Perrin Aybara: The character

[Maleshub]

But I don't think that was 'going against the DR'. It was telling your friend you think he's doing something wrong, and it doesn't take any special effort or courage. 'Going against him' would be saying so in public and getting into a fight.

 

A confrontation doesn't have to be in public. It could be a confrontation even if only the two were present. Perrin's words were challenging Rand, who was wise enough to take it in stride and not turn it into a conflict.

 

In any case, the issue was that Perrin was so concerned about women prisoners and their treatment that he challenged Rand and put down his foot with "I won't let them be hurt;" while later he handed the Seanchan more than 200 women for a lifetime of slavery and degrading treatment as beasts and animals.

 

Compare that with Rand's meeting with Tuon where he refused to budge on allowing the Seanchan to leash more women; and with Mat's actions freeing Sea Folk windfinders and rescuring Aes Sedai from the Lion's Den.

[yoniy0]

Of course it can be a confrontation in private. I just don't think this was.

 

Regardless, for all that Perrin said about the captive AS, he did nothing about the treatment the Aiel gave them. They were Da'tsang; that surly constitutes being hurt.

[Maleshub]

Here is the text of this "encounter" between Perrin and Rand:

 

"Rand, the Aes Sedai ... " A smart man would let this lie, probably. He had never claimed to be particularly smart, though. "The Wise Ones are ready to skin them alive, or near enough. You can't let them be harmed, Rand." In the corridor, Sulin turned to study him through the doorway.

 

The man he thought he knew laughed, a wheezing sound. "We all have to take risks," He repeated.

 

"I won't let them be hurt, Rand."

 

Cold blue eyes met his gaze. "You won't let it?"

 

"I won't," Perrin told him levelly. He did not flinch from that stare, either. "They are prisoners, and no threat. They're women."

 

"They are Aes Sedai." Rand's voice was so like Aram's back at Dumai's Wessl that it nearly took Perrin's breath.

 

"Rand ..."

 

"I do what I have to do, Perrin." For a moment he was the old Rand, not liking what was happening. For a moment he looked tired to death. A moment only. Then he was the new Rand again, hard enough to mark steel. "I won't harm any Aes Sedai who doesn't deserve it. Perrin. I can't promise more. Since you don't want the army, I can use you elsewhere. Just as well, rally. I wish I could let you rest longer than a day or two, but I can't. There's no time. No time, and we must do what we must. Forgive me for interrupting you." He stretched a bow, one hand on the hilt of his sword. "Faile."

 

Perrin did nothing about the treatment, despite seeing them get beaten and worked in manual labor that broke their arrogance. He didn't even interfere when Edarra and the other Wise Ones that went with him (not followed him) had their two apprentice Aes Sedai punished.

 

This despite Rand only promising not to hurt an Aes Sedai that doesn't deserve it (meaning he promised to hurt the Aes Sedai that deserved being hurt).

 

It was a confrontation; but I think Perrin thought better or it later; or backed down when he saw that Rand wasn't going to kill/torture them all.

 

Again, the point is that Perrin stood up for these women prisoners then went around and delivered 200+ women channelers to a life of slavery and inhumane treatment (for those women unbound by the oath rod, that is a century or three of damane life!).

Edited April 14, 2012 by Theodril

[Azrayne]

Again, the point is that Perrin stood up for these women prisoners then went around and delivered 200+ women channelers to a life of slavery and inhumane treatment (for those women unbound by the oath rod, that is a century or three of damane life!).

 

Wait, are you referring to the Shaido Wise Ones? After what they've done (even putting Perrin's rage over Faile aside), it's hardly more than they deserve.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Meh, the point doesn't bother me. Rand was his childhood friend and most likely insane, Perrin just had a little chat.

 

The Wise One situation was with Seanchan, an unknown power of uncertain temperament.

 

Besides, Perrin was pretty pissed off. I have no doubt he would have collared every last one of them himself if he had to.

 

I've no problem with his actions.

[Finnssss22]

What I find funny is when I read short sighted posts filled with Perrin hate that denounce him for suddenly going off the reservation when this was foreshadowed at length in both the story and in prophecy.

 

It Tear when he entered TAR to get Faile back no matter the cost, then standing up to her father when he said he would take Faile away, Perrin again says he will come for her no matter the cost.

Over and over we have been told how single minded wolves are and that Perrin shares this trait.

Then, prophecy itself....

