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Week 1: Moridin vs. Aviendha


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Poll: Week 1: Moridin vs. Aviendha (295 member(s) have cast votes)

Who will win?

  1. Moridin (210 votes [71.19%])

    Percentage of vote: 71.19%

  2. Aviendha (85 votes [28.81%])

    Percentage of vote: 28.81%

Vote

#1 Dwynwen

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 02:40 AM

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Write-up by: Luckers

The Contestants

Moridin
Age: Nearing four thousand years.
Race: human
Weapon: the One Power
Special: Age of Legends knowledge.

Aviendha
Age: around 20
Race: Human
Weapon: the One Power
Special: training as a Maiden of the Spear.

The Breakdown

Advantages
Moridin: Thousands of years experience.
Aviendha: a warrior spirit.

Disadvantages
Moridin: tendency to monologue.
Aviendha: likes silk dresses.

How we think it will go:

For days Aviendha had sat under the branches of Avendesora, feeling the peace it granted, yet not being touched by it. Too much lay upon her mind—visions of the past and the future, and the various dooms of her people. Somehow, she would save her people.

Something moved on the other side of the grand plaza which stood at the heart of Rhuidean, and she frowned. The other Wise Ones had given her privacy, sending gai’shain with bread and water twice a day, but the figure she spotted moving out from between two palaces was not wearing gai’shain white. He was tall, in clothes of black and red done in a wetlander cut, and she felt an instant chill at the sight of him-whether from instinct left from her time with the spear, or the simple presence of a wetlander in Rhuidean, she did not know. Rising, she embraced saidar through the angreal in her belt pouch—her sister’s parting gift.

She saw the moment he spotted her. The sudden relaxation—a predator which had caught sight of its prey, like a lion eyeing a sheep, and she the sheep. Her hand moved to her belt knife even as she drew more deeply through the angreal.

“Who are you? What are you doing here?”

“My name is Moridin,” he answered as he strolled almost casually toward her. His eyes briefly flicked to the columns, and then back to her, “though once I wore a different. Once, your kind named me the Betrayer of Hope.”

Her breath caught. One of the Shadowsouled. This man had been Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends, had betrayed all covenants even more thoroughly than the Aiel, and where they had felt the weight of their shame, he had gloried in it.

“Why are you here?” she asked; she would not let him touch columns. “What do you want?”

“Want, girl? I want you.”

Something struck at her connection to saidar, but with her angreal she stood too strong. For a moment she saw surprise upon his face, and then she was channelling; weaves sprang into being and lashed at him, but as fast as she wove, he was faster, her weaves parting like silk from Shara under a fine knife.

“I will take you, and use you, or I will kill you, and use your death.” Something touched her. She felt the agony of it like a storm raging through every limb of her body; saidar fled, and as if her bones had turned to butter, she fell. “One way or another, you shall drive your lover to his knees.”

For a time she was consumed by the pain. It went beyond anything she had ever felt; beyond even what Lanfear had wrought upon her. To even scream was lost to her. She wanted to give up. More than anything else in the world, she wanted to fade away into blackness. There was no shame in that, for it was the way of the dream—sooner or later the music faded, and the dance came to an end. She wanted that end now… but she could not take it.

The pain screamed for attention, and she gave it, wrapping the pain around herself like a flood from the stories of her childhood. More, she drew rage, for he was Shadowsouled, she Aiel, and debts lay between them that ran in a pure line back through the course of three thousand years. Till shade is gone. A dim, weak part of her murmured. Till water is gone.

She was aware of the man approaching her. Something seized her, a band wrapping her chest under the arms, and lifted, holding her in front of him. He was speaking, but most of what he said flowed past her; distantly she noted that black flecks were drifting across his eyes—from one to the other in a continuous stream. Into the Shadow with teeth bared. Some part of what he was saying began to sink in. “… that an Aiel would even try to fight me is so strange.”

Her hand began to twitch as she stared into those black flecked eyes, into the amusement and the disregard. Screaming defiance with the last breath. Waves of pain still ran through her, but she drank them in now, like a wetlander who had no care for the waste of water.

“But then, so many things about this Age are strange, even to one who has lived through the entirety of it.”

To spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the Last Day.

“The Aiel have become spear dancers? Well, so be it. You will be a spear, and I shall drive you into the Dragon’s heart.”

He smiled, and she drove her belt knife into his eye. Briefly, both of his eyes became portals into vast caverns of flame. The heat struck her like a blow, and she watched her belt knife melt, running silver and black scours down his face. Then the fires flickered and died. He fell like a tree falling, like a weight beyond his own drove him to the earth, and she felt his weaves dissolve, the band around her chest vanishing, leaving her swaying with exhaustion.

“To Shayol Ghul itself, Shadowrunner,” she muttered, and then collapsed.

Predicted Winner: Aviendha

You have until Saturday, January 21st at 9:00 p.m. Pacific Standard Time to vote.
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#2 Kael Pyralis

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 04:09 PM

While Moridin's disadvantage is hilariously true, I still think you're crazy.
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#3 Luckers

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 04:25 PM

Heh. :D

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#4 Crusader12

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 04:31 PM

Entertaining, but I don't find it likely. I love Aviendha and I really like the whole "spit in sightblinder's eye" routine you used here, but Moridin isn't that stupid. He would have wrapped her in air before getting that close. Frankly I don't think it would be much of a match-up.

#5 Owayn The Traveller

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 05:32 PM

Taim losing! Moridin losing! WTF! What's next Rand losing to Noel?
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#6 damandred

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 05:43 PM

As much as I want the good guy to win. PLEASE.... Moridin would chew her up and spit her out. He and Rand are in a league of their own.

#7 Master Ablar

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 05:50 PM

As much as I want the good guy to win. PLEASE.... Moridin would chew her up and spit her out. He and Rand are in a league of their own.


Which is probably why Rand isn't in this.

I think one of the reasons the Black Tower has become so popular in fandom isn't just that you get to dress in black and set fires with your mind, it's the sense of struggle the Asha'man have. To save the world, they have to embrace the part of themselves that's terrible and destructive. They risk madness to learn how to channel. It's a tremendous sacrifice they make.


#8 Datakim

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 06:04 PM

As much as I want the good guy to win. PLEASE.... Moridin would chew her up and spit her out. He and Rand are in a league of their own.


Yeah. AoL training and superiour skill, significantly superiour strength, a lot more experience in channeling combat due to the War of Power and the advantages of True Power and its unknown abilities that Aviendha would have no clue off.

Moridin would crush her so easily that saying she would win even jokingly is too silly. :)

#9 Senexx

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 06:42 PM

I agree Moridin would snap her like a twig.
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#10 Luckers

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 06:47 PM

I totally agree Moridin would chew Aviendha up in sheer skill--though not strength, not with Aviendha's angreal, which Elayne states would allow her to channel twice as much as Nynaeve. But as a Third Ager and an Aiel, Moridin would disregard Aviendha. Comprable fights would be Merean and Moiraine in New Spring, or Rand and Ishamael in EotW or tGH.

Aviendha would never give up, never surrender. No joke, Aviendha for the win. :D

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#11 Datakim

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 08:22 PM

I totally agree Moridin would chew Aviendha up in sheer skill--though not strength, not with Aviendha's angreal, which Elayne states would allow her to channel twice as much as Nynaeve. But as a Third Ager and an Aiel, Moridin would disregard Aviendha. Comprable fights would be Merean and Moiraine in New Spring, or Rand and Ishamael in EotW or tGH.

Aviendha would never give up, never surrender. No joke, Aviendha for the win. :D


Not so sure of that. Not only is Moridin a lot more carefull than Ishamael (dying can probably do that for you), but he has also acknowledged that third age channelers can do things that are unknown to him (warder bonds, unweaving, using a weather ter'angreal in a link to do something he believed impossible, etc). He would be confident in his victory to be sure, but after dying to Rand and being repeatedly surprised by third agers, I suspect he would not be overconfident. There is also the fact that Aviendha is a nobody to him, so he would not do his big monologues about how the Dark One is right (he is saving those for Rand), but just take her down quickly. :)

Oh, and I suspect that even with her angreal, Moridin is still stronger (though maybe not by much). Is he not supposed to be as strong as LTT was and basically a strength powerhouse? Aviendha was never that strong compared to the really powerfull channelers (Nynaeve, Rand, etc). Even 2x Nynaeve would probably not match Moridin.

Edited by Datakim, 15 January 2012 - 08:23 PM.


#12 Luckers

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 09:07 PM

Oh, and I suspect that even with her angreal, Moridin is still stronger (though maybe not by much). Is he not supposed to be as strong as LTT was and basically a strength powerhouse? Aviendha was never that strong compared to the really powerfull channelers (Nynaeve, Rand, etc). Even 2x Nynaeve would probably not match Moridin.


No, a 2x Nynaeve would match Moridin or Rand either one, and likely exceed them by a considerable amount. RJ stated that the female strength was on a scale of 21 levels, and that the male top strength (i.e. LTT/Ishy/Moridin/Rand) was 'a couple of levels higher' than the female top strength (i.e. Lanfear old).

Linda at the Thirteenth Depository places Nynaeve at 18. She backs this with a very great deal of research: http://13depository....th-ranking.html and certainly it fits with Brandon's comments that only six women currently stand stronger than Nynaeve (for instance Nynaeve is stronger than Semirhage).

Thus, if you buy Linda's placement, a 2x Nynaeve would be somewhere around a 36. From there even if you blur RJ's comment about the male top strength being 'a couple of levels' higher than the female as far as you can take it, or drop Nynaeve further and further down the strength hierarchy (which again, goes against the evidence), a 2x Nynaeve (Aviendha with angreal) still stands above Moridin or Rand.

So yeah, purely in terms of strength in the Power there is no question of Aviendha with an angreal being weaker than Moridin. All that remains is just how much stronger than Moridin she is.

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#13 W_A

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 10:47 PM

You're forgetting that the levels are very specifically not linear. They're just the general grouping of power. I think that once you get into the higher ranges the differences would be much bigger than in the lower ranges, like each level being a multiple of the previous instead of added to it. You can easily see this in comparing two clearly established measurements of strength, how much channelers can lift. Siuan (lvl 12) is said to have been able to lift three times her weight or something like that. Morgase struggles to lift up a handkerchief. Now, either the handkerchief weighed about 30 pounds, or a level 1 is much less than 1/12 as strong as a level 12.

If we assume that Moridin is 6-7 levels higher than Nynaeve, according to a model where higher levels have higher weight, the strengths would probably come out about equal. It would be difficult to tell, but I'd say that we could assume strength to be a null factor in this battle, in which case I'd give Moridin's millenia of knowledge thhe edge over Aviendha's training.

(Also, why in the world would you have Avi being prepared for this fight that she didn't expect but not have Moridin bring in a dozen sa'angreal? I know it has to be balanced, but if you wanted that, it would have made more sense to have Avi ambush Moridin.)

#14 Suttree

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 11:46 PM

(Also, why in the world would you have Avi being prepared for this fight that she didn't expect but not have Moridin bring in a dozen sa'angreal? I know it has to be balanced, but if you wanted that, it would have made more sense to have Avi ambush Moridin.)


How was she prepared for the fight? Because she had the angreal and belt knife that she always carries?

Edited by Suttree, 15 January 2012 - 11:46 PM.

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#15 Luckers

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 12:08 AM

You're forgetting that the levels are very specifically not linear. They're just the general grouping of power. I think that once you get into the higher ranges the differences would be much bigger than in the lower ranges, like each level being a multiple of the previous instead of added to it. You can easily see this in comparing two clearly established measurements of strength, how much channelers can lift. Siuan (lvl 12) is said to have been able to lift three times her weight or something like that. Morgase struggles to lift up a handkerchief. Now, either the handkerchief weighed about 30 pounds, or a level 1 is much less than 1/12 as strong as a level 12.


Actually Morgase could easily lift the handkerchief provided she could touch saidar. It was the touching saidar that she struggled with--when she had it, the handkerchief went taut, when she lost it, it fell. The weight was no issue.

From there I've seen no evidence that strength is staggered between the levels--indeed, when I asked Maria if the bell curve of strength fell in an even distribution, she said yes. Of course there are other situations where strength effects function--as with lifting--like the weavings of gateways, but we know for a fact that in these incidences the strength is not directly proportional to the effect--specifically, yes strength will decide the size of the gateway, but the size is not directly proportional to the strength used to weave it. So, Rand as the strongest male channeler makes the largest gateways--four feet by four feet--but it does not take him all of his strength to weave a gateway of that size. Indeed, during the attack on Algarin's manor he is doing a great many things, yet Logain states clearly that his gateways--though not formed with his full strength--are full sized. By the same note, a gateway woven by a cross-gender link is larger than a gateway woven at the same strength by a man or a woman or a circle of women.

This clearly shows that there is a different relationship between strength and function than the directly proportional one that you are inferring. Another example is the division of flows--again, an ability decided in some way by the channelers strength, yet as shown by Egwene under forkroot, not a result of direct strength correlation.

The two are inter-related, but not cause and effect. As such disproportionate differences between what the strength levels can achieve is not indicative of there being disproportionate increases in strength between the levels.

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#16 Nightstrike

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 03:51 AM

AviendhaElayne + Egwene were like kittens when they confronted Rand. Rand is stronger than Nynaeve. Nynaeve is "a bonfire next to candles" compared to Aviendha. Moridin is about Rand's strength. Moridin should defeat Aviendha easily, unless he's weakened by some other means (some TP side-effect?) or taken by surprise. The element of surprise is a possibility, but I wouldn't count on it. Also, I think the match is supposed to be on equal terms. Moridin can't use angreal, but he has the True Power instead.

So my vote is Moridin. At least the Moridin we knew from the first, say, 11 books. Don't know exactly how corrupted/damaged he will be by the end of the series.

Edited by Nightstrike, 16 January 2012 - 11:09 AM.


#17 Elusive Athena

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 04:07 AM

I love your write-up, but sadly Aviendha would have no chance. But your write-up is beautiful. Really beautiful.

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#18 ArborCantor

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 04:45 AM

Luckers, both of your write-ups have been beautiful, and you really convinced me that Cads could take Lanfear... But there is no way that Moridin could lose to Avi in this scenario. He would have wrapped her in air before approaching her. Thanks for putting this on though, it's a lot of fun.

#19 Luckers

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 04:48 AM

Cheers, I'm glad you're all enjoying them (and don't let my stridancy sway you from your votes. It's a fight after all. :D)

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#20 Tyzack

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 04:48 AM

Avi for the win...she'd find a way.

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