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Week 5: Mat vs. Moridin


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Poll: Week 5: Mat vs. Moridin (168 member(s) have cast votes)

Who will win?

  1. Voted Mat (113 votes [67.26%])

    Percentage of vote: 67.26%

  2. Moridin (55 votes [32.74%])

    Percentage of vote: 32.74%

Vote

#21 Luckers

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 07:52 AM

Lightning, which is the discharge of electrons, is much like a stone being thrown. You can cause it to happen without touching where it strikes (at least you can if you can channel). This is how Rahvin kills Mat, and how Cyndane manages to hurt Alivia... the question is, would Moridin have the cleverness to figure out this weakness and exploit it.

His previous fights in the series say no, to me.

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#22 vanceme

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 08:10 AM


to my mind... its based on a simple question... does mat's medallion block the true power? if yes, mat, easy win... if no, moridin easy win... and, surprise surprise, we have no way to tell which is the case...


Yup. That was the crux for me too, and no way to write it and avoid answering the question, so I flipped a coin. :)


Brilliant, Luckers. Brilliant.

#23 Edgetho

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 08:28 AM




to my mind... its based on a simple question... does mat's medallion block the true power? if yes, mat, easy win... if no, moridin easy win... and, surprise surprise, we have no way to tell which is the case...


Yup. That was the crux for me too, and no way to write it and avoid answering the question, so I flipped a coin. :)


Hmm, so it seems that Mat is lucky enough that your coin landed in such a way as to make him the winner in your write-up? *mind blown* :mellow:


What's worse is it landed on the edge a thousand times before granting me the answer. Bloody ta'veren.


Ooh, I hate it when that happens. Maybe next time try rolling a die. Still, I don't think the medallion would protect him. Sure, it obviously works fine on Saidar most of the time, and, as demonstrated in Caemlyn, it could not save him from Saidin. But, when Rand notices Mat smoldering on the ground, he notes not that the medallion had no effect on the male half of the Source, but that it could not stop a man's channeling. I think that's important. Remember, in Salidar, Aran'gar/Halima (Balthamel reborn) also uses Saidin on Mat, but this time the medallion protects him. I know betting money against Mat is a bad idea, but I'd lay a wager that the medallion doesn't care so much what kind of power is being used, but rather who is using it - he wanted to be protected from women who could channel, and that is exactly what he got. To my mind, a woman wielding the true source might not be able to touch Mat, but Moridin can. And if he can, well, Mat's luck gets better the more random things are, and Moridin using the power to unscrew the poor man's head by the ears doesn't sound all that random to me. In summarium, anything Rahvin can do, Moridin can do better.

#24 sleepinghour

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 09:13 AM

Still, I don't think the medallion would protect him. Sure, it obviously works fine on Saidar most of the time, and, as demonstrated in Caemlyn, it could not save him from Saidin. But, when Rand notices Mat smoldering on the ground, he notes not that the medallion had no effect on the male half of the Source, but that it could not stop a man's channeling. I think that's important. Remember, in Salidar, Aran'gar/Halima (Balthamel reborn) also uses Saidin on Mat, but this time the medallion protects him. I know betting money against Mat is a bad idea, but I'd lay a wager that the medallion doesn't care so much what kind of power is being used, but rather who is using it - he wanted to be protected from women who could channel, and that is exactly what he got.

Rand doesn't know the medallion doesn't protect against indirect weaves, so he assumes it's because it was saidin. This is not the case, as the episode with Halima proves. The reason Rahvin managed to kill Mat in Caemlyn is that lightning counts as an indirect weave. So the medallion protects again saidin too, but anyone can get past it by using an indirect weave. They can pick up a chair with flows of Air and throw the chair on Mat; the chair is not part of the weave. Or they can simply blow up the ground under Mat.

Edited by sleepinghour, 13 February 2012 - 09:15 AM.


#25 g o i

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 09:14 AM

yay matt is winning for now and realy the only reason rahvin killed matt was because matt needed to die for some unknow reason and rahvin was set for a powerfull balefire to the face
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#26 Slevac

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 05:42 PM

Lightning, which is the discharge of electrons, is much like a stone being thrown. You can cause it to happen without touching where it strikes (at least you can if you can channel). This is how Rahvin kills Mat, and how Cyndane manages to hurt Alivia... the question is, would Moridin have the cleverness to figure out this weakness and exploit it.

His previous fights in the series say no, to me.


If I remember correctly though, the last time we really saw him fight was as Ishmael. Moridin seems to be much more cool and calculating. He's spent the last how many books patiently playing everyone against each other instead of getting directly involved. I'd be willing the bet that and man who is playing both sides of the board is clever enough to attack Mat indirectly.

And another thought: what if they were to meet in the blight near Shayol Ghul, which seems more likely? We've seen that the Dark One's influence can reduce the effectiveness of weaves and changing the workings of the pattern. Who is to say that the foxhead or even Mat's luck would work the same in that situation?

yay matt is winning for now and realy the only reason rahvin killed matt was because matt needed to die for some unknow reason and rahvin was set for a powerfull balefire to the face


Not necessarily true. Mat's prophesied death may have been his hanging beneath the Tree of Life. Dying in Caemlyn could have just been dying in Caemlyn.

Edited by Slevac, 13 February 2012 - 05:57 PM.

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#27 Ishmael Forsaken

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 06:40 PM

Mat wins because he's Mat bloody Cauthon. The baddest dude ever to wear an Outlaw Josie Wales hat. The only man Mat would ever have to face, living or dead, fictional or real is one Chuck Norris. And that meeting would cause the universe to implode. Luck vs. Fist.

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#28 Ishmael Forsaken

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 06:41 PM

Mat wins because he's Mat bloody Cauthon. The baddest dude ever to wear an Outlaw Josie Wales hat. The only man Mat would ever have to fear facing, living or dead, fictional or real is one Chuck Norris. And that meeting would cause the universe to implode. Luck vs. Fist.


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#29 mark

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 08:45 PM


Lightning, which is the discharge of electrons, is much like a stone being thrown. You can cause it to happen without touching where it strikes (at least you can if you can channel). This is how Rahvin kills Mat, and how Cyndane manages to hurt Alivia... the question is, would Moridin have the cleverness to figure out this weakness and exploit it.

His previous fights in the series say no, to me.


If I remember correctly though, the last time we really saw him fight was as Ishmael. Moridin seems to be much more cool and calculating. He's spent the last how many books patiently playing everyone against each other instead of getting directly involved. I'd be willing the bet that and man who is playing both sides of the board is clever enough to attack Mat indirectly.

And another thought: what if they were to meet in the blight near Shayol Ghul, which seems more likely? We've seen that the Dark One's influence can reduce the effectiveness of weaves and changing the workings of the pattern. Who is to say that the foxhead or even Mat's luck would work the same in that situation?

yay matt is winning for now and realy the only reason rahvin killed matt was because matt needed to die for some unknow reason and rahvin was set for a powerfull balefire to the face


Not necessarily true. Mat's prophesied death may have been his hanging beneath the Tree of Life. Dying in Caemlyn could have just been dying in Caemlyn.


RJ said that mat didnt die in rhuidean... so mats death in caemlyn was to "die and live again" as per the prophecy...

and for the medallion, if it doesnt block the TP, mat would go squish like at dumais wells... if it does, the time for moridin to think about attacking indirectly, would be plenty for mat to knife/ashendari him... still a toss up...

moridin might think of attacking indirectly, but i doubt he'd think fast enough...

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#30 Suttree

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 09:57 PM

Great job up once again Luckers. You have done an excellent job capturing Mat in the write ups I have seen. This...

Mat barked a laugh. “Death is it, then? Blood and ashes, man, you don’t bother to walk small, do you.”


Was pretty awesome, even got "blood and ashes" right. :biggrin:

Edited by Suttree, 13 February 2012 - 09:59 PM.

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#31 Master Ablar

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 03:07 AM

RJ said that mat didnt die in rhuidean... so mats death in caemlyn was to "die and live again" as per the prophecy...

and for the medallion, if it doesnt block the TP, mat would go squish like at dumais wells... if it does, the time for moridin to think about attacking indirectly, would be plenty for mat to knife/ashendari him... still a toss up...

moridin might think of attacking indirectly, but i doubt he'd think fast enough...


Lightning, which is the discharge of electrons, is much like a stone being thrown. You can cause it to happen without touching where it strikes (at least you can if you can channel). This is how Rahvin kills Mat, and how Cyndane manages to hurt Alivia... the question is, would Moridin have the cleverness to figure out this weakness and exploit it.

His previous fights in the series say no, to me.


Lanfear was surpised when her weaves could not touch Alivia, but she was able to react to Alivia's counter attack. And Alivia is a channeller, and can therefore strike much faster than Mat could against Moridin. These terangreal don't seem to have been uncommon in the AoL, at least no Forsaken has been surpised by their existence, and considering their disbelief when they discover something that did not exist in the AoL, I imagine they would have shown some suprise. I doubt Moridin would be off balance for long. And once he knows that Mat can't be hit directly, he has plenty of options: blow up the ground, throw a boulder at him, etc... Any channeller with the barest amount of imagination can get around Mat's protection. And even if he can't come up with a solution right away, staying away from Mat isn't really all that difficult for a channeller. Moridin might already know about Mat's protection to begin with. He's been keeping track of Mat and Perrin afterall.

Ishamael's fights with Rand don't really tell us much about his fighting ability. He was constantly trying to convince Rand to join the Shadow. The first fight wasn't even a fight, just Rand suprising Ishamael by channelling at him. The second did not involve channelling, which has always been extremely odd on Ishamael's part. And in the third fights Rand had Callandor and was weaving purely by instince, which in his case probably means LTT. In any case Moridin seems to be far more collected, and calm than he was as Ishamael.

Of course, Mat could always win through some outrageous stroke of luck. He's already died once though. No reason he can't die again.

Great write up by the way.

Edited by Master Ablar, 14 February 2012 - 03:08 AM.

I think one of the reasons the Black Tower has become so popular in fandom isn't just that you get to dress in black and set fires with your mind, it's the sense of struggle the Asha'man have. To save the world, they have to embrace the part of themselves that's terrible and destructive. They risk madness to learn how to channel. It's a tremendous sacrifice they make.


#32 Luckers

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 04:39 AM

These terangreal don't seem to have been uncommon in the AoL, at least no Forsaken has been surpised by their existence, and considering their disbelief when they discover something that did not exist in the AoL, I imagine they would have shown some suprise.


Actually, these ter'angreal did not exist at all during the Age of Legends, they were created during the Breaking, and we see the Forsaken react to them in surprise--Aran'gar with Mat is one example, but the clearest is when Cyndane is fighting Alivia.

Just as it reached the woman, almost close enough to singe her garments, the web of Fire unraveled. The woman did not do anything; the net simply came apart! Cyndane had never heard of a ter'angreal that would break a web, but it must be that.


Of course she figures it out pretty fast, just as say, Setelle did, but the Forsaken don't know of these things. From there its a question of Moridin's reflexes, and skills at fighting, which to be frank have never come off in the best light.

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#33 Master Ablar

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 09:32 AM

These terangreal don't seem to have been uncommon in the AoL, at least no Forsaken has been surpised by their existence, and considering their disbelief when they discover something that did not exist in the AoL, I imagine they would have shown some suprise.


Actually, these ter'angreal did not exist at all during the Age of Legends, they were created during the Breaking, and we see the Forsaken react to them in surprise--Aran'gar with Mat is one example, but the clearest is when Cyndane is fighting Alivia.

Just as it reached the woman, almost close enough to singe her garments, the web of Fire unraveled. The woman did not do anything; the net simply came apart! Cyndane had never heard of a ter'angreal that would break a web, but it must be that.


Of course she figures it out pretty fast, just as say, Setelle did, but the Forsaken don't know of these things. From there its a question of Moridin's reflexes, and skills at fighting, which to be frank have never come off in the best light.


Ah, I guess I was mistaken about the terangreal. Although, Ishamael was free at certain points in time: the trolloc wars, the fall of Arthur Hawkwing's empire, the beginning of the breaking, and immediately preceding the books. So, there is a chance that he learned of these terangreal. Probably not a very big one, since they are rather rare, unless he was free long enough during the breaking to know of the creation of the terangreal. There's also the posibility that he's already learned that Mat has this protection.

As for Ishamael's fighting ability, I think it's hard to judge. Only his third fight with Rand is helpful in assesing his ability, and Rand had Callandor, which would have made it tough for anyone. Ishamael did take the fight into TAR I believe which was rather clever. Beyond that I think it's hard to say, but what I remember is that RJ said the top 6 Forsaken (Ishamael, Demandred, Lanfear, Sammael, Semirhage, Graendal), were all skilled at survival, both politically and physically, which at least implies that he was somewhat skilled in combat. And he's not unintelligent either, so coming up with a solution shouldn't be too dificult for him. Until he does he can always keep his distances.