"And it shall come to pass, in the days when the Dark Hunt rides, when the right hand falters and the left hand strays, that mankind shall come to the Crossroads of Twilight and all that is, all that was, and all that will be shall balance on the point of a sword, while the winds of the Shadow grow."

 

This is obviously about Perrin going off the reservation while Mat pisses around in Altara.

 

I agree with the OP, Perrin has had a long and mostly enjoyable road in his development and while I agree the Faile being held by the Shaido arc was overly long and drawn out. That shouldn't take away from his character overall.

Edited April 14, 2012 by Finnssss

[safwd]

Yes. Rand would not have saved Faile because Faile was not worth sacrificing hundreds of people on a useless war. Faile versus the world. I guess the world wins except for Perrin of course.

 

But the funny thing is, after this useless war where hundreds of people were sacrificed Perrin is going to come out of it with a larger army that is more loyal than it was before he went after Faile. He now has the respect of a sudo high ranking Seanchan officer and the Shaido are out of the picture.

 

Seems like alot got accomplished in this usless war of his.

[XXX]

That is immaterial. Rand gives a cr@p about Faile and he would not have allowed the wastage of military resources to save her. Perrin contradicted a direct order from the DR. In the real world that would be considered as disobeying the chain of command and would be "rewarded" with a demotion or more likely a dismissal.

[David Selig]

That is immaterial. Rand gives a cr@p about Faile and he would not have allowed the wastage of military resources to save her. Perrin contradicted a direct order from the DR. In the real world that would be considered as disobeying the chain of command and would be "rewarded" with a demotion or more likely a dismissal.

Are you sure we are talking about the same Rand? He made a list of all women who died because of him and couldn't hurt Lanfear even when she was killing him and his closest friends. No way he'd sit back and leave his buddy's wife captive when he could easily help.

 

Besides, the Shaido were his enemies anyway and it made military sense to crush them even if Faile wasn't involved.

 

What direct order did Perrin disobey, BTW?

Edited April 15, 2012 by David Selig

[yoniy0]

I agree. This is the same Rand that wouldn't kill Semirhage when she first let him embrace the Source (he was under the illusion that he could, just then). The same Rand that launched an ill advised assault on Caemlyn just because he thought his girlfriend's ma' was killed? He wouldn't understand going after your wife, when it entails getting rid of an opponent along the way?

 

Perhaps you're right. As Harine noted, Rand cares little for others. Not that he actually thinks they aren't entitled to the same privileges as he, he just doesn't take note of their needs. Anyway, the important thing here is, Rand's in no position to criticize Perrin's actions.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I still do not understand the criticism of this. Perrin is far from perfect, but at least make the critique sensible. The guy's wife was kidnapped, what do you expect him to do? The guy is newly (relatively) married, head over heels for her. Sure, it may make him a moping sod, but I don't see how anyone can critcise him for it. I wonder how any of us would react in the same situation? I highly doubt anyone could do much better than he did.

 

Perrin didn't actually disobey any orders. Rand said to stop Masema and the Dragonsworn messing around, and to bring Masema to him. Perrin wanted to send Masema on to Rand, as planned, but Masema would not go by Travelling, and insisted on travelling with Perrin. Besides which, he was a complete nutcase, it is lucky Perrin managed to leash him as long as he did.

 

The only "wrong" things he did was delay his return to Rand to rescue his wife. Which can hardly be considered a fault. His army and followers would have deserted him if he left Faile imprisoned. It would have been far, far worse an outcome had this happened.

 

Then, the most damaging thing against him would be the deal with the Seanchan and collaring of the Wise Ones. Dangerous thing to do, but he covered himself pretty well. He struck a bargin with his own name, not Rand's. (Although, he did use Rand as an influence) They wanted to collar the Wise Ones, or they would not have helped. Perrin saw not only the obvious opportunity to rescue Faile, but to wipe out the Shaido who, if left alone, would have done far more damage than they did.

 

All he had to do was compromise and allow the Collaring of the women who destroyed Cairhien, ravaged Gheldean(I can never spell it) and kidnapped a crapload of random people.

 

I would hardly fault him on that. May make him a bit of a hypocrite, but he hardly did anything so disastrously treasonous and terrible.

 

Managed to rid himself of the Dragonsworn and is the first to make friendly ties with the Seanchan, which, considering their power and upcoming attack on the White Tower, is pretty sound tactically. They might be assholes, but as Rand himself knows, he cannot fight the Seanchan and the Dark One.

