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Was the word/name 'Merrilor' ever mentioned in books 1-11? Even once?


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#21 The Fisher King

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 01:58 PM

LOL!!! - Ok, Ok, I give. Ill go along. I Third It!!!


Fish

#22 Dreggs Morlock

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 12:56 PM

FoM is not on the map, even in ToM. I don't know about anyone else, but that was ... irritating! I kept itching to know exactly where this meeting place was taking place, and frustrated that it wasn't important to some back-story from yesteryear. I at first thought it was the fields Luckers mentioned previously, so much so that I pulled out my torn up copy of EotW to check.

BS and Team Jordan could have made sure FoM was on the map for ToM for dufuses like me, it would have been gradifying. There is such a huge blank area on the map, so I don't know if it closer to the White Tower or to the borderlands. THIS is what frosts me.

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#23 The Fisher King

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 01:32 PM

FoM is not on the map, even in ToM. I don't know about anyone else, but that was ... irritating! I kept itching to know exactly where this meeting place was taking place, and frustrated that it wasn't important to some back-story from yesteryear. I at first thought it was the fields Luckers mentioned previously, so much so that I pulled out my torn up copy of EotW to check.

BS and Team Jordan could have made sure FoM was on the map for ToM for dufuses like me, it would have been gradifying. There is such a huge blank area on the map, so I don't know if it closer to the White Tower or to the borderlands. THIS is what frosts me.


Great post. Just how I feel.


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#24 Sephie

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 05:22 PM

Not even on the ToM map...I hadn't even looked. That's ridiculous.

It BETTER be on the map of the last f***ing book, though. And I'll be expecting some awesome Trolloc Wars history, too.

(A thought though: possibly, its location is CRITICAL to the story, and we don't know that yet. near the borderlands, all the armies of the light represented, or near enough... *shrugs* It's what I'd do, not put the location on the map because KNOWING the location would spawn some uber-fans with too much time on their hands ; ) theories that hit too close to home.)
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#25 Terez

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 06:52 PM

Fish, Gawyn killed two Warders as early as TSR. Oh, and RJ told us that there were ways of blocking Traveling. He didn't incorporate it into the story until this stage, but he did tell us.

In a way, you can say he did incorporate it into the story, by foreshadowing the strangeness of building a wall around the Black Tower. It was totally pointless without a way to block gateways, and Logain did say it was pointless.

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#26 Didgya

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 09:01 PM

Never thought much about the fields before but Luckers is right about a better foreshadowed name with meaning. Another point that jars the classic WOT reader is the naming of "new" things, bloodknives, dreamspike, etc... They are...well just dorky :baalzamon:
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#27 The Fisher King

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 10:27 PM

Never thought much about the fields before but Luckers is right about a better foreshadowed name with meaning. Another point that jars the classic WOT reader is the naming of "new" things, bloodknives, dreamspike, etc... They are...well just dorky :baalzamon:


That is all exacly what Ive been saying...which is why I started this thread.


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#28 Torn Shadow

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 10:59 PM

Does anyone know how many of the names BS made up and how many were in fact left from the notes, because there are some pretty cheesy names across the entire series if you stop to think about it?

Also, the field came out of the blue. Fortunately, so has pretty much every other major place where something serious has happened that was not a major city.

Edited by Torn Shadow, 24 February 2012 - 11:05 PM.


#29 Sid

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 05:22 PM

The Fields of Merrilor didn't strike me as anything off-track at all when I read it, even though (unfortunately) I can never completely shake the part of me that scrutinizes passages in TGS and ToM for stuff that seems out of whack. Obviously I'm not going to be right every time but this didn't make so much as a blip on the radar.

I'm betting a meeting place as crucial as this will likely be would have been named in the notes and outlines.

Egwene shook her head. However much everything else changed, Mat just never would.


#30 Sharaman

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 11:34 PM

Ingtar (?) mentioned that as populations dwindled, vast tracts were untenanted and unclaimed by any kingdom. We've seen journeys through that in the first couple of books. We've also heard references to the bits between kingdoms several times. No reason why the FoM in particular would be mentioned earlier. It's one of dozen/ hundreds (?) of locations footnoted by historians and uninhabited but known.

