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#41 Nolder

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 06:21 AM

I feel like you are being overdramatic

#42 chuckievi

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 06:31 AM

Not at all, he is being accurate. I live in Iowa. We have some of the most impair waterways in the entire country. 97% of the pollution in our water is from farms, which were magically exempted from the Clean Water Act. Farmers can literally dump animal crap on their fields and have it run into a river or lake and they are exempt from penalties. My metro area draws it's water supply from a river. In order to get the water to a level that is safe to drink, we spend tens of millions of dollars a year to clean the water. Do you know who spends that money? It isn't the farmers.

#43 Nolder

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 06:52 AM

It is not accurate to say that the air is unbreathable or that I don't have access to clean water. It is not accurate to say you need a hazmat suit to swim in the Pacific ocean.

That is being dramatic. Overly so.

I appreciate that he has a point that he's trying to make but it would be so much easier to read if he simply stuck to that point and didn't try to make it seem like we live in some post apocalyptic world where humanity is on it's last leg because the Earth is an unlivable wasteland.

Edited by Nolder, 21 July 2012 - 06:53 AM.


#44 SinisterDeath

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 06:59 AM

Luck has nothing to do with it. As Colin Powell said during Iraq War I, "Luck is preparation meeting opportunity." You make your own luck by being the right position at the right time.

As for collage college, who sells us that bill of goods? Government! Why? So they can train more doe-eyed liberals.


Today, unless you're exceptional, you'll never see the type of success that's instilled in all children as what can be accomplished if only you work hard enough.


And yet if you are exceptional, you are punished, demonized, and told that your accomplishments mean nothing by the freaking President of the United States.


How is this different, from the hard working, people that made those exceptional people rich, different when they demonize, punish, and tell them there accomplishments are nothing?

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#45 Evoke

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 07:30 AM

It is not accurate to say that the air is unbreathable or that I don't have access to clean water. It is not accurate to say you need a hazmat suit to swim in the Pacific ocean.

That is being dramatic. Overly so.

I appreciate that he has a point that he's trying to make but it would be so much easier to read if he simply stuck to that point and didn't try to make it seem like we live in some post apocalyptic world where humanity is on it's last leg because the Earth is an unlivable wasteland.


Right, because it's easier to argue semantics than it is to discuss the problem.

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#46 Nolder

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 07:35 AM

Right, because it's easier to argue semantics than it is to discuss the problem.

I think misrepresentation is a problem

#47 Evoke

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 07:39 AM


Right, because it's easier to argue semantics than it is to discuss the problem.

I think misrepresentation is a problem


Not really, when I'll take it on faith when told by a marine biologist to stay out of the water. My point isn't that it's like this everywhere. My point is that we allow this to happen anywhere. You say that we don't live in a post-apocalyptic dystopia. You need to research what kind of world we're really leaving behind. We don't need a world as dramatically represented as those in Blade Runner before we realize that destroying true value - as in clean water and air - for profit is no way to live.

People live the repercussions of this kind of activity daily. Children are born disfigured and sick. Most of what ails us can be correlated to the chemicals we poison ourselves with, and that we let ourselves be poisoned with. The Pacific Garbage Vortex stretches for hundreds of thousands of square kilometers. Plastic and chemical sludge mixed with whatever else gets pulled in by the gyre. The world fish populations have been decimated. In a few decades, there will be no more fish.

You think the air is fine in Los Angeles? You do yourself a disservice believing such lies.

If as much Corporate Media attention was directed at the type of externalities corporations are allowed to get away with, as is placed on manufactured celebrities and sensationalistic journalism, maybe you'd see how fundamentally wrong this is.

Edited by Evoke, 21 July 2012 - 08:33 AM.

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#48 Ironeyes

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 09:48 AM

How did we go from Obama's insults to arguing about environmentalism?
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#49 Evoke

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 10:12 AM

How did we go from Obama's insults to arguing about environmentalism?


I based my first post on OP's quote from Rand's book.

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#50 Nolder

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 02:54 PM

In a few decades, there will be no more fish.

I'm done with this conversation. Talk about believing lies. :rolleyes:

#51 Blackhoof

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 03:13 PM

It's called over-fishing nol.

Evoke exaggerates but he exaggerates the truth. The truth is still the truth, regardless of exaggeration.
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#52 Nolder

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 03:20 PM

I'm aware there is an overfishing problem but that does not extend to all populations of fish, both in salt water and fresh water, and to believe that there will be no more fish in 20 years is a gross exaggeration and over dramatization of the real issues. It's absolutely ridiculous and I don't know how anyone can take him seriously.

#53 Nolder

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 03:23 PM

You think the air is fine in Los Angeles? You do yourself a disservice believing such lies.

This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about btw. Here's your lies.

ftp://ftp.aqmd.gov/pub/globalist/FcstMsg.pdf

#54 Evoke

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 04:12 PM


You think the air is fine in Los Angeles? You do yourself a disservice believing such lies.

