A Game of Thrones - Mafia by Darthe and Ithillian - Game Over, Mafia Wins!

[Arez Al'Loke]

I haven't cried anything

 

And I'm not Omgusing anyone. It's not a valid tactic. Unless there is a wierd reason why someone is voting me.

I'd like to add that it's very easy to act all high and mighty after a deed has been done Andrew.

[Darthe]

The cold grew in their bodies with the slow promise of death on their journey North. Two had died in the night, found frozen in their sleep come morning because they considered the chill to be less than significant. The man knew it to be otherwise. The Targaryen family had always bathed in fire and feared the cold but they were all but gone. A gust wrapped around him, caressed him as he took his next step with the new Lord at his side. The sound of hoof and boot trampling snow and muck was the only noise that offset the wind in this abyssal place yet they continued. They must. the man looked back, his hair flowing around his head to bow to the will of the wind, and examined the serpentine caravan stretched behind them. It was ragged but purposeful, filled with hard men. Any would say so. He worried that they were not hard enough. Ahead the peak of a tower could be barely seen over the crest of the next hill. Somewhere out in the forest a howl rose to meet winter's first breath.

[bgrishinko]

I'm not surprised I'm getting some heat, since I was the one who arguably pushed hardest for his lynch yesterday. But I really don't know how anyone can say I've been "scummy all game". I've given reasons and justifications for all my actions, and continuously tried to get town back on the right track and actually scumhunt. The person I had 2nd on my "ping" list ended up flipping scum, and my casing could have been part of the reason the vig shot at him in the first place.

 

Not only do I feel very strongly that my actions the whole game have shown me to be town, but (1.) I'm also very suspicious of those trying to drive my lynch right now. BG stated yesterday that he could understand (2.) why I was voting EP, just that he didn't agree. He buddies up with Mynd in a subtle way, and the both of them (3.) start winding the town up into setup talk wifom. Then, after saying he saw why I was voting EP yesterday (4.) he says I've looked scummy all game?

 

[...]

 

Either way, I'm gonna vote BG because there's a lot more evidence against him atm. His subtle buddying up to Mynd (oooh and I just thought about this, remember Mynd calling BG out specifically during Day 1 for inactivity? Hrmmmmm...), his scummy setup talk, and (5.) his flip flopping on diff people all look extremely scummy to me atm.

 

That being said, Tress and TMD are climbing up my ping list, and while atm I generally feel Arez to be town, I think his play is def hurting town right now

 

 

Let me address each bolded statement in order:

 

1. So OMGUS then? 3 people are voting for you and conveniently you suspect all three of them at the top of your list.

 

2. That's true. However remember how I immediately followed up that statement saying that I didn't like how you called the Mod a "bastard mod" if EP was town? Remember my argument that you were tunnel visioned and pushing the Ned Stark lynch all bloody day?

 

EP has this habit of role revealing and releasing info pretty quickly when town. More so than others. He tends to get the info out there and let it be used rather than waiting on near lynch to do it so I'm willing to let his claims play out for a while. My biggest pause about his claims are the vanilla and role change stuff. I can totally understand why Despo thinks it's total BS. There's a lot happening to one guy and it does seem like it could be a flail. But he's given so many routes for himself to be proven wrong quite easily, I don't see the harm in seeing what he does.

 

Also, my first thought about the Iron Throne thing was that it is some sort of silent vote that doesn't appear till the end of the day. Like, someone could have sent in the silent vote at L-5, we see it as L-5 still but in reality it is L-4 until the lynch is secured and it shows up at the end of the train. That would explain EP's vote being the hammer vote. Also, it seems a lot simpler an explanation to me than EP having both a mysterious midnight moving vote AND an Iron Throne vote as scum. Just sayin.

 

Also I don't like Despo continually mentioning how it could be a "bastard Mod" move etc. etc. That just gives the impression that either you are right or this game is totally unfair which I think IS tunnel-vision when you don't know all the possible roles out there. It feels a tidbit manipulative to try and use this as an arguement.

 

 

3. Seriously Despo, what was actually scummy about setup talk? People talk about it every game and I'd be stupid not to look at the fact that the throne actually talks to us occasionally and try and derive some info from that. But in order to do that, I gotta figure out where the throne fits into the game. And what was WIFOM about it? Name one WIFOMY thing that came from that. We were still scum hunting and trying to find who was the most suspicious, no?

 

4. Never happened. Thanks for saying it did though in an attempt to make it look like I've tunneled on you somehow... also this is the 2nd time you mentioned that I've said you looked scummy all game IN THE SAME POST. Please do not put words in my mouth. I made a case on you which you did nothing to address and instead just shot back more slander.