[Faile T Aybara]

It's funny how most of the comments on here center negatively on his whining about becoming, well, a lord. Put yourself in his shoes. Have you ever had to rise to something so unfamiliar to you? It's hard to imagine, considering that we're not governed is such a way but say, your a grade school student, and you get bumped up senior year in HS. It wasn't a slow change, this man wanted to protect his people and it had to be done RIGHT AWAY. He only wants a simple life, but he's being pulled to Rand. I, personally can't wait to see what his roll will be for TG. I will agree however that his dealings with the Shaido were stretched out far too much.

 

 

Meow :3

[safwd]

That is immaterial. Rand gives a cr@p about Faile and he would not have allowed the wastage of military resources to save her. Perrin contradicted a direct order from the DR. In the real world that would be considered as disobeying the chain of command and would be "rewarded" with a demotion or more likely a dismissal.

 

Maybe. Or i could see the conversation going this way:

 

Perrin: Rand, i disobeyed your orders because Faile was captured by the Shaido.

Rand: Why you son of a .... I outa balefire you.

Perrin: Oh ya, and in doing so i have pretty much wiped out the Shaido, Now have a positive tie with the Seanchan and have this really big army to give to you for the last battle.

Rand: Oh, i guess were good.

[XXX]

That is immaterial. Rand gives a cr@p about Faile and he would not have allowed the wastage of military resources to save her. Perrin contradicted a direct order from the DR. In the real world that would be considered as disobeying the chain of command and would be "rewarded" with a demotion or more likely a dismissal.

Are you sure we are talking about the same Rand? He made a list of all women who died because of him and couldn't hurt Lanfear even when she was killing him and his closest friends. No way he'd sit back and leave his buddy's wife captive when he could easily help.

 

Besides, the Shaido were his enemies anyway and it made military sense to crush them even if Faile wasn't involved.

 

What direct order did Perrin disobey, BTW?

 

He disobeyed the order to go get the prophet.

 

BTW the Rand who would not hurt Lanfear was not the same during the time Perrin went to rescue Faile. This Rand was perfectly willing to let his mentor Lan go to his death to get a military advantage.

[yoniy0]

He disobeyed the order to go get the prophet.

He did not. He went, then brought the Prophet back the only way he would go. They took a detour, true. But that wasn't strictly outside the scope of the mission.

 

BTW the Rand who would not hurt Lanfear was not the same during the time Perrin went to rescue Faile. This Rand was perfectly willing to let his mentor Lan go to his death to get a military advantage.

It was not. Perrin was done with the Shaido by KoD. Rand in TGS's The Last that Can be Done still wouldn't kill Semirhage, not until his psyche snapped. And it was that Rand, the one who has touched the TP, that refused Nynaeve to aid Lan.

[bronnt]

Been away from these boards since forever, but this is one topic that really burned me. The problem isn't with Perrin himself (even though he is written rather stupidly) but the fact that the entire plot is one big, big Idiot Plot. I'd have been happy to read much more of Perrin, even his pointless side-show, if it was written in a fashion that made sense. I love these books, don't get me wrong-I don't mean to be overly critical. But this side plot should never have been written.

 

To recap:

 

It really starts when Queen Alliandre of Ghealdan writes Rand a letter, asking him to come and deal with the Prophet, and she's willing to swear fealty to his cause if he can help restore a bit of order to her country. It's a completely legitimate request, too, since the Prophet is a person who knows Rand personally, and all the people who are rioting and creating this chaos are people who ostensibly call themselves his followers. That's not to say they're necessarily all that interested in following, or that it's his fault the country is in chaos, but since she's willing to swear fealty in exchange for helping him solve a problem that is related to him, it's a very fair deal.

 

So what is Rand's solution to this? Remember, he's shown himself completely willing to occupy Tear, Illian (later), Cairhein, and Caemlyn at this point (though he's not personally attempting to rule Andor in general, just hold it and restore order for a while). Rand may not like the idea of taking Asha'Man into a volatile situation, but then, he's already crossed that bridge repeatedly. We're never given a reason he doesn't take himself with a dozen Asha'Man, a few of his loyal Aes Sedai, and a portion of his army to deal with this. All he really needed to do was show up and speak to Alliandre-that's essentially all Perrin did before she swore fealty to HIM-and then tell Masema that it was time to go. Obviously it's problematic for Rand himself to risk walking through areas where there's perhaps active rioting, but that's hardly crazier than some stuff he's already done sucessfully, and the fact that some Aes Sedai have sworn oaths of obedience, and the fact that he has Asha'Man willing to obey his orders should be enough to protect him. Dealing with a rioting crowd instead of an army of Aiel should be fairly simple. If they're willing to follow him, he'd be smart to divide them up so they can cause fewer issues, and send them to be trained into an army as he's done with other segments of his followers.