Of course, this is assuming the medallion blocks the TP, which personally I think is unlikely, as I don't see how they could create a defense against something that they have no knowlede of. The AS can't study the TP, they don't have access to it.

Then again we don't know that AS made the medallion to begin with. For all we know it may have been one of the DO's own followers.

Edited by Master Ablar, 14 February 2012 - 09:34 AM.

I think one of the reasons the Black Tower has become so popular in fandom isn't just that you get to dress in black and set fires with your mind, it's the sense of struggle the Asha'man have. To save the world, they have to embrace the part of themselves that's terrible and destructive. They risk madness to learn how to channel. It's a tremendous sacrifice they make.


#34 mark

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 12:18 PM


These terangreal don't seem to have been uncommon in the AoL, at least no Forsaken has been surpised by their existence, and considering their disbelief when they discover something that did not exist in the AoL, I imagine they would have shown some suprise.


Actually, these ter'angreal did not exist at all during the Age of Legends, they were created during the Breaking, and we see the Forsaken react to them in surprise--Aran'gar with Mat is one example, but the clearest is when Cyndane is fighting Alivia.

Just as it reached the woman, almost close enough to singe her garments, the web of Fire unraveled. The woman did not do anything; the net simply came apart! Cyndane had never heard of a ter'angreal that would break a web, but it must be that.


Of course she figures it out pretty fast, just as say, Setelle did, but the Forsaken don't know of these things. From there its a question of Moridin's reflexes, and skills at fighting, which to be frank have never come off in the best light.


Ah, I guess I was mistaken about the terangreal. Although, Ishamael was free at certain points in time: the trolloc wars, the fall of Arthur Hawkwing's empire, the beginning of the breaking, and immediately preceding the books. So, there is a chance that he learned of these terangreal. Probably not a very big one, since they are rather rare, unless he was free long enough during the breaking to know of the creation of the terangreal. There's also the posibility that he's already learned that Mat has this protection.

As for Ishamael's fighting ability, I think it's hard to judge. Only his third fight with Rand is helpful in assesing his ability, and Rand had Callandor, which would have made it tough for anyone. Ishamael did take the fight into TAR I believe which was rather clever. Beyond that I think it's hard to say, but what I remember is that RJ said the top 6 Forsaken (Ishamael, Demandred, Lanfear, Sammael, Semirhage, Graendal), were all skilled at survival, both politically and physically, which at least implies that he was somewhat skilled in combat. And he's not unintelligent either, so coming up with a solution shouldn't be too dificult for him. Until he does he can always keep his distances.

Of course, this is assuming the medallion blocks the TP, which personally I think is unlikely, as I don't see how they could create a defense against something that they have no knowlede of. The AS can't study the TP, they don't have access to it.

Then again we don't know that AS made the medallion to begin with. For all we know it may have been one of the DO's own followers.


or made by the finn themselves... if the finn(snakes) have the ability to read the pattern and thereby give true answers, and the finn(foxes) have the ability to grant wishes, its possible that they can actually write straight into the pattern... to a limited extent of course... creating items of the power, without using the power... in which, the medallion could block the TP, but then we're back to the 50:50... darn mat's luck!

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#35 Bougher

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 02:12 PM

Good write up, but a bit short by your standards isn't it Luckers?

I totally agree with the solution to the medallion problem, we just don't know if it can stop the TP so a toss of a coin is the only fair way really, 50/50, nothing fairer than that.

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he tossed a coin ofcourse Matt won lol

Edited by Bougher, 14 February 2012 - 02:21 PM.

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#36 Bougher

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 02:28 PM


Lightning, which is the discharge of electrons, is much like a stone being thrown. You can cause it to happen without touching where it strikes (at least you can if you can channel). This is how Rahvin kills Mat, and how Cyndane manages to hurt Alivia... the question is, would Moridin have the cleverness to figure out this weakness and exploit it.

His previous fights in the series say no, to me.


If I remember correctly though, the last time we really saw him fight was as Ishmael. Moridin seems to be much more cool and calculating. He's spent the last how many books patiently playing everyone against each other instead of getting directly involved. I'd be willing the bet that and man who is playing both sides of the board is clever enough to attack Mat indirectly.

