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Why has Rand angered Egwene on purpose?


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#81 Master Ablar

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 07:41 AM


And so, once the seals are destroyed and the patch taken off, which allows the pattern to heal itself, who, or what, forces the DO back through the bore long enough for the pattern to heal? And does the pattern heal itself so quickly, or would someone need to help it?


I think it's the land that needs to heal, not the Pattern. The Pattern is simply a byproduct of the lives that exist upon that land. For that healing to take place, the wound needs to be cleaned (removing the seals and patch), the cancer (DO) removed, and the infection (Blight) cleansed. With the DO gone, trees will flower and the land flourish. Of course, the Dark One's may love the idea of leaving his hole in the ground, but where that leaves him after being removed from the hole is in question. Does it (DO) discover that freedom simply removes it from the Pattern, is it a creature to be destroyed, or is it dispersed into the bodies of its devotees, to dance in their skins? Perhaps all of the above?


Considering that balance and endless repetition of time are such huge themes in WoT, I find it doubtfull that the DO will ever be gone.

I think one of the reasons the Black Tower has become so popular in fandom isn't just that you get to dress in black and set fires with your mind, it's the sense of struggle the Asha'man have. To save the world, they have to embrace the part of themselves that's terrible and destructive. They risk madness to learn how to channel. It's a tremendous sacrifice they make.


#82 Eht Slat Meit

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 08:01 AM

Considering that balance and endless repetition of time are such huge themes in WoT, I find it doubtfull that the DO will ever be gone.


I would consider the Shadow an ongoing theme, not the Dark One itself. As such, it's not unreasonable to foresee a time when Shai'tan is replaced as representation of the Shadow by something just as dark and evil... like Fain. Who is to say that the Dark One, in an Age, Legend or Myth long past and forgotten, wasn't some lowly worm who was corrupted by a more ancient power of darkness and slowly gained enough power to threaten the world?

If this is The Last Battle, that suggests to me that the Dark One as well as the Dragon is to die.

#83 Suttree

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 08:54 AM

If this is The Last Battle, that suggests to me that the Dark One as well as the Dragon is to die.


But that's the thing it's the "Last Battle" for the characters, but there is nothing unique about this age.

Marcon Interview Memorial Weekend 2001- Sorilea reporting

Q: At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?
RJ: No . . . Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless.


Waves are the ultimate illusion. They come out of nowhere, instantaneously materialize, and just as quickly they break and vanish. Chasing after such fleeting mirages is a complete wast of time. That is what I choose to do with my life." - Miki Dora

 


 


#84 Elan Tedronai

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 12:23 PM

@eht slet meit

sorry mate. Was never my intention to ridicule you. Sometimes i am just too blunt with my words.


As to your theory well the flaw lies in 'the healing of the land'


It's not the land, or the blight that os the cause. You have to remember prior to the boring of the DO prison, the land was serene and beuatiful. It's when lanfear did what she did that you saw the damage being done. That is due to the DO's presence. He is the one corrupting the surrounding areas.

The hole in the DO is quite small but enough for his evil to seep through and cause the decay. To solve this issue it all goes back to shutting the breach. The breach is located through the pattern. The DO lies outside this pattern. As long as the DO is able to make his presence felt through the bore, there will be no healing of the pattern. Think of it as flesh wound. You have the skin which is the pattern. And a piece of metal which is nudged through it causing the wound. The metal is the dark one. For the skin to heal, the metal has to be removed. Then the skin will clot and heal and form a new skin over the old one.

Finally you cannot kill the DO. It's impossible. We are talking about an immortal being that was present at the time of creation. This is not some worm or padan fain wannabe. This is shaitan. His mere backlash tainted one half of the true source.


Besides the cyclical nature of the wheel of time itself guarantees his eternal life

#85 SuperFade

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 01:03 PM


If this is The Last Battle, that suggests to me that the Dark One as well as the Dragon is to die.


But that's the thing it's the "Last Battle" for the characters, but there is nothing unique about this age.

Marcon Interview Memorial Weekend 2001- Sorilea reporting

Q: At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?
RJ: No . . . Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless.


Wasn't Padan Fain stated to be unique to this turning and that there's never been anything like him before?

#86 Suttree

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 01:07 PM



If this is The Last Battle, that suggests to me that the Dark One as well as the Dragon is to die.


But that's the thing it's the "Last Battle" for the characters, but there is nothing unique about this age.

Marcon Interview Memorial Weekend 2001- Sorilea reporting

Q: At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?
RJ: No . . . Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless.


Wasn't Padan Fain stated to be unique to this turning and that there's never been anything like him before?


Sure but the same could have been said for Mordeth when he searched out the evils in the world to fight the shadow and morphed. We have word of God that nothing about this Age is different in regards to a "Last Battle" situation.
Waves are the ultimate illusion. They come out of nowhere, instantaneously materialize, and just as quickly they break and vanish. Chasing after such fleeting mirages is a complete wast of time. That is what I choose to do with my life." - Miki Dora

 


 


#87 mb

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 02:27 PM

Robert jordan practically gave it away in prologue of TEOFTW.

