Why has Rand angered Egwene on purpose?

[Randommer]

b3arz3rg3r is right. The Hall of the Tower is the ultimate example of the bad, slow part of bureaucracy and democracy combined - Ultimate slowness.

 

in doing what he did, he achieved his goal in about 15 minutes. Egwene makes sure all forces loyal to the light and maybe even a few who aren't will be at FoM. It looks like he doesn;t have to expect any trouble getting command back. practically, he's their King already. the only ones who he will have to convince at FoM are the Aes Sedai. Morraine might help a hand here - she has a reputation in 20 years that exceeds even that of Cadsuane's 300 years. Single-handidly killing a Forsaken is quite a rare deed among the AS.

Yes, practically, he is their king. And never in the history of the real world (that I know of) has an army turned up united to side with another force against their king, and followed that same king home again. Because that person is clearly no longer their king. I mean, maybe it won't happen that way for Rand, but that is the sort of risk he's running, and that's why Egwene expects this to work. So I really hope he had a good reason for doing it (and gathering everyone doesn't cut it when he could have done that himself), because otherwise it's just extremely unrealistic plot development.

 

I dunno. I sorta hope Rand's doing it for good and noble reasons, but I can't help but remember that the one thing which made Lanfear really wonder if Rand had LTT's memories was that extremely devious Asmodean plan he came up with. As someone said, Rand has decided to challenge Egwene publicly instead of privately, and he does intend to win. And it was very telling that, when he was listing off the positive influences in his life to Min, he mentioned literally everyone from Emond's Field except Egwene. As he said to Nynaeve, "She will stop me, if she can."

 

But then, setting himself against her seems a bit counterproductive at this point, and certainly not very zen. So I'm still confused.

[Sa'angRAND]

I after writing this I realized the Latra thing has already been discussed

 

 

The reason Rand ticked off Egwene:

I wonder if Egwene is Latra Posae Decume reborn and Rand either realizes this or realizes that Egwene will be as effective as she was and wants to bring her out of the tower in order to argue. He realizes he has no chance in her domain so he is pulling here out for the argument.

 

Rand has a plan to seal the bore (kind of) the same that he did before that Latra fought against.

 

On that point: I have been wondering since Callandor is flawed and needs a women to control the flows and Rand now has access to the true power and an “ebony” hand will hold the sword. I wonder if Callandor is actually also a True Power Sa’angreal that will allow Moraine to control Saidar/Saidin and allow Rand to intertwine the true power into the flows so that the TP is what touches the dark one and saidar and saidin actually form a seal over the TP holding the DO in.

 

I have a feeling the story will go something like this:

1) Min discovers nothing can touch the DO without getting tainted but has no recommendation on what to do

2) Rand has Nynaeve for power and Moraine to control the flows through Callandor

3) Rand accesses the TP while this is going on (might be able to control and use TP since not actively controlling OP flows) and using the TP sa’angreal (Callandor) places a seal over the bore and then Moraine places a seal over the TP temp seal so that nothing but the TP actually touches the DO and the bore is sealed.

 

Sadly though I think that Rand and Min need to die in this story, it has been written as a tragedy and I think that it should be one. All characters in the story have main groups that they hang out with other then Rand. For example: Elayne has Andor, Aviendha has the Aiel, Perrin the 2 rivers folk, Mat has his band and the Seanchan now, and the list continues. Only 2 characters don’t have a group and that is Rand and Min. Rand is in control but does not connect with anyone on a personal level other than Min and Min has NO ONE other than Rand. I think it would be fitting for them to die together with Min really being Ilyena reborn.

 

The “To live again” answer would be awesome if it actually was that he went in with the Heroes in the Horn of Valere and he could interact with the world by having Mat blow the horn. But I don’t see how Rand can live in the true sense after how his character has progressed – he is the definition of a tragic character.

[Suttree]

Rand has a plan to seal the bore (kind of) the same that he did before that Latra fought against.

 

Think you have good ideas about Callandor possibly.

 

To clarify a few things though he doesn't have a plan(he's hoping Min comes up with the answer) and isn't using LTT's which we know per RJ was flawed.

