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#21 Tamyrlin1

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 09:25 AM

Space (3)
Time (1) (often called the 'fourth dimension)
Electromagnetic (2, pos and neg)
Colour (3, red/blue/green) (note: these aren't really colours, the just act in a similar way: combine all three and you get neutral, just as you get white light by combining red, blue, and green light, as in your monitor.)
Weak nuclear (2)


this is interesting, i've often wondered how they came up with the number of dimensions being 11. By this logic though, shouldnt gravity and the strong nuclear force have a dimension as well? also spin should get something too. that could give you, in as logical an order as i can come up with...
1,2,3 - L,W,H
4 - time
5 - gravity
6 - spin
7 - EM
8 - colour
9 - weak
10 - strong
11 - (true source???) I cant come up with another property or force to use here, but really, the number of dimensions necessary is a minor detail imo.

The reason i would dismiss the idea of using EM as 2 dimensions is because i see positive and negative charge as the same dimension but on a different side of the axis, so to speak. Just like you can have a -x and -y in Cartesian coords without increasing the number of dimensions to 4.

Color is a strange property to me, it has 3 different possible states, but how does each state manifest in our world? it doesnt interact appreciably beyond the atomic level, indeed, barely beyond the nucleus. And, unlike EM, the positive and negative axes would be much harder to define. I could see giving color 3 dimensions, because each color charge also has it's own anti-charge. If spin is eliminated and color is instead split into 3, then the 11 dimensions reappear. I wish i knew more about QCD, that's where all the interesting stuff happens.

In other news, i read that the LHC's "discovery" about neutrinos traveling faster than light might be due to a loose wire connection...anyone else find that rather depressing? I was hoping it would spark a revelation in our understanding of physics, but it doesnt appear that way anymore.

#22 FarShainMael

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 02:40 AM

That was the first time I had seen an attempt to actually identify the extra dimensions, and like you, I'm not entirely happy with it. Perhaps the author of the article was throwing it out there to encourage thought!

I agree that strong nuclear should have a dimension, and I wondered if that was why they'd assigned 2 dims to 'weak' nuclear - perhaps 'weak' was a typo. Also, if gravity is associated with spacetime curvature, that's curving into another dimension.

Spin is angular momentum (multiples and sub-multiples of h), so I don't think it would fit in here. But I'm happy with EM as a single dimension. Or electrostatics at least, as I'm not sure if magnetic charges (monopoles!) have been found yet. So I'd put

6 - electrostatic
7 - electromagnetic

Now for dimension eleven.. When people first started thinking about extra dimensions, two blokes called Kaluza and Klein found that if they rewrote Einstein's and Maxwell's equations with an extra dimension for mass, they had something that seemed to unify EM and gravity. Unfortuantely they were not quite right, but it gave people ideas. At one point there were thought to be 26 dimensions :blink:, then they got it down to 10, then they decided there need to be one more, which seemed to be needed for branes.

Must leave it at that point, gotta hit the shops! will talk about colour later.

Edited by FarShainMael, 27 February 2012 - 02:41 AM.

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#23 Tamyrlin1

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 08:33 AM

http://www.varchive.org/ce/cosmos.htm

Here's a neat little theory about gravity actually being caused by electromagnetism and not some completely different force. I've considered this possibility before, but never actually taken the time to go through the math and such. The reason i find it plausible is that both forces have almost exactly the same formula, a constant, multiplied by...
A) the two masses
or,
B) the two charges
both divided by the square of the distance between them. I found a few holes in his paper, but for the most part it seemed pretty legitimate, the holes most likely arising because the paper was written in 1946.

Spin is angular momentum (multiples and sub-multiples of h), so I don't think it would fit in here. But I'm happy with EM as a single dimension. Or electrostatics at least, as I'm not sure if magnetic charges (monopoles!) have been found yet. So I'd put


This is something i've had a problem believing for a while. When i was first taught about spin, i was told that it actually had nothing to do with physical rotation. And yet, later in my QM course, we used an angular momentum theory applied to spin to derive something else. So, if spin isnt rotation, how come it's treated as rotation? that's a question i should have asked my professor, yet neglected to for whatever reason...Also, magnetic monopoles were supposedly found in 2009, although wikipedia disputes this fact. Here's an article on the discovery.

#24 FarShainMael

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 08:43 AM

Ah yes, colour charge..

You've no doubt heard of quarks, the components of which atomic particles such as protons and neutrons (baryons) are made, and possibly of leptons, which comprise electrons and neutrinos (whether faster than light or not :wink: ).

Now here's an interesting thing. There are 6 quarks, and each baryon is made up of three of these. The quarks have six 'flavours': up, down, strange, charm, top, bottom. (or possibly those last two are called 'truth' and 'beauty'.) They also have three 'colours' according to QCD: red, blue, green.

Back to our eleven dimensions...

Time is one of those dimensions.

I wonder if the three 'colours' are linked with the three 'normal' spatial dimensions, and correspond to wave components along those three dimensions that interfere with each other (as we discussed earlier) to make a particle in 3D space.

I wonder if the six 'flavours' correspond to six of the other dimensions.

I wonder if the eleventh dimension is the 'colour' of the leptons.

Oh, I love a really daft theory.. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Oh dear, the LHC. I really can't believe it was just a faulty fibre-optic cable. Surely that would have been one of the FIRST things they checked, it's fundamental to the timing!!

You must have heard the joke..

The barman says: Sorry, we don't serve leptons here.

A neutrino walks into a bar.




I'll catch up with your other post later!

Edited by FarShainMael, 27 February 2012 - 08:47 AM.

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#25 Tamyrlin1

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 02:16 PM

I wonder if the six 'flavours' correspond to six of the other dimensions.


I've always considered the flavours as just different types of particles, similar to how there are supposedly 3 mass "levels" of all particles. The standard model of particle physics is fascinating in so many ways. All the symmetry that exists in nature makes the idea of a perfectly symmetrical model very appealing. This model is centered on the fact that mass is a completely independent property. And this then goes back to the Higgs Boson, which i don't think will be found. And overall, it comes back to the idea of the aether and energy being what gives rise to mass, not the Higgs. If particles are actually made out of the aether, then the discussion were having now is just talking about the differences between apples and oranges. Anything that is made of mass, hadrons and leptons, would fall into this category.

I do like the idea of colour representing the 3 spatial dimensions, that's certainly sparked my imagination. The interference patterns from such a system could definitely result in the observation/formation of a 3D nucleus.

The force carriers are another issue. They're classified to an extent as particles, and this inherently carries some form of incongruity. These "particles" were introduced only to explain the transmission of the forces observed in nature. They are the product of an attempt to balance energy in the equations of nuclear reactions. Photons are the prime example here. They propagate at the speed of light, carrying energy with them. I'm not sure if the propagation speeds of the other bosons have been determined, and if not, that might be the next best thing to figure out. If they behave at all like the speed of light (that is, constant independent of the observer), it could be a sign that all bosons exist in the same dimension. If they dont, say one propagates instantaneously to all observers, then that might suggest they inhabit a different dimension. Instantaneous propagation could be a factor in producing the effect of quantum entanglement.

The 11-dimensions are certainly a nice way to describe everything, as explained in This Video. String theory is an incredibly elegant way to provide the math for such a system. I like string theory, in that it helps get away from the focus on mass. I can only barely grasp the implications and ideas of string theory, but i know enough to understand that it could very well be the answer. I think that trying to classify different things that we can evaluate in our world as being part of the 11 dimensions is overstepping our bounds a little bit. It's suggested that these dimensions are curled up to small for us to detect, but i see it as the opposite. The other dimensions are too LARGE for us to detect, they encompass everything. The small dimensions we cant see are the 1st and 2nd, they are infinitesimally small, (think dx in calculus) but with an infinite amount of them, a 3D world comes into being. The idea is the same for the higher dimensions. with an infinite amount of 3D worlds strung end to end (The Block Universe), a 4D world can exist.

I feel like i rambled a little bit there, but hopefully it's not too bad. :happy:

#26 FarShainMael

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 03:17 AM

Ramble on, no problem! You never know where you may end up!

Catch-up time......

Gravity and electromagnetism (or electrostatic charge):

Thanks for the link. It's a pity, I think, that Velikovsky has come in for so much ridicule.

Gravity and electrostatic force certainly do both obey the inverse square law. Unfortunately we haven't yet found a negative gravitational charge, though I believe some cosmological theories do imply such a thing because of the cosmological constant:

http://www.jpoffline.com/mywork.php

Electromagnetic force is slightly different from electrostatic force. A current in a wire produces a magnetic field in the region round the wire:

http://en.wikipedia....ectric_currents

Here, a force exists between two such wires. If the currecnt is travelling in the same direction in each, the force is attractive; if in opposite directions, the force is repulsive. It also varies with distance only, rather than with the square of distance.

Spin and angular momentum:

Spin of elementary particles certainly has the 'dimensions' of angular momentum. Here the word 'dimensions' refer to how the spin can be 'built up' from the fundamental quantites of mass, length, time, electric charge, and temperature:

http://en.wikipedia....sional_analysis

For example:
a square shape has dimensions length * length,

or L^2

Energy (from E=mc^2) has dimensions mass * velocity * velocity. but since velocity has dimensions length / time, energy has dimensions mass * length * length / time * time.

or ML^2/T^2

Angular momentum is the mass of a particle rotating (orbiting!) a point (under gravity, or just a piece of string) multiplied by its velocity and by its distance from that point (ie the length of the string: mass * (length/time) * length

or ML^2/T

Planck's constant h has the same dimensions - energy * time:

(ML^2/T^2) * T, or ML^2/T

After that, though, it gets complicated..

http://en.wikipedia....antum_mechanics

Noted the link about magnetic monopoles, thanks.

Re string theory: yes, fascinating, isn't it!

Force carriers.. I've seen these represented as 'balls' being tossed form one particle to another for repulsive forces, and boomerangs for attractive forces.. This has not helped me to take them seriously :rolleyes:

Instantaneous propagation is THE problem of entanglement, isn't it! We can't really avoid the notion of this taking place outside our normal spacetime.

That's an interesting thought about other dimensions being expanded rather than compactified (horrible word!) I'm thinking 'Planck length' and 'brane space'* now..

*not to be confused with Transcubiciatic 3-brane space :blink:

LOVED the Block Universe!!
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#27 Tamyrlin1

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 12:36 PM

Thanks for that explanation on spin, it's about what i remember from my QM course. I still think there's something missing in our theory of spin, but I cant figure out what it could be.

It would be nice to be able to combine gravity and electrostatics so easily. And thank you for the correction in my usage of EM, there's definitely a difference in the two. In order for the combined theory to work, all the planets would need to be charged the same way, and the sun would have had to be charged oppositely. But this doesn't seem to make much sense to me, since everything condensed from the same "cloud" of matter, so therefore everything should have approximately the same charge. If there was a significant chance that this theory was in any way right i feel like we'd have seen more support of it by now, so it's probably safe to say that gravity and electric charge are separate.

Oh, where to go now. I feel like we've covered a good amount of QM. That's a pretty good lead-in to the Quantum Brain. Consciousness is probably a good place to start, even though it's pretty hard to talk about without moving away from science and physics. If we regard the idea of a soul as preposterous, the problem is relatively easy to solve. In that case consciousness simply arises from the evolution of a complex enough brain that, once all the other basic functions of life are taken care of, there is enough left over to allow "thought" to pop into existence. It is the idea that the Human Connectome is what makes us who we are. So, removing this simple solution, could the soul be what drives consciousness? If we ignore the WoT threads of the pattern idea of the soul for now, how could it be explained by modern science/physics, if at all?

#28 FarShainMael

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 04:03 AM

First, may I return to that 'Block universe' concept briefly.

I was having a look at that 'block time' link you supplied, and I'm in full agreement with the concept. In fact, I suggested something very like it a few times on the fora, when people raised the quesion of the Wheel being both infinite and having a Creator.

From my post #33 on this thread:

the Wheel and the Pattern it generates, all of space-time, is a product of RJ's Creator. The Creator made time, and therefore must exist outside time. Think of him as a computer programmer running a simulation. From his point of view, he put the whole program in at once, but the people in the simulation don't know that. From their PoV, it's always been there and always will be there.


I developed this a bit in my post 52 here:

About the 'moment of creation': I further propose that the Creator's timescale is not the same as that of His creation. Think of Him as a super-programmer. He builds a computer and runs His Wheel-program on it. To the entities inside the program (Rand et al) the Wheel has been turning forever; to the Creator, He set it running mid-UltraFriday afternoon, His time, after a cup of super-coffee..



Kestrel has also commented on this concept, in his post #20 here.

Now.. the soul.

I've come across this idea of conscious 'emerging' from the operation of a sufficently complex brain. In fact I'm currently reading a book called 'A beginner's guide to reality' whose author states early on that he favours the notion of emergent phenomena. He illustrates his reason by invitng you to pick up a book from the table using only your mind, and asks if you're having trouble. This is a neat debating-trick, but it doesn't really prove his point. It might be that the mind is only strong enough to move elementary particles, and in the brain this produces thought because of the way the brain is structured - but no such structure exists in the considerably less complex volume of 'War and Peace' decorating your coffee table. Or it might be that it's not a question of physical strength at all, but an influence on something far more subtle, such as randomness, with the soul imposing its influence at a sub-Planck length level. The question is far from settled.

And we're back to the quantum brain again..

But first, let's clarify some terms, and say exactly what we mean when we talk about 'soul', 'spirit','mind', and 'brain'

'Brain' is probably easiest: it's a lump of organic tissue situated in our heads, receiving sensory inputs from eyes, ears, etc, and sending signals via nerves and hormones (through the pituitary) to the body to get things done. Thought takes place here, whether soul-based or emergent.

Er, no, not quite..

There is some evidence that a certain amount of information processing goes on elsewhere in the body. For example, there is some evidence that the retina pre-processes some visual data before sending it to the brain:

http://en.wikipedia....patial_encoding

Then there's the heart, which is not a simple muscle. The cells which comprise it are quite different from the usual cells in voluntary and involuntary muscles. They are part muscle cell, part nerve cell, and are connected up in structures which govern the heartbeat and may approach the complexity of the brain..

http://en.wikipedia..../Cardiac_muscle

So it may not be just our brains that we think with, but other parts as well (the hair on our chests.. :biggrin: (well, not mine :wink: ))

Next, the mind, as distinct from the soul.. The mind does things. We perceive things such as objects and colours, we do things such as stand and sleep, we think things such as following a story such as WoT or doing mental arithmetic, we feel things such as love or hate, we remember things.. and so on. The mind is our workshop.

Then there's the spirit / soul. (Some schools of thought consider these different.) The Christian catechism specifies a soul as an immortal spirit with understanding and free will, and is the essence of our humanity. Let us consult Wikipedia once more for a summary of ideas of soul:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul

I see the soul as interacting with the body through the medium of the mind. To discuss mind without soul, I think we're firmly in the region of emergent systems.
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#29 Tamyrlin1

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 05:02 PM

The way you described that is basically how i see it as well. The DO and the creator are the same type of being, both existing outside of the pattern. One theory I've considered is that the DO is imprisoned in the 2nd dimension, and is therefore incapable of interacting with the 3rd dimension, except at SG where there used to be a hole into the 2nd dimension. The fourth and fifth dimensions (the fourth being all of time, and the fifth being worlds accessed by the portal stones) are the safeguards that keep the DO imprisoned. This would make the entire pattern a 6th dimensional entity (encompassing all the portal worlds). This would be an interesting theory except for the fact that RJ says the actual location of the bore is irrelevant, whereas i feel that if it were a 2D prison the location would be absolutely determined.

Also, consider this as a back-story. The DO and the Creator originally created the universe together, after creation, the DO decided that he wanted to rule over it as a god, the Creator wanted to let it be. The DO then entered the universe, and knowing his intentions, the Creator sealed him away so as to keep bad things from happening. Being an awesome computer programmer, all he had to do was seal the DO away, and the pattern was able to take care of the rest (by introducing HotH, champions, etc).

Then there's the heart, which is not a simple muscle. The cells which comprise it are quite different from the usual cells in voluntary and involuntary muscles. They are part muscle cell, part nerve cell, and are connected up in structures which govern the heartbeat and may approach the complexity of the brain..


That's something i haven't heard before. I always considered the body as a "vessel". All the functions performed sub-consciously are done so we can turn the attention of our "soul" to more important things, like contemplating reality! The fact that the heart may indeed be part of of the functionality of the brain is very interesting, same with the eyes pre-processing information.

So it may not be just our brains that we think with, but other parts as well (the hair on our chests.. :biggrin: (well, not mine :wink: ))


I believe that depends on how you define thinking. I don't think about making my heart beat, or about processing what my eyes see. It may be that some information processing goes on outside of the brain, but that doesn't necessarily mean thought is taking place. I agree that the brain is, interpreting from what you said, considered to be the computer as a whole. I like your definition of the mind, where the mind is like the processor of a computer. It takes all the inputs the brain received and puts them together to form an image. I believe it could then turn these into an "output" which can be read like someone reads a computer screen. The someone reading would be the soul. Conscious thought is then the experience that arises from the soul "clicking" or "typing" using the brain. This interaction is one we would never see or be aware of, because we would be the computer. This could allow for the existence of a soul, but maintain the idea that the brain is an emergent phenomenon. A soul would not be able to interact with the "computer" unless there was enough left-over brain power to allow for interactions to take place.

The idea that it's relatively easy to relate these concepts to computers (both consciousness and the pattern) are an indication to me that there's a good possibility of them being correct. Computers are the up and coming solution to the world's problems, or so we're led to believe. Computers are a very logical and ordered system, just like our universe. However, i doubt that an other dimensional computer would be limited to binary :laugh: . Here's a page from the same site as the Block Universe, this one describes a possibility of a "Mathematical Universe".

Before talking about the quantum brain, here's a quote from Albert Einstein:

If there is any religion that could respond to the needs of modern science, it would be Buddhism.

As one of the greatest thinkers and physicists of our time, I think he had a point. Buddhism is about the idea of finding one's self, in essence, becoming one with the soul. It's about eliminating the ego, and ultimately attaining nirvana. Meditation is at the core of Buddhism, and I believe it's no accident that RJ chose to use Buddhism as the apparent religion of the AoL, and meditation as the prime means of accessing the OP. Religion has always been one of the prime means for society to explain why were here, to explain consciousness. Buddhism does this, as well as providing a guide on how to live to the highest potential. it makes me wonder why it isn't more popular in our world today.

#30 FarShainMael

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 02:36 AM

Hello again! Been a bit busy, sorry (but that's real life for you.. :wink: )

The DO and the Creator.. Having a mathematical view of dimension, I re-read your first paragraph, substituting 'level' (=4Dspacetime) for 'dimension'. I see this system as a stack of spacetimes rather than single dimensions, which would be just lines. So it changes to:

The DO and the creator are the same type of being, both existing outside of the pattern. One theory I've considered is that the DO is imprisoned in the 2nd level, and is therefore incapable of interacting with the 3rd level, except at SG where there used to be a hole into the 2nd level. The fourth and fifth levels (the fourth being <what>, and the fifth being worlds accessed by the portal stones) are the safeguards that keep the DO imprisoned. This would make the entire pattern a 6th level entity (encompassing all the portal worlds).



So this means that your problem

This would be an interesting theory except for the fact that RJ says the actual location of the bore is irrelevant, whereas i feel that if it were a 2D prison the location would be absolutely determined.


disappears, because entities in higher levels would have equal access to all points in space and all moments in time in Level One, and the location of the bore does indeed become irrelevant.

While we're on the subject of the Creator and the Dark One.. I have commented elsewhere that I'm not sure if you can have this balance. The Creator creates, but the DO immediately destoys, so the Creator creates again.. Then I thought that this is almost a quantum superposition of two states, the alive/dead cat belonging to one Erwin Schrödinger. Perhaps it is the function of the Dragonsoul to collapse this into Creation - and the DO wants to 'turn' him to make it collapse into destruction! :biggrin:


The nature of thinking.. I like your summary of this in terms of computing, it's a very useful model.

Oh, that's a LOVELY page from the 'Block Universe' site.. Yes, computers are usually designed as logical structures, but that's mainly because we poor engineers find it quite difficult to do anything else! For example, the reason computers work in binary are largely historical. It is quite easy to tell whether a switch is in one of two states (on, off), but it gets tricky if you want to detect a third (or more) intermediate state. It's a little easier if the switch in question is electronic, such as a transistor. Its output can be close to ground/0V (make this a logical zero) or close to the supply voltage (make this a logical 1). It is quite reasonable to 'divide up' the voltage between 0V and supply volts (say 9V, which is a common choice) into discrete levels, so you can have binary (2 levels), octal (8), decimal (10), and so on. The problems arise when you actually try to make these things out of real components to work in real systems, because you need a ciruit that will tell the difference between these levels to quite a high precision while remaining unaffected by noise and other problems. Manufacturing variations make this very difficult and expensive, so you stick to two levels and keep the strain off the budget.

Even so, no matter how fancy these circuits get, they are still precise and mathematical. Even those rather lovely Mandelbrot fractal diagrams are precisely specified by maths, though they hardly look it! But there are technologies which get away from this, for example, fuzzy logic:

The reasoning in fuzzy logic is similar to human reasoning. It allows for approximate values and inferences as well as incomplete or ambiguous data (fuzzy data) as opposed to only relying on crisp data (binary yes/no choices). Fuzzy logic is able to process incomplete data and provide approximate solutions to problems other methods find difficult to solve. Terminology used in fuzzy logic not used in other methods are: very high, increasing, somewhat decreased, reasonable and very low.


Another possibility is chaos theory. Like fractals, its character is precise rather than fuzzy, but it is very sensitive indeed to starting conditions - the well-known butterfly effect. I'm now wondering if the Wheel is chaotic, because the operation of free will means that the initial conditions starting the next Age - or indeed, next Turning - will always be a little bit different.

