Egwenes discovery of the true Aes Sedai symbol in TAR

[jpoppin23]

When egwene visits the WT in TAR she discovers the true symbol on the glass, how do you think thos will play out? Will she discover the true roots of Aes Sedai and have Asha man join? What?

[David Selig]

The fact that the aes Sedai in AOL were both men and women is common knowledge, there's nothing for her to discover.

[jpoppin23]

Ok true, but what I'm saying is she also knows the other half of the circle the 'dragons fang' to be destruction and evil. They took that out when LTT when mad did they not? Do you think she will bring the WT to the glory days of the AOL or would she do ...?

[Ananta]

I'm pretty sure that the tower Elaida started building will become the home for Ashaman.

[randsc]

She already knew what the focal points for the Seals looked like; she didn't find anything new to her in TAR.

[Xcorpyo001]

I'm pretty sure that the tower Elaida started building will become the home for Ashaman.

 

 

I think that palace is smaller than the WT. Me don't like it.

Now, a tower on the top of Dragonmount, that would be a lot better. And will add to the Black Tower magic, not to mention a direct connection with the guy who created the 'farm'.

And she could see it from that window. They'll stop having direct sunlight in the Hall if they build it on the top of the mountain, but I think the AS can survive the loss.

[Suttree]

I'm pretty sure that the tower Elaida started building will become the home for Ashaman.

 

 

I think that palace is smaller than the WT. Me don't like it.

Now, a tower on the top of Dragonmount, that would be a lot better. And will add to the Black Tower magic, not to mention a direct connection with the guy who created the 'farm'.

And she could see it from that window. They'll stop having direct sunlight in the Hall if they build it on the top of the mountain, but I think the AS can survive the loss.

 

I recall Elaida in her megalomania planned to make the palace a bit taller than the WT. Is that correct or I imagining things?

[David Selig]

I am too lazy to check how it's in the books, but I certainly recall that in the famous Isam mock WoT summaries Elaida's planned palace was called "The Taller Tower". ;)

[Rand alSaurus]

I think that palace is smaller than the WT. Me don't like it.

Now, a tower on the top of Dragonmount, that would be a lot better. And will add to the Black Tower magic, not to mention a direct connection with the guy who created the 'farm'.

And she could see it from that window. They'll stop having direct sunlight in the Hall if they build it on the top of the mountain, but I think the AS can survive the loss.

 

I believe the intentions were to make it around the same size, and a tad taller.

 

Great diggings and foundations spread across what had been the Warders' practice yard, tall wooden cranes and stacks of cut marble and granite. Masons and laborers swarmed over the workings like ants, and endless streams of wagons trailed through the gates onto the Tower grounds, bringing more stone. To one side stood a wooden "working model," as the masons called it, big enough for men to enter crouching on their heels and see every detail, where every stone should go. Most of the workmen could not read, after all-neither words nor mason's drawn plans. The "working model" was as large as some manor houses.

 

When any king or queen had a palace, why should the Amyrlin Seat be relegated to apartments little better than those of many ordinary sisters? Her palace would match the White Tower for splendor, and have a great spire ten spans higher than the Tower itself. The blood had drained from the chief mason's face when he heard that. The Tower had been Ogier-built, with assistance from sisters using the Power. One look at Elaida's face, however, set Master Lerman bowing and stammering that of course allw ould be done as she wished. As if there had been any question.

[Xcorpyo001]

I think that palace is smaller than the WT. Me don't like it.

Now, a tower on the top of Dragonmount, that would be a lot better. And will add to the Black Tower magic, not to mention a direct connection with the guy who created the 'farm'.

And she could see it from that window. They'll stop having direct sunlight in the Hall if they build it on the top of the mountain, but I think the AS can survive the loss.

 

I believe the intentions were to make it around the same size, and a tad taller.