 

5. Aaand Flip flopping. When and where did I do this? I voted and unvoted Nightstrike early on after he gave good reasoning for the questions I had. Please show me any other flip flopping.

 

Despo, you are assigning scummy things to me that I never did. You aren't addressing the issues I made about you. I already addressed the accusations you are making towards me. You drove the lynch on EP without listening to reason or anything he had to say to defend himself.

[Lenlo]

Easy to act high and mighty eh Arez? You mean after Mynd was proven to be scum and you were 100% sure EP was scum?

 

Also I'd like to point out that everything is a valid strategy Arez, whether you approve of it or not.

 

 

Hoof, thank you for playing along my silly idea. Arez and TMD huh? I can see TMD but Arez just looks like a flailing townie to me right now.

 

Vote TMD

[Turin Turambar]

I am out all day today. Long trip to desert. I can only say that so far I say I haven't found tyrion. Tress is not him. I think I might have a hint on him and hope to find Jim tonight.

 

Henc. Aliens.

[Ithillian Turambar]

Jim? And Aliens?

 

 

Gotta love touch screen keyboards.

 

:blackberry:

[Tiinker]

Love the way you guys are keeping this organized. So nice ^^. Darthe can we change the deadline? I'm really tied up the next 2-3 days and it seems a few others are too.

[Ithillian Turambar]

He has changed it to the 5th now :)

[Razen]

I still think that Tina (& Turin) are scum. And she says that she can understand why I see it that way, which just makes me that much more comfortable in my vote. I don't understand what people see in TMD, because in my opinion, the only reason people are voting for him is inactivity - which is a scummy thing to do when his flip wouldn't give us much info. Sure, it'd be nice if he was scum, but how does his flip give insight on anyone else? What about cases on BG, Despo, or my own (for lack of a better word) on Tina? All of which would reveal solid information that would be helpful to us townies if acted upon. I get the feeling that people are trying to get the easy lynch, rather than the informative lynch at this stage of the game. And that makes me suspicious - because scum like to push for easy lynches so they don't have to actually provide much reasoning, lessening the chance of scum slips.

[Songstress]

Jim? And Aliens?

 

 

Gotta love touch screen keyboards.

 

:blackberry:

 

Ithi wins. That is all.

[Ithillian Turambar]

Official Vote Count:

 

BG (2): Alanna, Despo

 

Despo(3): BG, TMD, Basel

 

TinaHel (1): Razen

 

TMD (5): Peace, Hoofie, Arez-2, Len

 

 

Not voting (8): andrewlee, Jack_D, RandA lThor, Sakaea, songstress, Tiinker, TinaHel, Turin Turambar

 

 

 

With 18 alive it takes 10 to lynch

 

Here is your new countdown timer:

http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20120705T23&p0=745&msg=Night

 

 

Mirror Mirror on the wall, who is the spammiest Mod of all?

 

[hazelkrs1]

My responses in blue:

 

I'm not surprised I'm getting some heat, since I was the one who arguably pushed hardest for his lynch yesterday. But I really don't know how anyone can say I've been "scummy all game". I've given reasons and justifications for all my actions, and continuously tried to get town back on the right track and actually scumhunt. The person I had 2nd on my "ping" list ended up flipping scum, and my casing could have been part of the reason the vig shot at him in the first place.

 

Not only do I feel very strongly that my actions the whole game have shown me to be town, but (1.) I'm also very suspicious of those trying to drive my lynch right now. BG stated yesterday that he could understand (2.) why I was voting EP, just that he didn't agree. He buddies up with Mynd in a subtle way, and the both of them (3.) start winding the town up into setup talk wifom. Then, after saying he saw why I was voting EP yesterday (4.) he says I've looked scummy all game?

 

[...]

 

Either way, I'm gonna vote BG because there's a lot more evidence against him atm. His subtle buddying up to Mynd (oooh and I just thought about this, remember Mynd calling BG out specifically during Day 1 for inactivity? Hrmmmmm...), his scummy setup talk, and (5.) his flip flopping on diff people all look extremely scummy to me atm.

 

That being said, Tress and TMD are climbing up my ping list, and while atm I generally feel Arez to be town, I think his play is def hurting town right now

 

 

Let me address each bolded statement in order:

 

1. So OMGUS then? 3 people are voting for you and conveniently you suspect all three of them at the top of your list.

 

I never said that you three were at the top of my list. I do think however, that the scum team is trying to pursue what they think of as an easy lynch on me. I already suspected you and had cased you before this BG. You were on my list well before you voted for me, or before Mynd flipped scum.

