free to participate in this conversation regardless of whether or not you are a member of this Org.

 

For the sake of discussion, the books that can be used without placing content in a spoiler will be books 1 through 11. Any content outside of these books will not be placed in a spoiler format, unless otherwise requested by someone in the discussion.

 

The question being discussed is: Why did Mat create the Band?

 

I'm going to start off by saying that I haven't yet read book 11. I've read 0 through 10, and I'm currently re-reading 0. Using that as your boundary seems a bit arbitrary, almost like you used random.org to choose a book number and it gave you 11. Why 11?

 

Second, I don't think it's accurate to say that Mat created the Band. More like it created itself around him. The Banders were just drawn to him out of the whole ta'veren thing. He went out of his way to avoid it, and got sucked back in anyway till he decided it was fated and just went with it. (So Mat is a Corleone... he keeps trying to get out, and they keep pulling him back in.) Once he made that decision, it was pretty much already an established fighting group, he just came up with the name.

[demonspawn]

 

I'm not even sure if he even came up with the name. I have a vague memory of him hearing the name being thrown around after someone mentioned it during the battle of Cairhien in FoH. He was busying himself with trying to get away and kept encountering random battalions/squads etc. that were heading into danger or an ambush.

These then gravitated towards him as they realised he could be their best chance of getting through the fight with the Aiel.

And it was after they won skirmish after skirmish, usually while outnumbered, that I'm sure someone started mentioning that it was like the legendary Band of the Red Hand and they adopted the name.

I'm pretty sure Mat then started saying, via internal monologue, that they were all 'Light Blinded fools/Wool brained lummoxes' for wanting to follow him... Or something like that.

 

Since I'm somewhat advancing in years me memory ain't up to scratch but I'm pretty sure that is a fair approximation of events.

 

(btw, I'm about 1/3 of the way through EOTW on my pre-AMOL, my 4th read through, and I'm still picking up on new snippets)

 

[dicetosser1]

Actually the ORIGINAL BoTRH was an old thing from Manetheren that died in the final battle that destroyed Manetheren. Mat REMEMBERS Shen an Calhar from his old memories. When the Carhien battle is over one of the Lords i think starts up with the name remembering it from histories.

 

Bas..number 11 is a pretty good guess I think because i know I would unless told otherwise assume that 90% of people on DM have read that far but realise that not everyone has finished them all due to how slowly they come out in some countries. If I remember correctly you are one that hasn't finished but the best we can do is spoiler it tho i too need to know how to do that. For clarification can everyone please state what the book number is that they have FINISHED and Jea can you just add this as a little list in you first post? If everyone reads that they can consider what they say so as to not spoil it for those who are not yet finished

 

I have finished all 13 books plus NS and the Big White book...speaking of are we allowed to use that in this discussion?

[Drawwod]

I have to agree with Dice I'd assume that most people have either read up to or including towers of midnight unless told otherwise The BoTRH just sort of formed after the Tairens and Cairhienin realise that Mat's battle luck would keep them alive and winning battles

[dicetosser1]

scratch that i looked at the wrong thread

[Basel Gill]

 

I'm not even sure if he even came up with the name. I have a vague memory of him hearing the name being thrown around after someone mentioned it during the battle of Cairhien in FoH. He was busying himself with trying to get away and kept encountering random battalions/squads etc. that were heading into danger or an ambush.

These then gravitated towards him as they realised he could be their best chance of getting through the fight with the Aiel.

And it was after they won skirmish after skirmish, usually while outnumbered, that I'm sure someone started mentioning that it was like the legendary Band of the Red Hand and they adopted the name.

I'm pretty sure Mat then started saying, via internal monologue, that they were all 'Light Blinded fools/Wool brained lummoxes' for wanting to follow him... Or something like that.

 

Since I'm somewhat advancing in years me memory ain't up to scratch but I'm pretty sure that is a fair approximation of events.

 

(btw, I'm about 1/3 of the way through EOTW on my pre-AMOL, my 4th read through, and I'm still picking up on new snippets)

 

 

We never actually see the scene when the Band gets its name, it happens offscreen. Or would it be "offpage" with a book? Mat gets asked why it got called that and says something about someone must have heard it from histories or something, but he has always struck me as evasive when he says it. I think he let slip something from his memories but doesn't wanna admit it, because he is always trying to cover up the fact that there is anything unusual about what's inside his head.