The Dreamspike foreshadowing I think was given off-stage by RJ mentioning that in Travel-enabled battles there were ways (plural) to interdict Travel. Also as pointed out above, the walls around the BT, weren't just an exercise to train troops in using Saidin. In passing, you'd expect LTT to guess about this and diagnose the method if he tries even once to go there in TAR - Mesaana did recognise it straight off and LTT was a general, unlike her. He may also know ways around it, apart from Perrin's method.

#31 Altonahk

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 07:16 PM

My guess is that RJ picked a basic location, northern Shainar and closish to the Gap, and BS found it strange to tell Egwyne to meet him without giving her an exact location. So he just made up a likely sounding name, FoM, for an otherwise insignificant location.

#32 Bob T Dwarf

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 08:10 PM

I'm trying to remember and can't.

Was Maradon ever mentioned before Ituralde made his stand there? Before Rand went out and cut down Shadowspawn there like they were wheat?

Was Ebou Dar mentioned before the Wonder Girls went there? Was there any reason to mention it before they went there?

Kinda the same thing with the Field of Merrilor. Had we heard of Falme before it became the only place known throughout history where the Heroes of the Horn have ever made an appearance, as a group, on the whole planet? Other than earlier in that book, that is.

In fact the whole series has involved mostly going to new and unheard of places where BIG DOINGS take place.

As of now, nothing has happened at Merrilor other than most of the White Hats and more than a few of the Black Hats have gathered there, and we've known about it now for well over a year. So, Merrilor isn't really a sudden and unexpected place for something momentous to happen, now is it?

And, since this is King Arthur redux, the really definitive stuff will take place at Caemlyn ( Camlann ), anyway.

Edited by Bob T Dwarf, 02 March 2012 - 08:21 PM.

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#33 Suttree

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 08:14 PM

Was Maradon ever mentioned before Ituralde made his stand there? Before Rand went out and cut down Shadowspawn there like they were wheat?


Yes

Was Ebou Dar mentioned before the Wonder Girls went there? Was there any reason to mention it before they went there?


Yes

Kinda the same thing with the Field of Merrilor.



I don't have a problem with it but it isn't really the same.
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#34 Bob T Dwarf

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 09:19 PM


Was Maradon ever mentioned before Ituralde made his stand there? Before Rand went out and cut down Shadowspawn there like they were wheat?


Yes

Was Ebou Dar mentioned before the Wonder Girls went there? Was there any reason to mention it before they went there?


Yes

Kinda the same thing with the Field of Merrilor.



I don't have a problem with it but it isn't really the same.


Not doubting your assertions, but a citation or three would be welcome.
What I say is, what you believe to be true is not always true. What you think is going to happen is not always going to happen. That has been demonstrated time and again in THE WHEEL OF TIME. You could call those two statements one of the themes of the books. ... If the answer is easy, consider the possibility that you asked the wrong question. - Robert Jordan

#35 Suttree

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 09:29 PM



Was Maradon ever mentioned before Ituralde made his stand there? Before Rand went out and cut down Shadowspawn there like they were wheat?


Yes

Was Ebou Dar mentioned before the Wonder Girls went there? Was there any reason to mention it before they went there?


Yes

Kinda the same thing with the Field of Merrilor.



I don't have a problem with it but it isn't really the same.


Not doubting your assertions, but a citation or three would be welcome.


http://idealseek.no-...k.cgi?q=maradon

http://idealseek.no-....cgi?q=ebou dar

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#36 yoniy0

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 02:49 AM

Let me expand Sutree's post. Maradon, Ebou Dar and Falme are all on the map.
Perrin and Egwene made a story to explain their presence on the way to Caemlyn (one which the wolves immediately knew as false), and they made sure to mention not being to Maradon (they claimed to be Saldean) in case they meet someone who knows it (they didn't think of there being a Queen rather than a King, which was funny).
I think Thom tried to convince Rand and Mat that they might go to Ebou Dar, but I'm not sure. Either way, it was mentioned in passing long before the wondergirls used Need in the Dream World.
And Falme is mentioned by Verin when she, Siuan and Moiraine discussed the Dark Prophecy in the beginning of TGH (as the seat of the Watchers). You can hardly fault the scene of the second book's climax for not appearing in the first (outside of the map, that is), but it was mentioned long before Fain fled there.