And another thought: what if they were to meet in the blight near Shayol Ghul, which seems more likely? We've seen that the Dark One's influence can reduce the effectiveness of weaves and changing the workings of the pattern. Who is to say that the foxhead or even Mat's luck would work the same in that situation?

yay matt is winning for now and realy the only reason rahvin killed matt was because matt needed to die for some unknow reason and rahvin was set for a powerfull balefire to the face


Not necessarily true. Mat's prophesied death may have been his hanging beneath the Tree of Life. Dying in Caemlyn could have just been dying in Caemlyn.



there was no saying that he acualy died though he just wasnt breathing not every time sombody stops breathing do they die
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#37 Master Ablar

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 02:43 PM



These terangreal don't seem to have been uncommon in the AoL, at least no Forsaken has been surpised by their existence, and considering their disbelief when they discover something that did not exist in the AoL, I imagine they would have shown some suprise.


Actually, these ter'angreal did not exist at all during the Age of Legends, they were created during the Breaking, and we see the Forsaken react to them in surprise--Aran'gar with Mat is one example, but the clearest is when Cyndane is fighting Alivia.

Just as it reached the woman, almost close enough to singe her garments, the web of Fire unraveled. The woman did not do anything; the net simply came apart! Cyndane had never heard of a ter'angreal that would break a web, but it must be that.


Of course she figures it out pretty fast, just as say, Setelle did, but the Forsaken don't know of these things. From there its a question of Moridin's reflexes, and skills at fighting, which to be frank have never come off in the best light.


Ah, I guess I was mistaken about the terangreal. Although, Ishamael was free at certain points in time: the trolloc wars, the fall of Arthur Hawkwing's empire, the beginning of the breaking, and immediately preceding the books. So, there is a chance that he learned of these terangreal. Probably not a very big one, since they are rather rare, unless he was free long enough during the breaking to know of the creation of the terangreal. There's also the posibility that he's already learned that Mat has this protection.

As for Ishamael's fighting ability, I think it's hard to judge. Only his third fight with Rand is helpful in assesing his ability, and Rand had Callandor, which would have made it tough for anyone. Ishamael did take the fight into TAR I believe which was rather clever. Beyond that I think it's hard to say, but what I remember is that RJ said the top 6 Forsaken (Ishamael, Demandred, Lanfear, Sammael, Semirhage, Graendal), were all skilled at survival, both politically and physically, which at least implies that he was somewhat skilled in combat. And he's not unintelligent either, so coming up with a solution shouldn't be too dificult for him. Until he does he can always keep his distances.

Of course, this is assuming the medallion blocks the TP, which personally I think is unlikely, as I don't see how they could create a defense against something that they have no knowlede of. The AS can't study the TP, they don't have access to it.

Then again we don't know that AS made the medallion to begin with. For all we know it may have been one of the DO's own followers.


or made by the finn themselves... if the finn(snakes) have the ability to read the pattern and thereby give true answers, and the finn(foxes) have the ability to grant wishes, its possible that they can actually write straight into the pattern... to a limited extent of course... creating items of the power, without using the power... in which, the medallion could block the TP, but then we're back to the 50:50... darn mat's luck!


It's possible, although Mat only asked to be free of Aes Sedai and they don't channel the TP. Ishamael was once Aes Sedai of course, but he isn't anymore. I don't think they would include the TP in the wish. They certainly have not given Mat anything else for free.

I've always wondered what would happen if you asked something impossible from the Elfinn. Or what would happen if you asked them to kill themselves. Can the Elfinn refuse to grant you your wishes?

I think one of the reasons the Black Tower has become so popular in fandom isn't just that you get to dress in black and set fires with your mind, it's the sense of struggle the Asha'man have. To save the world, they have to embrace the part of themselves that's terrible and destructive. They risk madness to learn how to channel. It's a tremendous sacrifice they make.


#38 Shaman

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 08:37 PM




These terangreal don't seem to have been uncommon in the AoL, at least no Forsaken has been surpised by their existence, and considering their disbelief when they discover something that did not exist in the AoL, I imagine they would have shown some suprise.


Actually, these ter'angreal did not exist at all during the Age of Legends, they were created during the Breaking, and we see the Forsaken react to them in surprise--Aran'gar with Mat is one example, but the clearest is when Cyndane is fighting Alivia.

Just as it reached the woman, almost close enough to singe her garments, the web of Fire unraveled. The woman did not do anything; the net simply came apart! Cyndane had never heard of a ter'angreal that would break a web, but it must be that.


