53 replies to this topic

[b3arz3rg3r]

 Suttree, on 08 January 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

 b3arz3rg3r, on 08 January 2012 - 01:31 PM, said:

Are you talking about the Last Battle? Because from what I remember the DO did not take part in that encounter at the end of TEOTW. In fact I believe so far not once has the DO gotten directly involved in a confrontation with the forces of the Light. He has always fought indirectly through proxies or the weather or even his taint on saidin.

Im talking about him being actively involved with the little things, you know like changing the seasons, unraveling the pattern, Shadar Haran etc...those are him taking an active part. He actively exerts his will on the weather to change it, he actively inhabits SH as his shadow avatar. He has taking as active as a part as possible giving the restrictions of his prison.

But he hasn't taken part in any battle against Rand so far, or has he? In books 1 to 3 it was always Ishy, then there were a couple of bubbles of evil over the next books and the other Forsaken. And that was the point, wasn't it? The voice only says that it will not take part in the upcoming confrontation, not that it won't do anything in the future.

Edited by b3arz3rg3r, 08 January 2012 - 02:03 PM.

[Orderofolde]

There's just one small problem with the RJ quote as to the Creator making a perfect world.  It would be insignificant except for the fact that there's the DO, who over time gets locked away and then surfaces to touch and taint this perfect creation, or else the Creator or the Pattern would not spin out the Dragon to bring about the "balance" for lack of a better term.  Fandom has picked up on a few points over time as to things looking to be heading one way and without quotes from RJ we'd have the majority of people thinking in other directions.  I'm too tired to recall names, it was something like Taim sounding a lot like Ishy or Demandred and all the small indicators of terminology, sigil, clothing and colors, etc.  

Some other things such as POV's from Graendal wondering about Asmodean after the fact she was supposed to have killed him, and nothing in the notes as to how this was to have happened, but RJ giving us the speech about it being intuitively obvious as to the who dunnit, and about the HOW and the WHERE he died being factors preventing his resurrection by the DO.  Granted Graendal fit as she hit up Sammeal's place in Illian to rifle through his collection of Ter'angreal and old things of yesteryear that followed later in the story line, but quotes should be taken with a grain of salt.  If someone guesses the ending or comes close to it halfway through one of my stories, bet your last buck I'll dazzle and befuddle their minds until they are stuck going in circles and second-guessing themselves.  As to the voice, it is intuitively obvious to the majority that it is the Creator.  LTT we know about, but have no idea he'll play any further part aside from some background.  The DO?  It's the only other voice in all caps we know of, but the words don't drive him to his knees in that weird pain/rapture the Forsaken get from it each time they venture one by one to Shayol Ghul, too afraid to all get locked away again.  There is also the small part of his soul not being tied to the DO either so probably it would be nothing but pain and agony and suffering.  I just can't wait to RAFO, then anything we've been RAFO'd on that isn't answered we will be directing Brandon and Harriet's way for our curiosity no doubt.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I think Suttree and a few others have this one right.  The DO would not leave the question open.  There are no choices with the DO.  It's its way or eternal damnation and torture for your soul.

Also, there's more than one Chosen in the DO's camp.  The VOICE in The Eye of the World SPEAKS of the ONE CHOSEN.  The Creator only has one Champion.  One Dragon.

It was Jordan, establishing early, and without equivocation, that there would be no Crreator riding over the horizon on a White Charger ala Gandalf so save mankind's worthless kiesters.  Mankind made this mess so one man was gonna hafta clean it up for them.  IF he was willing.

Rand was.  


< I'm not sure that if he'd known it was gonna take 20 years and 14 volumes Rand would have accepted, though >

Edited by Bob T Dwarf, 09 January 2012 - 01:02 PM.

[b3arz3rg3r]

 Bob T Dwarf, on 09 January 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

I think Suttree and a few others have this one right.  The DO would not leave the question open.  There are no choices with the DO.  It's its way or eternal damnation and torture for your soul.

Also, there's more than one Chosen in the DO's camp.  The VOICE in The Eye of the World SPEAKS of the ONE CHOSEN.  The Creator only has one Champion.  One Dragon.

It was Jordan, establishing early, and without equivocation, that there would be no Crreator riding over the horizon on a White Charger ala Gandalf so save mankind's worthless kiesters.  Mankind made this mess so one man was gonna hafta clean it up for them.  IF he was willing.

Rand was.  


< I'm not sure that if he'd known it was gonna take 20 years and 14 volumes Rand would have accepted, though >

The meeting of Ishy and Rand in TEOTW wasn't required, so there's nothing really wrong with the DO saying that it's up to Ishy and the DO has only one Nae'blis, that's his chosen mortal beyond everyone else.