[demonspawn]

 

I'm not even sure if he even came up with the name. I have a vague memory of him hearing the name being thrown around after someone mentioned it during the battle of Cairhien in FoH. He was busying himself with trying to get away and kept encountering random battalions/squads etc. that were heading into danger or an ambush.

These then gravitated towards him as they realised he could be their best chance of getting through the fight with the Aiel.

And it was after they won skirmish after skirmish, usually while outnumbered, that I'm sure someone started mentioning that it was like the legendary Band of the Red Hand and they adopted the name.

I'm pretty sure Mat then started saying, via internal monologue, that they were all 'Light Blinded fools/Wool brained lummoxes' for wanting to follow him... Or something like that.

 

Since I'm somewhat advancing in years me memory ain't up to scratch but I'm pretty sure that is a fair approximation of events.

 

(btw, I'm about 1/3 of the way through EOTW on my pre-AMOL, my 4th read through, and I'm still picking up on new snippets)

 

 

We never actually see the scene when the Band gets its name, it happens offscreen. Or would it be "offpage" with a book? Mat gets asked why it got called that and says something about someone must have heard it from histories or something, but he has always struck me as evasive when he says it. I think he let slip something from his memories but doesn't wanna admit it, because he is always trying to cover up the fact that there is anything unusual about what's inside his head.

 

I think Mat dropping a name in, that was to be such an influential faction in the main story arc, wouldn't have just been left to be carried out offscreen/page. I'm not ruling it out I just don't think it likely. Bear in mind that a lot of the popular stories would have been about Manetheren and would include more than a story or two about the BotRH. Therefore it wouldn't be so unusual for some Lord or other to come up with the name.

 

Maybe it was whojamefella... Can't remember his name... The one that got killed by the Gholam, or was it Gollum... You know, the boisterous young Tairen Lord... I REFUSE TO BOW TO GOOGLE! I SHALL REMEMBER!!! Est... Est... Bugger! It's on the tip of me bloody tongue. I know I'll remember at 3 am and wake the house when I call out the name... Which could be embarrassing, calling a guys name out in glee in the middle of the night... OK I'll shut up and get back to work.

[demonspawn]

NALESEAN!!!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!! Who needs Google

[dicetosser1]

im betting you bowed and said "im not worthy!!1 help me mighty GOOGLE!!!"

 

 

remember there are a whole bunch of nobles in this mix and they would all have studied history and the old tongue.

[F Horn of Valere]

I'm also going through a re-read. This was a 3-4 months ago for me I think-- trudging through CoT right now, waiting for KoD to rescue me. This has already been alluded to, but Mat didn't create the Band. I wanted to "bloody" get out of Cairhein, but then those pesky Shaido got in the way. He saw some Tairens and some Cairheinins in a mess, and his strategic instincts set in and he naturally started issuing out orders to save them from imminent death from the Shaido. By the end of the battles, after he beheaded Couladin and against all odds considering the nationalities of those involved, Mat found himself as the permanent leader of a new (small) army.

[Jeannaisais]

He may not have necessarily created it...but he still allowed them to follow him as a leader and never said any differently. If he truly didn't want an army of his own, wouldn't he have denied them the ability to continue travelling with him?

 

I'm still doing a reread and I'm about halfway through Fires of Heaven so haven't quite gotten to all of that end goodness yet

[Basel Gill]

He may not have necessarily created it...but he still allowed them to follow him as a leader and never said any differently.

 

I'm not sure they would have listened to him if he had said so. They consdiered him a leader no matter what; look at how they kept calling him Lord despite his efforts to make them stop. (Just like Perrin, so I'm reading it as a ta'veren thing.)

[Alanna]

Well, I think Mat likes commanding the Band. it may not have originally been his idea, but he does know battles, and certainly after he's been with them a while, I would say he enjoys it. If he has to be involved in the Last Battle somehow, this is at least one way that he probably doesn't object to too much.

[dicetosser1]

by now i think he has largely accepted his lot and he also feels comfortable with soldiers....probably a bleed over from past lives

[Jeannaisais]

So, do you think he would have stayed with the Band if he had not been given the memories of past lives?

[Andrew the Asha'Man]

So, do you think he would have stayed with the Band if he had not been given the memories of past lives?

I think he would of left because the main reason i think stayed was because he had the skills from his memories to keep them alive. We see Mat's greatest attribute when i comes to the band. If he has the ability, he will do it.