ToM

I cannot seal the Bore the way I tried last time. I'm missing something, something vital. Find it for me."

[Elan Tedronai]

LTT biggest mistake was to think humans could do a better job at remaking the prison than the creator.

 

That was the flaw in his plan.

 

The only thing that can seal the bore perfectly is the pattern itself. Not LTT/rand. The one power is useless in recreating a new prison.

 

 

AS to the original question,

 

well, Sanderson yet again demonstrated that he is a shit author. We all know that rand would face the amyrlin's anger. Unfortunately, mr sanderson didnt have any really good ideas on how to make this foretelling look justified.

 

 

So in the end he makes rand al thor look like a complete tosspot in his meeting with Egwene. Gosh why did RJ had to die?

 

 

It's funny. The great LTT the tamyrlin of the last age consulted with the female aes sedai back in the day and told them his plans and worked with the women.

 

 

And yet the current age dragon with less power and authority compared to the last age decides to tell the leader of the females to basically 'get lost' and walks out on her.

 

 

Again. Just shit writing to be honest. It basically means LTT 2.0 is far more arrogant and haughty. Basically contradicts that 'i was raised better this time' philosophy of zen rand

[Tyzack]

I after writing this I realized the Latra thing has already been discussed

 

 

The reason Rand ticked off Egwene:

I wonder if Egwene is Latra Posae Decume reborn and Rand either realizes this or realizes that Egwene will be as effective as she was and wants to bring her out of the tower in order to argue. He realizes he has no chance in her domain so he is pulling here out for the argument.

 

Rand has a plan to seal the bore (kind of) the same that he did before that Latra fought against.

 

On that point: I have been wondering since Callandor is flawed and needs a women to control the flows and Rand now has access to the true power and an “ebony” hand will hold the sword. I wonder if Callandor is actually also a True Power Sa’angreal that will allow Moraine to control Saidar/Saidin and allow Rand to intertwine the true power into the flows so that the TP is what touches the dark one and saidar and saidin actually form a seal over the TP holding the DO in.

 

I have a feeling the story will go something like this:

1) Min discovers nothing can touch the DO without getting tainted but has no recommendation on what to do

2) Rand has Nynaeve for power and Moraine to control the flows through Callandor

3) Rand accesses the TP while this is going on (might be able to control and use TP since not actively controlling OP flows) and using the TP sa’angreal (Callandor) places a seal over the bore and then Moraine places a seal over the TP temp seal so that nothing but the TP actually touches the DO and the bore is sealed.

 

Sadly though I think that Rand and Min need to die in this story, it has been written as a tragedy and I think that it should be one. All characters in the story have main groups that they hang out with other then Rand. For example: Elayne has Andor, Aviendha has the Aiel, Perrin the 2 rivers folk, Mat has his band and the Seanchan now, and the list continues. Only 2 characters don’t have a group and that is Rand and Min. Rand is in control but does not connect with anyone on a personal level other than Min and Min has NO ONE other than Rand. I think it would be fitting for them to die together with Min really being Ilyena reborn.

 

The “To live again” answer would be awesome if it actually was that he went in with the Heroes in the Horn of Valere and he could interact with the world by having Mat blow the horn. But I don’t see how Rand can live in the true sense after how his character has progressed – he is the definition of a tragic character.

 

That's as good a theory as I've heard.

 

However, as to the question of why Rand pissed of Eugene, I agree with the theory that he did it out of convience. Yes, technically, he "rules" most of the armies that she brought, but most of those countries (the nobles who rule them) have good reason to be suspicious of rand and/or not follow him. Having the Amrilyn as them instead gets around any anti-rand feelings, and gets all the armies in the same place, and allows rand to name his price, basically the "peace of the dragon."

 

The seanchan attack, announced in the end of ToM will happen very early the book...how that interacts with a pretty much empty tower (save Mat and friends getting the horn), will be interesting, but I have a feeling that Mat'll bring the seanchan back with him, under his quasi-command.

[MasterAblar]

LTT biggest mistake was to think humans could do a better job at remaking the prison than the creator.

 

That was the flaw in his plan.

 

 

With this, at least, I agree completely.

 

As someone said, Rand has decided to challenge Egwene publicly instead of privately, and he does intend to win.