I don't know a lot about Buddhism (though I think I would disagree with Albert slightly, it's more a philosophy than a religion), but I think I should investigate! There is a growing trend within the Christian Church to consider objectively and constructively the views of other faiths and philosophies, to the benefit of all concerned.

Edited by FarShainMael, 09 March 2012 - 02:38 AM.

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#31 Tamyrlin1

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 11:46 AM

Using levels instead of dimensions is a neat way of thinking about it. I feel like i was kind of misleading with how i explained things. I said that i think the DO exists outside the pattern, which contradicts what i said about him being imprisoned in the 2nd dimension. Let me see if i can use your idea of levels to describe what i meant.

Level 1 - ?
Level 2 - DO's Prison
Level 3 - All of Space (Abode of the brain, all energy (that includes matter) that exists in one instant of time)
Level 4 - All of Time (Every position of all energy in space at every point in time it will ever be at)
Level 5 - All possible timelines (Portal worlds, every possible position of energy at any time)
Level 6 - Everything (Abode of the soul, origin of energy, theoretical source of the One Power)

Using that setup, the pattern would be the collapse of all possible timelines into the only possible Level 4 reality. Level 5 I believe is necessary because having all possible timelines allows for one timeline to exist that will be able to continue to exist indefinitely (there are neither beginnings nor endings to the Wheel of Time)

What you said about the Dragonsoul "collapsing" creation is similar to this idea. I thought about it heavily last night, but I'm not sure how to communicate it exactly, so it might seem a little bit jumbled.

All of reality, space and time, exists, but truly exists in only one state, ever. It always exists, because if it didn't always exist, it would never exist. Any other possibilities of what could have happened (different decisions for instance), are simply possibilities, nothing more. All decisions have already been made, and could only have been made one way for reality to continue existing indefinitely. This brings up the question of free will. If there is only one timeline that can continue indefinitely, then that means there is only one way to make a decision to allow it to continue indefinitely. So would free will exist in this theory? I think it would, let me quote the matrix against my better judgement. The Oracle says "You've already made the choice, now you have to understand why you made it." In the reality we perceive, the only reality that truly exists, the decisions we make have already been made, but they were still our decision.

It's tough to visualize what i mean by this. To help, consider the position of an electron, it's a probability based on Schrodinger's Equation. Once observed, it "collapses" into a definite position. But the electron will always be in the same position if observed at the same point in time, because it has to be. Any other positions it could have been are irrelevant, and only influence other possible timelines. If it wasn't at the same point at the same time, every time, reality would be inconsistent. Likewise, other possible timelines can exist, but only one reality truly exists, the reality observed by all souls. The other positions that the electron could have been in don't matter because the only position that matters is the one that allows time to continue indefinitely.

Now, the decisions of the dragonsoul could help the DO in his goal to "collapse" reality into destruction. But by the nature of how the pattern works, reality MUST continue to exist. It might get to the point where the only timeline that exists is the one and only reality capable of existing and continuing to exist, and that one somehow prevents the DO from collapsing reality completely, even with the dragonsoul possibly helping him. Theoretically at this point, none of the portal worlds would exist, and then after this point they would begin to re-emerge (once the DO is completely resealed or something). This wouldn't contradict what's stated in the book, (that if the DO is sealed, he's sealed in all worlds) because, once freed, he would be able to instantly destroy all other worlds (the ones where no one was there to put up a fight to stop him.) Incidentally i believe this is what could happen once Rand breaks the seals before the last battle, the DO gets to destroy all the portal worlds, but true reality will continue to exist because it has to (and because Rand's a boss).

Now, after all that, I'm sitting here trying to work in the quantum brain theory to what i just proposed, and my mind is just drawing blanks :dry: . So ill move on to the rest of what you said.

I started college as an electrical engineer, so i have some knowledge of systems using ternary logic or higher. They're pretty interesting, though, like you said, not very practical, at least not yet.

Chaos theory is quite interesting, and is definitely a topic i want to get into at some point. I don't really know much about it so I'd have to do some research, which i don't have time for right now (spring break just ended :sad: ) A chaos theory based idea would certainly fit into the model above, exactly how i cant be sure. Probably the best place would be, like you said, to help account for free will.