 

But okay, perhaps he thinks it would take too much time and he has other important things to be doing (we'll ignore the fact that, in the same book, he spends several days literally moping about in his room doing nothing). So he sends Perrin, along with a few loyal Aes Sedai and a couple of Asha'Man, along with a force sufficient to subdue any rioting, should it come to it. I might be misremebering the strength of Perrin's forces, but really, two Asha'Man ought to be able to cut a swath through these people if necessary. For some reason that still makes no sense to me, they stage a fight in order to hide Perrin's purpose. To this day, I've never understood why this was a big secret. He was fully willing to have Perrin openly lead his armies attacking Illian to use him as a diversion; perhaps he was afraid of Sammael attacking Perrin if he turned up someplace else while doing work for Rand. Again, this makes no sense in context with other actions-he let Mat march his band without any channeler support quite openly while moving to meet up with the rest of his army, practically begging for HIM to be attacked. And naturally, Sammael did attack, but, being a big fat idiot like the rest of the Forsaken, instead of squashing Mat's tent by ripping open the earth and crushing, he instead launched a very survivable surprise attack using Aiel. So I'm still not sold on that being Rand's motive.

 

Regardless, Perrin actuallly underook this secret mission while openly displaying banners that said, "Hey, Perrin Aybara is right here!" and succeeded. He pretty much had accomplished his mission. Masema, of course, refused to use the OP to Travel, but he agrees that he will go to meet Rand. At this point, Faile is captured by the Shaido. The next bits are perfectly reasonable, if you give Perrrin a pass for panicking and making stupid mistakes as a result of panicking. He doesn't know the strength of the Shaido, so he thinks he can intercept them and catch up with Faile and rescue her. If they'd caught the raiding party itself before it hooked back up with the Shaido, it's quite likely, since they had no channelers. But he screws this up, and ends up taking quite a while before catching up with her. I'll give him a pass for this-people screw up, it makes for good literature. Also, he's still essentially following Rand's directions, since he was sent specifically to secure Queen Alliandre's allegiance, and she ended up kidnapped along with Faile, so rescuing her is an acceptable part of this mission. If we accept the premise of Perrin's mission, we're quite, quite fine with everything that happens in his side plot through Winter's Heart.

 

Then came Crossroads of Twilight. This is where good plotting went to die. The entire plot hinges on Perrin's inability to quickly resolve a problem in order for the rest of the plot to work, so in a world where you can instantly Travel from anywhere to anywhere else, we're forced to endure filler. This is so full of stupid crap I can barely tolerate it. Perrin no longer gets a pass for being stupid since he's no longer panicking or behaving irrationally. It's almost as if RJ knows how idiotic Perrin is being and seeks to drive this home, despite the fact that Perrin has no excuse anymore. Perrin finds the Shaido encampment, he sees that it's way too big and well defended to defeat, and he learns that there's something like 200 channelers in the town. He's literally thinking about how he's ever supposed to defeat this force when an image of Rand is shoved into his brain. It's like an epiphany is trying to shove itself down his throat. At this point, there's no reason he's not saying, "Hey, I should get Rand's help-as soon as he's finished with what sounds like a very dangerous task, as it's creeping out all the channelers I have with me." He doesn't though. I guess he's still under whatever secret oath of secrecy he took, or something, but honestly, there's four major reasons he should be seeking Rand here.

 

1) He's on the same side as Perrin and has a force indisputably strong enough to crack open the Shaido camp like an egg.

2) Rand had already expressed a desire to find the rest of the Shaido and stop them from causing more havoc.

3) Rand also told him specifically to bring back Masema, who is present and creating problems that Rand can readily solve with his mere presence.

4) Perrin cannot complete the mission Rand sent him on without defeating the Shaido, since Alliandre is a prisoner.

 

There are certainly a few problems for Perrin to overcome. That is, immediately after the battle at Shadar Logoth, Rand goes missing. Of course, three different factions, each searching for Rand, ALL managed to track him down by the end of this book (Logain, Bashere, and Loial/Karldin). If Perrin had had the decency to look for him, he'd probably have stumbled on the same method of tracking him down. He also has another advantage none of them had-a freaking psychic connection that allows him to see where Rand is and what he's doing. He has zero excuse for not trying, especially given his singular focus on rescuing Faile. The most obvious method to her salvation is completely ignored by him, as well as any responsibility he feels toward Rand's mission being thrown out the window-he jeopardizes it by leaving Alliandre in bondage longer than necessary.

 

It gets worse. He has the ability to travel anywhere in the known world to purchase grain. Instead of going to Tear, Illian, or Cairhien (remember how Tear had all this extra grain that they sent to Illian and Cairhein?) he travels to a small town nearby where the grain is completely infested with weevils. He ignores this obvious health hazard, refuses to allow anyone to try to help these townspeople, and continues on his way. RJ was toying with us by creating this So Harber sideplot (a sideplot of a sideplot) that screamed: OBVIOUS FILLER.

 

Perrin continued to be idiotic. He continues to get reminds of where Rand is and what he's doing, even learning that Rand loses a hand through his psychic connection, and never tries to contact him. He thinks that he'll make a deal with the Dark One himself if it will get Faile back. Better to make a deal with the Dark One than call your best friend, right? Also, Rand at this point stops obviously hiding from the whole world, which means Perrin might have a chance to find him. Perrin's clearly thinking about using some of his actual friends to help him out, since he sends Grady to the Two Rivers and brings Tam al'Thor with a legion of bowmen. Hey Tam, I know you'd like to see your son and all, and I know we can create magic holes in the air that can take you anywhere in the world, but sorry, we're not taking you to see your son. There's obviously no reason Perrin shoudln't have thought of this, and using his psychic connection to track him down. What he opts instead is to make an alliance with a second powerful force, one completely opposed to Rand, and making a proposition that will make them considerably stronger by consigning 200 women to slavery. He was upset about Rand mistreating the women who threw him in a box and tortured him, but he's completely okay with forcing slavery onto Aiel women. It gets disgusting at this point, since, despite making common cause with the Seanchan, he's still taking an ENORMOUS gamble because he's relying on his ability to poison the Aiel water supply. He just barely has enough strength to pull off his victory thanks to a great deal of luck, rather than taking the relatively easy method of asking his best friend for help.

 

So we've had two books full of idiot plot at this point just for the payoff, stuffed with filler. People might have started to forgive Perrin if his idiot plot had had the decency to die, at this point. It did not. It's gone on for two more books-he rescued Faile, but the Sideplot of Doom refuses to die. He's accomplished what Rand asked of him. He has too many people to logistically move at once since he has only two channelers who can create Gateways. Common sense dictates, since he's achieved what Rand asked of him and just needs to get back and report, he send someone to track down Rand, using a combination of his psychic connection, the ability to Travel anywhere instantly, and a tiny bit of detective work. Let's keep in mind that, while it's nice to point out that Gateways have some logistical problems with using them, the more pressing issue of how he's keeping 100,000 refugees (plus his own army) fed is tidily ignored. He can feel Rand pulling him to rejoin him, so he's marching slowly with this big press of refugees instead of trying to find him. The only reason for this contrivance is so that Tam al'Thor can avoid showing up until the end of the book.

 

The side plot didn't end there, but it should have. Perrin has all these refugees, keeping them fed has got to be a major pain, and he should have told Tam to ask Rand for some channelers to Travel his people, or he should have gone with Rand himself. He knows he needs to be reuniting with Rand. This side-plot continues to go on through Towers of Midnight, with no one from either Rand's or Perrin's camp attempting to contact the other, and Tam not asking Rand to send people to collect them (even though he has friends from the Two Rivers with Perrin).

 

Perrin is likeable. His sideplot is written so stupidly that it is not.

[Vardar]

You know, maybe I'm different, but my main issue with Perrin wasn't his yearning for his wife (Although I hate Faile with a passion she's a horrible person), I can understand Love, nor his tenderness, emotions don't make you a weak person, my issue with Perrin was his inability to step up and do what needs to be done without a lot of forcing. Mat didn't want to be a Lord of lead armies, Rand never asked to be the Dragon Reborn, but they accepted. In the earlier books, Perrin was accepting of what must be, he did what he had to do because it was right, but then he got married and all of a sudden, stuff stopped mattering? Perrin at Dumai Wells was the pinacle of Perrin (Until the badass hammer scene) after that, it was downhill. I mean really, is he a man or is he a man? Man up, stop acting like a child and stand firm. He's a coward. There, I said it.