 

Not really. He doesn't want to be in conflict with her at all. He asks Nyneave to try and convince Egwene not to oppose him, so I don't think he's trying to publicaly humiliate her or the Aes Sedai. Her opposition itself to him is not something he wants.

[Randommer]

 

As someone said, Rand has decided to challenge Egwene publicly instead of privately, and he does intend to win.

 

Not really. He doesn't want to be in conflict with her at all. He asks Nyneave to try and convince Egwene not to oppose him, so I don't think he's trying to publicaly humiliate her or the Aes Sedai. Her opposition itself to him is not something he wants.

But then, why does he refuse to explain himself when he knows it will anger her? It was just such a potentially devisive thing to do this close to the LB that I feel, in order to make sense at all, there must have been more to it than he's said. Though I agree that he can't possibly want the WT not on his page during the LB. So...he's gonna have to fix it anyway.

[Kahsm]

b3arz3rg3r is right. The Hall of the Tower is the ultimate example of the bad, slow part of bureaucracy and democracy combined - Ultimate slowness.

 

in doing what he did, he achieved his goal in about 15 minutes. Egwene makes sure all forces loyal to the light and maybe even a few who aren't will be at FoM. It looks like he doesn;t have to expect any trouble getting command back. practically, he's their King already. the only ones who he will have to convince at FoM are the Aes Sedai. Morraine might help a hand here - she has a reputation in 20 years that exceeds even that of Cadsuane's 300 years. Single-handidly killing a Forsaken is quite a rare deed among the AS.

 

Riiiight, because Egwene's track record has so far been to languish and let the hall talk themselves out? Give me a break. One of her most common criticisms is that she's TOO good at getting what she wants when she wants it. And you might say, "Well Rand doesn't know that!" But that's why my complaint, and one I've heard from a few other Egwene defenders, is that Rand seems to be pulling an "Aes Sedai" to get what he likely could have gotten much more easily had he just asked Egwene straight out and given his reasoning.

[baalsmistress]

Well, Rand *IS* an Aes Sedai

[b3arz3rg3r]

b3arz3rg3r is right. The Hall of the Tower is the ultimate example of the bad, slow part of bureaucracy and democracy combined - Ultimate slowness.

 

in doing what he did, he achieved his goal in about 15 minutes. Egwene makes sure all forces loyal to the light and maybe even a few who aren't will be at FoM. It looks like he doesn;t have to expect any trouble getting command back. practically, he's their King already. the only ones who he will have to convince at FoM are the Aes Sedai. Morraine might help a hand here - she has a reputation in 20 years that exceeds even that of Cadsuane's 300 years. Single-handidly killing a Forsaken is quite a rare deed among the AS.

 

Riiiight, because Egwene's track record has so far been to languish and let the hall talk themselves out? Give me a break. One of her most common criticisms is that she's TOO good at getting what she wants when she wants it. And you might say, "Well Rand doesn't know that!" But that's why my complaint, and one I've heard from a few other Egwene defenders, is that Rand seems to be pulling an "Aes Sedai" to get what he likely could have gotten much more easily had he just asked Egwene straight out and given his reasoning.

 

There's no way Egwene would have accepted his reasoning. Not unless he ta'veren twisted her. Egwene has not once accepted Rand's reasoning or any man's reasoning for that matter without lengthy discussions in her whole life, so why should she start now?

Rand didn't have the time for lengthy discussions with Aes Sedai. It is quite clear that he is running around on a tight schedule. Saving Arad Doman in a day, going to Maradon, recruiting the Borderlanders and who knows what else he's been doing. He's juggling many things at the same time, the WT just wasn't important enough to waste more time on.

[Suttree]

There's no way Egwene would have accepted his reasoning. Not unless he ta'veren twisted her. Egwene has not once accepted Rand's reasoning or any man's reasoning for that matter without lengthy discussions in her whole life, so why should she start now?

Rand didn't have the time for lengthy discussions with Aes Sedai. It is quite clear that he is running around on a tight schedule. Saving Arad Doman in a day, going to Maradon, recruiting the Borderlanders and who knows what else he's been doing. He's juggling many things at the same time, the WT just wasn't important enough to waste more time on.