These are all good examples of RJ's world-building. I'm sure you could find some others, but this is the rule, I think. However, I'm sure RJ had many notes of places we've never heard of, and my personal guess is that this is an instance where Brandon just picked one of them out to use as a meeting ground. I'm not sure if we could fault him for not realizing he'd need it when he wrote TGS, or for not picking one of which we've already heard. Likely, he thought that it would be better this way -- allowing us to learn more of the Wheel than if he'd chosen the black hills or something similar.
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#37 Terez

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 03:47 AM

To a degree I don't understand Merrilor when they could have used Bekkar--it's within marching distance of the Two Rivers, and as such likely in the Caralain Grass. It has awesome throwbacks to the beginning of the series--for me, Moiraine's Manetheren story was THE moment when I knew I loved the Wheel--and it would have lent itself to the chapter title 'The Field of Blood', which is, lets be honest, awesome.

As we have discussed, Talidar would have been a good one too. Especially since it seems close by. I can understand why some think this is a Brandon-added reference to Tolkien, though.

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RJ obviously planned the reference here—Minas Tirith is on a river like Tar Valon, and is close to a mountain like Dragonmount—but he never mentioned Merrilor before. Tar Valon is also a Camlann parallel (since the word 'camlann' means 'crooked riverbank'), and Merrilor is supposedly just north of Tar Valon.

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Let me expand Sutree's post. Maradon, Ebou Dar and Falme are all on the map.
Perrin and Egwene made a story to explain their presence on the way to Caemlyn (one which the wolves immediately knew as false), and they made sure to mention not being to Maradon (they claimed to be Saldean) in case they meet someone who knows it (they didn't think of there being a Queen rather than a King, which was funny).

They also didn't seem to consider that they might not look anything like Saldaeans.

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#38 Bob T Dwarf

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 06:17 AM

They also didn't seem to consider that they might not look anything like Saldaeans.


There's another commonplace anomaly with the series. There's lots of exposition about how the Aiel were isolated and inbred, resulting in a specific genotype. Saldaeans, Andorian, Cairheinen, etc. not so. Yet each has specific characteristics that anyone would either simply recognize as "foreign" or specific to their place of origin if they'd traveled widely.

Some of it relates to clothing, but if you took an Aiel and dressed him as a Cairheinen, would anybody know the difference at-a-glance, given that the predominant superstition in the Wetlands is that all Aiel are "dark-eyed"? If we took a blonde Frenchman and dressed him in something ethnically Swedish, would anyone know just by looking at him that he was French? And, why is the predominant superstition that ALL Swedes are blonde?

Yet somehow, Perrin and Egwene are supposed to realize that they could never pass as Saldaean. How? Does everybody in Saldaea have a prominent hooked nose? Why? They have a decent road system that connects them to the rest of the world. They trade and travel widely. Yet they somehow have their own inbred genotype?

Edited by Bob T Dwarf, 03 March 2012 - 06:19 AM.

What I say is, what you believe to be true is not always true. What you think is going to happen is not always going to happen. That has been demonstrated time and again in THE WHEEL OF TIME. You could call those two statements one of the themes of the books. ... If the answer is easy, consider the possibility that you asked the wrong question. - Robert Jordan

#39 yoniy0

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 10:11 AM

It surely is odd that the different countries has such strange accents and appearances (what with the Breaking, followed by the Trolloc Wars, Hawkwing's conquest and the Hundred Years War), but that's the way of Randland. Odd accents were the first thing Rand noticed when he left the TR, so Perrin and Egwene should've realized that they would never pass as Saldaeans, not if they meet anyone who's actually been to Saldaea. The best lies have a lot of truth in them, so the Mountains of Mist would probably have been a better idea.

Nevertheless, none of it would've fooled the wolves, of course. My point was, it's funny when Perrin goes on about the King.
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#40 Terez

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 07:10 PM

The foreshadowing is nice too, especially since Perrin was the one going on about the King bit. Mr. Broken Crown himself, lol.

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I kind of wish the last book was written by Terez. I would probably have to spend weeks looking for a damn ending and then decrypting it, but no doubt it would be perfectly thought out. :wink: