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Week 4: Mat vs. Lan


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Poll: Week 4: Mat vs. Lan (187 member(s) have cast votes)

Who will win?

  1. Voted Mat (146 votes [78.07%])

    Percentage of vote: 78.07%

  2. Lan (41 votes [21.93%])

    Percentage of vote: 21.93%

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#61 mark

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 05:21 PM


Getting back to Galad, Gawyn vs. Mat. While very impressive, at that time, certainly Gawyn was not a blademaster, Galad was probably at a blademaster level. Keep in mind that Rand also dispatched that Seanchan blademaster with hardly any training.



And Rand does so how again exactly? Nothing to do with Lews Therin being a blademaster and some of that seeping in?
It's about 99% assured that Mat is Aemon reborn soooo....


or that rand and ishamael took the tame game of "swords" and turned it deadly... they wernt only blademasters, they were the first blademasters...

and yea, id say mat is probably aemon reborn(if not, one of his generals), and many other great generals and warriors through history... mat clearly has accessible sporadic memories from warriors and generals past, but, with his chat with brigetta, he would switch languages and dialects fluently and seamlessly, this tells me there are ALOT of memories... alot more then he's given credit for...

this fight is of no contest in my mind... lan wouldnt stand a chance... even without mats luck...

and @Entreri, lan is not the best blademaster in WoT... jerome was... he was only beaten once, by a farmer with a staff(who i believe, is mat)...

lan's the best living blademaster, but mat is a different realm of skill...

Edited by mark, 08 February 2012 - 05:51 PM.

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#62 Finnssss

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 07:12 PM



Getting back to Galad, Gawyn vs. Mat. While very impressive, at that time, certainly Gawyn was not a blademaster, Galad was probably at a blademaster level. Keep in mind that Rand also dispatched that Seanchan blademaster with hardly any training.



And Rand does so how again exactly? Nothing to do with Lews Therin being a blademaster and some of that seeping in?
It's about 99% assured that Mat is Aemon reborn soooo....



or that rand and ishamael took the tame game of "swords" and turned it deadly... they wernt only blademasters, they were the first blademasters...


Not Ishy, Sammy and Be'lal actually.

and yea, id say mat is probably aemon reborn(if not, one of his generals)


It's Aemon, there is no other explanation and before anyone gets back on the "but Hawkwing didn't recognize him" thing, there is no proof that Aemon was/is a Hero of the Horn in the first place.
"Also, you can all go rot in a flaming pit of fire and ashes, you unwashed lumps on a pig's backside. Have a grand bloody day."
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#63 mark

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 07:54 PM

It's Aemon, there is no other explanation and before anyone gets back on the "but Hawkwing didn't recognize him" thing, there is no proof that Aemon was/is a Hero of the Horn in the first place.


or that people always look alike every rebirth... rand/lews doesnt... only thing similar, is their height...

Edited by mark, 08 February 2012 - 07:54 PM.

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#64 Duskfire

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 02:13 AM

It's Aemon, there is no other explanation and before anyone gets back on the "but Hawkwing didn't recognize him" thing, there is no proof that Aemon was/is a Hero of the Horn in the first place.


Er what do you mean? why does there need to be an explanation for anything? Does Mat need to have been anyone in his previous life? Why Aemon?

#65 Finnssss

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 04:39 AM

It's Aemon, there is no other explanation and before anyone gets back on the "but Hawkwing didn't recognize him" thing, there is no proof that Aemon was/is a Hero of the Horn in the first place.