 

Well this is a first...don't think I have ever seen even the most ardent Rand supporter use the fact that he is too busy to have a 20 min discussion as a reason Rand couldn't explain what he wants to do. Can't believe I am quoting Elan but as it's relevant...

 

You know what's funny in all this. All these leader gathering and opposition by the Aes sedai would have never materialised if rand did the simple thing.

 

Rand: Egwene, i am going to break the seals

Egwene: what no rand. you cant

Rand: look the seals are crumbling and if we are going to defear shaitan then we need to remake the prison again.

egwene: so?

Rand: so, in order to recreate the original creation, we need to get rid of the patch i laid 3,000 years ago and rebuild it from scratch.

Egwene: sounds good to me but we need to plan. What happens after you break the seals. what then?

Rand: *proceeds to tell his plan*

Egwene: I see.

 

That's how a mature battle leader does his things. Instead we get

 

Rand: Egwene i am going to break the seals

Egwene what no rand. you cant.

Rand: It's a risk we must all take. i have to do it. clear the rubble

Egwene: its dangerous action. we must plan.

Rand: lol alright you go ahead and plan. taa daa.

Egwene: what the...

 

As has been stated many times by people both pro and against AS, if Rand simply laid out his reasoning, explained the pieces of the plan he already has, and asked the greatest repository of knowledge in the world to help Min research how to seal the bore Egwene would not have opposed him.

[Eht Slat Meit]

As has been stated many times by people both pro and against AS, if Rand simply laid out his reasoning, explained the pieces of the plan he already has, and asked the greatest repository of knowledge in the world to help Min research how to seal the bore Egwene would not have opposed him.

 

I don't believe that his intent is to seal the Bore. He's going to break the seals and "clear the rubble", which is nothing close to the same. It might lay a foundation for that action, but I think his real intent, once he figures out the details, is not to Seal the Bore, nor destroy the Dark One, but to remove the Dark One and Heal the Blight. Sealing the Bore while retaining the Dark One would simply hold the poison in, prevent healing of an infected wound on the land, and ultimately perpetuate the cycle.

 

I'm advancing the theory elsewhere with a more detailed explanation, but the short form is this: Rand is not to be a Weapon, but a Healer.

[Suttree]

As has been stated many times by people both pro and against AS, if Rand simply laid out his reasoning, explained the pieces of the plan he already has, and asked the greatest repository of knowledge in the world to help Min research how to seal the bore Egwene would not have opposed him.

 

I don't believe that his intent is to seal the Bore. He's going to break the seals and "clear the rubble", which is nothing close to the same. It might lay a foundation for that action, but I think his real intent, once he figures out the details, is not to Seal the Bore, nor destroy the Dark One, but to remove the Dark One and Heal the Blight. Sealing the Bore while retaining the Dark One would simply hold the poison in, prevent healing of an infected wound on the land, and ultimately perpetuate the cycle.

 

I'm advancing the theory elsewhere with a more detailed explanation, but the short form is this: Rand is not to be a Weapon, but a Healer.

 

I always took this to mean...

 

ToM

You have to find out how. I cannot seal the Bore the way I tried last time. I'm missing something, something vital. Find it for me."

 

That he is, but I would be interested in seeing your theory.

[Eht Slat Meit]

That he is, but I would be interested in seeing your theory.

 

I believe the vital thing he's missing is that he cannot seal the Bore with the Dark One in it, because he is simply trapping the DO in the land he is one with... poisoning it and himself. Anyway, here's the full-blown theory. 'Twice-Dawning Day' refers to an alternate theory presented on TL. Gonna have to edit out some formatting, so hopefully this doesn't come out atrociously.

 

======================================================================

 

"I thought I was being forged into a sword," Rand said, eyes growing distant. "But I was wrong. I'm not a weapon. I never have been." ~ ToM, ch12

 

After reading 'The Twice-Dawning Day' and comments on it, I recalled this quote, and it occurred to me that what the Dragon really -is- will play the key role in determining his fate. When questioned on that, he is enigmatic, but after being pointed to the emphasis on the "One with the Land" prophecies, I think that the answer has been staring back at us; the quote so often cited is a fragment laden with meaning, but it is also part of a larger statement:

 

"There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land."

