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What is the deal with the Egwene-hate?


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#61 Kael Pyralis

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 10:04 AM


...



Probably the biggest reason I dislike Egwene is posts like this one. If you don't just luuuuvvvv Egwene, you are jealous/sexist/too young or old or tall or fat to understand her.

Utter garbage.


So you dislike a character in the book because of how random people try to guess at why you dislike her? That seems a little circular...





...



...


Boom. I knew that was coming the second I read his post. Everyone knows what side of the Egwene debate I fall on but the whole jealousy thing just doesn't hold much weight. I do think how ever many people seem to be resentful at how she has gone about accomplishing everything in a somewhat unrealistic manner. To me that is somewhat unfair when we have others gaining skills from magic wishes and the like.


The problem is that Egwene gains skills and accomplishments in an unrealistic manner OUTSIDE of the series' magic system. We don't expect a character's development of magical powers to be realistic. We do expect skills such as political accumen, leadership, etc (skills that have some connection to the real world, and should not require the suspension of disbelief) to be in some way realistic. If you think about it, Egwene critics don't get too worked up about her abilities with the Power. No one criticizes her for so quickly developing great facility with the creation of cuendillar, or her ability to delve for metals. It is her entirely unrealistic attainment of abilities that have a basis in reality that are criticized.

The same could be said of her, ummm, extremely high self-esteem. Beleiving yourself to be special because you can do magic, or are a ta'veren, or have supernatural luck? Doesn't bother anyone. Believing you have all of the answers, not because you are an instrument of the pattern or because the savior of the world resides in your head, but simply because you are super-extra-special and got some advice from someone who used to hold your job? Problem.

Add to that the authors' seeming lack of awareness of the Mary Sue-ness of the character (in contrast to every other character) and it adds up to, for many, a character with little redeeming value.

And since the original poster of this nonsence is so interested, no, I was not in fact a cheerleader. But I was all-state in two sports, and did naughty, naughty things with several cheerleaders :) Granted, that was back in my more hirsuite days...


"Some advice from someone who used to hold your job?", That is a ridiculous over-simplification. There is a PoV from Siuan where she defines her motivation as making Egwene into the best Amyrlin. That's quite a ways above "some advice" from her. As if Egwene grudgingly asks advince now-and-then.

Also, Lan takes like five min to show Perrin which was is up on his axe, Perrin hates the thing and never practices, and yet Perrin seems like some unstoppable killing machine in battle. I find that far more ridiculous than Egwene, who may very well be 'suffering' from Rand's Ta'veren ripples -- A'la his statement "I see you've done your part". If Perrin was written more bloodlustly like Fitz Chivalry, where even his allies freak out over his crazy wolf-like-ness in battles, then maybe I'd buy it, but not with only a few quotes about wanting to go for throats.

And maybe some of us are overly sick if whiny baby characters who protest "buuutttt I don't wanna' be a looorrrrdddd" all the god damn time. How about someone actually take up the challenge of responsibility for once (like Egwene) and actually believe in themselves as something more than Sheppard, blacksmiths, or useless rogues. There are already enough lame books about cowardly unlikely hobbits... I mean heroes... I don't find it 'wrong' to have a character who's willing to embrace a challenge and believes the can actually succeed.

She's a know-it-all. Not so much in a knowledge sense (although she does know a lot from Siuan's training), but more as in "I'm right and everyone else is wrong." I hate to generalize, but I would bet that most people in the world are bothered by that. Who here can say they enjoy listening to someone like that? I think the term "know-it-all" pretty much sums it up, and that's why Egwene bothers so many readers.


And what else should she do? She's the leader of the white tower, she needs to make decisions given what she knows (or what she can know based on what some people [Rand] offer to tell her). She also needs to be confident in those choices until something solid comes to her attention to make her doubt.

Contrast it was Gawyn, "I Hate Rand" "Why" "He killed my mother" "No he didn't" "WELL I HATE HIM ANYWAY!" That, I can understand hating.
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But oh my God, a young Aes Sedai decided to share her advice with an older one in regards to her warder. Stop the presses." - Elan Tedronai

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#62 Coldenn

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 11:45 AM

Perrin has pretty much always had someone with him during his battles. Aram, borderline Blademaster (imo), Loial, who is just...Loial, or an army behind him. I can't think of a significant one on one fight Perrin has that would say he is an amazing fighter. Sure he faces down Aeil, but a strong man with a decent amount of experience in a "wolf blood rage" wouldn't be easy meat, even for an Aeil.