 

2. That's true. However remember how I immediately followed up that statement saying that I didn't like how you called the Mod a "bastard mod" if EP was town? Remember my argument that you were tunnel visioned and pushing the Ned Stark lynch all bloody day?

 

The way EP was describing it it just seemed way too unbelievable. Like I said, if he had gotten his story straight first, and gotten it all out there at once, it woulda been one thing. But every time I read another post of his it seemed to be going further and further out on a limb, and seemed like he was in desperation mode.

 

And going by what EP said, if he was targeted by the same VC'er twice, only the second time it was allowed to change his vote without him being online, it really seemed like an unfair move by the mod, if that's what had happened. As of this point, given EP's alignment, I'm actually thinking there might be two vote manipulation roles out there, possibly more. One could be a VC, the other one a votestealer. Mebbe EP just messed up in thinking he was targeted by the same VC.

 

And I thought that either he was lying and wasn't Ned, or that he had poss been recruited, because going off of everything I had seen from him that day he was pinging harder to me than anyone else.

 

EP has this habit of role revealing and releasing info pretty quickly when town. More so than others. He tends to get the info out there and let it be used rather than waiting on near lynch to do it so I'm willing to let his claims play out for a while. My biggest pause about his claims are the vanilla and role change stuff. I can totally understand why Despo thinks it's total BS. There's a lot happening to one guy and it does seem like it could be a flail. But he's given so many routes for himself to be proven wrong quite easily, I don't see the harm in seeing what he does.

 

Also, my first thought about the Iron Throne thing was that it is some sort of silent vote that doesn't appear till the end of the day. Like, someone could have sent in the silent vote at L-5, we see it as L-5 still but in reality it is L-4 until the lynch is secured and it shows up at the end of the train. That would explain EP's vote being the hammer vote. Also, it seems a lot simpler an explanation to me than EP having both a mysterious midnight moving vote AND an Iron Throne vote as scum. Just sayin.

 

Also I don't like Despo continually mentioning how it could be a "bastard Mod" move etc. etc. That just gives the impression that either you are right or this game is totally unfair which I think IS tunnel-vision when you don't know all the possible roles out there. It feels a tidbit manipulative to try and use this as an arguement.

 

 

3. Seriously Despo, what was actually scummy about setup talk? People talk about it every game and I'd be stupid not to look at the fact that the throne actually talks to us occasionally and try and derive some info from that. But in order to do that, I gotta figure out where the throne fits into the game. And what was WIFOM about it? Name one WIFOMY thing that came from that. We were still scum hunting and trying to find who was the most suspicious, no?

 

The key is timing. After a few days, when you have enough reveals/investigations/mod posts/flavor scenes, setup talk is completely acceptable, and sometimes necessary in finding out how to truly achieve victory for the town. Your Earthbound game for instance, had a unique end-game mechanic that required careful deliberation. DPR's Dark Monocle game comes to mind as well.

 

But that same kind of talk, of conjecture, early in a game, when very little info has yet been revealed, only hurts the town. Period. You should know this BG. Scum use early setup talk to both distract town from scumhunting, and sow little seeds of wifom that can be used late in the game to try and influence someone to vote the wrong way at a crucial moment.

 

I'm sure you realize, after playing many a mafia game on DM, that the town's ability to find scum throughout the game depends a GREAT amount on the scumhunting and activity that goes on early in the game. Crappy, spam filled Day 1's usually result in messy games for town altogether. Active and aggressive day 1's and 2's lead to a more engaged town that also have a lot more opportunities to find scum, due to the general activity of the thread. That's why scum's job is to try and fluster town the first couple of days.

 

And I mean, you have to consider who your partner in crime was, with the whole setup talk. Once Mynd flipped scum, and I went back and reread yall's little back and forth, it seemed eerily like you were laying the tracks, and he was running away with it. It's also happened in so many other games it's not even funny. You've done it yourself, man.

 

4. Never happened. Thanks for saying it did though in an attempt to make it look like I've tunneled on you somehow... also this is the 2nd time you mentioned that I've said you looked scummy all game IN THE SAME POST. Please do not put words in my mouth. I made a case on you which you did nothing to address and instead just shot back more slander.

 

After seeing this, I went back and checked to make sure, because I had gotten that same type of feeling from your post:

 

Well, my ideas of basing who's who on PM wording seemed to be way off. It is now apparent that scum have at least somewhat similar wording in some regards. I believe we have a typical mafia team now, though I still think the Throne is something that can be obtained and held by either side, for good or for bad. Also, is it not obvious to anyone else that Ithi and Darthe are the assistants to the King/Throne that are mentioned?

 

I agree with Razen and others that those final swoop in EP votes deserve some serious consideration, but I hadn't been paying a whole lot of attention to those folks honestly and I'd need to re-read. All 4 or so of them can't all be scum. Songstress in particular tends to be really talkative and very helpful as town, but very lurky and "busy in RL" as scum.

 

I still think that Despo is scum honestly. His accusations of EP flailing over and over failed to address the arguements that EP made to defend himself and he knowingly pushed a lynch on Ned Stark. I think Mynd distanced himself from Despo and buddied up to EP hoping to gain some favor in towns eyes should Despo flip scum or EP flip town, either way it helps his cause. Also he did drop Despo pretty early on for Arez which speaks to me as further evidence of distancing. Also, I happen to know that at least 2 people targeted me last night and I'd very much like to know why.

 

Vote Despo

 

Bold mine. I think I confused you with a couple of other people who had thrown out at me (a few people even mentioned it but didn't vote for me, perhaps trying to start a train without looking like it), when you said the "I still think that Despo is scum" part. My bad.

 

It does feel like I'm being set up tho, that Mynd knew from the beginning that if he defended EP hardcore like he did, it would make me look like scum when EP flipped town, and he could secure a quick lynch on me the next day.

 

5. Aaand Flip flopping. When and where did I do this? I voted and unvoted Nightstrike early on after he gave good reasoning for the questions I had. Please show me any other flip flopping.

 

In regards to me, when you went from somewhat agreeing with me that EP's story seemed a bit sketchy to then saying I had tunnel vision, and also more recently you flip flopped somewhat in your responses to Arez, Then you flip flopped on something you had been going on about with Mynd, something about the wording of role pm's indicating certain win conditions or something.

 

Despo, you are assigning scummy things to me that I never did. You aren't addressing the issues I made about you. I already addressed the accusations you are making towards me. You drove the lynch on EP without listening to reason or anything he had to say to defend himself.

 

You've responded to every accusation I've made at you? My case on you was essentially built on 2 things: setup talk, and your connection to Mynd.

 

You barely responded to the setup talk argument, basically trying to make it seem like you have no idea how setup talk can be considered scummy. You know BG, like I said I've seen you use such opportunities in the past when scum to generate wifom.

 

And you've tried glossing over the Mynd part entirely, it's like you want to make Town forget that it ever happened.

 

And btw, I listened to EP. That was the problem. He was coming off as uberscummy to me. He was using classic scum strats. "Wait just give me one more day....," I'm not going to apologize for pursuing someone I think is scum.

 

What issues have you raised to me that I have not addressed?

 

Cause I got another one for you that I hadn't asked yet. Earlier in the game, you asked Peace if he was king. At the time Peace just shrugged it off and denied it. But it occurred to me, if the mafia team either control the Iron Throne or seek to control it, it seems they would want to eliminate any other claims for the throne. Why would you call attention to it if someone DID hint at being a king? Just doesn't seem like a town move to me.

[hazelkrs1]

I still think that Tina (& Turin) are scum. And she says that she can understand why I see it that way, which just makes me that much more comfortable in my vote. I don't understand what people see in TMD, because in my opinion, the only reason people are voting for him is inactivity - which is a scummy thing to do when his flip wouldn't give us much info. Sure, it'd be nice if he was scum, but how does his flip give insight on anyone else? What about cases on BG, Despo, or my own (for lack of a better word) on Tina? All of which would reveal solid information that would be helpful to us townies if acted upon. I get the feeling that people are trying to get the easy lynch, rather than the informative lynch at this stage of the game. And that makes me suspicious - because scum like to push for easy lynches so they don't have to actually provide much reasoning, lessening the chance of scum slips.

 

How would a Tina lynch be more informative of a lynch than any other today? Even tho she's pinged me somewhat, the case on her looks smaller than others

[bgrishinko]

Fair arguments Desp. When I said I addressed the arguments you made about me, I had. Previous to your casings. Probably not as well as you would have wanted though, so I'll expound a little more.

 

Setup Talk:

Setup talk I already explained that I think it is important to understand and gain as much info as possible. Whether Day 1, 2 or 7. Talking about it early on when it directly resulted in the odd ending to Day 1 is justified. Especially when the Iron Throne can vote as an independent person. Also I haven't seen it acting in a particularly town manner, therefore it would be nice to dethrone the King if they are scum. That's also why I wanted to see if Peace would admit to being King. But in retrospect, I guess whoever is King probably won't admit to it anyway.

 

The Mynd thing I didn't gloss over, I just fessed up to being wrong in my opinion of him and left it at that because I didn't think there was much more to say. He seemed like he was playing a fairly town game to me at the time and his points made sense to me, and in fact he WAS playing a town game for whatever purpose he had in mind to save himself. There were certain wordings he used that were also in my PM that made me trust him. He fooled me, fair and square. I already discussed this earlier, but to less extent.

 

This explanation probably isn't satisfactory to you, but it is the truth. If you have any other concerns I'd be more than happy to respond to them. However currently, you don't trust me and I don't trust you, therefore we both see each other as manipulative.

[hazelkrs1]

Let's just leave the setup talk issue alone for now. I have a feeling getting into a log protracted discussion about that will do more harm than good for now.

 

As for your response in regards to Peace, we'll see. Honestly I thought he hinted a diff character much earlier, which made me more wary of you at the time, but since his claim I've had to rethink my position on that point. And I do believe his claim, it wouldn't make any sense to claim such a character with no pressure at all. Not only that, but it seems to me that it might be a good idea to keep someone known as "Kingslayer" in this game, in case we need to take out a pesky brat king or something.

 

Coming to Mynd tho, I'm not so ready to let that dog lay. So you say you were just simply wrong about Mynd's alignment, he had you fooled. How is it okay for you to be wrong, but I can't be wrong about EP's alignment. You said it yourself, you could see how I would think his whole stance questionable. Then we he started squirming after just a little bit of pressure, I thought I was onto something.

 

I think it's better to go after who you think is scum, and mess up and get a townie lynched, than to be fooled by scum, and possibly help them carry out their plans.

[hazelkrs1]

Should be *Then when he started squirming*

 

Gah Can't spell too sleepy. Night everyone, see yall tonight

[peacesells]

UNVOTE TMD

 

VOTE SONGSTRESS.

 

Guys..my TMD vote was an obvious policy vote. Actually the dude should be replaced. If he isn't gonna pay attention and participate he is insulting the rest of those who do.

[peacesells]

Let's just leave the setup talk issue alone for now. I have a feeling getting into a log protracted discussion about that will do more harm than good for now.

 

As for your response in regards to Peace, we'll see. Honestly I thought he hinted a diff character much earlier, which made me more wary of you at the time, but since his claim I've had to rethink my position on that point. And I do believe his claim, it wouldn't make any sense to claim such a character with no pressure at all. Not only that, but it seems to me that it might be a good idea to keep someone known as "Kingslayer" in this game, in case we need to take out a pesky brat king or something.

 

Coming to Mynd tho, I'm not so ready to let that dog lay. So you say you were just simply wrong about Mynd's alignment, he had you fooled. How is it okay for you to be wrong, but I can't be wrong about EP's alignment. You said it yourself, you could see how I would think his whole stance questionable. Then we he started squirming after just a little bit of pressure, I thought I was onto something.

 

I think it's better to go after who you think is scum, and mess up and get a townie lynched, than to be fooled by scum, and possibly help them carry out their plans.

 

Easy answer to that one. MYND WASN'T CLAIMING COP!

[Sakaea]

Jim? And Aliens? Gotta love touch screen keyboards. :blackberry:

 

That is one of my favorite pics ever. Ithi wins by a mile.

 

 

I still have the feeling that TMD is active on a QT, hence why he hasn't been replaced.

peace, why exactly did you vote Songstress when she's not even voting for TMD...or at all for that matter?

[peacesells]

Jim? And Aliens? Gotta love touch screen keyboards. :blackberry:

 

That is one of my favorite pics ever. Ithi wins by a mile.

 

 

I still have the feeling that TMD is active on a QT, hence why he hasn't been replaced.

peace, why exactly did you vote Songstress when she's not even voting for TMD...or at all for that matter?

 

Tress is where I had my vote before being annoyed at TMD and voting him. I cased her at the beginning of the day. You don't remember?

[peacesells]

 

I still have the feeling that TMD is active on a QT, hence why he hasn't been replaced.

 

 

This is interesting. I read the QT for your FF game and I saw that you allowed this behavior if they let you know..then you eventually replaced them. Could be a tactic I guess.

[Sakaea]

Yes I do remember, I just wanted to know if that was it.

 

Yeah, it is a tactic, and one I don't like. I replaced them because they weren't that active on the QT either, and the game was dying a bit.

[AndrewLee]

VOTE DESPO

 

You are obviously scum.

[Arez Al'Loke]

Did he get Vote-controlled?

[peacesells]

VOTE DESPO

 

You are obviously scum.

 

What is obvious about him being scum?