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abortion and obamacare


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#1 Hallow

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 06:13 AM

Something similar (or at least related) to this is happening in Norway right now. Traditionally, doctors with objections to abortion could refuse to refer their patients to abortion clinics. Now the state has clarified the rules slightly to directly say that this is illegal. Personally I was fairly shocked to see that they were doing this (refusing to refer patients) in the first place and am happy something is being done about it. Religion has no place in medicine and science, just like science has no place in religion.
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#2 SinisterDeath

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 06:31 AM

And, for American Catholics, how do you feel about this?(the contraception mandate)


I'm a (trad) Catholic in America and basically I feel this is an utter slap in the face and a very deliberate trampling of the 1st Amendment. The United State Bishops have issued a statement about this which can be read here. I'm not a lawyer or Constitutional expert but I don't see how this law could be upheld. Even with the new "accommodation" released earlier (which is no accommodation at all, only a re-wording of the original mandate) it still reeks. And, this is important, the mandate doesn't just cover contraception but abortifacients. That's the main point everyone is missing.
Hope this helped.


So, you'd also be against health insurers from allowing things like prevenetative medicines to help.. prevent diseases like say.. vacines? Or perhaps insurance that would help with physical therapy, or even dieiting to help prevent personal injury or diabetes? I mean, as far as contraceptives go, its preventative. The abortion part is different, but still irrelevant.

And if you think people go to hell for having an Abortion.
So what?
Your not God, nor are you supposed to Judge them.
I'm pretty sure it says something like that in the bible.

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#3 QuietAiel

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 06:57 AM

The science shows that the aborted fetus is human. It is impossible for it to not be human. It has a different genetic makeup than its mom, a different fingerprint, sometimes has a different blood type and so on. It is manifestly not the mother in every way it is possible to measure such a thing, and therefore it is a separate being even though wholly dependent on its mother to live. At 8 weeks, the child has a heart beat, recognizable brain activity, can recoil from pain. Those are human actions and reactions. There is even video out there of a child in the womb trying to avoid the vacuum that is used in some of those procedures; I got sick after that one. Further, after 23 or 24 weeks, the baby can survive without its mom. It needs help to do so, but so does everyone who has ever had major injury, cancer, heart attack, stroke, or been in a major wreck and so forth. After that time you're definitely killing something that could have lived. So, religion and science line up - both indicate that the unborn child is in fact a human.

#4 QuietAiel

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 07:28 AM

So, you'd also be against health insurers from allowing things like prevenetative medicines to help.. prevent diseases like say.. vacines? Or perhaps insurance that would help with physical therapy, or even dieiting to help prevent personal injury or diabetes? I mean, as far as contraceptives go, its preventative. The abortion part is different, but still irrelevant.

And if you think people go to hell for having an Abortion.
So what?
Your not God, nor are you supposed to Judge them.
I'm pretty sure it says something like that in the bible.


There is only one unforgivable sin, and abortion ain't it. That's a disingenuous way of interpreting what the pro-life and in particular the Christian pro-life movement says, though no doubt some outliers have said that. Abortion is murder, pure and simple. Vaccines and the like are not. I would argue that contraceptives are not murder either, but I know the Catholics do not agree with that as a whole. If Planned Parenthood would stop performing and encouraging abortion as an alternative, I doubt many people would have a lot of problems with what they do.

The Bible says judge not, lest you be judged, for with the same measure you use, it will be measured unto you. It is a caution about checking your own life, motives and facts before judging, not a prohibition against all judgment. The place I feel humans are really out of line is in saying "this person is in heaven and that one is in hell" because we don't know the hearts of people at the point of death. It is flatly impossible to go through life, even life well-lived, without judging. Therefore, we have a ground rule for how to do it. :)

#5 Jon Paul

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 05:29 PM

So, you'd also be against health insurers from allowing things like prevenetative medicines to help.. prevent diseases like say.. vacines? Or perhaps insurance that would help with physical therapy, or even dieiting to help prevent personal injury or diabetes? I mean, as far as contraceptives go, its preventative. The abortion part is different, but still irrelevant.


Pregnancy is not a disease. The contempt you have for motherhood and pregnancy is absolutely disgusting. But in no way surprising considering how far modern society has fallen.
We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
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#6 SinisterDeath

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 06:04 PM

So, you'd also be against health insurers from allowing things like prevenetative medicines to help.. prevent diseases like say.. vacines? Or perhaps insurance that would help with physical therapy, or even dieiting to help prevent personal injury or diabetes? I mean, as far as contraceptives go, its preventative. The abortion part is different, but still irrelevant.


Pregnancy is not a disease. The contempt you have for motherhood and pregnancy is absolutely disgusting. But in no way surprising considering how far modern society has fallen.


Say that in 20 years when the population hits 10 Billion, becuase no one is willing to teach children the ramifications of unprotected sex.


And Not every preventative measure out there is for a DISEASE. There are 'conditions', Pregnancy is one of them. Some Conditions are not 'diseases' simply something, a person Goes through, Sometimes medication can stop it,prevent it, or make it better.