[F Horn of Valere]

It was his memory of those past lives that convinced the Band to form around him in the first place. Without those memories, he would have moved on before the first battle-- those memories made him fix their tactical errors, making them follow him from the get-go.

[Vardar]

 

I'm not even sure if he even came up with the name. I have a vague memory of him hearing the name being thrown around after someone mentioned it during the battle of Cairhien in FoH. He was busying himself with trying to get away and kept encountering random battalions/squads etc. that were heading into danger or an ambush.

These then gravitated towards him as they realised he could be their best chance of getting through the fight with the Aiel.

And it was after they won skirmish after skirmish, usually while outnumbered, that I'm sure someone started mentioning that it was like the legendary Band of the Red Hand and they adopted the name.

I'm pretty sure Mat then started saying, via internal monologue, that they were all 'Light Blinded fools/Wool brained lummoxes' for wanting to follow him... Or something like that.

 

Since I'm somewhat advancing in years me memory ain't up to scratch but I'm pretty sure that is a fair approximation of events.

 

(btw, I'm about 1/3 of the way through EOTW on my pre-AMOL, my 4th read through, and I'm still picking up on new snippets)

 

 

We never actually see the scene when the Band gets its name, it happens offscreen. Or would it be "offpage" with a book? Mat gets asked why it got called that and says something about someone must have heard it from histories or something, but he has always struck me as evasive when he says it. I think he let slip something from his memories but doesn't wanna admit it, because he is always trying to cover up the fact that there is anything unusual about what's inside his head.

 

I think Mat dropping a name in, that was to be such an influential faction in the main story arc, wouldn't have just been left to be carried out offscreen/page. I'm not ruling it out I just don't think it likely. Bear in mind that a lot of the popular stories would have been about Manetheren and would include more than a story or two about the BotRH. Therefore it wouldn't be so unusual for some Lord or other to come up with the name.

 

Maybe it was whojamefella... Can't remember his name... The one that got killed by the Gholam, or was it Gollum... You know, the boisterous young Tairen Lord... I REFUSE TO BOW TO GOOGLE! I SHALL REMEMBER!!! Est... Est... Bugger! It's on the tip of me bloody tongue. I know I'll remember at 3 am and wake the house when I call out the name... Which could be embarrassing, calling a guys name out in glee in the middle of the night... OK I'll shut up and get back to work.

 

I'm almost to that book in my reread, but doesn't Mat mention naming the band, and thinking how appropriate it was. (One of his early memory flashbacks)

 

I think he created the band out of his innate sense of responsibility. The men he led to kill Couladin would follow him, he knew and understood that. He stepped forward into his role pretty smoothly,and while he still made pretenses at denying being a Lord, he accepted that if he didn't lead these men, they would either follow him anyway, or be led by someone else who might possibly be corrupt. The men gathered themselves, but Mat accepted them and named them.

[Katiora]

My thoughts after finishing FoH

 

 

 

 

It seems in the book that the band was mostly created by chance and happenstance and it seems the pattern mostly forced it on Mat. I know there is a discussion with Mat and Talmanes after the battle with the Shaido about them following him and Talmanes says something like(i'm at work and the book is at home" "I know you say you are not a lord in Andor, but here I say you are. I have followed men in my life because I have to, you I will follow because I want to" (remember I'm paraphrasing this) I also know that at the end of the book two different times Mat tried to sneak off and had members of the BotRH follow him and he led them straight into battles with Rahvin's men. He said it seemed that it didn't matter where he turned that every time he ran into something (thus the pattern drawing him back in) and every time, no matter the odds he won. And the entire time he wasn't trying to go and find battles, they happened as he was trying to just get away from Rand. So I would say the Pattern definitely formed the Band for Mat, not Mat formed the band.

 

As for the Naming of the Band I do believe it says that one of the young lords thought up the name when they heard of where he was from in Andor.

 

The way Mat was forced into the Band leaves me to wonder if there is more for the Band or if it was just a way of making Mat accept who and what he was and what is at his disposal.

 

 

[Jeannaisais]

I need to finish my reread of FoH....I'm about halfway through lol

 

FYI - this is considered the August dicussion but feel free to keep it going as long as you would like!! I know there's always a lot to discuss when it comes to these books!

[F Horn of Valere]

OT: Jea, you could edit in "August Discussion" as a sub-title to the thread to avoid confusion.