 

In essence, this statement is linking the health of the Dragon to the health of the land. It is not an assignment of blame bor fault, precisely, but of simple fact. The health of the Dragon reflects the health of the world, and vice versa. One mirrors the other. With the emergence of a greater Rand in the finale of TGS, a Rand that is not in conflict and hurting himself at a fundamental level, the world directly surrounding him begins to flourish.

 

Examine the world around Rand, the land itself. Certainly, it is infested with all manner of forsaken monstrosity, dark hearts and ne'erdowells, but these are people, not the land itself. They are not the Dragon.

 

There is a part of the world that can only be described as a wound upon the land. It festers with an evil presence sealed within, and upon it no good thing grows. Horrors spring forth from its maw, and it is described as a pit by those who dare to speak of it.

 

It is the Blight, and at its center lies Shayol Ghul and its Pit of Doom that we also know as the Bore.

 

"Mile by mile the corruption of the Blight became more apparent. Leaves covered the trees in ever greater profusion, but stained and spotted with yellow and black, with livid red streaks like blood poisoning. Every leaf and creeper seemed bloated, ready to burst at a touch." TEoTW, ch48

 

It is a wound upon the side of the world, inflicted by men, poisoned by the Shadow, and prevented from healing by the presence of the Dark One who is Sealed within.

 

So long as the DO is within the wound of the world, its darkness will remain represented within Rand's own wound.

 

"The wound given him by Ishamael throbbed in time with the taint, while the other, from Fain’s blade, beat counterpoint in time with the evil that had killed Aridhol." ~ WH, ch35

 

To Heal the world, Rand must Heal the Blight. The rubble must be cleared, the cancer of the DO removed. To accomplish this...

 

"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow."

 

The blood of the Dragon is the Light, that which dispels Shadow. This two-fold dawn is a metaphor for two new beginnings... a new day, specifically one in which the Dragon has gone, and another in which the world is remade anew without the poison of the DO. His passing will be mourned, but the Dragon's passing will also birth a new world.

 

Thus, I submit the theory that the Dragon will not act as a weapon against the Dark One, but as a Healer whose scalpel will remove that cancer and the poison it exudes.

[b3arz3rg3r]

There's no way Egwene would have accepted his reasoning. Not unless he ta'veren twisted her. Egwene has not once accepted Rand's reasoning or any man's reasoning for that matter without lengthy discussions in her whole life, so why should she start now?

Rand didn't have the time for lengthy discussions with Aes Sedai. It is quite clear that he is running around on a tight schedule. Saving Arad Doman in a day, going to Maradon, recruiting the Borderlanders and who knows what else he's been doing. He's juggling many things at the same time, the WT just wasn't important enough to waste more time on.

 

Well this is a first...don't think I have ever seen even the most ardent Rand supporter use the fact that he is too busy to have a 20 min discussion as a reason Rand couldn't explain what he wants to do. Can't believe I am quoting Elan but as it's relevant...

 

20minutes? You live in a fantasy world. It would have taken Rand days. Like Rand said he doesn't have all the answers yet. So he can't present a watertight plan Egwene can accept immediately. His plan is based on his previous life something Egwene wouldn't give any credence to and her ignorance of the DO's prison and her fear prevent her from accepting his reasoning. She wants a plan with no risk at all and she equivocates the broken seals with the immediate freedom of the dark one. So like I said unless he ta'veren twisted her he wouldn't have the time to waste on convincing the WT.

Especially since it really isn't necessary for him to convince the WT in the first place. Rand has absolutely no need for their support to deal with the DO. He has the seals and he has Nyneave's promise of her aid at SG and whether it's Moiraine or Lanfear he can get the second female channeler he needs as well. The only reason Rand even visited her is because there is more to be done than just seal the DO. Egwene and the WT will be very useful in dealing with the Shadowspawn and maximizing the amount of survivors.

[Kahsm]

There's no way Egwene would have accepted his reasoning. Not unless he ta'veren twisted her. Egwene has not once accepted Rand's reasoning or any man's reasoning for that matter without lengthy discussions in her whole life, so why should she start now?