 

Great diggings and foundations spread across what had been the Warders' practice yard, tall wooden cranes and stacks of cut marble and granite. Masons and laborers swarmed over the workings like ants, and endless streams of wagons trailed through the gates onto the Tower grounds, bringing more stone. To one side stood a wooden "working model," as the masons called it, big enough for men to enter crouching on their heels and see every detail, where every stone should go. Most of the workmen could not read, after all-neither words nor mason's drawn plans. The "working model" was as large as some manor houses.

 

When any king or queen had a palace, why should the Amyrlin Seat be relegated to apartments little better than those of many ordinary sisters? Her palace would match the White Tower for splendor, and have a great spire ten spans higher than the Tower itself. The blood had drained from the chief mason's face when he heard that. The Tower had been Ogier-built, with assistance from sisters using the Power. One look at Elaida's face, however, set Master Lerman bowing and stammering that of course allw ould be done as she wished. As if there had been any question.

 

 

Well, from this I don't get the impression it will be bigger than the WT. It will just have a spire higher than anything in the middle, and that can be a lot smaller in size than the WT.

And the WT was built by Ogier and with the help of OP. This is built by illiterate peasants, after plans made up by Elaida(at least the size and form). I think even an Accepted can level the thing with a gust of air.

 

And it was Elaida's plan. A place to receive guests and such. So there will be a lot of empty places, gardens, throne rooms, and some extravagant guest rooms. I don't think they'll have room in that building for all the Asha'man. Even if most of them die, they'll still have a much better recruiting program, so they'll grow a lot faster in number.

Since the BT is the only institution that can train male channellers, even the Aiel, Sea folk, and less likely the Seachan(If the Dragon will force them to stop killing male channellers) will send the men to train there, while the WO and Windfinders and sul'dam/damane will still train independently from the WT.

[LazyMonk]

The Black Tower's location wasn't too favorable in the first place. Rand started it out as a farm, My guess is he never imagined it'll grow as it had - or he wouldn't have left it to Taim (I'd like to believe that).

Now that the Balck Tower is Foretold to doom ..."The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds", The Asha'man need a new base. Since they they have already 50 sisters bonded and soon to be 100, and since the Asha'man already rival the Aes Sedai in power, farther relations between them are unavoidable. It seems logical for the Asha'man to relocate to Tar Valon.

[Xcorpyo001]

The Black Tower's location wasn't too favorable in the first place. Rand started it out as a farm, My guess is he never imagined it'll grow as it had - or he wouldn't have left it to Taim (I'd like to believe that).

Now that the Balck Tower is Foretold to doom ..."The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds", The Asha'man need a new base. Since they they have already 50 sisters bonded and soon to be 100, and since the Asha'man already rival the Aes Sedai in power, farther relations between them are unavoidable. It seems logical for the Asha'man to relocate to Tar Valon.

 

 

The Foretelling can be seen from a different angle, not only from Elaida's pov, that the entire tower will be leveled to the ground and conquered by AS. There will be fires and blood, there always is in fight between Ashaman, but the sisters walking the grounds can be the ones bonded to the light-side Ashaman or those outside the walls, helping the good Ashaman in their fight against Taim&co.

The WT was also 'rented in fire and blood' during the Seachan raid, and damane walked the grounds, and it's still there.

 

It will be a looong time before the AS can see them as equals. Being at the mercy/pity of the AS will not be such a logical thing, at least not from my point of view.

They should rebuild the tower and continue negotiations with the WT from a equal position, which will not be the case if they put their tower inside or near Tar Valon, where AS rule. They could put some limitation on their training, demand access whenever they want(as Elayne did)...and they can't ask the same of the WT, they will not have an income as the AS. The Pact forces the other countries to pay tribute to the AS in exchange for nonexistent help, and so on. The Ashaman don't have this, at least not yet.

[LazyMonk]

It will be a looong time before the AS can see them as equals. Being at the mercy/pity of the AS will not be such a logical thing, at least not from my point of view.

They should rebuild the tower and continue negotiations with the WT from a equal position, which will not be the case if they put their tower inside or near Tar Valon, where AS rule. They could put some limitation on their training, demand access whenever they want(as Elayne did)...and they can't ask the same of the WT, they will not have an income as the AS. The Pact forces the other countries to pay tribute to the AS in exchange for nonexistent help, and so on. The Ashaman don't have this, at least not yet.