As for the quote by Einstein, i think he probably understood that Buddhism was more of a philosophy than a religion, and i also think that's probably part of the reason he picked it. Philosophy is sort of a science, i called it a pseudo-science earlier in the thread. Philosophers base their ideas primarily on sound reasoning. An idea that makes sense, leads to these conclusions, which has these consequences, which leads to...etc. Religion is based on tradition and belief, without considering reason, at least for the most part. Philosophy is in my opinion the link necessary to bridge the gap between science and religion. And Buddhism is undoubtedly one of the greatest philosophies of our time. Maybe it's time Buddhism was considered a religion, more people might be inclined to follow it then!

#32 FarShainMael

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 02:45 AM

Quick response as I may be away from the boards for a while.

Perhaps Level 6 is congruent with T'A'R..

I'm brewing a theory about Schrodinger's Dragon :biggrin: , hope to put it up in due course.

About there being only one 'true' spacetime: James Blish explores this idea in 'Jack of Eagles', which is about a man called Danny Caiden who develops psi powers, and is helped to explore them by a physicist called Todd. Todd has a theory about layers of reality like piles of filmstrips, and speaks of a 'main' reality which Danny and Todd have to protect from the baddies (Lanfear, are you listening??)

http://www.troynovan...-of-Eagles.html

Let us know when your quantum thoughts get sorted out!

Edited by FarShainMael, 14 March 2012 - 02:46 AM.

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Carai an Caldazar!

#33 Tamyrlin1

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 02:17 PM

I've tried to leave T'A'R out of this discussion so far, because i see it as a neat idea that RJ came up with, but is largely used as a plot strengthener. Of course, I've thought on it, but not heavily. I see it as a sort of inter-dimensional zone. From the descriptions were given in the books it seems to be made up of the portal worlds that are more closely linked to Randland. If it were Level 6, i think it would be much much harder to physically describe, and would not be nearly as similar as it is to Randland. I do believe that T'A'R is closely tied to the soul, judging by the wolf spirits, HotH, etc. But just how it's linked is tough to determine.

One thing concerning dreams i've considered, is that when we dream, what if we're dreaming of potential realities? The more real our dream seems, the closer to our current timeline it actually is. The state of lucid dreaming could be actually entering into T'A'R. But another way i see it, is that RJ chose to link the appearance of T'A'R to the actual experience of lucid dreaming, like he did so many other things in his book, to create a sense of realism. T'A'R was just a really neat way of explaining it.

Here's how i've progressed on sorting out my quantum thoughts so far.

I was thinking about memories and how the soul could still be explained to account for different personalities, not remembering past lives, and other such things. If we go back to the computer brain theory, memories would be stored physically, that is, through neural connections in the brain. The soul, interacting through the medium of the brain, can only access memories that are stored on the hardware. That means that all the soul's decisions, actions, thoughts, etc, are determined based on the events that took place to shape one's life. Each time the soul is "reborn" into the world, it begins to accumulate an entirely new set of experiences, and therefore the same soul could have any personality in any life.

Now, the quantum brain. This is going to be hard to explain, and probably hard to follow. If we consider a timeline, it can be separated into a series of "moments". The soul, whether in a body or not, follows the timeline, but is outside of it. If the soul is in a body, that would suggest it is "touching" the timeline. Now, lets say that, for all intensive purposes, the soul has a 4-D "width", similar to how our bodies have a 3-D volume. The magnitude of this width is one "moment". I suggest this to account for quantum reflexes that have been shown experimentally (reacting to something before it happens). The soul would have the ability to see a small, but potentially finite, length of time all at once, whether it is aware of it or not. Another possibility, that could account for people like Edgar Cayce, is that the soul has an infinite 4-D width, or maybe a width equal to the lifespan of that person. But the width is more like a probability distribution. I made a paint graphic attempting to describe this. It's easiest for the soul to experience the highest probability moment, but can potentially see further. Edgar Cayce managed to make predictions, many of which have come to pass, by entering a trance during which people would ask him questions about anything, and he would give an answer. After waking up from the trance he would remember nothing. There are other people that exhibited similar abilities, nostradamus being the most famous, but but they were all limited by their time in describing what they saw.

It might be possible also to take it one step further and include a "length" dimension to the soul. The length would be in a direction perpendicular to time, in other words, across timelines. This would allow for agreement with the idea that there might be other timelines (whether or not they are just possibilities, or if they are as real as our timeline).

I can't wait for more research to be done on the quantum brain. It is one of the more fascinating areas of contemporary science out there. I enjoy theorizing like this, but i hate the fact that, for now, i cant do anything to turn them into something other than theories. All i can do is hope that the evidence begins to back them up!