 

Not wanting to lead is one thing, allowing others to die for your refusal to lead is cowardice. Willing to sacrifice not only your people, but all of existence to get your wife back? Please. That's a huge character flaw! He's not fit to lead. Who would want to follow him? They're all nuts! If he was willing to let someone else make the decisions, then ok. But he wasn't even willng to do that. He's a coward who's bullied by his wife. Does he do anything without her permission? Does he ever tell him no? I mean damn. I know this world is literally dominated by women, but geez, Perrin could grow a pair and stand up for his beliefs without pleasing his wife at least once!

 

As I told my two ex-gfs whom I got to read the series, Perrin is a character for the Women to love. And it's true, every female who I know reads the series is in LOVE with Perrin. Funny thing is, they won't admit why (or they can't see the real reason)

[Vardar]

You know what i find funny? This guy was going fave to face with rand regarding the issue of aes sedai when they were captured after dumai wells. Yet he had no qualms about the seanchan enslaving 200 women in one go and treat them basically like pawns. God someone get rid of this guy already!

What did you want Perrin to do with the Shaido wise ones? Did Perrin have the ability to capture and contain 200 pissed off channelers with his army. No he did not. Should he have let them go? Now you have 200 angry channlers behind you. That kind of idea gets you killed. So that really leaves two options, Let the Seanchan have them or while they are drugged out on forkroot stick a sword in them. So option 1: Give them to the Seanchan and let them become Damane Option 2: Mass murder 200 helpless women. Which should he have chosen? I always like Perrin. I didnt love the Faile chase but i didnt loath it either. And he redeamed himself as soon as he cut the shaido's hand off.

 

Murder vs Slavery? Or better yet, an Honorable Death vs Lifetime Enslavement and treated as less than an animal

 

It's not Murder in a war, it was them against him, that would have been an honorable death on the field of battle. Instead he enslaved the lot of them. That's HORRIBLE!

[Vardar]

@ Bronnt: He sends Perrin to the Queenm because he didn't want his enemies to know about the deal, or that he was worried about the dragonsworn. Picking up the dragonsworn while most of the world thought them to be a loose force would have been to his advantage.So it's not about time, but about seeming to be.

 

@ the Gateway bit with the prophet, that always bothered me too. Knock him out, and push him thru a gateway. But again, Perrin as a character is really weak willed for a leader. He's not a leader, he's not even a leader who doesn't know he's one. He is not fit ot lead.

 

Good point about the Grain too, although I suppose he didn't go to Tear because no one was supposed to know what he was doing. He couldn't risk running into someone who thought he was somewhere else. I also never understood why he didn't try to get more channelers, although I suppose you could loosely claim it was because he was on a secret mission, but finding the shaido seems important enough to me to risk detection and get some more channelers. To do otherwise is just stupiud. He never even thought of it!

[bronnt]

@ Bronnt: He sends Perrin to the Queenm because he didn't want his enemies to know about the deal, or that he was worried about the dragonsworn. Picking up the dragonsworn while most of the world thought them to be a loose force would have been to his advantage.So it's not about time, but about seeming to be.

 

This doesn't make sense to me either. He didn't want his enemies to know that he was forming an alliance with Ghealdan? He didn't exactly hide that he was ruling Tear, Illian, and Cairhein at any point, and none of this caused the Forsaken to drop into the Stone or the Sun Palace and massacre his allies. It doesn't make sense that he wanted to remain behind the scenes since it's inconsistent with the rest of his actions. I get that he can't be everywhere, but honestly, she was eager to swear fealty in exchange for protection, so I don't know why he didn't just Travel there and offer her protection. The only reason is that the Plot wouldn't allow it, because we needed Perrin to get lost for 7 or 8 books full of sideplot.

[Mr Ares]

Not wanting to lead is one thing, allowing others to die for your refusal to lead is cowardice. Willing to sacrifice not only your people, but all of existence to get your wife back? Please. That's a huge character flaw! He's not fit to lead. Who would want to follow him? They're all nuts! If he was willing to let someone else make the decisions, then ok. But he wasn't even willng to do that. He's a coward who's bullied by his wife. Does he do anything without her permission? Does he ever tell him no? I mean damn. I know this world is literally dominated by women, but geez, Perrin could grow a pair and stand up for his beliefs without pleasing his wife at least once!