Rand didn't have the time for lengthy discussions with Aes Sedai. It is quite clear that he is running around on a tight schedule. Saving Arad Doman in a day, going to Maradon, recruiting the Borderlanders and who knows what else he's been doing. He's juggling many things at the same time, the WT just wasn't important enough to waste more time on.

 

Well this is a first...don't think I have ever seen even the most ardent Rand supporter use the fact that he is too busy to have a 20 min discussion as a reason Rand couldn't explain what he wants to do. Can't believe I am quoting Elan but as it's relevant...

 

She wants a plan with no risk at all and she equivocates the broken seals with the immediate freedom of the dark one.

 

Especially since it really isn't necessary for him to convince the WT in the first place. Rand has absolutely no need for their support to deal with the DO.

 

Why do you think she needs a plan with no risk? I mean she got herself captured doing something commonly believed to be pretty stupidly risky...

 

And if Rand truly has no need of Aes Sedai, then it's odd that he'd say, "I'm going to need you, all of you," he continued. "I hope to the Light that this time, you will give me your support."

[MasterAblar]

There's no way Egwene would have accepted his reasoning. Not unless he ta'veren twisted her. Egwene has not once accepted Rand's reasoning or any man's reasoning for that matter without lengthy discussions in her whole life, so why should she start now?

Rand didn't have the time for lengthy discussions with Aes Sedai. It is quite clear that he is running around on a tight schedule. Saving Arad Doman in a day, going to Maradon, recruiting the Borderlanders and who knows what else he's been doing. He's juggling many things at the same time, the WT just wasn't important enough to waste more time on.

 

Well this is a first...don't think I have ever seen even the most ardent Rand supporter use the fact that he is too busy to have a 20 min discussion as a reason Rand couldn't explain what he wants to do. Can't believe I am quoting Elan but as it's relevant...

 

She wants a plan with no risk at all and she equivocates the broken seals with the immediate freedom of the dark one.

 

Especially since it really isn't necessary for him to convince the WT in the first place. Rand has absolutely no need for their support to deal with the DO.

 

Why do you think she needs a plan with no risk? I mean she got herself captured doing something commonly believed to be pretty stupidly risky...

 

 

Risky to her, not to the world. Breaking the seals however, risks letting the DO break free, or so she believes, and she herself says that's no good, in her meeting with Rand.

[Suttree]

20minutes? You live in a fantasy world. It would have taken Rand days.

 

The important thing to note here is Egwene has no doubt Rand can seal the DO. She just thinks he shouldn't have to break the seals and he has done nothing to change her mind. With that type of faith all he would have to do is explain his reasoning(clear the rubble), discuss his plan and request aid for Min in working out his course of action for him. Since she already believes in his ability that conversation would take the better part of an afternoon at the longest if he was upfront. Instead he chose to antagonize her, the why of it remains to be seen.

[MasterAblar]

20minutes? You live in a fantasy world. It would have taken Rand days.

 

The important thing to note here is Egwene has no doubt Rand can seal the DO. She just thinks he shouldn't have to break the seals and he has done nothing to change her mind. With that type of faith all he would have to do is explain his reasoning(clear the rubble), discuss his plan and request aid for Min in working out his course a action for him. Since she already believes in his ability that would take the better part of an afternoon at the longest if he was upfront. Instead he chose to antagonize her, the why of it remains to be seen.

 

It might just be a combination of a bunch of things, rather than a single reason. Perhaps he wasn't sure he could trust the Aes Sedai, wasn't sure he could trust Egwene, didn't know how long it would take to convince them trust him, and if he had enough time to do so. Perhaps they might try and interfere with his plans, and by that, I mean try and dictate how things should go. Perhaps he wants to teach them a lesson. Perhaps he thought there was no other way.

Maybe he needed a good reason for everyone to gather at the FoM, and opposing him, or at least questioning him, would be a good one.

 

On it's own no reason feels very satisfactory, but maybe he thought that overall things would be simpler, and would in the end come to the same conclusion, if he acted as he did, and set everything right at the FoM.