Er what do you mean? why does there need to be an explanation for anything? Does Mat need to have been anyone in his previous life? Why Aemon?



tDR chapter 19 "Awakening"


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Lee Davis
The speaking the Old Tongue is from his bloodline though, not his memories in that case, isn't it?
Brandon
Yes, but it's still foreshadowing. He's the one who does it, not the others.
sleepinghour
In TEotW, is Mat remembering the Old Tongue from his own past life or from his ancestors?
Terez
Good question. He seems to have confirmed Old Blood for the Old Tongue, but the Aemon memory?
Felix
That's what my belief is, Aemon. Mat Cauthon is the reborn soul of Aemon. Aemon's Old Tongue.
Brandon
It isn't made clear. It could be either. The implication is his bloodline.
Brandon
The Aemon connection is certainly implied strongly.
sleepinghour
Without revealing names, did RJ's notes say whether any character besides Rand is the reincarnation of someone important?
Brandon
This is a difficult one to answer, as I think even an answer might give some people too much of a clue. I'll consider.


Edited by Finnssss, 09 February 2012 - 04:48 AM.

"Also, you can all go rot in a flaming pit of fire and ashes, you unwashed lumps on a pig's backside. Have a grand bloody day."
-First Prince of the Ravens


"I know too much now, but too little then. You could say I was hanged for knowledge."
- Mat "I am no bloody Lord" Cauthon

#66 Edgetho

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 08:29 AM

All this talk as to whether Mat (or Perrin, for that matter) are anybody reborn has put me to thinking. Rand is Lews Therin, obviously, but when LTT fights Tarmon Gai'don, I don't recall any mention of lieutenants on the level of the importance that Mat and Perrin enjoy. There are the Companions, but I don't think any of them are named. In fact, I think LTT and Artur Hawkwing might be the only two Ta'veren to be mentioned besides Rand, Mat, and Perrin. Nope, just looked it up, there's also Mabriam en Shareed, who I guess was a queen who pulled what was left of the world together to fight the Trolloc Wars. Well, I doubt either Mat or Perrin is her, and they can't be Hawkwing, since he's still kicking around to answer the Horn of Valere.

We've seen time and time again that RJ linked the three Ta'veren to mythical gods, Mat to Odin, Perin to Perun, and Rand probably to Tyr. That didn't stop him from mixing in plenty of other elements, though, and tripartite gods have quite a precedent in global religion, from Christianity to parts of Hinduism and plenty of other places. The soul of Lews Therin took quite a beating at the end of the Age of Legends, could it have fractured or something? I mean, yes, Rand is obviously Lews Therin, but Lews Therin was also a brilliant general in the war against the shadow and Rand tends to leave the commanding up to his generals.

What I'm getting at is maybe Mat and Perrin are both lesser aspects of the soul of the Dragon. Rand gets the lion's share, Lews Therin the Dragon, the champion of the Light, Mat is Lews Therin the General, commander of the Armies of the Light, and Perrin is Lews Therin the Dreamer, master of Tel'aran'rhiod. It would explain why this Tarmon Gai'don has three Ta'veren instead of the usual one, at least. And didn't Moiraine take all three out of the Two Rivers because they all met her criteria to be possible candidates for the Dragon? Now that I read it all over again, I'm not sure if it makes much sense. Can't stop thinking about it, though.

#67 Master Ablar

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 08:55 AM

All this talk as to whether Mat (or Perrin, for that matter) are anybody reborn has put me to thinking. Rand is Lews Therin, obviously, but when LTT fights Tarmon Gai'don, I don't recall any mention of lieutenants on the level of the importance that Mat and Perrin enjoy. There are the Companions, but I don't think any of them are named. In fact, I think LTT and Artur Hawkwing might be the only two Ta'veren to be mentioned besides Rand, Mat, and Perrin. Nope, just looked it up, there's also Mabriam en Shareed, who I guess was a queen who pulled what was left of the world together to fight the Trolloc Wars. Well, I doubt either Mat or Perrin is her, and they can't be Hawkwing, since he's still kicking around to answer the Horn of Valere.