Of course she figures it out pretty fast, just as say, Setelle did, but the Forsaken don't know of these things. From there its a question of Moridin's reflexes, and skills at fighting, which to be frank have never come off in the best light.


Ah, I guess I was mistaken about the terangreal. Although, Ishamael was free at certain points in time: the trolloc wars, the fall of Arthur Hawkwing's empire, the beginning of the breaking, and immediately preceding the books. So, there is a chance that he learned of these terangreal. Probably not a very big one, since they are rather rare, unless he was free long enough during the breaking to know of the creation of the terangreal. There's also the posibility that he's already learned that Mat has this protection.

As for Ishamael's fighting ability, I think it's hard to judge. Only his third fight with Rand is helpful in assesing his ability, and Rand had Callandor, which would have made it tough for anyone. Ishamael did take the fight into TAR I believe which was rather clever. Beyond that I think it's hard to say, but what I remember is that RJ said the top 6 Forsaken (Ishamael, Demandred, Lanfear, Sammael, Semirhage, Graendal), were all skilled at survival, both politically and physically, which at least implies that he was somewhat skilled in combat. And he's not unintelligent either, so coming up with a solution shouldn't be too dificult for him. Until he does he can always keep his distances.

Of course, this is assuming the medallion blocks the TP, which personally I think is unlikely, as I don't see how they could create a defense against something that they have no knowlede of. The AS can't study the TP, they don't have access to it.

Then again we don't know that AS made the medallion to begin with. For all we know it may have been one of the DO's own followers.


or made by the finn themselves... if the finn(snakes) have the ability to read the pattern and thereby give true answers, and the finn(foxes) have the ability to grant wishes, its possible that they can actually write straight into the pattern... to a limited extent of course... creating items of the power, without using the power... in which, the medallion could block the TP, but then we're back to the 50:50... darn mat's luck!


It's possible, although Mat only asked to be free of Aes Sedai and they don't channel the TP. Ishamael was once Aes Sedai of course, but he isn't anymore. I don't think they would include the TP in the wish. They certainly have not given Mat anything else for free.

I've always wondered what would happen if you asked something impossible from the Elfinn. Or what would happen if you asked them to kill themselves. Can the Elfinn refuse to grant you your wishes?

He actually said Aes Sedai and the 'Power.'It could mean either the One or True. But I'm pretty sure you're right and it's just the One. But you never know.

#39 mark

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 09:42 PM





These terangreal don't seem to have been uncommon in the AoL, at least no Forsaken has been surpised by their existence, and considering their disbelief when they discover something that did not exist in the AoL, I imagine they would have shown some suprise.


Actually, these ter'angreal did not exist at all during the Age of Legends, they were created during the Breaking, and we see the Forsaken react to them in surprise--Aran'gar with Mat is one example, but the clearest is when Cyndane is fighting Alivia.

Just as it reached the woman, almost close enough to singe her garments, the web of Fire unraveled. The woman did not do anything; the net simply came apart! Cyndane had never heard of a ter'angreal that would break a web, but it must be that.


Of course she figures it out pretty fast, just as say, Setelle did, but the Forsaken don't know of these things. From there its a question of Moridin's reflexes, and skills at fighting, which to be frank have never come off in the best light.


Ah, I guess I was mistaken about the terangreal. Although, Ishamael was free at certain points in time: the trolloc wars, the fall of Arthur Hawkwing's empire, the beginning of the breaking, and immediately preceding the books. So, there is a chance that he learned of these terangreal. Probably not a very big one, since they are rather rare, unless he was free long enough during the breaking to know of the creation of the terangreal. There's also the posibility that he's already learned that Mat has this protection.

As for Ishamael's fighting ability, I think it's hard to judge. Only his third fight with Rand is helpful in assesing his ability, and Rand had Callandor, which would have made it tough for anyone. Ishamael did take the fight into TAR I believe which was rather clever. Beyond that I think it's hard to say, but what I remember is that RJ said the top 6 Forsaken (Ishamael, Demandred, Lanfear, Sammael, Semirhage, Graendal), were all skilled at survival, both politically and physically, which at least implies that he was somewhat skilled in combat. And he's not unintelligent either, so coming up with a solution shouldn't be too dificult for him. Until he does he can always keep his distances.

Of course, this is assuming the medallion blocks the TP, which personally I think is unlikely, as I don't see how they could create a defense against something that they have no knowlede of. The AS can't study the TP, they don't have access to it.