Anyway, back to Egwene. It has been said several times, but this series focuses a lot on people learning through failures of some kind, and people that are too self righteous getting pulled down a peg or 13. Egwene has yet to have her peg more than touched. She is going to be one of the best, if not THE best Amerlyn the Tower has ever had, but she needs to be brought off her high horse before she can truly be Aes Sedai and the Amerlyn Seat.
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#63 TheLagomorph

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 04:16 AM

She's a know-it-all. Not so much in a knowledge sense (although she does know a lot from Siuan's training), but more as in "I'm right and everyone else is wrong." I hate to generalize, but I would bet that most people in the world are bothered by that. Who here can say they enjoy listening to someone like that? I think the term "know-it-all" pretty much sums it up, and that's why Egwene bothers so many readers.


I forgot the know-it all thing. I have talked to professors and other active knowledgeable people and sometimes am just amazed and astounded by the the level and depth of knowledge. Imagine having one of those live 200yrs and then meeting a 19yo know it all, brr.... Luckily for her Egwene has an aura of intelligence -40 so this does not happen.

Also, I write a whole list of reasons and get not a single reply and Redhandbandman writes a stupid, borderline trolling, post and everyone responds, what gives? *goes and cries in the corner*

Seriously though, feedback would be appreciated!
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#64 Kael Pyralis

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 11:37 AM

You asked for it!

Some reasons why I dislike our young Amyrlin, and some cons for balance:

I do not like the hypocrisy of flirting and giggling with Aram? (the mentally unstable tinker)and then being pissy with Rand. Con.: Stop complaining about a teenage girl having fun and being silly.

So you don't like realism? I mean every girl is perfectly rational all the time when it comes to boys right? Mmmhmm. Also, she WAS just having fun, it's not like she banged him, or was even necessarily interested. And she knows her own motivations, she can only guess at Rand's. And given his ultimate predicament of three girlfriends, I'm not sure she was far off the mark...

I do not like Egwene's attitude to dumping Rand and letting Elayne be the rebound girl. Con: it is not easy to communicate such things in any case.

Elayne liked Rand... Rand liked Elayne... how dare she do something completely unseflish and help set them up. Pretty sure she didn't sell Rand to her or bribe or blackmail either of them. Everyone had free will in that situation, she wanted them to be happy, and, apparently, they are. This is one of the dumbest Egwene criticisms I see repeated over and over.

I do not like Egwene's attitude to Rand when he wanted to know the location of Salidar. Con: He was not being subtle about it. Still her attitude sucked imo.

Not her secret to tell. Actually, aren't those her exact words? Are you one of those who thinks everyone should bow and scrape to the Dragon reborn? Elayne knew the Andor needed her, and she decided to do something else, and before that, I don't really see why Rand needed to know where they were. He seemed pretty skeptical they were truly on his side anyway. Probably not someone you'd WANT to trust with that information given his lack of enthusiasm.

I do not like the way Egwene lies to the wise ones, no honor there. She got her honor back only because the Aiel are the most forgiving people in the word if you let them whip you. Con: she atoned for it so there.

Aiel are the most forgiving people?! You realize they still hate Cairhiens for cutting down a tree? They waged a war just to kill a single guy, then basically went home and STILL hate the tree killers for being a part of it. They are not forgiving at all, they are honourable. It's not about being spanked/beaten, it's about fessing up and paying the cost. They could have, and likely would have, beaten Egwene for months had she not pleased them in how she conducted herself. Also, Egwene could have left, gone back to the white tower, without any reprisal and no one would have really cared. They would have dismissed her as another uncouth wetlander with no honour and that'd have been it. But she respected them enough that she had to pay the price for what she knew she did wrong.

As I've mentioned before, contrast that to Avi suggesting Elayne and Nynaeve pay off their toh to Mat and they scoff at the very idea of being hit in any way, and even the simple act of trying to be NICE to him, something they should do anyway, galls them both. If you want disgusting personalities, look to those two.

I do not like how Egwene treated Nyneave when covering her ass. Con.: None.

Yes that was a wrong-headed motivation, but nothing she said was untrue and Nynaeve admits she was being stupid... At least you're not claiming Egwene raped her.

I do not like Egwene's thoughts and handling of Mat's Band. Con.: i dunno

You'll have to be more specific... I cannot comment on "thoughts", she has lots of them. If you're referring to getting them to follow her... well I don't understand why that was horrible. Talmanes seemed pretty civil about the whole affair, they even made some decent money it seemed.