We've seen time and time again that RJ linked the three Ta'veren to mythical gods, Mat to Odin, Perin to Perun, and Rand probably to Tyr. That didn't stop him from mixing in plenty of other elements, though, and tripartite gods have quite a precedent in global religion, from Christianity to parts of Hinduism and plenty of other places. The soul of Lews Therin took quite a beating at the end of the Age of Legends, could it have fractured or something? I mean, yes, Rand is obviously Lews Therin, but Lews Therin was also a brilliant general in the war against the shadow and Rand tends to leave the commanding up to his generals.

What I'm getting at is maybe Mat and Perrin are both lesser aspects of the soul of the Dragon. Rand gets the lion's share, Lews Therin the Dragon, the champion of the Light, Mat is Lews Therin the General, commander of the Armies of the Light, and Perrin is Lews Therin the Dreamer, master of Tel'aran'rhiod. It would explain why this Tarmon Gai'don has three Ta'veren instead of the usual one, at least. And didn't Moiraine take all three out of the Two Rivers because they all met her criteria to be possible candidates for the Dragon? Now that I read it all over again, I'm not sure if it makes much sense. Can't stop thinking about it, though.


It's a nice theory but unfortunately I believe RJ said that souls cannot be split.

I think one of the reasons the Black Tower has become so popular in fandom isn't just that you get to dress in black and set fires with your mind, it's the sense of struggle the Asha'man have. To save the world, they have to embrace the part of themselves that's terrible and destructive. They risk madness to learn how to channel. It's a tremendous sacrifice they make.


#68 mark

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 09:35 AM

All this talk as to whether Mat (or Perrin, for that matter) are anybody reborn has put me to thinking. Rand is Lews Therin, obviously, but when LTT fights Tarmon Gai'don, I don't recall any mention of lieutenants on the level of the importance that Mat and Perrin enjoy. There are the Companions, but I don't think any of them are named. In fact, I think LTT and Artur Hawkwing might be the only two Ta'veren to be mentioned besides Rand, Mat, and Perrin. Nope, just looked it up, there's also Mabriam en Shareed, who I guess was a queen who pulled what was left of the world together to fight the Trolloc Wars. Well, I doubt either Mat or Perrin is her, and they can't be Hawkwing, since he's still kicking around to answer the Horn of Valere.

We've seen time and time again that RJ linked the three Ta'veren to mythical gods, Mat to Odin, Perin to Perun, and Rand probably to Tyr. That didn't stop him from mixing in plenty of other elements, though, and tripartite gods have quite a precedent in global religion, from Christianity to parts of Hinduism and plenty of other places. The soul of Lews Therin took quite a beating at the end of the Age of Legends, could it have fractured or something? I mean, yes, Rand is obviously Lews Therin, but Lews Therin was also a brilliant general in the war against the shadow and Rand tends to leave the commanding up to his generals.

What I'm getting at is maybe Mat and Perrin are both lesser aspects of the soul of the Dragon. Rand gets the lion's share, Lews Therin the Dragon, the champion of the Light, Mat is Lews Therin the General, commander of the Armies of the Light, and Perrin is Lews Therin the Dreamer, master of Tel'aran'rhiod. It would explain why this Tarmon Gai'don has three Ta'veren instead of the usual one, at least. And didn't Moiraine take all three out of the Two Rivers because they all met her criteria to be possible candidates for the Dragon? Now that I read it all over again, I'm not sure if it makes much sense. Can't stop thinking about it, though.


rj said souls cannot be split, and, youre assuming that all three are needed by the wheel for every sealing...

also, it wouldnt explain why rand has the whole of lews in his head, and mat/perrin have none...

hero's are often remembered, sidekicks rarely are...

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#69 Edgetho

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 11:30 AM

Ah, well. Would have been nice. In the Words of Thomas Henry Huxley, "The great tragedy of Science: the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact." I will console myself by imagining Mat's face if someone were to refer to him as "Rand's sidekick".