[FarShainMael]

That he is, but I would be interested in seeing your theory.

 

I believe the vital thing he's missing is that he cannot seal the Bore with the Dark One in it, because he is simply trapping the DO in the land he is one with... poisoning it and himself. Anyway, here's the full-blown theory. 'Twice-Dawning Day' refers to an alternate theory presented on TL. Gonna have to edit out some formatting, so hopefully this doesn't come out atrociously.

 

======================================================================

 

"I thought I was being forged into a sword," Rand said, eyes growing distant. "But I was wrong. I'm not a weapon. I never have been." ~ ToM, ch12

 

After reading 'The Twice-Dawning Day' and comments on it, I recalled this quote, and it occurred to me that what the Dragon really -is- will play the key role in determining his fate. When questioned on that, he is enigmatic, but after being pointed to the emphasis on the "One with the Land" prophecies, I think that the answer has been staring back at us; the quote so often cited is a fragment laden with meaning, but it is also part of a larger statement:

 

"There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land."

 

In essence, this statement is linking the health of the Dragon to the health of the land. It is not an assignment of blame bor fault, precisely, but of simple fact. The health of the Dragon reflects the health of the world, and vice versa. One mirrors the other. With the emergence of a greater Rand in the finale of TGS, a Rand that is not in conflict and hurting himself at a fundamental level, the world directly surrounding him begins to flourish.

 

Examine the world around Rand, the land itself. Certainly, it is infested with all manner of forsaken monstrosity, dark hearts and ne'erdowells, but these are people, not the land itself. They are not the Dragon.

 

There is a part of the world that can only be described as a wound upon the land. It festers with an evil presence sealed within, and upon it no good thing grows. Horrors spring forth from its maw, and it is described as a pit by those who dare to speak of it.

 

It is the Blight, and at its center lies Shayol Ghul and its Pit of Doom that we also know as the Bore.

 

"Mile by mile the corruption of the Blight became more apparent. Leaves covered the trees in ever greater profusion, but stained and spotted with yellow and black, with livid red streaks like blood poisoning. Every leaf and creeper seemed bloated, ready to burst at a touch." TEoTW, ch48

 

It is a wound upon the side of the world, inflicted by men, poisoned by the Shadow, and prevented from healing by the presence of the Dark One who is Sealed within.

 

So long as the DO is within the wound of the world, its darkness will remain represented within Rand's own wound.

 

"The wound given him by Ishamael throbbed in time with the taint, while the other, from Fain’s blade, beat counterpoint in time with the evil that had killed Aridhol." ~ WH, ch35

 

To Heal the world, Rand must Heal the Blight. The rubble must be cleared, the cancer of the DO removed. To accomplish this...

 

"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow."

 

The blood of the Dragon is the Light, that which dispels Shadow. This two-fold dawn is a metaphor for two new beginnings... a new day, specifically one in which the Dragon has gone, and another in which the world is remade anew without the poison of the DO. His passing will be mourned, but the Dragon's passing will also birth a new world.

 

Thus, I submit the theory that the Dragon will not act as a weapon against the Dark One, but as a Healer whose scalpel will remove that cancer and the poison it exudes.

 

Interesting!

[Elan Tedronai]

cracked up theory. It's actually much simpler than that.

 

 

The problem with the bore and the nature of the dark one's prison is so obvious. Robert jordan practically gave it away in prologue of TEOFTW.

 

 

I see we are still squablling over the egwene rand confrontation.

 

There is only two sides to this story.

 

Either rand knows what he's doing and by not telling egwene of his plans he is being rude and confrontational

 

or

 

 

 

he doesn't know what he is doing in which case he's a madman since you dont smash seals without knowing what to do next

 

 

 

pick your choice. It's that simple

[MasterAblar]

cracked up theory. It's actually much simpler than that.

 

 

The problem with the bore and the nature of the dark one's prison is so obvious. Robert jordan practically gave it away in prologue of TEOFTW.

 

Then, please, enlighten us.

 

I see we are still squablling over the egwene rand confrontation.

 

There is only two sides to this story.