Then again we don't know that AS made the medallion to begin with. For all we know it may have been one of the DO's own followers.


or made by the finn themselves... if the finn(snakes) have the ability to read the pattern and thereby give true answers, and the finn(foxes) have the ability to grant wishes, its possible that they can actually write straight into the pattern... to a limited extent of course... creating items of the power, without using the power... in which, the medallion could block the TP, but then we're back to the 50:50... darn mat's luck!


It's possible, although Mat only asked to be free of Aes Sedai and they don't channel the TP. Ishamael was once Aes Sedai of course, but he isn't anymore. I don't think they would include the TP in the wish. They certainly have not given Mat anything else for free.

I've always wondered what would happen if you asked something impossible from the Elfinn. Or what would happen if you asked them to kill themselves. Can the Elfinn refuse to grant you your wishes?

He actually said Aes Sedai and the 'Power.'It could mean either the One or True. But I'm pretty sure you're right and it's just the One. But you never know.


its ironicly ironic... as far as i can tell... the whole battle is a 50:50... and we all know who wins coin tosses...

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Brilliantly given the complex nickname of "Sam" by Aiel Heart


#40 Shaman

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 03:59 AM






These terangreal don't seem to have been uncommon in the AoL, at least no Forsaken has been surpised by their existence, and considering their disbelief when they discover something that did not exist in the AoL, I imagine they would have shown some suprise.


Actually, these ter'angreal did not exist at all during the Age of Legends, they were created during the Breaking, and we see the Forsaken react to them in surprise--Aran'gar with Mat is one example, but the clearest is when Cyndane is fighting Alivia.

Just as it reached the woman, almost close enough to singe her garments, the web of Fire unraveled. The woman did not do anything; the net simply came apart! Cyndane had never heard of a ter'angreal that would break a web, but it must be that.


Of course she figures it out pretty fast, just as say, Setelle did, but the Forsaken don't know of these things. From there its a question of Moridin's reflexes, and skills at fighting, which to be frank have never come off in the best light.


Ah, I guess I was mistaken about the terangreal. Although, Ishamael was free at certain points in time: the trolloc wars, the fall of Arthur Hawkwing's empire, the beginning of the breaking, and immediately preceding the books. So, there is a chance that he learned of these terangreal. Probably not a very big one, since they are rather rare, unless he was free long enough during the breaking to know of the creation of the terangreal. There's also the posibility that he's already learned that Mat has this protection.

As for Ishamael's fighting ability, I think it's hard to judge. Only his third fight with Rand is helpful in assesing his ability, and Rand had Callandor, which would have made it tough for anyone. Ishamael did take the fight into TAR I believe which was rather clever. Beyond that I think it's hard to say, but what I remember is that RJ said the top 6 Forsaken (Ishamael, Demandred, Lanfear, Sammael, Semirhage, Graendal), were all skilled at survival, both politically and physically, which at least implies that he was somewhat skilled in combat. And he's not unintelligent either, so coming up with a solution shouldn't be too dificult for him. Until he does he can always keep his distances.

Of course, this is assuming the medallion blocks the TP, which personally I think is unlikely, as I don't see how they could create a defense against something that they have no knowlede of. The AS can't study the TP, they don't have access to it.

Then again we don't know that AS made the medallion to begin with. For all we know it may have been one of the DO's own followers.


or made by the finn themselves... if the finn(snakes) have the ability to read the pattern and thereby give true answers, and the finn(foxes) have the ability to grant wishes, its possible that they can actually write straight into the pattern... to a limited extent of course... creating items of the power, without using the power... in which, the medallion could block the TP, but then we're back to the 50:50... darn mat's luck!


It's possible, although Mat only asked to be free of Aes Sedai and they don't channel the TP. Ishamael was once Aes Sedai of course, but he isn't anymore. I don't think they would include the TP in the wish. They certainly have not given Mat anything else for free.

I've always wondered what would happen if you asked something impossible from the Elfinn. Or what would happen if you asked them to kill themselves. Can the Elfinn refuse to grant you your wishes?

He actually said Aes Sedai and the 'Power.'It could mean either the One or True. But I'm pretty sure you're right and it's just the One. But you never know.


its ironicly ironic... as far as i can tell... the whole battle is a 50:50... and we all know who wins coin tosses...

What we have to do is throw three coins into the air, Mat is heads, Mordin is tails, and see which has the majority.