Why do you think we have PRE-NATAL HEALTH CARE.
Should health insuraners there for NOT care about PRE-NATAL- HEALTH because its ...
NOT A DISEASE?!

Edited by SinisterDeath, 11 February 2012 - 06:05 PM.

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#7 Hallow

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 02:29 AM

I've got a question to the "Abortion is murder" types here. Would you treat a woman who had an abortion the same way as a man who killed his ten year old son?

I'm curious.
"HAIL THE MARINES!"
- Heavies of the Bonehunters

"I saw in their faces the erosion of her will, and they bore it. They bore it as they did all else. These Malazans, they shame the gods themselves..."
— Aranict

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#8 Jon Paul

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 05:57 AM

I've got a question to the "Abortion is murder" types here. Would you treat a woman who had an abortion the same way as a man who killed his ten year old son?

I'm curious.


A woman killing her child in the womb is just as evil as a man murdering his ten year old son.
We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
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We danced among the lightning bolts,
And tore the world asunder.

#9 Hallow

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 06:11 AM


I've got a question to the "Abortion is murder" types here. Would you treat a woman who had an abortion the same way as a man who killed his ten year old son?

I'm curious.


A woman killing her child in the womb is just as evil as a man murdering his ten year old son.


And you would treat this woman with as much disgust and vehemence as you would the man who murdered his son then I assume?

I just find it amusing when people (and there are a lot of these) scream "Abortion is murder" but have no problem with being around or even being friends with people who have had an abortion. I don't agree with the point of view in the slightest but if you believe something then at least be consistent about it. (Not saying this applies to you btw).
"HAIL THE MARINES!"
- Heavies of the Bonehunters

"I saw in their faces the erosion of her will, and they bore it. They bore it as they did all else. These Malazans, they shame the gods themselves..."
— Aranict

Debates & Discussions Moderator. PM me if you have any questions.

#10 Azrael Maravaile

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 08:41 PM

In an effort to not hijack the catholic topic with an abortion debate, I decided to throw my two cents in here.

Personally I see no problem with them not giving waivers to catholic organizations on contraceptives and things like the "morning after" pill. I see the outrage by catholic organizations over this to be completely hypocritical. Many of these same organizations were praising the health care bill when they thought they would not have to follow all of the parts of it. Basically they were saying that it is okay for a private business owner to have to cover these things as long as they didn't have to. Either everyone should have to do it, or no one should...

With that being said, I must say that I DO disagree that organizations should be forced to cover these things as part of their health care package. There is a world of difference between someone saying "abortion(or the morning after pill, or contraceptives) is legal so I should be able to get one" and "they are legal so my employer should have to pay for me to get them"

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#11 SinisterDeath

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 08:49 PM

Thanks for doing this Azrael, probably wouldn't hurt to have a mod throw in those other posts here.

That said, I don't see the big 'deal' with health-care packages having things in it, People WON'T use, (specifically the catholic ones)most of that money is arbitary anyways. Just because you specifically pay into a health-insurance policy that supports abortion, doesn't mean your cash actually does that.
Its probably paying a CEO's bonus.

Heres an example.
When I went to college, I got $3,000 from the government.
I choose to believe, that $3,000 went to buying my Laptop (that Ineeded for the classes) over the Books, or paying for just 'being' there. I choose to believe, my loans went into payign everythign else, and that the laptop, was paid in full, donewith, ect.
Does it matter which money went where when its all pooled together? nope, not at all.

And the whole contraceptive part on the catholic part, is just really getting old and outdated.
People have sex.
Get over it.
Married people have sex.
They use contraceptives, becuase who can afford to have 10 kids?

And while I think Bill Maher is very left-wing very anti-religion, he made a very good point the other night.

Contraceptives?
Catholics, Those prevent ABORTIONS.

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#12 Graendals favourite

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 09:08 PM

Thanks for doing this Azrael, probably wouldn't hurt to have a mod throw in those other posts here.


Good idea, I'll just find a proper cut-off point.

There, the first post that didn't mention abortion remained. The moving apparently respects time-stamps, but not much to be done about that.

Edited by Graendals favourite, 12 February 2012 - 09:16 PM.

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#13 Jon Paul

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 10:46 PM

And the whole contraceptive part on the catholic part, is just really getting old and outdated.
People have sex.
Get over it.
Married people have sex.
They use contraceptives, becuase who can afford to have 10 kids?

And while I think Bill Maher is very left-wing very anti-religion, he made a very good point the other night.

Contraceptives?
Catholics, Those prevent ABORTIONS.


This is working from the disordered viewpoint that sex is about pleasure. The orgasm is not the end of sex. The natural end of sex is procreation. To disrupt that by use of contraception is evil. It's perverting the marital act. Don't want ten kids? Don't have sex. I have enough hope in humanity that a man wont have sex every time he has an erection.

Contraception prevents abortion.. whilst destroying the integrity of marriage, which is the heart of a healthy society, and also lures people into a false and perverted view on human sexuality.

