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The Three Taveren


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#1 Benaire2

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 01:47 AM

Each Taveren in the book tends to have a theme.

Rand would be the Chosen one or the Matyr or a blend of that or even the conqueror (Rand is shown conquering kingdoms, Collecting incurable wounds and fated to die and save/break the world)

Mat would be the Hero (its been referenced so much, also how many Damsels has he rescued [Egwene,Elyane,Nyneve,Aludra and Moraine])

Perrin would be the Leader, Lord, Beloved by the people (awww look at the cute little puppy)

Each has their own skills like, Great general, Wolf Brother and Superman and each leads armies, But how they got there and their basic character are very different.

Would you agree have other opinions?

I would be interested in your thoughts.

Edit Stuff in brakets

Edited by Benaire2, 22 February 2012 - 01:56 AM.


#2 Mr Ares

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 04:20 AM

Rand and Mat are also leaders. Rand and Perrin also are both heroes. Rand being the chosen one is the only one that stands out - but then, that has nothing to do with with him being ta'veren, and everything to do with him being the Dragon Reborn. I don't see Perrin and Mat as being significantly more thematic than other, non-ta'veren characters.

"I have no followers, I have only brothers and sisters, all in the name of cause. People are sheep, you understand me? They can't lead themselves, they need to be led. People buy and sell fear. They worship war, they crave war. But I'm not afraid of their wars, I CREATED WAR! And I think it's time for the masses to wake up, wake up, WAKE UP! And look at this LIE they're living in, man! The world is deteriorating between their toes, and they do nothing about it. They only stand there, they whisper and wonder but never do anything about it! But I've seen it all in my dreams and in my thoughts, and above everything else I understand. This is not the beginning.....it's the end."


#3 Benaire2

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 05:00 AM

Well Rand and Perrin maybe heroes, But in the books the word hero is tied to Mats story all over the place. You get the first hint when Siun mentioned he is just like her uncle who died in a fire saving people. He constantly says heroes do this or that and he isnt a hero but he does it all the same. Hell one of the chapters about him is called "hero in the night". Thom tells his tales painting him the hero, his adventures are known and probably will be sung about (Prince of ravens, Lord of luck blah blah). How many damsels has he rescued braving impregnable fortresses, Legendary towers 6 story buildings. Not for a wife/children/parents, But for friends, promises and people he isnt really sure he likes that much. His arcs tend to showcase how much of a hero he is he does the things you read about the cliche typical hero stuff. I doubt the word hero shows up even 1/10th as often in any of the others arcs. HERO HERO HERO They hammer it into in almost every book after about 3 onwards try it book four and up Mat's arcs they will mention HERO in it.

Rand and Mat are leaders, But lets face it Rand is probably more feared then loved Mat has a army but no land/community. Rand conquers the land takes the army but the land the kingdom tends to go to shit. Perrin is made lord of his land by his people he forged an army as well but his kingdom thrives even in this crappy environment. After the final battle you know his kingdom will grow into a major power. Mat may get lands of his own kingdom later after the story ends but we have yet to see how well he does being a ruler

And Rand is superman but much angrier and meaner and he kills alot and oh and he's insane. He is special. The others are special too but not as special as Rand he is the most special person since King Arthur he is so special he pulls other special people to him. How often have we read that in the books. XXXX you are special if it wasnt for RAND you would be the most special person in a thousand years because you know he is more special then you.

They are all Heroes, Leaders and Special, But each one tends to slide into one of these titles more then the others. Hence they each have a theme their stories tend to focus more on it.

Edited by Benaire2, 22 February 2012 - 05:36 AM.


#4 spoke

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 07:26 AM

I have seen it more like the following

Rand: Destroyer/Conqueror (Destroys current order - subjugates others )
Perrin: Builder/Preserver (Bringer of new stuff - ties in well with being a blacksmith)
Mat: Decider/Gambler (Chooses between Destroyer/Preserver- deals a lot with chance)

#5 FarShainMael

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 08:35 AM

Could be the Trimurti, the Moirai, or perhaps the Norns. I think there's a thread somewhere about this.
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#6 lmerickson

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 05:35 PM

Mat Cauthon is no bloody hero!