Which comment/thought/etc?
Matthew 28:19-20
I Kings 18:21
Romans 1:16
Philippians 4:6-7

#88 Elan Tedronai

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 03:03 PM

Robert jordan practically gave it away in prologue of TEOFTW.

Which comment/thought/etc?


when LTT realises that his arrogance cost him. That to fix the mess lanfear created, it needed a power greater than men. Laying a patch on the bore was never going to fix the issue permanently.

#89 mb

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 04:21 PM

Robert jordan practically gave it away in prologue of TEOFTW.

Which comment/thought/etc?

when LTT realises that his arrogance cost him. That to fix the mess lanfear created, it needed a power greater than men. Laying a patch on the bore was never going to fix the issue permanently.

Not sure of the exact part; could you quote it?
Matthew 28:19-20
I Kings 18:21
Romans 1:16
Philippians 4:6-7

#90 Eht Slat Meit

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 07:23 PM

@eht slet meit

sorry mate. Was never my intention to ridicule you. Sometimes i am just too blunt with my words.


As to your theory well the flaw lies in 'the healing of the land'


It's not the land, or the blight that os the cause. You have to remember prior to the boring of the DO prison, the land was serene and beuatiful. It's when lanfear did what she did that you saw the damage being done. That is due to the DO's presence. He is the one corrupting the surrounding areas.

The hole in the DO is quite small but enough for his evil to seep through and cause the decay. To solve this issue it all goes back to shutting the breach. The breach is located through the pattern. The DO lies outside this pattern. As long as the DO is able to make his presence felt through the bore, there will be no healing of the pattern. Think of it as flesh wound. You have the skin which is the pattern. And a piece of metal which is nudged through it causing the wound. The metal is the dark one. For the skin to heal, the metal has to be removed. Then the skin will clot and heal and form a new skin over the old one.

Finally you cannot kill the DO. It's impossible. We are talking about an immortal being that was present at the time of creation. This is not some worm or padan fain wannabe. This is shaitan. His mere backlash tainted one half of the true source.


Besides the cyclical nature of the wheel of time itself guarantees his eternal life


I'm not saying that the land is the cause, and in fact we're in agreement on a lot of that - Shaitan is the cause. The problem is that resealing the Bore with a "perfect" prison accomplishes nothing but a temporary respite. You certainly can't call it a Last Battle, because it will simply come again when It breaks free again. I mean you've pretty much just gone and used the same analogy I was using! That of a wound on the land, poisoned by the cancer within.

I'm not sure if you realize exactly what you are saying here... because it's like you're contradicting me, but not really. If the Dark One is the "metal" within the skin of the Pattern, and it has to be removed (we agree on this)... where does it go? Back inside the Pattern, sealed inside it like it was before? That's a stopgap, achieving nothing lasting. The question is, if you take It (DO) out and leave it out... which is the point of -my- theory, then what happens next? Is it cut off from the Pattern?

As for the DO being immortal, indestructible, present at the time of creation and all that, I'd like to see a Word of RJ source statement that says as much, because the DO's opinion and the fear-filled opinion of the masses don't count. Fantasy books present over and over again the trope of a near omnipotent power that by way of insanity, ego, or a thousand other reasons, thinks itself immortal and is believed to be by the people of the world. Then at the end of the story, dies at the hand of a hero, or to its Achilles Heel. In short, this sounds subjective, not objective. Source?

#91 Suttree

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 07:49 PM

The problem is that resealing the Bore with a "perfect" prison accomplishes nothing but a temporary respite. You certainly can't call it a Last Battle, because it will simply come again when It breaks free again.


But that's how this world works. To quote Herid Fel...


Someone had to make it sometime. For the first time, that is. Unless you think the Creator made the Dark One's Prison with a hole and patch to begin." His eyebrows waggled at the suggestion. "No, it was whole in the beginning, and I think it will be whole again when the Third Age comes once more. Hmmm. I wonder if they called it the Third Age." He hastily dipped a pen and scribbled a note in the margins of an open book. "Umph. No matter now. I'm not saying the Dragon Reborn will be the one to make it whole, not in this Age necessarily anyway, but it must be so before the Third Age comes again, and enough time passed since it was made whole - an Age, at least - that no one remembers the Dark One or his Prison. No one remembers.Um. I wonder..."


This combined with RJ's quote in my post above saying there is nothing different about this age shows there have been many "Last Battles".

As for the nature of the DO...

Compuserve Chat 26 June 1996

Martin Reznick: How was the Dark One created, i.e. is he a fallen angel, an inherent part of the universe, etc.?
RJ: I envision the Dark One as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the Creator carrying on the theme, the yin yang, light dark, necessity of balance theme that has run through the books . . . it's somewhat Manichean I know, but I think it works.


Edited by Suttree, 09 November 2011 - 08:17 PM.

Waves are the ultimate illusion. They come out of nowhere, instantaneously materialize, and just as quickly they break and vanish. Chasing after such fleeting mirages is a complete wast of time. That is what I choose to do with my life." - Miki Dora