In the long run, and I mean LONG, channelers must strive to unite again as female AND male Aes Sedai -- resurrect the Hall of Servants as it were. Just as the greatest feats of the Power required both Saidin and Saidar, The Aes Sedai will be the most powerful if they incorporate the men into them again.

Sure it'll take decades. 3000 years of harboring pathological fear of male channelers will take time to overcome, but the bonding is a huge step in the right direction. You cannot fear someone who is so intimately linked to you.

Building your own tower--a symbol of pride and distancing--is not the way to go about calming the people's fears.

[randsc]

The Asha'man will certainly end up in Elaida's tower. That tower is mentioned no less than 4 times in the text. Under the principle of Chekhov's Gun, there must be a reason.

 

I bet the Tower is turned Black, too.

[MasterAblar]

The Asha'man will certainly end up in Elaida's tower. That tower is mentioned no less than 4 times in the text. Under the principle of Chekhov's Gun, there must be a reason.

 

I bet the Tower is turned Black, too.

 

I'm pretty sure that Elaida's Tower is nothing but foundations at this point, and I doubt construction has continued since Egwene became Amrylin. There's not really much to live in at this point. The WT took a long time to be built, and it'll be the same with this one, if it even is built.

[MasterAblar]

It will be a looong time before the AS can see them as equals. Being at the mercy/pity of the AS will not be such a logical thing, at least not from my point of view.

They should rebuild the tower and continue negotiations with the WT from a equal position, which will not be the case if they put their tower inside or near Tar Valon, where AS rule. They could put some limitation on their training, demand access whenever they want(as Elayne did)...and they can't ask the same of the WT, they will not have an income as the AS. The Pact forces the other countries to pay tribute to the AS in exchange for nonexistent help, and so on. The Ashaman don't have this, at least not yet.

In the long run, and I mean LONG, channelers must strive to unite again as female AND male Aes Sedai -- resurrect the Hall of Servants as it were. Just as the greatest feats of the Power required both Saidin and Saidar, The Aes Sedai will be the most powerful if they incorporate the men into them again.

Sure it'll take decades. 3000 years of harboring pathological fear of male channelers will take time to overcome, but the bonding is a huge step in the right direction. You cannot fear someone who is so intimately linked to you.

Building your own tower--a symbol of pride and distancing--is not the way to go about calming the people's fears.

 

I don't think the Ashaman care all that much about people's fears, they care about making a place for themselves in the world. Moving into a tower in Tar Valon, in the center of Aes Sedai power will look like the Ashaman have been "tamed" by the Aes Sedai to the general populace. Sure everyone could play nice and decide to work together. But those last 3000 have bred not just fear for male channelers, but rather great hate and prejudice between Aes Sedai and male channelers, something that isn't going to be forgotten very quickly by either side.

Also why would the Ashaman want to join the Aes Sedai? The WT has, overall, been losing influence and power lately, whereas the BT has been gaining influence and power. Not only that but the Ashaman are pretty darn proud of who and what they are. They aren't going to give that up to be Aes Sedai.

[Suttree]

Well, from this I don't get the impression it will be bigger than the WT. It will just have a spire higher than anything in the middle, and that can be a lot smaller in size than the WT.

And the WT was built by Ogier and with the help of OP. This is built by illiterate peasants, after plans made up by Elaida(at least the size and form). I think even an Accepted can level the thing with a gust of air.

 

And it was Elaida's plan. A place to receive guests and such. So there will be a lot of empty places, gardens, throne rooms, and some extravagant guest rooms. I don't think they'll have room in that building for all the Asha'man. Even if most of them die, they'll still have a much better recruiting program, so they'll grow a lot faster in number.

Since the BT is the only institution that can train male channellers, even the Aiel, Sea folk, and less likely the Seachan(If the Dragon will force them to stop killing male channellers) will send the men to train there, while the WO and Windfinders and sul'dam/damane will still train independently from the WT.