I really do not like Egwene's treatment of Siuan after being saved from the tower. Uncalled for, arrogant, uninterested in the motivations and reasons of a woman who was Armylin for years and years, insulting to Gareth and her about their relationship. Foul stuff. Con.: Maybe she was high on righteousness.

First of all, your attempts at being balanced are really getting weak. Almost insulting =(

She ordered them not to... she's the Amyrlin... if you want to argue how silly that was, then fine. But then again she was on the brink of succeeding.

I do not like Egwene's treatment of Gawhine. Con.: He is a little female dog so perhaps it is suitable.

He's a big boy, he can take care of himself. Some of us like crazy women, keeps things interesting *cough*. Given how stupid Gawyn was being, I'm not sure what specifically you're referring to. I assume the whole "You must learn to listen" thing. Well how many warders question their Aes Sedai in public? Pretty much zero. Gawyn needs to learn to be a warder if that's what he wants, he was doing a shitty job at it by constantly questioning her and having his own personal agenda with Rand. It's similar to what Egwene said to Nynaeve. She insisted Nynaeve call her mother, even in private, for practice. You'll notice she didn't demand the same from Elayne who can do it fine in public and didn't need the practice. Nynaeve will be allowed off that leash once she shows she can conduct herself properly. Even Mat understood how important it was to show deference to Egwene in order to help her out. Nynaeve should be at least as considerate and less so childish she refuses to acknowledge someone's legitimate authority just because she used to spank the girl.

I do not like Egwene's treatment of Nyneave during her testing. I would disown and rip the eyes out of any 'friend' who let people do that to me. Con.: dunno

So you think Nynaeve would like to be told she couldn't handle it? Or would like to be pampered, gone easy on, or have someone do her fighting for her? I think Egwene knows her friend better than that. Also, I think Nynaeve knows better than to think Egwene should spend her political capital just to exact some on-the-spot revenge. I'm sure neither will forget what happened, and Nynaeve gains much ji for passing.

I do not like Egwene's perception of Nynaeve's backing of Rand. Con.: I would be paranoid too if I knew ta'veren effects existed.

Your "balance" statement seems stronger than your original statement here. Fact: Ta'veren effect those around them. Fact: Nynaeve has spent a lot of time around Rand. Do you honestly believe it's irrational to think she might be pulled? Particularly when the Wise Ones had just agreed that it sounded foolish and said they'd talk to Rand about it, so she had just received confirmation that, yes, it is crazy to break the seals. As most people in the world would also agree. Maybe if Rand had actually reassured her in some way, she wouldn't be so dismissive of the idea.

So this is why, by and large, I do not like Egwene. It is not exhaustive and she does have redeeming aspects. Especially Nynaeve suffers at Egwene's hands and since Nynaeve is always motivated by caring for people it grates more.


This ridiculousness about Nynaeve as some perpetual goodly mother is damn near infuriating. While I'll happily admit that Nynaeve got better as the series went on, she is one of the most self-centred and pompous characters in the book. And it's Egwene, starting at the nightmare incident, when she really starts to reexamine herself and begins to change. She's lies to herself, blames everyone else for all her wrongs, and is prone to violent outbursts. Yes, her motivations are usually for the good of a handful of others, but so are Egwene's. The difference, is that Nynaeve's 'others' are those kids she swore to protect when she left tTW plus a few more, Egwene's 'others' are now all female channelers, those part of the tower and those who are not. Egwene cannot afford patronage to her close friends or those few she grew up with. She has way more people to look out for now.

And I don't feel like proof reading so deal with it lol.
"A man who who tended to milking and being the occasional blacksmith is suddenly killing men who have been fighting since they were young in a warrior society.
But oh my God, a young Aes Sedai decided to share her advice with an older one in regards to her warder. Stop the presses." - Elan Tedronai

"A bit OT, Mat lost an eye, Rand a hand, and Perrin is lame." - Balefired-ed2

#65 Jarlaxle

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:05 PM

Quitely walks backward through the door to this thread......[Now this is why I have always loved Aviendha]
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#66 Master Ablar

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:11 PM

Quitely walks backward through the door to this thread......[Now this is why I have always loved Aviendha]


A very wise choice.

I think one of the reasons the Black Tower has become so popular in fandom isn't just that you get to dress in black and set fires with your mind, it's the sense of struggle the Asha'man have. To save the world, they have to embrace the part of themselves that's terrible and destructive. They risk madness to learn how to channel. It's a tremendous sacrifice they make.


#67 TheLagomorph

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 04:10 PM

You asked for it!


