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All you physics savvy peole out there


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#1 Tamyrlin1

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 02:32 PM

http://www.soulsofdi...SODA_intro.html

This is a book i stumbled on, and found it to be an amazing read. For a long time now i've held the idea that Robert Jordan could be more than just a fantasy writer. As most of you know he had degrees in physics, and is very well versed in how the world works. The more i learn about the world, the more i see Robert Jordan's ideas coming to life. Channeling might seem like a far-fetched possibility, but i see it as a challenge to be overcome. Imagine the beginning of a new Age of Legends becoming reality.

The book relies heavily on theoretical ideas in physics, but produces a lot of evidence to back up the claims. It can be sort of tough to read at some points, but I hope you can see a lot of the connections that i saw between it and the WoT.

The more relevant parts are chapters 3 and 4, but i would recommend reading from the beginning.
Chapter 3
Chapter 4

------------TOPIC RECAP--------------

Just to sum things up a little bit so people can see what's been discussed so far and how it pertains to the WoT. Each topic is also a link to a page relevant to that area.

Quantum Mechanics / Quantum Chromodynamics
-Study of the strange behavior of the quantum world
-Quantum Entanglement and how it could apply to Traveling
-Schrodinger's Wave equation and how uncertainty could lead to the Aether physics model

The Quantum Brain / Neuroscience
-Brain occasionally signals something happening BEFORE it happens, an indication that a non-relativistic event occured
-May be the only way to explain the concept of the soul, an integral part of nearly every religion on earth, as well as the WoT

Special Relativity / E=MC2
-Matter is Energy
-Helps support the aether physics model

The Multi-verse
-All possibilities of what could happen, do happen, but not on our "plane" of 3D existance
-Related to the idea of the portal stones used in TGH, and mentioned throughout the series

Zero-Point Energy / Aether Physics
-An all pervading "substance", which gives rise to particles and energy through vibrations and propagations
-Uses the idea of a torus to explain the stability of the fundamental particles
-Was proposed by many ancient cultures as the source of life
-Evidence from QM and Relativity supports this theory
-Is so similar to the true-source that they could almost be one and the same

Edited by Tamyrlin1, 29 February 2012 - 06:22 PM.


#2 Cybertrolloc

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 05:53 PM

Dan Brown ref, ick. Chopra, double ick. Or maybe reverse those two.

Review of things physics isn't horrible (ch 1). Yes, focuses way too much on specific people with some baffling exclusions that'd easily fit into the word count, and seems to leave the last 60odd years of quant out of the mix, but I've seen much worse.

I wonder what kind of conspiracy the major mapping services must be operating under to misplace the location of the great pyramids, etc... :) Desperately needs some fact checking.

About all I know about neuroscience is how to spell it, so can't comment substantively on that chapter.

Zero point energy I'm not to familiar with either.

Chaos theory is just a bit older than that...also a bit weirder iirc :) Can only remember very specific cases to get chaotic behavior out of a system with only two degrees of freedom, but it's not specific enough to be sure that's what it's talking about.

So I'd certainly take with a healthy pinch of salt outside the portions I'm not hep to commenting on.

Don't believe everything you read on the internet. Thomas Jefferson


#3 Tamyrlin1

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 06:45 PM

Oh definitely, there are certainly things worth checking the accuracy of. The idea of this post was mostly to spark conversation, as i have a huge interest in theoretical physics.

I wonder what kind of conspiracy the major mapping services must be operating under to misplace the location of the great pyramids, etc... :) Desperately needs some fact checking.

i agree, i remember at one point he stated that the pyramids were located along the prime meridian, and i'm pretty sure that's false. but do what i do and simply let logic determine what you can believe.

About all I know about neuroscience is how to spell it, so can't comment substantively on that chapter.

The neuroscience section essentially connects the idea of consciousness to that of quantum mechanics. It suggestss that the different cells in the body are able to instantaneously communicate with each other through the means of quantum interactions. Studies have been run showing that reactions of the body can happen quicker than an electrical signal would allow them to. Basically the idea is that rather than just the brain being the computer, the entire human body is actually a functioning quantum computer.

Zero point energy I'm not to familiar with either.

Think of zero point energy as the equivalent of the True Source, it is everywhere, at all times, and is the fuel of creation. The zero point energy has been associated with the aether of ancient times proposed by several civilizations. Supposedly it interacts through the idea of torsion waves. The aether warps and undulates in such a way as to produce a torus, and this torus is what gives rise to elementary particles. A torus is a shape, like a donut, that feeds back in on itself. in this way the stability of particles is allowed for. All of this is beginning to gain credit because of studies done on the vacuum, which appears to not be a vacuumm at all, but is seething with virtual particles popping into existence all the time.

As for chaos theory, i dont know much about it either except that entropy increases with time. The only WoT connection i can draw is that entropy is the equivalent of the Dark One :blink: But i prefer to believe that robert jordan created the dark one simply as a means of telling a good story :happy:

One thing that i found interesting is how much some of the information relates to the Pattern. It suggests that there was more before what we know, Atlantis for instance. The idea that memories become legend, which fade to myth and are forgotton. Well, Atlantis would be myth at this point. Dgypt, the Mayans, Sumerians, Babylon, those are the legends. And another ancient one that they talk about, called Mu from asia almost 50,000 years ago, could be myth on the verge of being forgotten. I dont see any way to truly know for sure whether they existed, but it's cool to think of the possibilities. The evidence is definitely out there.

Edited by Tamyrlin1, 29 January 2012 - 08:51 PM.


#4 Noah Ruan

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 01:21 PM

This is a post that deserves much more TLC and discussion. We must talk good sir. Excellent topic. :wub:
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#5 Tamyrlin1

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 03:53 PM


I think pseudo-science is the wrong term to use. Much of what i talked about is pretty well understood.


True, most of what you've written does indeed relate to physics and WoT, I have no problem with that. RJ did venture in the outer limits of what we know (and possibly might never know), and I suspect on purpose, after all this is a work of fiction. Trying to explain the One Power and the Pattern with what we know of physics today is a useless exercise. He simply has an advantage over many other authors because of his background in physics, which makes him able to make a system that more coherent and logical than the average fantasy novel. But that doesn't mean it is any closer to reality. See the difference?

The articles you quoted however were filled with so many far out claims that whatever was interesting there unfortunately got lost.

Quantum physics, while an interesting field, is also one of the most misunderstood areas of science. I would venture as far as saying that by far most of what is written about it is plain bogus. It is misused by the "New Age" movement, it is misused by a huge number of "alternative" therapists, philosophers, "doctors" etc. The media is also guilty, most of what we see about it is quacks wanting to sell us quackery that claims some beneficial effect by proxy of "quantum" energy/mechanics/whatever. There is a good quote out there: "If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't understand quantum mechanics." Or to put it this way: Deepak Chopra is no physicist.

Aaaaand... to try to reign it in again.... I think we agree to some extent about how RJ draws on physics, but I would say that all he did was use his knowledge as something to build a fictional system on, while you seem to imply that he drew on something more. That "more" part raises some red flags with me because of the territory that comes with what you've quoted and seem to be hinting at. If your (quite interesting) thoughts about deconstructing channeling would have been presented as a philosophic exercise instead of claiming to be "quantum science", we would have been on the same page. :smile:  


I agree, the WoT is a completely fictional universe. One thing that needs to be remembered is that Jordan's primary goal was to tell a great and convincing story, which he did wonderfully. What i think Jordan drew on, the "something more" you call it, is what he truly believed. Coming right out and suggesting to the physics community and proposing a theory he has for an eternal cycle of time would be preposterous, and instantly dismissed. What better way to get his ideas out there than to write a fantasy epic? Obviously this is just hopeful speculation on my part, but I take everything i know and believe into account as well. And that's essentially what my argument comes down to, it's a belief, founded upon as much logic and reason as i can muster from everything i've learned.

Also, im curious as to what makes you believe that quantum physics is misunderstood. It's actually quite well understood, the reasons for why the quantum world behaves as it does is a completely different subject. Quantum entanglement, quantum tunneling, Schrodingers cat, wave particle duality, these are all areas of quantum mechanics that have been shown to be as close to true as possible in a lab. Yes, the media distorts it heavily, but i've taken college courses in quantum mechanics, relativity, and nano-technology, and nearly all of it has been validated through heavy testing.

The best way that i can give you to think about this is to use the WoT not as a bible, but as a guide. Use it to make you think, to make you question. I dont take ideas out of the WoT and try to make physics match it, i take physics and try to relate it to the WoT. There would obviously be a large gap in my reasoning if I were to approach it from the other way around.

also, i dont claim that channeling is "quantum science," that was simply a quick possibility i could come up with for how physics could be applied. I guess you're right though, i should have stressed that it was more philosophical than anything. But you get the idea :wink:

#6 Alric

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 04:35 PM

I admit my initial response and to some degree my second was influenced by the article you initially linked (which made my BS detector go completely bonkers :biggrin:). As long as it doesn't get into that territory I'll be very interested in seeing where this goes.

My approach (partly influenced by very strange stuff encountered online) is to stick to things that can be tested/measured quantitatively and be peer reviewed. Or, actually, not stick to that, but deal with the rest as philosophy or food for thought. But if something smells funny and cites things that are not based on science at all, I usually dismiss it outright because I don't have the time or interest in verifying the remaining claims myself when there are probably better sources to go to.

I don't want to derail this thread as well, I just hope I made my concerns clear. It certainly is an interesting field and I've also taken physics related courses both in high school and college and always been intrigued by the outer limits. But it is interesting to see that much of the thinking in these fields are indeed more in the realms of philosophy than in quantitative and testable sciences. At least Hawking doesn't write self-helf books or tries to sell us anything, but what he does now is more musing than reasearch IMO.



#7 Alric

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 04:53 PM

Some interesting quotes here:

http://www.theorylan...view-search.php

Search for "physics", I couldn't link directly to the results.

RJ does indeed mention quantum physics at points.



#8 Noah Ruan

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 05:02 PM

.

Edited by Noah Ruan, 17 February 2012 - 05:06 PM.

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#9 Tamyrlin1

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 05:39 PM

Those are some really nice quotes to help see into RJ's head. One that i think is especially intriguing is this...

As a matter of fact, the thing that I find very interesting is that...I don't really follow theoretical physics to any degree now, and haven't for more than twenty years.

Isn't it funny how, even though he stopped following theoretical physics, here we are today talking about how so much of what he wrote kind of agrees with it?

I'll use the claim that right after I had learned about this Divine Cosmo's business I also grabbed me an interesting looking book called Eye of The World and was completely thrown for a loop (this being about 7 months ago) And now I find this post.

The wheel weaves as the wheel wills.


It's funny you should say this, because i had what i would consider a wheel weaving as it wills moment as well. its a sorta long story so i dont really wanna get into it, but i might share some of it if you're interested.

To describe how i feel "The wheel weaves as the wheel wills" works is a little more in depth than other things. It involves the idea of the multiverse, however, the wheel isnt weaving to contain a "DO", it just is, and it just will. Everything that can happen, will happen, whether in our universe or not. the threads of the pattern would just be connections between our soul and the realm of the wheel. Our consciousness would be what gives the wheel its power. when we think, when we move, we alter and shape the wheel. So, it is almost like the world does in fact revolve around us. There's something strange about consciousness, something that i dont think science will be able to ever prove, but there's always room for theories.

Ta'veren is an interesting area to consider. And it's also one of the area's that i have a very hard time portraying. Looking back in history it's easy to see people who might have been Ta'veren, but that doesnt really mean anything. This is something that RJ obviously intended. In the quotes you linked he said that he drew history more than he drew on science. The only way to know for sure would be if someone started seeing auras around people :biggrin:

psychology is an area of science, some might call it pseudo-science, that i've read a lot of material on. Much of it supports the ideas of channeling, the pattern, etc. but much of it also refutes it. In this field ive taken what information is available, and created my own ideas. Someday when more knowledge is available about how the brain works, about what drives it, then maybe more serious consideration can be given on the matter. This is an area where, if i were to try and bring in physics, i would be stretching it very thin, and it would hold almost no weight.

Edited by Tamyrlin1, 18 February 2012 - 09:06 AM.


#10 Tamyrlin1

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 05:42 PM

double post

Edited by Tamyrlin1, 17 February 2012 - 05:42 PM.


#11 Cybertrolloc

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 06:47 PM

Zero point energy I'm not to familiar with either.

Think of zero point energy as the equivalent of the True Source, it is everywhere, at all times, and is the fuel of creation. The zero point energy has been associated with the aether of ancient times proposed by several civilizations. Supposedly it interacts through the idea of torsion waves. The aether warps and undulates in such a way as to produce a torus, and this torus is what gives rise to elementary particles. A torus is a shape, like a donut, that feeds back in on itself. in this way the stability of particles is allowed for. All of this is beginning to gain credit because of studies done on the vacuum, which appears to not be a vacuumm at all, but is seething with virtual particles popping into existence all the time.

Sorry for my bad phrasing. I've had a few courses in advanced quant, just haven't done any further research into it in years beyond articles I find interesting in Science Daily and similar, so can't say more than any decent text that uses advanced math. Whatever you're talking about doesn't seem to be ZPE, then you mash it with a number of different concepts that I'm not going to take the time to explain.

I'm sure there's plenty of instances where RJ didn't consider real world science. Consider Traveling gateways, there's a few different things there that are pretty bad when you think about them and throw some numbers down (real world effects: what would happen if you open a window in say Orlando to Denver)?

This isn't to say that science isn't cool or the world we live in is boring or that science has the tenth part of everything conclusively figured out :)

Edited by Cybertrolloc, 19 February 2012 - 06:51 PM.

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#12 Tamyrlin1

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 08:02 PM

Yea, that was pretty confusing, ill admit. I was trying to get a lot of ideas out without explaining them all that much. Wikipedia has a pretty good page on ZPE. Ill try and sum it up as best I can.

ZPE is taken to be the lowest possible energy state of a quantum mechanical system, also termed the ground state. Because of quantum fluctuations inside of a vacuum, the zero point energy is always greater than zero, that is to say, there's something where there was thought to be nothing. The experimental evidence we have for this used two parallel plates, seperated by a very small distance. The space between the plates was then turned into a vacuum, and what was found is the plates experienced an attractive force. This effect was termed the Casimir effect.

The aether is what i next jumped to in my post. The aether is something unproven, it is not scientifically validated. But it has its place in theoretical physics. In ancient times, a number of different civilizations all had variations on it, the aether, the Qi in china, and i wish i could think of others right now, but I know they're out there. Point being, all of these ancient civilizations had formulated a theory about it long before the capability of physically describing and explaining it was possible. A new theory on the aether, which is capable of describing ZPE, uses the principles of quantum mechanics, specifically the idea that a particle is described by a probability wave. The waves of a particle are thought of as a torus, a donut shaped object. When sine waves are added they can either destructively, or constructively interfere. The torus is a 3-dimensional object that results from the combined probability waves interfering in just the right way so as to produce a "stable" interference pattern which translates into what we describe as a particle, like an electron or proton. But we also now know that the proton and neutron are made up of 3 quarks each. And ultimately, we dont know how far the subatomic particles go, so there could be more. But they would all be made up of these torus'.

But in any case, one of the main problems in physics today is how do we account for mass? The Large Hadron Collider (LHC) is using high energy beams in an attempt to find the Higgs Boson particle. This particle is theorized to give rise to the mass of everything by interacting with the all pervading Higgs Field. It is a convenient solution to our perfect standard model of particle physics, and it misses the big idea that einstein came up with; that is, mass is proportional to energy through the equation E=MC^2. Mass IS energy. So, why cant mass just be a very dense region of energy, why does it have to be termed mass and treated completely differently? this is essentially what the aether theory aims to show. Atoms are just waves of aether (energy) circling back in on themselves until interrupted by a different wave of aether. The transmission of energy (heat, gravity, electromagnetism, etc.) would be just another fluctuation in the aether rippling through the fabric of space until it either dissipates into the surroundings and is undetectable, or it interacts with something else, like another atom.

Our body seamlessly converts matter into energy all the time in order to power our brain. But if this theory begins to hold weight, then all were actually doing is changing matter-energy into electromagnetic signals which are then fed through our nerves to our body to perform a specific function. Were constantly shuffling energy to and from different parts of our body. In another topic i talked about our brain being a quantum computer, there's also a section in the book i linked in my first post here that talks about it. Essentially, if channeling were to happen, it would be along this path.

Anyway, I'm tired and about to go to bed, and i've written a lot here already, so if you want to here more about my ideas on the quantum brain i'll have to do it tomorrow. I do want to talk about gateways and traveling too, i've put a lot of thought into how they "could" work, not merely by channeling either. I see them as being the only practical way for our civilization to traverse the galaxy.

Edited by Tamyrlin1, 19 February 2012 - 08:04 PM.


#13 FarShainMael

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 02:18 AM

Fascinating post, which has pushed my physics buttons!

I took physics up to uni level, though my degrees are in electronics. They did contain modules of physics and maths, though.

On the topices you covered:

Zero-point energy (ZPE) Know about it, happy with it.

The aether: Know about that. I have some problems with the 'official' view of a particle such as an electron being a dimensionless point whose position is described by a probability wave. I don't think a particle can be dimensionless; I think there is a lower limit on its size, namely the Planck length = about 10^-35m. Very very very*100 small but NOT zero.

However, I do like the notion of interfernce between waves, and I view particles as being the product of this interference directly, not through some probability function. Do you know about Fourier series and solitons?

Mass: remains a problem, am watching the LHC with much interest!

Mass-energy: oh dear. I'm afraid you have dropped off a bit here with the statement

Our body seamlessly converts matter into energy all the time in order to power our brain.


Assuming that you are referring back to your previous comment about E=mc^2, that is.

Let's do some maths..

Consider an 8oz bar of chocolate, a high-energy food. In metric units that's about 227g. Assume that 200g of this mass is fat and sugar (it may be less, but trust me, it'll make no significant difference if it's only 100g!) Let's transform that completely to energy using good old E=mc^2. (Note: if you try this, and get answers slightly different to mine, blame the differences in our computer calculators!)

m = 200g = 0.2 kg
c = 299,792,458 m/s

(from http://physics.nist....bin/cuu/Value?c )

E = 0.2 * 299,792,458 * 299,792,458 joules (where joules = watts * seconds)

= 1.797510720 * 10^16......

or about 18000000000000000 joules.

That number's a bit big, so let's see how long you could run a thousand-watt electric fire on this much energy. Divide by 1000 gives

18000000000000 seconds.

There are 60 s to a minute, 60 mins to an hour, or 3600 s to an hour, so that's:

5000000000 hours

Divide by 24 to give days, then by 365 to give years:

570776.2557 years.

That bar of chocolate, if COMPLETELY transformed into energy, would run a 1kW fire for more than half a million years....

So it's not E=mc^2 that gives us our energy, but a far more modest source: energy of chemical reaction. Basically we burn this bar of choc in oxygen, but a LOT more slowly, using digestive enzymes. To find out how much, check the calorie rating on the wrapper. It'll be in kcal; multiply by 4200 to get joules. One kcal could run that fire for 4.2 seconds!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calorie

Please feel free to check my working.. it's easy to gain or lose zeroes in something like this :wink:

Even so, I don't think it detracts from your main argument, namely, that our bodies handle energy anyway.

Finally, the quantum brain: This, too, is something I find very very interesting indeed.

Edited by FarShainMael, 20 February 2012 - 02:22 AM.

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#14 Tamyrlin1

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 07:31 AM

The aether: Know about that. I have some problems with the 'official' view of a particle such as an electron being a dimensionless point whose position is described by a probability wave.

I dont like the idea of it being dimensionless either, however, i most certainly do believe in the idea that it is described by a probability wave. I assume you know about the double slit experiment? electrons fired at a screen could either go through one slit or the other, it turns out they go through both until they are measured, etc. There is pretty solid evidence concerning the probablity wave, which is governed by Schrodinger's Equation.

I don't think a particle can be dimensionless; I think there is a lower limit on its size, namely the Planck length = about 10^-35m. Very very very*100 small but NOT zero.

I want to refer to this comic to illustrate what i think about this idea :P

I know a little about Fourier series, but have never heard of solitons. However, after reading that link a torus is basically a soliton with a few minor differences. The soliton idea of a "packet" is exactly how photons are described, "packets" of energy.

Mass-energy: oh dear. I'm afraid you have dropped off a bit here with the statement


When I said we seamlessly convert matter into energy I didnt mean for it to be interpreted with E=MC^2 being applied to 100% of the what we eat. We consume food, which, through cellular processes, breaks it down into ATP (Adenosine tri-phosphate) which is the basically what we consider as our energy source. The energy essentially comes from the exchange of electrons through the cell wall, but the brain is able to use this exchange to produce an electrical signal. electricity is generally described as the flow of electrons from point A to point B, which is how information is able to make it to our muscles so quickly. overall, our brain is a complex construction of billions of electrical signals which is sometimes called the brain wave. An electro-magnetic field results from the interactions of all these signals, and can be read by an MRI machine. An electric field is not something that has mass, so the energy to produce that electric field needed to come from somewhere. This means that at some point, a small amount of the mass of the food you eat was converted, using E=MC^2, into energy.

So, all in all, i wasn't implying that what you eat turns into pure energy, simply that in some way, our body is capable of taking mass, and using it to heat our body, to perform calculations, and do all kinds of things that would never be possible otherwise. Im glad you pointed that out though, as you sparked another idea.

If you consider the aether as a field of energy that exists everywhere, and our brain produces an electric field, also energy, wouldn't it make sense if we could somehow learn to project that field, or rather, extend it out into the aether and thereby influence the world around us? With the view of the quantum brain, this picture has the possibility to become a reality. Neuroscience is a field that is constantly evolving. Scientists and researchers all over the globe are trying to construct a comprehensive map of the neural circuitry of the brain. While I believe this will help us in treating brain disorders, and understanding the HOW of the brain, it will ultimately leave us still pondering the question of WHY? Why are we conscious? I believe we will ultimately have to turn to the idea of a soul. An entity that is not of our 3-D world, something that exists elsewhere. Of course, science totally dislikes that idea. but maybe at some point the soul will be viewed similar to time, always there, perceivable, but ultimately unexplained.

Edited by Tamyrlin1, 20 February 2012 - 01:12 PM.


#15 FarShainMael

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 01:10 AM

The double slit experiment: I know it, and yes, it's what shows that particles have a wave nature - but not, IMHO, what that nature is. Could be probability; could be aether - the Schrodinger equation could be interpreted either way. Anyway, that's just a detail.

The Quantum & Pixel comic: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Absolutely hilarious, I'll forward the link to #2 son who will appreciate it greatly! But recall that the Planck length is ridiculously small, so pixelation would not be apparent even at atomic scales, never mind our macroscale. You may like to do a web search on 'discrete physics'.

Solitons: What I like about them is they are self-contained bundles which can bounce off each other or even tunnel through each other without destroying themselves. Very particle-like.

Here's a lovely example animation of those wave-packets we're talking about:

http://en.wikipedia....ket_(dispersion).gif

The brain and the aether, and influencing the material world: I find this fascinating (and I'm entirely at home with the concept of the soul - as a Christian, I'm quite sure that I have one). And if the brain can do this, of course, we're looking at channelling!
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#16 Tamyrlin1

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 11:24 AM

glad you liked the pixel comic! I went and did a quick search of discrete physics, and found This Page which just sort of helps to reinforce what we've been talking about concerning the aether. I found a few other interesting reads too, but none worth mentioning.

the link you put up for your animation didnt work, not sure if it was moved or what.

The rest of this post will be dedicated to traveling. For the moment, I'm going to ignore the idea of channeling. I'm of the belief that if we are to ever explore the cosmos, physically traversing the 3rd dimension is an incredibly inefficient way to do so. Even at the speed of light it would take years to cover the immense distances between stars. Not to mention all the problems that arise from relativity and actually trying to accelerate to that speed. I like the idea of warp drive, that is, riding space-time like a surfer rides a wave. However, that too i find to be inefficient.

In reality, the best way to cover the space between stars is to basically teleport. The type of teleportation I'm talking about isn't like the star trek transporter, but, im sure you could have guessed, WoT traveling. Whether we have the ability to channel or not, chances are pretty good we can create technology that can do essentially the same thing. When Rand explains to Egwene how he travels, he says he makes the place he's trying to go, and where he is now, the "same". Whether RJ intended this or not, that sounds very similar to Quantum Entanglement. Quantum Entanglement has been shown to work in labs. It's what happens when 2 particles (or photons) are linked in such a way that any change made on one of the particles, instantaneously effects the other particle. And when i say instantaneously, i mean as far as our instruments can detect, there is no time difference between the 2 events occurring. My thoughts on how this happens are rather vague, but essentially it involves other dimensions, like many of my theories. But that's irrelevant for now. The fact is it works.

Now, what i believe traveling involves, is the synchronized instantaneous entanglement of a group of photons in an area (a gateway) with another group somewhere else. The original states are then reversed. the states of the photons before the reversal are linked to the states of the 3D space around them. By this i mean, the photons at the edge inside of the area are in some way linked to the atoms/photons just beyond the edge of the area. After reversal, the states of the photons of the destination are now the states of the photons from the area of departure. I made a simple paint picture of what i mean by this. (i forgot to include a 2nd column of photons on each side, each photon would be linked with the photon beside it as well.) from that link, whenever something "touches" any photon in the plane, or gateway, they're touching a photon with a state linked to the destination however far away. And that particle is then instantaneously transported. Now, still ignoring channeling, i believe this is possible in our world today.

Since the discovery of quantum entanglement a few years ago, scientists have already entangled macroscopic diamonds. that's a huge leap forward. I believe that by setting up an array of lasers, or fields, or some form of energy arranged in a grid, it should be possible to entangle all the photons/atoms in an area. The only issue that i cant overcome is how do you link this array to a spot lightyears away?

#17 FarShainMael

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 03:44 AM

LOVE the page on DP! You might also like to look at Stephen Wolfram on the subject.

That link got mangled somehow, I'll try again:

Wave packet

Space travel. Another subject hopelessly entangled with my heart ( :biggrin: ) I have to agree with you - a rocket is NOT going to get us where we want to go. It has serious trouble getting us off the Earth, and won't do so in one go, hence the multi-stage arrangements. (I read the maths once of why this is so, but I've forgotten the details.)

Occasionally I ask myself: how do we get from A to B? (stating the problem in its most basic form.) My position here at my keyboard is deep within the Earth's gravitational well. I must climb out of this well somehow (using a lot of energy), then clamber up the Sun's gravitational well if I want to get to Mars (using a LOT more energy) and the other outer planets, then abseil down their wells (perhaps regaining some of that energy). And vice versa for the return. It would be much better if I could simply 'tunnel through' from the bottom of the Earth well to the bottom of the Mars well; then I'd only have the Sun to worry about.. and that problem would be writ large for transfers between star systems.

It's possible that an 'entanglement-transfer' of the type you describe may offer a chance to teleport if it could get around this energy problem. The SF writer Larry Niven considered the energy implications of using what he called 'displacement booths' to teleport between high and low altitudes. He wrote a short story called 'A kind of murder' in which
Spoiler


But I suspect that's just a matter of technology. A more important problem, which you mentioned, is that of microscale v macroscale. I haven't heard about this diamond entanglement - could you give a link please?

How do you find the arrival point.. how indeed. It's possible that the energy problem I mentioned might actually help. You could perhaps define the two linked points as having related coordinates not just of space and time, but also of gravitational energy level. I must think more on't.
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#18 Tamyrlin1

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 11:29 AM

Here's one link to an article about the diamonds. You can do a google search of "entangled diamonds" and get plenty more. When i re-read the article it reminded me that it wasn't truly the diamonds that were entangled, it was the vibrational states of the diamonds that were entangled. Its a slight difference in terminology, but it does change the meaning. What they describe as "entanglement" of the diamonds is really just that they dont know which state the 2 diamonds are in. They "split" a photon so that it only interacts with one of the diamonds, and then they detect a "stokes photon" which is at a lower energy than the original. if they detect this, they know a phonon (a high frequency vibration within the atomic lattice) is present in one of the 2 diamonds. Because the path the photon traveled was unknown, until a measurement is made, both diamonds can be considered to be vibrating and not vibrating simultaneously. Overall the experiment was much less impressive than i remembered, but it's still a step forward.