Who died for Perrin's refusal to lead? Also, was Perrin really willing to sacrifice existence to get his wife back? A character's thoughts aren't necessarily completely reliable. He might say he's willing to make a deal with Shai'tan, but if push came ot shove is there really any evidence he would? During Faile's captivity, his neglect of his duties amounts to his desire to rescue his wife being placed as his first priority (delaying the return of the Prophet, but not abandoning his mission), and not doing enough for Aram. Other than that, he looks after his people fairly well. Also, who was to make the decisions in his place? He never stopped people leading, he just stepped into a vacuum. No-one was doing the damn job so he stepped up.

 

You know what i find funny? This guy was going fave to face with rand regarding the issue of aes sedai when they were captured after dumai wells. Yet he had no qualms about the seanchan enslaving 200 women in one go and treat them basically like pawns. God someone get rid of this guy already!

What did you want Perrin to do with the Shaido wise ones? Did Perrin have the ability to capture and contain 200 pissed off channelers with his army. No he did not. Should he have let them go? Now you have 200 angry channlers behind you. That kind of idea gets you killed. So that really leaves two options, Let the Seanchan have them or while they are drugged out on forkroot stick a sword in them. So option 1: Give them to the Seanchan and let them become Damane Option 2: Mass murder 200 helpless women. Which should he have chosen? I always like Perrin. I didnt love the Faile chase but i didnt loath it either. And he redeamed himself as soon as he cut the shaido's hand off.

 

Murder vs Slavery? Or better yet, an Honorable Death vs Lifetime Enslavement and treated as less than an animal

 

It's not Murder in a war, it was them against him, that would have been an honorable death on the field of battle. Instead he enslaved the lot of them. That's HORRIBLE!

Given that the Wise Ones were drugged, unable to fight back, it's hardly an honourable death on the field of battle, so much as a massacre of the helpless. I suppose butchering people while they sleep is morally so much better than enslaving them.

 

@ the Gateway bit with the prophet, that always bothered me too. Knock him out, and push him thru a gateway. But again, Perrin as a character is really weak willed for a leader. He's not a leader, he's not even a leader who doesn't know he's one. He is not fit ot lead.

And then knock out his entire army and shove them through a Gateway as well. That's a practical solution, that is. Or maybe he should take the sensible option, and leave a now leaderless rabble behind. No way for that to go wrong. Perrin needs to worry about Masema and his army - kidnapping the leader and leaving the rest is an amazingly bad idea.

[yoniy0]

The main problem, @bronnt, is that Perrin can't trust Rand to care about Faile's fate. Rand might've obliterated the Shaido, true, but who's to say he'd done it in a way that wouldn't prove fatal to, at least, some captives? Alliandre is Faile's best assurance, and it's not a very strong one. So, Perrin decided to do it on his own. Stupid, perhaps, but not without merit.

[safwd]

You know what i find funny? This guy was going fave to face with rand regarding the issue of aes sedai when they were captured after dumai wells. Yet he had no qualms about the seanchan enslaving 200 women in one go and treat them basically like pawns. God someone get rid of this guy already!

What did you want Perrin to do with the Shaido wise ones? Did Perrin have the ability to capture and contain 200 pissed off channelers with his army. No he did not. Should he have let them go? Now you have 200 angry channlers behind you. That kind of idea gets you killed. So that really leaves two options, Let the Seanchan have them or while they are drugged out on forkroot stick a sword in them. So option 1: Give them to the Seanchan and let them become Damane Option 2: Mass murder 200 helpless women. Which should he have chosen? I always like Perrin. I didnt love the Faile chase but i didnt loath it either. And he redeamed himself as soon as he cut the shaido's hand off.

 

Murder vs Slavery? Or better yet, an Honorable Death vs Lifetime Enslavement and treated as less than an animal

 

It's not Murder in a war, it was them against him, that would have been an honorable death on the field of battle. Instead he enslaved the lot of them. That's HORRIBLE!

 

Actually it is still murder in a war, which is why we have had soldiers on trial for murder for things they did during a not so far in the past war.

And since i have a wee bit of knowledge on this topic i can tell you that if a soldier captures an enemy, ties him up so he cannot move, then shoots him in the head it is murder.

Both options suck but if i were given the choice between the two i dont think i could bring myself to kill them.

And i say again, it was a bargining chip to get the Seanchens help. He needed their help so he did what he needed to to get it. Would they have helped without that bargin, maybe, but maybe not.

You dont have to like what he did but what he did saved lives on his side. That is good leadership. Leaders sometimes have to do distastfull things and i feel he chose the less of the 2 evils.

If you think being made Damane is worse than death then that is fine, your opinion. I disagree.

[Vardar]

Actually it is still murder in a war, which is why we have had soldiers on trial for murder for things they did during a not so far in the past war.

And since i have a wee bit of knowledge on this topic i can tell you that if a soldier captures an enemy, ties him up so he cannot move, then shoots him in the head it is murder.

Both options suck but if i were given the choice between the two i dont think i could bring myself to kill them.

And i say again, it was a bargining chip to get the Seanchens help. He needed their help so he did what he needed to to get it. Would they have helped without that bargin, maybe, but maybe not.

You dont have to like what he did but what he did saved lives on his side. That is good leadership. Leaders sometimes have to do distastfull things and i feel he chose the less of the 2 evils.

If you think being made Damane is worse than death then that is fine, your opinion. I disagree.

 

You're forgetting it's not as simple as tying up an enemy soldier and holding him in jail. In this case, channelling rules out simply holding them in jail. Most rules of convential warfare would go out of the door once the enemy could kill you with a mere glace if they were awake. I'm certain in that situaiton, if you drugged and killed an enemy, no court would call it murder.

 

Who died for Perrin's refusal to lead? Also, was Perrin really willing to sacrifice existence to get his wife back? A character's thoughts aren't necessarily completely reliable. He might say he's willing to make a deal with Shai'tan, but if push came ot shove is there really any evidence he would? During Faile's captivity, his neglect of his duties amounts to his desire to rescue his wife being placed as his first priority (delaying the return of the Prophet, but not abandoning his mission), and not doing enough for Aram. Other than that, he looks after his people fairly well. Also, who was to make the decisions in his place? He never stopped people leading, he just stepped into a vacuum. No-one was doing the damn job so he stepped up.

 

Countless unnamed characters. From the Two Rivers and beyond. Every bad decision he made caused deaths, everytime his refusal to step up and do what needed to be done until he had no choice. Heck, just to name a quick one, the people with Faile before she was captured. The deaths of all those men are on Perrin's head.

 

This doesn't make sense to me either. He didn't want his enemies to know that he was forming an alliance with Ghealdan? He didn't exactly hide that he was ruling Tear, Illian, and Cairhein at any point, and none of this caused the Forsaken to drop into the Stone or the Sun Palace and massacre his allies. It doesn't make sense that he wanted to remain behind the scenes since it's inconsistent with the rest of his actions. I get that he can't be everywhere, but honestly, she was eager to swear fealty in exchange for protection, so I don't know why he didn't just Travel there and offer her protection. The only reason is that the Plot wouldn't allow it, because we needed Perrin to get lost for 7 or 8 books full of sideplot.

 

Add another city of the lists of places you have to randomly travel too to make your presence known? Eventually it becomes a bad thing. Sure the forsaken wouldn't attack certain cities because they never knew if he'd be there, but you can't keep that up forever. Eventually even with travelling it becomes a hazard to have to offer more cities your direct protection. He's only 1 man.

 

And then knock out his entire army and shove them through a Gateway as well. That's a practical solution, that is. Or maybe he should take the sensible option, and leave a now leaderless rabble behind. No way for that to go wrong. Perrin needs to worry about Masema and his army - kidnapping the leader and leaving the rest is an amazingly bad idea.

 

Nope just him. Send him thru, give him to Rand, come back, "BEHOLD! I HATH DELIVERED THE PROPHET UNTO HIS GOD, AND HE HATH DECREED THAT YOU WILL NOW FOLLOW ME, THE BEST FRIEND OF THE LORD DRAGON, GREATER THAN A MERE PROPHET, BOW BEFORE THE HANDS THAT HATH SLAPPED THE LORD DRAGON ONCE OR TWICE"

 

Ok maybe I'm being a little sarcastic, but it would work something like that. 10 minutes of time wasted, no kidnapping, no horses dead, good times had by all!

[Suttree]

Countless unnamed characters. From the Two Rivers and beyond.

 

So glad you cleared that up

 

Nope just him. Send him thru, give him to Rand, come back, "BEHOLD! I HATH DELIVERED THE PROPHET UNTO HIS GOD, AND HE HATH DECREED THAT YOU WILL NOW FOLLOW ME, THE BEST FRIEND OF THE LORD DRAGON, GREATER THAN A MERE PROPHET, BOW BEFORE THE HANDS THAT HATH SLAPPED THE LORD DRAGON ONCE OR TWICE"

 

Thus weakening his force with the large majority being criminals, rapists and half sane men. Solid idea that.