Indeed, and thanks for the replies, some v. good points. Allow me to reply to some:

So you don't like realism? I mean every girl is perfectly rational all the time when it comes to boys right? Mmmhmm. Also, she WAS just having fun, it's not like she banged him, or was even necessarily interested. And she knows her own motivations, she can only guess at Rand's. And given his ultimate predicament of three girlfriends, I'm not sure she was far off the mark...

I agree this is a weak point in any case, I was just going through my memories and this came up, it does not hold up well. I seem to recall both Rand and Egwene wanting to forget this particular thing, so you are right.

Elayne liked Rand... Rand liked Elayne... how dare she do something completely unseflish and help set them up. Pretty sure she didn't sell Rand to her or bribe or blackmail either of them. Everyone had free will in that situation, she wanted them to be happy, and, apparently, they are. This is one of the dumbest Egwene criticisms I see repeated over and over.

Is it dumb? I agree no-one was really hurt but there is a callousness and maybe even hubris in planning to tell someone this and then arrange for his pick-up. It is emphasized since Rand actually caught on. Anyway, it goes for Elayne too although I am not sure I would say no to such suggestion in a similar case.

Not her secret to tell. Actually, aren't those her exact words? Are you one of those who thinks everyone should bow and scrape to the Dragon reborn? Elayne knew the Andor needed her, and she decided to do something else, and before that, I don't really see why Rand needed to know where they were. He seemed pretty skeptical they were truly on his side anyway. Probably not someone you'd WANT to trust with that information given his lack of enthusiasm.

I do not think she should scrape and bow, nor that she should necessarily tell him. From her thoughts however it seemed she regarded him more as an enemy, or perhaps competitor, than a friend and this is mostly what I did not like.

Aiel are the most forgiving people?! You realize they still hate Cairhiens for cutting down a tree? (...). As I've mentioned before, contrast that to Avi suggesting Elayne and Nynaeve pay off their toh to Mat and they scoff at the very idea of being hit in any way, and even the simple act of trying to be NICE to him, something they should do anyway, galls them both. If you want disgusting personalities, look to those two.

I was half-joking about the Aiel, hence the 'if you let them whip you'. They are the only ones, however, who can totally wipe a stain/mistake/error from someones record. Completely.
Re the point on Elayne and Nynaeve I completely agree. The poster asked why there was Egwene hate, not Elayne and Nynaeve hate.

Yes that was a wrong-headed motivation, but nothing she said was untrue and Nynaeve admits she was being stupid... At least you're not claiming Egwene raped her.

At least that indeed. Sorry but the rape thing seems a bit of a random here. I do not think Nynaeve admitting her faults excuses Egwene here though.

You'll have to be more specific... I cannot comment on "thoughts", she has lots of them. If you're referring to getting them to follow her... well I don't understand why that was horrible. Talmanes seemed pretty civil about the whole affair, they even made some decent money it seemed.

Again it is not her wanting things, but that she seems to not consider Mat a full person let alone a friend. I'll try to get a quote later. Con: I am not sure if Egwene and Mat actually ever were friends.

First of all, your attempts at being balanced are really getting weak. Almost insulting =(
She ordered them not to... she's the Amyrlin... if you want to argue how silly that was, then fine. But then again she was on the brink of succeeding.

The attempt at being balanced was meant to be weak here. I can imagine this:
Egwene wakes up: Hey guys, why did you go against my orders?
Siuan/Gareth/Gawhine: It seemed things were very hairy and risky. There was no way to make sure you were safe except going in, that is what we did.
Egwene: Well shucks! I had nearly succeeded. Ah well, I can see that you used your judgment (being a famous ex-Amyrlin, general and spoiled prince-ling) and adapted to the situation in difficult night. We really need to get some remote communication systems going to prevent this from happening again.
as a more balanced response to being pulled out of a war zone.

So you think Nynaeve would like to be told she couldn't handle it? Or would like to be pampered, gone easy on, or have someone do her fighting for her? (...) I'm sure neither will forget what happened, and Nynaeve gains much ji for passing.

Saerin called it an outrage and I agree. This has nothing to do with pampering, going easy etc... The Two Rivers and Lan tests were at the end and done by Egwene. Egwene knew what had gone before, an outrage, shameful, vengeful testing and then added this litte tidbit. Sorry, your appeal to "Nynaeve is proud and would want a full testing" feels weak to me in these circumstances.

Your "balance" statement seems stronger than your original statement here.

I agree. The original statement is what came when I asked myself what I did not like about Egwene. The second was when I tried to imagine facing someone who can turn people's lives in different directions, including mine.