There's a lot of different themes you could apply to each of the ta'veren. It's not like trinities are uncommon after all.

I just made this up, but these seem to fit as well:

Rand - Fate (he's bound by the Prophecies and knows somewhat of what he has to face, and what he has to do)
Mat - Luck (this one should be pretty self-evident)
Perrin - Choice (wolf or man, hammer or axe, blacksmith or leader)

#7 Mr Ares

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 08:54 AM

They are all Heroes, Leaders and Special, But each one tends to slide into one of these titles more then the others. Hence they each have a theme their stories tend to focus more on it.

No. Perrin as leader is very weak, for example. Mat is a leader of men - he hasn't built any nations, granted, but that wasn't Perrin's theme, either. Mat is a leader of the Band, and a very respected one. Rand, Egwene and Elayne are all leaders. In what way are the three ta'veren more thematic than other characters? In what way is leadership a theme tied more solidly to Perrin than anyone else? You might be on more solid ground to assert that leadership is a common theme throughout the series. Rand, Mat and Perrin all rise to become leaders, as does Egwene, while Elayne is born to it. We see various approaches to leadership. We see people attempt to avoid the responsibility, to run from it. We see Egwene seize the opportunity. I fail to see leadership as a theme more strongly tied to Perrin than it is to others. Perrin took on the leadership of four villages, he doesn't have a kingdom. Rand has kingdoms, and hasn't always succeeded in caring for them. Mat has an army. Faile is another leader as well, as evidenced by her time with the Shaido. She is also a vital part of Perrin's own succesful leadership. Why is this a more sstrongly developed theme with Perrin than with anyone else? Simple fact is that it isn't.

Mat is heroic, no doubt about it (although he came later to it than the others). Yet we see much the same from all the characters. Rand is widely hated, yet still plans to sacrifice himself at SG despite this. Is that not heroic? And if you can quantify heroism, is it more heroic or less to sacrifice yourself to save a world that hates you or a couple of women who aren't always that nice to you? All you really have for Mat in terms of him being more heroic than the others is that he is called a hero more often. So Mat has more acknowledged heroism. Not necessarily making him more heroic. How is Mat's heroism a more well developed theme than anyone elses?

I'm not even going to touch the "Rand is special" bit as it doesn't relate to anything. I will sum up by saying that I think the themes you focus on are arbitrary. One can assign many themes to each of the characters, but your argument is poorly developed. These themes aren't especially tied to the ta'veren in general, nor specifically to the ones you assign them to. Nor are they even significantly more developed in the cases of your particular choices than they are in other cases.

"I have no followers, I have only brothers and sisters, all in the name of cause. People are sheep, you understand me? They can't lead themselves, they need to be led. People buy and sell fear. They worship war, they crave war. But I'm not afraid of their wars, I CREATED WAR! And I think it's time for the masses to wake up, wake up, WAKE UP! And look at this LIE they're living in, man! The world is deteriorating between their toes, and they do nothing about it. They only stand there, they whisper and wonder but never do anything about it! But I've seen it all in my dreams and in my thoughts, and above everything else I understand. This is not the beginning.....it's the end."


#8 Revim

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 07:29 PM

Wot borrows heavily from world mythologies. I see the main three as mostly Norse.

Mat is a mix of Odin and Loki, predominantly Odin. (One eye, ravens, knowledge - Odin. Trickster -Loki.)

Perrin is Weland and Thor. (Smith - Weland. Huge strength & a magic hammer - Thor.)

All I've been able to peg Rand as is Tyr (one hand, brings justice.) But I'm sure there'll be a second god who fits him too.

#9 futurehermit

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 08:57 AM

What about Heimdall for Mat? -- Heimdall owns the horn Gjall and blowing the horn is said to signal the start of Ragnarok.

Edited by futurehermit, 26 February 2012 - 08:59 AM.