And I don't care if 99.9% of American "Catholics" as using contraception. Our religion isn't a democracy, our doctrines and dogma are not decided by popular opinion. 99.9% of American "Catholics" employing contraception just means 99.9% of American "Catholics" are on a solid road to hell.
We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
We ran to the sounds of the thunder,
We danced among the lightning bolts,
And tore the world asunder.

#14 SinisterDeath

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 11:00 PM

And the whole contraceptive part on the catholic part, is just really getting old and outdated.
People have sex.
Get over it.
Married people have sex.
They use contraceptives, becuase who can afford to have 10 kids?

And while I think Bill Maher is very left-wing very anti-religion, he made a very good point the other night.

Contraceptives?
Catholics, Those prevent ABORTIONS.


This is working from the disordered viewpoint that sex is about pleasure. The orgasm is not the end of sex. The natural end of sex is procreation. To disrupt that by use of contraception is evil. It's perverting the marital act. Don't want ten kids? Don't have sex. I have enough hope in humanity that a man wont have sex every time he has an erection.

Contraception prevents abortion.. whilst destroying the integrity of marriage, which is the heart of a healthy society, and also lures people into a false and perverted view on human sexuality.

And I don't care if 99.9% of American "Catholics" as using contraception. Our religion isn't a democracy, our doctrines and dogma are not decided by popular opinion. 99.9% of American "Catholics" employing contraception just means 99.9% of American "Catholics" are on a solid road to hell.


By this logic, Every man is a Mass Murderer.
Everytime a man Masturbates.
He kills Thousands.
Every teenager growing up with a wet Dream?
They just manslaughtered millions.

And they all go to hell.

Thats effectively what you are saying.

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#15 Jon Paul

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 11:14 PM

Thats effectively what you are saying.


No it's not. A man who masturbates isn't going to hell because he murdered someone.. that's impossible. He's going to hell for perverting the act of sex by spilling his seed outside of the marital embrace. Yes masturbation is a mortal sin. Nocturnal emissions (wet dreams) are not mortal sins. You're not going to hell for something you can't control in your sleep.
We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
We ran to the sounds of the thunder,
We danced among the lightning bolts,
And tore the world asunder.

#16 Azrael Maravaile

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 12:05 AM

Jon Paul, at the risk of hijacking my hijacked thought... I would refer you to Romans chapter 3 when you are talking about people going to hell for using contraceptives

“When I disagree with a rational man, I let reality be our final arbiter; if I am right, he will learn; if I am wrong, I will; one of us will win, but both will profit.”


~Ayn Rand


#17 Azrael Maravaile

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 01:49 AM

Sinister,

I also do not see a problem with health care companies offering services some people wont use... But it becomes a problem when people are forced into paying for it. As an analogy...

Lets say I am a vegetarian, and I go to mcdonalds and order a salad. The clerk tells me If I want to eat there I have to pay for a hamburger as well, even If I am not going to eat it. And if I decide that I don't want to eat there the government is going to fine me and give the money to mcdonalds to pay for a hamburger for someone else. Same situation, dummied down for convenience

“When I disagree with a rational man, I let reality be our final arbiter; if I am right, he will learn; if I am wrong, I will; one of us will win, but both will profit.”


~Ayn Rand


#18 Azrael Maravaile

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 01:49 AM

Sinister,

I also do not see a problem with health care companies offering services some people wont use... But it becomes a problem when people are forced into paying for it. As an analogy...

Lets say I am a vegetarian, and I go to mcdonalds and order a salad. The clerk tells me If I want to eat there I have to pay for a hamburger as well, even If I am not going to eat it. And if I decide that I don't want to eat there the government is going to fine me and give the money to mcdonalds to pay for a hamburger for someone else. Same situation, dummied down for convenience

“When I disagree with a rational man, I let reality be our final arbiter; if I am right, he will learn; if I am wrong, I will; one of us will win, but both will profit.”


~Ayn Rand


#19 Jon Paul

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 03:30 AM

I would refer you to Romans chapter 3 when you are talking about people going to hell for using contraceptives


Why? My own sinfulness has nothing to do with others risking their immortal souls by committing sinful acts. I'm well aware of my own wretchedness. That's why I rely on the Sacraments.
We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
We ran to the sounds of the thunder,
We danced among the lightning bolts,
And tore the world asunder.

#20 Azrael Maravaile

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 04:01 AM

@jon paul, the romans thing was not a comment on your wretchedness, although I suppose that is the most famous quote from romans. My point was about the law.. or doctrine if you will... You or I could follow every doctrine set forth by the church on how a person is supposed to behave and will still go to hell without true faith. So claiming that by not following church dogma is sending someone to hell contradicts what the central tenant of your faith says:
romans 3:20,27-28

20 For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are. 27 Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith. 28 So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.


“When I disagree with a rational man, I let reality be our final arbiter; if I am right, he will learn; if I am wrong, I will; one of us will win, but both will profit.”


~Ayn Rand