This ridiculousness about Nynaeve as some perpetual goodly mother is damn near infuriating. While I'll happily admit that Nynaeve got better as the series went on, she is one of the most self-centred and pompous characters in the book. And it's Egwene, starting at the nightmare incident, when she really starts to reexamine herself and begins to change. She's lies to herself, blames everyone else for all her wrongs, and is prone to violent outbursts. Yes, her motivations are usually for the good of a handful of others, but so are Egwene's. The difference, is that Nynaeve's 'others' are those kids she swore to protect when she left tTW plus a few more, Egwene's 'others' are now all female channelers, those part of the tower and those who are not. Egwene cannot afford patronage to her close friends or those few she grew up with. She has way more people to look out for now.

A sore point ;-). Anyway, I am not saying Nynaeve is a saint. Indeed the point above about her and Elayne apologizing to Mat comes to mind. So a good point here. Still, by and large, Nynaeve is more a healer and Egwene a rather ruthless politician who does not treat her friends like friends. I think, of the top of my head so excuse me for missing bits:
Rand: "You care for my people"
Nynaeve: I care for any who need it"
covers her main trait. Still I can see why you feel Nynaeve can take and maybe deserved (some of?) what was coming to her.


I hope it is still followable without the original text, but it gets too long else. Thanks again for your reply, I thought it was fun anyway and am now at least somewhat more positively (a little) inclined towards Egwene.
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#68 David Selig

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 05:56 PM

Aiel are the most forgiving people?! You realize they still hate Cairhiens for cutting down a tree? They waged a war just to kill a single guy, then basically went home and STILL hate the tree killers for being a part of it. They are not forgiving at all, they are honourable. It's not about being spanked/beaten, it's about fessing up and paying the cost. They could have, and likely would have, beaten Egwene for months had she not pleased them in how she conducted herself. Also, Egwene could have left, gone back to the white tower, without any reprisal and no one would have really cared. They would have dismissed her as another uncouth wetlander with no honour and that'd have been it. But she respected them enough that she had to pay the price for what she knew she did wrong.

As I've mentioned before, contrast that to Avi suggesting Elayne and Nynaeve pay off their toh to Mat and they scoff at the very idea of being hit in any way, and even the simple act of trying to be NICE to him, something they should do anyway, galls them both. If you want disgusting personalities, look to those two.

You are comparing apples and oranges here. Why should Nynaeve and Elayne accept Mat to beat them just because that's the Aiel custom? Neither of those three is Aiel, and this was a really dumb idea anyway. "You two were ungrateful to him so you should allow him to beat you up as compensation.". This doesn't make any sense.

On the other hand, Egwene freely agree to obey the Wise Ones during her training and then repeatedly and intentionally broker her promise to the Wise Ones, which is a really big deal in Randland, especially among the Aiel. Totally different situation.
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#69 lmerickson

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 06:27 PM

You asked for it!


Some reasons why I dislike our young Amyrlin, and some cons for balance:
I do not like the hypocrisy of flirting and giggling with Aram? (the mentally unstable tinker)and then being pissy with Rand. Con.: Stop complaining about a teenage girl having fun and being silly.

So you don't like realism? I mean every girl is perfectly rational all the time when it comes to boys right? Mmmhmm. Also, she WAS just having fun, it's not like she banged him, or was even necessarily interested. And she knows her own motivations, she can only guess at Rand's. And given his ultimate predicament of three girlfriends, I'm not sure she was far off the mark...


Where did he say he didn't like realism? Just because Egwene does something realistic doesn't mean it can't count as a reason to dislike her. If that were true, we'd have to like everybody in the real world because they're all acting realistic.

He basically she said in this circumstance she acted like a hypocrite which is one of the reasons he dislikes her. That can't just be written off as an unfair reason because the reason happens to be realistic. I don't hate Egwene, but there was the scene where Rand tells her he doesn't love her and she thinks to herself (paraphrasing) "Oh, how sweet, he's pretending he doesn't like me so I don't know how hurt he is at losing the most wonderful woman in the world--me." That's a realistic response someone might have, but it still made me want to bonk her on the head.

#70 Rose

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 04:52 AM

I don't hate Egwene, but there was the scene where Rand tells her he doesn't love her and she thinks to herself (paraphrasing) "Oh, how sweet, he's pretending he doesn't like me so I don't know how hurt he is at losing the most wonderful woman in the world--me." That's a realistic response someone might have, but it still made me want to bonk her on the head.

If I recall, Rand thinks more or less the exact same thing about Egwene right before (or after). It made me want to bonk both of them on the head! But then, that happens pretty often to me when I read the Wheel of Time, so I got used to it a while ago ;p
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#71 Misheru

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 02:33 PM

Ok, can a mod come close down this thread now? Thanks mostly everyone in the last page and a half for ignoring the OPs wishes of a non-bitchy-flaming discussion thread.

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#72 Suttree

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 03:12 PM

Ok, can a mod come close down this thread now? Thanks mostly everyone in the last page and a half for ignoring the OPs wishes of a non-bitchy-flaming discussion thread.


Don't feel too bad, they all start heading that direction sooner or later. Honestly I was happy it stayed constructive for as long as it did.
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#73 Misheru

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 03:36 PM

But I thought people had dozens other threads to do that... I just wanted an explanation, not a flame-war *sighs*

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#74 Jon Paul

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 05:50 PM

[. . .]


Dude I miss your posts on this subject. Honestly the Egwene-bashing threads just aren't any fun without your participation. I'm not joking when I say that any thread I open here I always press ctrl + f and search for your name.
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We ran to the sounds of the thunder,
We danced among the lightning bolts,
And tore the world asunder.

#75 csarmi

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 12:39 AM

Well if you want an explanation, here's one:

Rand is the HERO. We get mostly his PoV's at first, then we get mostly his PoV's in every situation he is. We see almost everything from his PoV for a few books. From the PoV of a guy who is going mad.

Lots of people never really manage to see the series from any other PoV, not really. They get stuck there.

Now Egwene dares think bad things about their hero. How COULD SHE?

Conclusion: Egwene = BAD. So let's start finding the reasons why.
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#76 Kael Pyralis

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 04:54 AM


You asked for it!


Some reasons why I dislike our young Amyrlin, and some cons for balance:
I do not like the hypocrisy of flirting and giggling with Aram? (the mentally unstable tinker)and then being pissy with Rand. Con.: Stop complaining about a teenage girl having fun and being silly.

So you don't like realism? I mean every girl is perfectly rational all the time when it comes to boys right? Mmmhmm. Also, she WAS just having fun, it's not like she banged him, or was even necessarily interested. And she knows her own motivations, she can only guess at Rand's. And given his ultimate predicament of three girlfriends, I'm not sure she was far off the mark...


Where did he say he didn't like realism? Just because Egwene does something realistic doesn't mean it can't count as a reason to dislike her. If that were true, we'd have to like everybody in the real world because they're all acting realistic.

He basically she said in this circumstance she acted like a hypocrite which is one of the reasons he dislikes her. That can't just be written off as an unfair reason because the reason happens to be realistic. I don't hate Egwene, but there was the scene where Rand tells her he doesn't love her and she thinks to herself (paraphrasing) "Oh, how sweet, he's pretending he doesn't like me so I don't know how hurt he is at losing the most wonderful woman in the world--me." That's a realistic response someone might have, but it still made me want to bonk her on the head.


Fair enough. If you wish to dislike her as a person based on a rather normal teenage girl reaction. Seems a little harsh though. I was more suggesting you shouldn't like how she's written, or her character based on realism. But I get your point.



Aiel are the most forgiving people?! You realize they still hate Cairhiens for cutting down a tree? They waged a war just to kill a single guy, then basically went home and STILL hate the tree killers for being a part of it. They are not forgiving at all, they are honourable. It's not about being spanked/beaten, it's about fessing up and paying the cost. They could have, and likely would have, beaten Egwene for months had she not pleased them in how she conducted herself. Also, Egwene could have left, gone back to the white tower, without any reprisal and no one would have really cared. They would have dismissed her as another uncouth wetlander with no honour and that'd have been it. But she respected them enough that she had to pay the price for what she knew she did wrong.

As I've mentioned before, contrast that to Avi suggesting Elayne and Nynaeve pay off their toh to Mat and they scoff at the very idea of being hit in any way, and even the simple act of trying to be NICE to him, something they should do anyway, galls them both. If you want disgusting personalities, look to those two.

You are comparing apples and oranges here. Why should Nynaeve and Elayne accept Mat to beat them just because that's the Aiel custom? Neither of those three is Aiel, and this was a really dumb idea anyway. "You two were ungrateful to him so you should allow him to beat you up as compensation.". This doesn't make any sense.

On the other hand, Egwene freely agree to obey the Wise Ones during her training and then repeatedly and intentionally broker her promise to the Wise Ones, which is a really big deal in Randland, especially among the Aiel. Totally different situation.


I didn't necessarily say they had to let mat beat them. I also pointed out just the idea of being nice to him, of repaying him in ANY way galled them -- ANY way. Avi is obviously disappointed in them for it, and everyone else should be too. And I don't even like Mat that much and think that.