This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about btw. Here's your lies.

ftp://ftp.aqmd.gov/pub/globalist/FcstMsg.pdf


Sure, Los Angeles' air is cleaner than it's been in a dozen years. So what? It's by no means clean, and suggesting that it is is folly. As someone who has lived in many places, the air quality in Los Angeles sucks.

As for the fishing - Check out End of the Line, should give you a better understanding of the situation. 2052

I still don't see why you make an effort to defend multinational corporations. They don't have your best interest at heart. They're legally required to put the shareholders quarterly ahead of everything else. It's a drop in a bucket compared to the LIBOR scandal, but do you really think people who will hide away $21 trillion in tax haves have anything in common with you?

What I describe - and you consider to be exaggerations - is a more rational depiction of the big picture than what the Corporate Media would give you. Their purpose is to create an undiscerning world view in the public so that they can continue to destroy true wealth in the name of profits.

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#55 Nolder

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 05:46 AM

Sure, Los Angeles' air is cleaner than it's been in a dozen years. So what?

So you lied and said the air is unbreathable.

It's by no means clean, and suggesting that it is is folly. As someone who has lived in many places, the air quality in Los Angeles sucks.

The air quality is fine.

As for the fishing - Check out End of the Line, should give you a better understanding of the situation. 2052

Was it funded by Al Gore? Michael Moore? I'm just trying to get a good idea of who's agenda this is.
Btw it's 2012, 20 years from now it will be 2032 not 2052.

I still don't see why you make an effort to defend multinational corporations. They don't have your best interest at heart. They're legally required to put the shareholders quarterly ahead of everything else. It's a drop in a bucket compared to the LIBOR scandal, but do you really think people who will hide away $21 trillion in tax haves have anything in common with you?

I'm not defending them. They hold no interest to me in this conversation.

What I describe - and you consider to be exaggerations - is a more rational depiction of the big picture than what the Corporate Media would give you. Their purpose is to create an undiscerning world view in the public so that they can continue to destroy true wealth in the name of profits.

What you describe is equivalent to sensationalist media.
You only care about facts if they support your own view otherwise they are ignored and discarded.
You are basically a tabloid.

I know I said this before but I truly mean it this time. I am done with this conversation because there is no real conversing with people like you. No hard feelings though, have a good day.

#56 SinisterDeath

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 05:59 AM

You only care about facts if they support your own view otherwise they are ignored and discarded.

pot calling the kettle black?

So you lied and said the air is unbreathable.

Don't take that litterally? He already said about the water quality, people swim in it, they don't turn up dead. But he wouldn't go in it, without a hazmat suit, knowing whats in it.

Besides, air quality wise..
The very first time I went to the city of Minneapolis (Small, and cleaner air than most big cities) My lungs were on fire from that good air quality. Seriously, how fun is it to have your first memory of going to the big city and associating it with burning lungs?
I an only imagine what L.A's would do to mine.

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#57 Aiyen kin Leary

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 11:05 AM

There's not much point in arguing over LA's air quality. We can all agree that it's polluted-whether you care to label the levels of pollution "horrible" or "not that bad" is meaningless. Everyone agrees that it would be better for the air to be cleaner, the real question is how to make that happen, and what prices we are willing to pay to achieve it. As for "destroying true wealth in the name of profits", that's just an overdramatic way to say "producing goods and services at a cost to the environment". The cost is real, and should not be ignored. At the same time though, the benefits are real. Mindlessly demonizing anyone who dares to run a buisiness with environmental costs is as foolish and one-sided as assuming there are no costs to the Earth and exploiting the planet as much as possible. There can be plenty of legitimate debate over the appropriate balance between environmental preservation and economic growth, but it is a balancing act, not a simple case of evil buisinesses. Unless you'd like to try living without anything that was made with a cost to the environment?
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#58 SamVimes

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 06:40 AM

All of these guys are clever, They've created a business in which they take natural resources and they make a personal profit. But what about all the costs this brings to the rest of us? Our air isn't fit to breathe. You can't drink the water any more - it has to be bottled in. These are all externalities for which the businessman takes no responsibility.



Funny, I breathe fine and drink the tap water. I still seem to be doing quite well.

I call BS on this Captain Planet junk. Nobody sipports pollution, but likewise we shouldn't drop a 500 pound bomb on a house to kill a fly. This is shown by how the environmentalist wackos will stop needed construction projects and kill thousands of jobs to save a single spotted owl or stop a much needed oil pipline because something might inbalance a grassland.

A business owner does not go into business thinking "I can employ 50 people, woohoo!" he/she goes into business thinking "I can make greqt profits, woohoo!" To think otherwise means he/she will not be in business long.
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#59 Evoke

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 07:15 AM

*facepalm*

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#60 SamVimes

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 07:36 AM

Truth hurts, Evoke. Yes I know.

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