There would be no need for Jordan to establish the noninvolvement of the Creator if he, you know, let him remain uninvolved. Having the Creator appear just to say that he isn't going to do anything is completely redundant and bad writing to boot. Without it no one would ever even expect the Creator to do anything.


I'm surprised there isn't a word of god on this one. Someone must have asked RJ who that voice was. Did he RAFO it? It really doesn't seem to be something worth hiding forever.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 b3arz3rg3r, on 09 January 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

 Bob T Dwarf, on 09 January 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

I think Suttree and a few others have this one right.  The DO would not leave the question open.  There are no choices with the DO.  It's its way or eternal damnation and torture for your soul.

Also, there's more than one Chosen in the DO's camp.  The VOICE in The Eye of the World SPEAKS of the ONE CHOSEN.  The Creator only has one Champion.  One Dragon.

It was Jordan, establishing early, and without equivocation, that there would be no Crreator riding over the horizon on a White Charger ala Gandalf so save mankind's worthless kiesters.  Mankind made this mess so one man was gonna hafta clean it up for them.  IF he was willing.

Rand was.  


< I'm not sure that if he'd known it was gonna take 20 years and 14 volumes Rand would have accepted, though >

The meeting of Ishy and Rand in TEOTW wasn't required, so there's nothing really wrong with the DO saying that it's up to Ishy and the DO has only one Nae'blis, that's his chosen mortal beyond everyone else.

There would be no need for Jordan to establish the noninvolvement of the Creator if he, you know, let him remain uninvolved. Having the Creator appear just to say that he isn't going to do anything is completely redundant and bad writing to boot. Without it no one would ever even expect the Creator to do anything.


I'm surprised there isn't a word of god on this one. Someone must have asked RJ who that voice was. Did he RAFO it? It really doesn't seem to be something worth hiding forever.

At the time that The Eye of the World was written, the battle between Rand and Ba'alzamon was very much required.  He'd pitched a 3 book deal.  He'd been given a contract for 6 books ( since Tom Dougherty knew how verbose he could be ) and he had 13 Forsaken to dispose of.  Getting rid of just one of them was gonna leave him with 12 to get rid of in 5 more books.

That was when Jordan began to go crazy.  Not only did he bring Ba'alzamon back - twice - before finally killing him for good.  He went Green and recycled him as Moridin.

Canny man James Rigney.  He'd found himself a patsy at TOR and he bled him for every word and every cent he possibly could.  AND, left us with a very messy and overblown series as a result.


EDIT:  Oops, or oosp as my sister would say.  Jordan actually killed off three Forsaken in The Eye of the World.  But then the silly sod recycled all of them so it didn't count anyway.

Edited by Bob T Dwarf, 09 January 2012 - 08:27 PM.

[Cybertrolloc]

You know, that makes Moridin's musings over the Shara (spelling? PoD prologue) board weird. Granted he's insane and not a reliable narrator :)

Voice in EotW has been RAFO by BS, pretty sure RJ has.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 Cybertrolloc, on 09 January 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

You know, that makes Moridin's musings over the Shara (spelling? PoD prologue) board weird. Granted he's insane and not a reliable narrator :)

Voice in EotW has been RAFO by BS, pretty sure RJ has.

Yeah.  Sometimes I think Jordan RAFOed things because he couldn't believe the question.  He thought he'd made the answer plain in what he'd already written.  If the person was only skimming the books, then he/she didn't deserve to know the answer anyway.

[Drewcifer]

 Bob T Dwarf, on 09 January 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

 b3arz3rg3r, on 09 January 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

 Bob T Dwarf, on 09 January 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

I think Suttree and a few others have this one right.  The DO would not leave the question open.  There are no choices with the DO.  It's its way or eternal damnation and torture for your soul.

Also, there's more than one Chosen in the DO's camp.  The VOICE in The Eye of the World SPEAKS of the ONE CHOSEN.  The Creator only has one Champion.  One Dragon.

It was Jordan, establishing early, and without equivocation, that there would be no Crreator riding over the horizon on a White Charger ala Gandalf so save mankind's worthless kiesters.  Mankind made this mess so one man was gonna hafta clean it up for them.  IF he was willing.

Rand was.  


< I'm not sure that if he'd known it was gonna take 20 years and 14 volumes Rand would have accepted, though >

The meeting of Ishy and Rand in TEOTW wasn't required, so there's nothing really wrong with the DO saying that it's up to Ishy and the DO has only one Nae'blis, that's his chosen mortal beyond everyone else.

There would be no need for Jordan to establish the noninvolvement of the Creator if he, you know, let him remain uninvolved. Having the Creator appear just to say that he isn't going to do anything is completely redundant and bad writing to boot. Without it no one would ever even expect the Creator to do anything.


I'm surprised there isn't a word of god on this one. Someone must have asked RJ who that voice was. Did he RAFO it? It really doesn't seem to be something worth hiding forever.

Canny man James Rigney.  He'd found himself a patsy at TOR and he bled him for every word and every cent he possibly could.  AND, left us with a very messy and overblown series as a result.

That's a little harsh.  I don't find the series messy or overblown.

[sgwin]

I kind of like the idea of the voice being the Dark One speaking to and about Rand. It would kind of be a foreshadowing of Veins of Gold in TGS, I guess, when Rand almost unmakes the Pattern. I presume that the Dragon/Chosen One/Champion of the Light has to voluntarily destroy the Pattern for the Dark One to really win, mostly from this RJ quote and Veins of Gold:

Quote

RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

So in tEotW, Rand yells into the air at Ba'alzamon, who Rand thinks is the DO, and says, "This has to end!" The DO, knowing that only Rand has the ability to completely end the Pattern and give him total victory, is worried that Rand is about to assault Shayol Ghul or use too much of the Power or do something else crazy and get himself killed before he has a chance to get him to unravel the Pattern. Hence, the DO tries to stop Rand from doing that just yet.

Quote

IT IS NOT HERE.

"IT" being Tarmon Gai'don, I guess. Or just the "end." He's just trying to keep Rand alive by telling him the fight is not "HERE," in time or place. Translation: "WHOA! NOT NOW! PLEASE DON'T DO SOMETHING STUPID AND GET YOURSELF KILLED BEFORE I CAN CONVINCE YOU TO DO WHAT I NEED YOU TO DO. THAT WOULD RUIN EVERYTHING AND MAKE ME WAIT ANOTHER SEVERAL MILLENNIA FOR YOU TO COME AROUND AGAIN."

Quote

I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL.

This would mean that only Rand, the "Chosen One," has the ability to unmake the Pattern and give the DO the final victory. From the DO's perspective, this is "WHAT MUST BE DONE." "IF HE WILL," of course. The Dragon has to do it of his own volition. I infer from RJ's quote that, though the Dragon has gone over to the Shadow on occasion, he's never been a true believer like Moridin and unmade the Pattern.

I think it's more likely to be an EotWism, but I do kind of like this idea.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 sgwin, on 30 January 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

I kind of like the idea of the voice being the Dark One speaking to and about Rand. It would kind of be a foreshadowing of Veins of Gold in TGS, I guess, when Rand almost unmakes the Pattern. I presume that the Dragon/Chosen One/Champion of the Light has to voluntarily destroy the Pattern for the Dark One to really win, mostly from this RJ quote and Veins of Gold:

Quote

RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

So in tEotW, Rand yells into the air at Ba'alzamon, who Rand thinks is the DO, and says, "This has to end!" The DO, knowing that only Rand has the ability to completely end the Pattern and give him total victory, is worried that Rand is about to assault Shayol Ghul or use too much of the Power or do something else crazy and get himself killed before he has a chance to get him to unravel the Pattern. Hence, the DO tries to stop Rand from doing that just yet.

Quote

IT IS NOT HERE.

"IT" being Tarmon Gai'don, I guess. Or just the "end." He's just trying to keep Rand alive by telling him the fight is not "HERE," in time or place. Translation: "WHOA! NOT NOW! PLEASE DON'T DO SOMETHING STUPID AND GET YOURSELF KILLED BEFORE I CAN CONVINCE YOU TO DO WHAT I NEED YOU TO DO. THAT WOULD RUIN EVERYTHING AND MAKE ME WAIT ANOTHER SEVERAL MILLENNIA FOR YOU TO COME AROUND AGAIN."

Quote

I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL.

This would mean that only Rand, the "Chosen One," has the ability to unmake the Pattern and give the DO the final victory. From the DO's perspective, this is "WHAT MUST BE DONE." "IF HE WILL," of course. The Dragon has to do it of his own volition. I infer from RJ's quote that, though the Dragon has gone over to the Shadow on occasion, he's never been a true believer like Moridin and unmade the Pattern.

I think it's more likely to be an EotWism, but I do kind of like this idea.

Possible, but unlikely.  At this point in the series, none of the cuendillar Focus Points have been found yet.  There is no indication ( to the Light ) that any of the Seals themselves have failed until Aginor and Balthamel show up at the Eye.  It is rather unlikely that enough had yet failed that the DO could manifest a VOICE at a place as far from Shayol Ghul as Tarwin's Gap.

Things are just beginning.  The Dark is just starting to make itself known to the outside world.  The DO does not yet possess sufficient strength to touch the outside world so directly.  Or reach so far from the one place it can manifest at all.

Edited by Bob T Dwarf, 31 January 2012 - 08:24 AM.

[BrainFireBob]

 Bob T Dwarf, on 31 January 2012 - 08:23 AM, said:

 sgwin, on 30 January 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

I kind of like the idea of the voice being the Dark One speaking to and about Rand. It would kind of be a foreshadowing of Veins of Gold in TGS, I guess, when Rand almost unmakes the Pattern. I presume that the Dragon/Chosen One/Champion of the Light has to voluntarily destroy the Pattern for the Dark One to really win, mostly from this RJ quote and Veins of Gold:

Quote

RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

So in tEotW, Rand yells into the air at Ba'alzamon, who Rand thinks is the DO, and says, "This has to end!" The DO, knowing that only Rand has the ability to completely end the Pattern and give him total victory, is worried that Rand is about to assault Shayol Ghul or use too much of the Power or do something else crazy and get himself killed before he has a chance to get him to unravel the Pattern. Hence, the DO tries to stop Rand from doing that just yet.

Quote

IT IS NOT HERE.

"IT" being Tarmon Gai'don, I guess. Or just the "end." He's just trying to keep Rand alive by telling him the fight is not "HERE," in time or place. Translation: "WHOA! NOT NOW! PLEASE DON'T DO SOMETHING STUPID AND GET YOURSELF KILLED BEFORE I CAN CONVINCE YOU TO DO WHAT I NEED YOU TO DO. THAT WOULD RUIN EVERYTHING AND MAKE ME WAIT ANOTHER SEVERAL MILLENNIA FOR YOU TO COME AROUND AGAIN."

Quote

I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL.

This would mean that only Rand, the "Chosen One," has the ability to unmake the Pattern and give the DO the final victory. From the DO's perspective, this is "WHAT MUST BE DONE." "IF HE WILL," of course. The Dragon has to do it of his own volition. I infer from RJ's quote that, though the Dragon has gone over to the Shadow on occasion, he's never been a true believer like Moridin and unmade the Pattern.

I think it's more likely to be an EotWism, but I do kind of like this idea.

Possible, but unlikely.  At this point in the series, none of the cuendillar Focus Points have been found yet.  There is no indication ( to the Light ) that any of the Seals themselves have failed until Aginor and Balthamel show up at the Eye.  It is rather unlikely that enough had yet failed that the DO could manifest a VOICE at a place as far from Shayol Ghul as Tarwin's Gap.

Things are just beginning.  The Dark is just starting to make itself known to the outside world.  The DO does not yet possess sufficient strength to touch the outside world so directly.  Or reach so far from the one place it can manifest at all.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The DO may not be limited to speaking at SG, it might a) Require a stupid amount of his power to do it, so he doesn't elect to, or b) the Dragon is a special soul, and was chugging Power-juice at the time. Possibly the DO cannot find threads to communicate with, unless at SG, until Rand starts screaming at him. Rand's soul being neon green in the black cotton of the Pattern, he may be relatively easy to talk to.

Also, we do see the DO act outside SG in the series prior to the seals breaking. Naming the DO brings misfortune. That's not reality, that's him.

[Dreggs Morlock]

For those of you who are really enjoying this turn of conversation, it was also re-hashed here:
http://www.dragonmou...i/page__st__440

This is in the "Nakomi" thread, and THAT discussion was well reasoned out as well.  In particular, if the Creator did speak those words, could the Creator also have other "discussions" with mortals?  It's an interesting read...

[bombadillio]

It is really good food for thought. After re-reading the series about 11+ times, I never actually caught this one part in TEOTW.

in questions regarding the DO, aren't the only times he speaks directly at Shayul Ghul(forgive spelling). Following this one train of the thought we could say it was not the DO. Then going further playing devils advocate we could say the only reason why people are being driven to the ground when spoken to, is due to the close proximity to the DO.

For the creator, maybe the creator is doing what he can at that exact moment, since he wants Rand to win, and knows that Rand is not ready.

[Edynol]

I think RJ described the caps in that scene as a slip of the Caps Lock button that somehow went unnoticed whe the book went to print.  lol.  Or something like that.

Also, a bit off subject, but when it come to the power, touching the source and channeling are two different things.  In the earlier parts of book one, he was just touching the source not channeling it.  It's channeling that involves the flame and the void and the sickness and such.