Yes Egwene did bad shit. But she confessed to the people who she did bad shit too, and as I pointed out they are not forgiving folk. If they felt she had to pay more than she did to "balance" her honour, they would have done it.

You cannot be overly offended on behalf of characters who have explicitly been apologized too, "paid off", and themselves chosen to let it go. And It was Egwene who decided that settling that matter completely was important to her. When she could easily have walked away from the situation and gone back to the tower she made it right because of the respect she has for them. They told her only she knows how much her honour is worth, and she knew she had to go on. It was those she erred against who chose she was no longer in debt to them.

So no, you cannot say she disrespects them. Her actions say otherwise. You can however see how much disrespect Elayne and Nynaeve have for Mat, or for men in general. Aghast at the very IDEA of making up for a wrong they admitted to.

Plus, Elayne's motivation is to get Avi to respect her. Not to make things right with Mat. I mean come on! And even her motivation to get Avi, supposidly a sister to her, would never get Elayne to go as far as Egwene did. It's quite clear how much more stoic and humble (when appropriate) Egwene is than Elayne.

Edited by Kael Pyralis, 17 March 2012 - 05:13 AM.

"A man who who tended to milking and being the occasional blacksmith is suddenly killing men who have been fighting since they were young in a warrior society.
But oh my God, a young Aes Sedai decided to share her advice with an older one in regards to her warder. Stop the presses." - Elan Tedronai

"A bit OT, Mat lost an eye, Rand a hand, and Perrin is lame." - Balefired-ed2

#77 Kael Pyralis

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 04:56 AM

[. . .]


Dude I miss your posts on this subject. Honestly the Egwene-bashing threads just aren't any fun without your participation. I'm not joking when I say that any thread I open here I always press ctrl + f and search for your name.


We haven't had many Egwene threads in the past while. Likely due to that non hijacking rule... or just the lack of anything to talk about with TOM so far behind us and AMoL so far ahead... And I don't think randsc comments on anything else.
"A man who who tended to milking and being the occasional blacksmith is suddenly killing men who have been fighting since they were young in a warrior society.
But oh my God, a young Aes Sedai decided to share her advice with an older one in regards to her warder. Stop the presses." - Elan Tedronai

"A bit OT, Mat lost an eye, Rand a hand, and Perrin is lame." - Balefired-ed2

#78 David Selig

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 07:45 AM

I didn't necessarily say they had to let mat beat them. I also pointed out just the idea of being nice to him, of repaying him in ANY way galled them -- ANY way.

That applies to Nynaeve, but certainly not to Elayne.

Yes Egwene did bad shit. But she confessed to the people who she did bad shit too, and as I pointed out they are not forgiving folk. If they felt she had to pay more than she did to "balance" her honour, they would have done it.

You cannot be overly offended on behalf of characters who have explicitly been apologized too, "paid off", and themselves chosen to let it go.

Good thing is that I am not offended on behalf of those people then. ON the other hand, I am offended on behalf of Nynaeve and Elayne, who Egwene treated poorly to cover her lies and never even considered apologising for it.

So no, you cannot say she disrespects them. Her actions say otherwise. You can however see how much disrespect Elayne and Nynaeve have for Mat, or for men in general. Aghast at the very IDEA of making up for a wrong they admitted to.

Plus, Elayne's motivation is to get Avi to respect her. Not to make things right with Mat. I mean come on! And even her motivation to get Avi, supposidly a sister to her, would never get Elayne to go as far as Egwene did. It's quite clear how much more stoic and humble (when appropriate) Egwene is than Elayne.

You do realise how ironic this is since Egwene has yet to apologise to Mat and have never even considered doing it, right? Even though she was a much closer friend to him than Nynaeve and Egwene, which makes her ingratitude to him worse at the time he came to rescue them from the Stone dungeons. And as I mentioned before, she never considered apologising to her best friends for bullying them to cover her lies.

Yeah, Elayne apologised to Mat mostly because Avi wanted her to. But later on in ACOS she apologised on her own and was totally sincere.

Not sure where you get the part in bold from. Remember when Elayne had to get naked in front of Taim and his Asha'man, the Sea Folk representatives, Dyelin and the palace servants to get the Wise Ones to perform the first-sister ceremony. It's not a beating, sure, but it's a pretty big deal for a Queen especially.
“Are you still souring milk for a hobby, Faolain?”

#79 Kael Pyralis

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 11:53 AM

Yes Egwene did bad shit. But she confessed to the people who she did bad shit too, and as I pointed out they are not forgiving folk. If they felt she had to pay more than she did to "balance" her honour, they would have done it.

You cannot be overly offended on behalf of characters who have explicitly been apologized too, "paid off", and themselves chosen to let it go.

Good thing is that I am not offended on behalf of those people then. ON the other hand, I am offended on behalf of Nynaeve and Elayne, who Egwene treated poorly to cover her lies and never even considered apologising for it.


You just said...

On the other hand, Egwene freely agree to obey the Wise Ones during her training and then repeatedly and intentionally broker her promise to the Wise Ones, which is a really big deal in Randland, especially among the Aiel. Totally different situation.

Which is what I was replying to. It had nothing to do with Elayne. You're just grasping at straws now. Your point that the Wise One's should still be pissed at Egwene, which is why people don't like her is wrong. Give up the point.

If you want to make a case for how Egwene treats Elayne, then do that.

So no, you cannot say she disrespects them. Her actions say otherwise. You can however see how much disrespect Elayne and Nynaeve have for Mat, or for men in general. Aghast at the very IDEA of making up for a wrong they admitted to.

Plus, Elayne's motivation is to get Avi to respect her. Not to make things right with Mat. I mean come on! And even her motivation to get Avi, supposidly a sister to her, would never get Elayne to go as far as Egwene did. It's quite clear how much more stoic and humble (when appropriate) Egwene is than Elayne.

You do realise how ironic this is since Egwene has yet to apologise to Mat and have never even considered doing it, right? Even though she was a much closer friend to him than Nynaeve and Egwene, which makes her ingratitude to him worse at the time he came to rescue them from the Stone dungeons. And as I mentioned before, she never considered apologising to her best friends for bullying them to cover her lies.

Yeah, Elayne apologised to Mat mostly because Avi wanted her to. But later on in ACOS she apologised on her own and was totally sincere.

Not sure where you get the part in bold from. Remember when Elayne had to get naked in front of Taim and his Asha'man, the Sea Folk representatives, Dyelin and the palace servants to get the Wise Ones to perform the first-sister ceremony. It's not a beating, sure, but it's a pretty big deal for a Queen especially.


Being naked is hardly the same as debasing yourself to someone willingly. Actually, it's exactly the opposite. Elayne whats to show how proud and strong and unflappable she is as queen. If Elayne was beaten, she'd take it stoically I'm sure, but she wouldn't allow someone do it out of respect to another culture (not her own). She doesn't have that sort of respect for others, she just doesn't. She's Andor's queen and that makes her focused. It's not a bad thing, but it is a difference between the girls. Egwene is, by design, more cultured and accepting of people's differences.

And what exactly does Egwene need to apologize to Mat for? The rescue? She wasn't there when her retardedness was made clear to the other two. So you cannot say Egwene is worse when no one has pointed out a wrong she committed a long time ago. So you can't just assume Egwene would have the same awful reaction Nynaeve and Elayne had.

On the other hand, Egwene did give Mat a heartfelt thanks when he bowed to her before they left to hunt the bowl. So when it came to recognizing a good deed on-the-spot from a man, or from mat specifically, Egwene is the winner.

Edited by Kael Pyralis, 17 March 2012 - 11:56 AM.

"A man who who tended to milking and being the occasional blacksmith is suddenly killing men who have been fighting since they were young in a warrior society.
But oh my God, a young Aes Sedai decided to share her advice with an older one in regards to her warder. Stop the presses." - Elan Tedronai

"A bit OT, Mat lost an eye, Rand a hand, and Perrin is lame." - Balefired-ed2

#80 Ala Rubra

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 01:55 PM

On the other hand, Egwene did give Mat a heartfelt thanks when he bowed to her before they left to hunt the bowl. So when it came to recognizing a good deed on-the-spot from a man, or from mat specifically, Egwene is the winner.


Any kind of moral victory there is kind of mitigated by the fact that Egwene, at that time, is using him and planning to use his army (and doing it not by manipulating Mat's negative qualities, but by manipulating his integrity).

Well if you want an explanation, here's one:

Rand is the HERO. We get mostly his PoV's at first, then we get mostly his PoV's in every situation he is. We see almost everything from his PoV for a few books. From the PoV of a guy who is going mad.

Lots of people never really manage to see the series from any other PoV, not really. They get stuck there.

Now Egwene dares think bad things about their hero. How COULD SHE?

Conclusion: Egwene = BAD. So let's start finding the reasons why.


Please stop. You're just making your side look bad.