 

Either rand knows what he's doing and by not telling egwene of his plans he is being rude and confrontational

 

or

 

 

 

he doesn't know what he is doing in which case he's a madman since you dont smash seals without knowing what to do next

 

 

 

pick your choice. It's that simple

 

I noticed that neither side has Rand in the right. Or Egwene in the wrong.

[Elan Tedronai]

ENlighten you?

 

Sit back and enjoy the educational ride. Okay just kidding. Anyways.

 

To understand the issue you have to go back to AOL. When Lanfear and co drilled through the bore, they accidently stumbled into the DO's prison. Described shayol ghul as the thinnest part of the pattern making it easily reachable to the DO prison.

 

 

Now you have a tiny little hole through which the dark one can stick his little pinky through. Cant do much with it but still given time he could make it bigger and bigger.

 

 

Now fast forward 100 years. And the bore is still open. Why? Why hasnt the hole closed? Anyways, The war of power comes through.

 

Two plans. We all know the story. LTT plans to put a patch on the hole. close of the DO from the rest of the world. He badly miscalculates. He uses the saidin to lay the seals on the bore. What sticking out through the bore? The dark one. Saidin meet shaitan. Shaitan meet saidin. Boom everyone goes mad. A few weeks later and a confrontation with ishy and LTT realises the mistake. Men cannot use the power or their own tools to patch up the bore. His arrogance has cost him

 

 

Now fast forward 3000 years later, the seals are crumbling. Why? because shaitan is heaving on it. The plaster is weak and its coming off. So what do you do this time differntly?

 

Well only one solution. Let the wound heal itself. Let the pattern close itself off and self heal. Only one problem with this. The dark one won't let it heal. He's sticking his little pinky through the hole.

 

so what to do? Their lies in the problem. Something has to push the great lord back through the bore long enough for the pattern to close itself. Once the DO is no longer interfering with the pattern, the pattern can then close off and voila we have anew prison predating lanfear and co hooliganism

[MasterAblar]

ENlighten you?

 

Sit back and enjoy the educational ride. Okay just kidding. Anyways.

 

To understand the issue you have to go back to AOL. When Lanfear and co drilled through the bore, they accidently stumbled into the DO's prison. Described shayol ghul as the thinnest part of the pattern making it easily reachable to the DO prison.

 

 

Now you have a tiny little hole through which the dark one can stick his little pinky through. Cant do much with it but still given time he could make it bigger and bigger.

 

 

Now fast forward 100 years. And the bore is still open. Why? Why hasnt the hole closed? Because the DO is keeping it open. He's stopping the pattern from closing itself off. The war of power comes through.

 

Two plans. We all know the story. LTT plans to put a patch on the hole. close of the DO from the rest of the world. He badly miscalculates. He uses the saidin to lay the seals on the bore. What sticking out through the bore? The dark one. Saidin meet shaitan. Shaitan meet saidin. Boom everyone goes mad. A few weeks later and a confrontation with ishy and LTT realises the mistake. Men cannot use the power or their own tools to patch up the bore. His arrogance has cost him

 

 

Now fast forward 3000 years later, the seals are crumbling. Why? because shaitan is heaving on it. The plaster is weak and its coming off. So what do you do this time differntly?

 

Well only one solution. Let the wound heal itself. Let the pattern close itself off and self heal. Only one problem with this. The dark one woun't let it heal. He's sticking his little oinky through the whole.

 

so what to do? Their lies in the problem. Something has to push the great lord back through the bore long enough for the pattern to close itself. Once the DO is no longer interfering with the pattern, the pattern can then close off and voila we have anew prison predating lanfear and co hooliganism

 

And so, once the seals are destroyed and the patch taken off, which allows the pattern to heal itself, who, or what, forces the DO back through the bore long enough for the pattern to heal? And does the pattern heal itself so quickly, or would someone need to help it?

[Elan Tedronai]

I think that's where rand comes in. The process of pushing the DO back through the bore.

 

And also speeding up the healing process of the pattern will be another major task. Remember the pattern is made out of souls and rand is a taveren. So it's another issue.

 

But yeah that crux of it. Prison has to be remade to it's original position. And for that to happen the hole lanfear created should be closed off by the pattern. And for that to happen, The DO needs to be bitchslapped back into his hole.