Looking forward to your Schrodinger's Dragon theory!

#34 Matthew T

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 01:21 AM

I'm new to this site, and while I don't have a maths background, nor even a science one I do have a rather extensive background in reading sci-fi and fantasy from a very young age and a book I read when I was younger by Madeline L'Engle called A Wrinkle in Time brought up the use of something called a tesseract (later referred to as a wormhole) to travel with, which as it was explained in the book is simply a bending of space time to make two points stand in the same place, could this particular method be what Rand was using when he explained that he made both places the same? That's what I was thinking when I read that particular part, and I got to wondering if maybe what Rand was doing was creating a wormhole to travel with. A wiki link explaining the novel is here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Wrinkle_in_Time I dunno if any of that is even theoretically possible or not, but it's definitely interesting to read about, especially with shows like Stargate out there.

Edited by Matthew T, 19 May 2012 - 01:22 AM.


#35 RandA lThor

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 09:16 AM

I read this book too, so I know what you are takling about. Thhe male portion of traveling talks about boring a hole through the pattern and stepping through. I'm guessing that this is like taking a string and bringing it together in the way that I think that he is passing outside of the pattern, bringing the parts closer, and walking through.

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#36 Thrasymachus

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 11:17 AM

Ok, so, you know how the Wheel of Time universe is meant to be at a later date to our own time. But we're pretty dang sure that our own universe isn't cyclical, at least, not with the accelerating expansion going on since the Big Bang. So, here's my proposal:

Progress human civilization another couple of thousand years or so, we develop rudimentary interstellar travel that lets us explore a small corner of the Milky Way, and we discover the Ogier and the Finns and establish relations with them, but we become quite good at high energy, multi-dimensional physics, to the extent that we can create bubble universes who's internal properties we can engineer, and that we can travel between. We discover that the Big Rip scenario for the endgame of our universe is true, and proceeding more rapidly than we thought, putting our continued existence in danger.

So some of our scientists engineer a bubble universe that is a more or less perfect mirror of our local universe in such a way that it proceeds cyclically, in order to avoid a Big Rip scenario in our new home, and genetically engineer a brain structure that allows the conscious manipulation of emergent forces within that universe. We invite the Ogier to join us, and accommodate their unique physiological needs that prevent them from leaving their home world for long by creating the Stedding on the Mirror Earth, and we invite the Finns as well, but they go their own way, creating their own bubble universe, but fouling up some of its physical properties a bit.

As we move the first humans and Ogier to the bubble universe, a political controversy erupts between people who think that it is our destiny to die with our universe, and the creators of the bubble universe. The opponents state their intention to seek out and destroy this bubble universe, to which the creators respond by making a near infinite number of mirror bubble copies of the original bubble, together with the transplanted people and Ogier in it. Undaunted, opponents continue to seek out and destroy these mirror-bubbles before the Big Rip hits, but they have to locate them first, which is where the Bore comes in. By drilling through their bubble universe, the inhabitants of that bubble broadcast their "location" in multi-dimensional space to the original universe, and the opponents lock on and attempt to undermine the physics of that universe and destroy it. Resealing the Bore causes the original universe to lose the signal, saving them from certain doom. The True Power, the dark one's energy, is sort of the inverse of the energy used to create and engineer the bubble in the first place.

#37 RandA lThor

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 11:54 AM

You are probably the only person in the world that has thought of that. I'm not saying that that's a bad idea, I'm just saying that making an actual connection to our world and the wheel of time is almost impossible. Looking from a scientific perspective, it's pretty much impossible for this to happen, but it is a really good theory.

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#38 Thrasymachus

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 12:18 AM

The effort's almost got to be made though, to connect our world to the Wheel of Time, because that's right there in the Wheel of Time mythos. RJ confirmed that our Age is an earlier (or later, depending on one's perspective) Age to the 3rd Age, and there's supposed to be some myths from our Age that survived into the 3rd Age and even an artifact, a hood ornament from a Mercedes Benz. The trouble is that it's virtually impossible to reconcile the physics and cosmology that we pretty much understand now with the Wheel of Time cosmology and physics. That is, unless you can move to a different universe with a different physics and cosmology, one more or less tailored to the Wheel of Time. Then it's just a matter of justifying the tailoring.

#39 RandA lThor

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 06:53 AM

Right, I didn't disagree, I'm just saying that trying to connect this to real life would be wrong, because this obviously can't happen. It's better to leave this as a completely seperate world.

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