#70 mark

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 12:00 PM

Ah, well. Would have been nice. In the Words of Thomas Henry Huxley, "The great tragedy of Science: the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact." I will console myself by imagining Mat's face if someone were to refer to him as "Rand's sidekick".


sidekicks are important... theyre just not remembered nearly as long ;-)

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#71 Kael Pyralis

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 07:18 AM

I don't know... if Lan is as good as we're supposed to believe, I'm not sure any amount of luck on the other person's side can do much to him. Like Lan would have already planned for every possible small chance of anything happening, as if he reads the pattern (like an atium misting, or a jedi). Sounds unreasonable, but he's just that good right?

Every memory he searched that contained a fight with a blademaster seemed to end abruptly, and not in his favor.


Hilarious.
"A man who who tended to milking and being the occasional blacksmith is suddenly killing men who have been fighting since they were young in a warrior society.
But oh my God, a young Aes Sedai decided to share her advice with an older one in regards to her warder. Stop the presses." - Elan Tedronai

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#72 Bougher

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 08:58 PM

[/quote]
to my mind, the three boys, are the three pinnacles of the three realms of combat... rand the best channeler, mat the best warrior, perrin the best TAR controller(or soon to be... he didnt kill slayer, but he did beat him)... having the three in this contest is quite unbalanced...
[/quote]


what are you talking about controller?
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#73 Bougher

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 09:02 PM



Well it doesnt say that anywhere exactly, but Mat was fast enough to keep up with the Gholam, which was said to make a Fade look slow, which are in turn described as being quite swift. To me Lan is stronger, but Mat is faster and with longer reach. Mat is also extremely good defensively; in the chapter where the six aiel fought him he knew he couldnt defeat them, so he just blocked their attacks and knocked their hands and defended himself. How many other people could survive against six aiel at once? Essentially, Lan could not get close enough in a one on one to be able to deal any major damage.

When did Mat fight six Aiel? You might be thinking of the men who attacked him in KoD, but a) those weren't Aiel, and b) Thom, Tuon, and Selucia helped. Lan also took out six men on his own in NS where he wasn't nearly as good as he is now.



Lan wins. I can't believe anyone would think that Mat would win against Lan. Lan has spent years fighting in the blight, is a trained warrior and had a sword put in his hands at birth.

Matt spent his young years stealing pies.


yes he spent his youth steeling pies
but he spent many lives fighting were as lan only has one
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#74 Torn Shadow

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 09:08 PM

I don't know... if Lan is as good as we're supposed to believe, I'm not sure any amount of luck on the other person's side can do much to him. Like Lan would have already planned for every possible small chance of anything happening, as if he reads the pattern (like an atium misting, or a jedi). Sounds unreasonable, but he's just that good right?

Every memory he searched that contained a fight with a blademaster seemed to end abruptly, and not in his favor.


Hilarious.


Really? So Lan has prepared for the bird happening to die right overhead and smack him in the head when it falls, or the meteor that kills him moments before he can deliver a fatal blow? One cannot fight luck, it is far too strong and far too evil.

Edited by Torn Shadow, 10 February 2012 - 09:09 PM.


#75 Bougher

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 09:10 PM


best swordfighter, yes, lan... best warrior tho, i highly doubt... lan's skills all come from his training in this life... whereas mat's skills come from this life, and the collective skills from the past 1000ish years(or more)...

and lets not forget... most people in the books do not know about mats memories... rand and tuon are the only two i can think of...

lans skill with his sword << mats skill with his ashenderai

lans just more likely to want to attack... mat's more of a defensive character... protecting others...


Lan's sword skills > Mat's with his ashandarei.

And Lan is the best fighter in WoT.


Elite combat is muscle memory. Mat does not have all the memories of every single person, he has fragments of their memories. A human brain would fry under that kind of load.

Ashandarei is a specialized weapon, it is very unlikely that more than a handful of people in Mat's memory wielded such a weapon, if any. One person may be good, poor etc with said weapon...
So all that memory may not help him much and actually hamper his fighting depending on the how they clash.

Lan was a blademaster when he became a teenager, according to RJ.