You could perhaps define the two linked points as having related coordinates not just of space and time, but also of gravitational energy level. I must think more on't.

using space, time, and gravity is interesting. I've always connected gravity to time, but perhaps it could be distinct. Maybe black holes could be used somehow? They have an immense and unique, some would say infinite, gravity well which could be distinct enough to be used as an arrival point. If so, how would you connect with it?

My theory on black holes is that they are a window into the fourth dimension. If we were to artificially produce a black hole on earth, we could potentially have the ability to peer into the window, and maybe even STEP into it as well. Now, obviously as a human we wouldn't WANT to step into it, but, our machines certainly wouldn't mind. If we can build a machine, most likely a nano-machine, capable of entering a black hole, we could learn a lot about it's inner workings. After we know enough about what happens in a BH, we can build a different machine which is able to open a window from inside the BH back into the third dimension, but at a different point in space. This would obviously be an incredibly complex, sophisticated, and unimaginable process, but something i believe could be within the capabilities of a computer.

The counter-argument to this is that matter in a black hole is still matter. If that's the case, then the BH would no longer be a window into the fourth dimension. It would be highly dense matter, most likely rotating at luminal speeds, and occasionally small pieces would tunnel out of the well and into space, ultimately resulting in the evaporation of the BH. The reason i prefer to think of BH's as windows is due to the fact that time appears to slow down near a BH. Something that touches the outer edge (Schwarzchild radius) of one appears to spread itself across the surface as well as freeze in time. The closer an object gets to a black hole, the faster time appears to move outside of itself. Once the schwarzchild radius is reached, everything would appear to be happening all at once on the outside. That one fact is what convinces me that at this point, the object is IN the fourth dimension.

My grasp on astrophysics is rather weak compared to other areas of science, so i wont pretend that any of what i said is 100% accurate. However, as much as people are against the creation of BH's on earth, i think that it would be an incredible source of knowledge, provided it was controlled properly. Also, as a side note, i read something recently that suggested the earth is bombarded with mini black holes every day, but they're so small and moving so fast that they dont have enough time to accumulate much matter.

#19 Tamyrlin1

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 03:21 PM

Colbert Interviews

Here's some excerpts from 2 interviews Stephen Colbert had on one episode, both related to physics. The first one is related to the quantum brain, the second one to parallel universes. They're not necessarily evidence, but as usual, Stephen Colbert makes some funny remarks about the "absurdities" of our world today, and im sure some of you would enjoy them.

Edited by Tamyrlin1, 23 February 2012 - 03:22 PM.


#20 FarShainMael

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 03:34 AM

Thanks for the link on diamonds. As you say, it's a start!

Space, time, and gravitational energy: We're told that gravity is a sort of phantom, it's all just curved space; but I'm sure that's an oversimplification. There is energy involved, as all rocket scientists are only too well aware. It must come from somewhere; possibly from the curvature itself. Dunno.

Black holes and the 'fourth dimension': It is suggested that we are actually dealing with eleven dimensions. These include:

Space (3)
Time (1) (often called the 'fourth dimension)
Electromagnetic (2, pos and neg)
Colour (3, red/blue/green) (note: these aren't really colours, the just act in a similar way: combine all three and you get neutral, just as you get white light by combining red, blue, and green light, as in your monitor.)
Weak nuclear (2)

..which makes 11.

So rather than stepping into the 'fourth' dimension, what you may be doing is stepping into an environment in which these 11 are smoothed out into a continuous 'soup'. Matter is still present, but is itself 'smoothed out'.

What is certainly true is that you leave the familiar 4D space-time manifold (which, essentially, is what you're saying).

Use of black holes: Again, dear old Larry Niven has played with this idea. I do like SF for its ability to let people explore some truly outrageous ideas! Try:

The Hole Man
The Borderland of Sol

I'll have a look at Colbert later!
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