The Foxs/Snakes describe him as a "general", "fool", "gambler", never as a warrior or fighter. Mat's is indeed the greatest general ever.



Getting back to Galad, Gawyn vs. Mat. While very impressive, at that time, certainly Gawyn was not a blademaster, Galad was probably at a blademaster level. Keep in mind that Rand also dispatched that Seanchan blademaster with hardly any training.



thats not true he got some decent wounds and part of the reason he one is because he soudenly got a lot better when asumed the void in the middel of the fight
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#76 Bougher

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 09:22 PM

All this talk as to whether Mat (or Perrin, for that matter) are anybody reborn has put me to thinking. Rand is Lews Therin, obviously, but when LTT fights Tarmon Gai'don, I don't recall any mention of lieutenants on the level of the importance that Mat and Perrin enjoy. There are the Companions, but I don't think any of them are named. In fact, I think LTT and Artur Hawkwing might be the only two Ta'veren to be mentioned besides Rand, Mat, and Perrin. Nope, just looked it up, there's also Mabriam en Shareed, who I guess was a queen who pulled what was left of the world together to fight the Trolloc Wars. Well, I doubt either Mat or Perrin is her, and they can't be Hawkwing, since he's still kicking around to answer the Horn of Valere.

We've seen time and time again that RJ linked the three Ta'veren to mythical gods, Mat to Odin, Perin to Perun, and Rand probably to Tyr. That didn't stop him from mixing in plenty of other elements, though, and tripartite gods have quite a precedent in global religion, from Christianity to parts of Hinduism and plenty of other places. The soul of Lews Therin took quite a beating at the end of the Age of Legends, could it have fractured or something? I mean, yes, Rand is obviously Lews Therin, but Lews Therin was also a brilliant general in the war against the shadow and Rand tends to leave the commanding up to his generals.

What I'm getting at is maybe Mat and Perrin are both lesser aspects of the soul of the Dragon. Rand gets the lion's share, Lews Therin the Dragon, the champion of the Light, Mat is Lews Therin the General, commander of the Armies of the Light, and Perrin is Lews Therin the Dreamer, master of Tel'aran'rhiod. It would explain why this Tarmon Gai'don has three Ta'veren instead of the usual one, at least. And didn't Moiraine take all three out of the Two Rivers because they all met her criteria to be possible candidates for the Dragon? Now that I read it all over again, I'm not sure if it makes much sense. Can't stop thinking about it, though.


but also Lews faild rember and fain or what ever the schallors name was that he was talking to had metaned that the boir had to be resealed agian but not in this age although that is the most likly but also i belive the part about who the one who pulls the sword out of the stone will follow after him i belive that will be logaen will be the one to finsh resealing the dark one and that yes rand is lews reborn so there for hes not going to make the same mistake in the sealing and if he said that he was raised better this time wich i cant help but thinck involes the presences of his friends in his life
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#77 Entreri

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 12:56 PM

"Really? So Lan has prepared for the bird happening to die right overhead and smack him in the head when it falls, or the meteor that kills him moments before he can deliver a fatal blow? One cannot fight luck, it is far too strong and far too evil"

Yes, NOBODY can EVER anticipate for LUCK. It is random.

If Mat's luck plays a pretty significant part in the battle, Lan is toast.


If Mat's luck is FULL BLOWN, he could beat both Lan AND Jearom in UNISON. Lan and Jearom will probably stab each other to death by "accident".


"thats not true he got some decent wounds and part of the reason he one is because he soudenly got a lot better when asumed the void in the middel of the fight "

Rand sustained one minor cut against the High Lord. He may have been training for at most a couple of months with the sword, if that. Child prodigy right there, a natural blademaster.

LTT was likely the leader that invented blademastering in AoL, Be'lal and Sammael playing a small part.



If Rand, all limbs vs. Mat, Rand would win. The far greater ta'avern will cancel out the much lesser.

#78 Dwynwen

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 09:01 PM

The voting is over, and the winner is...

Mat!
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