 

Now that Elaida is dead there is nothing that says the Ashaman have to follow those original plans. Only the foundations have been built, there is nothing for an accepted to level. They would be free to do whatever they wanted with the space in building a new BT. We know the "guardians will balance the servants" so I don't think it is that unlikely.

 

As for the training moving forward we haven't seen what the different races will do in the long run now that the taint is gone, we can olny guess. With the AS we do know however they will not be training inedependently since the channeler exchange program has been instituted by Eggy.

 

Also why would the Ashaman want to join the Aes Sedai. The WT has, overall, been losing influence and power lately, whereas the BT has been gaining influence and power. Not only that but the Ashaman are pretty darn proud of who and what they are. They aren't going to give that up to be Aes Sedai.

 

At some point, not any time soon granted the world is going to be a vastly different place. The Ashaman as they are now are weapons made for a very specific purpose. What then happens when they have a new mandate, when rebuilding and peace are at a premium instead of fighting?

[Xcorpyo001]

Well, from this I don't get the impression it will be bigger than the WT. It will just have a spire higher than anything in the middle, and that can be a lot smaller in size than the WT.

And the WT was built by Ogier and with the help of OP. This is built by illiterate peasants, after plans made up by Elaida(at least the size and form). I think even an Accepted can level the thing with a gust of air.

 

And it was Elaida's plan. A place to receive guests and such. So there will be a lot of empty places, gardens, throne rooms, and some extravagant guest rooms. I don't think they'll have room in that building for all the Asha'man. Even if most of them die, they'll still have a much better recruiting program, so they'll grow a lot faster in number.

Since the BT is the only institution that can train male channellers, even the Aiel, Sea folk, and less likely the Seachan(If the Dragon will force them to stop killing male channellers) will send the men to train there, while the WO and Windfinders and sul'dam/damane will still train independently from the WT.

 

Now that Elaida is dead there is nothing that says the Ashaman have to follow those original plans. Only the foundations have been built, there is nothing for an accepted to level. They would be free to do whatever they wanted with the space in building a new BT. We know the "guardians will balance the servants" so I don't think it is that unlikely.

 

As for the training moving forward we haven't seen what the different races will do in the long run now that the taint is gone, we can olny guess. With the AS we do know however they will not be training inedependently since the channeler exchange program has been instituted by Eggy.

 

Also why would the Ashaman want to join the Aes Sedai. The WT has, overall, been losing influence and power lately, whereas the BT has been gaining influence and power. Not only that but the Ashaman are pretty darn proud of who and what they are. They aren't going to give that up to be Aes Sedai.

 

At some point, not any time soon granted the world is going to be a vastly different place. The Ashaman as they are now are weapons made for a very specific purpose. What then happens when they have a new mandate, when rebuilding and peace are at a premium instead of fighting?

 

 

Actually, they will still train independently because they will just exchange a couple students for starters.

The trainee exchange program is small scale for now, and it will be so for a long time.

WO will never be completely immersed in the AS organisation, because they have members that don't use OP, and I don't think they'll just let all the OP go to the WT, and let only the normal WO behind.

The AS power based hierarchy is another big no no. A new AS, no more than 20 years old, can treat all other AS like trash because she is more powerful in OP, even if she can't spell her name(yes, yes, they teach them to write/read, but some just barely).

That will never work with Windfinders and especially WO, where knowledge and experience are more important than the amount of power they can/can't use.

So there will be decades/centuries until only the female channellers will find a middle ground and unite.

 

 

Saying that Ashaman will jump and 'embrace' the WT and it's rules/doctrines is far-fetched at the moment.

 

I think every organisation will slowly start to create female/male organisation, but not like the same thing.

 

From Aviendha's sneak peak to the future we see that:

-WT and BT exist as two separate entities

-Aiel have WO and DRagon Blooded(male channellers)...they are both present at that council...or at least the children of the Dragon are.

They don't say anything about the Sea Folk, but I think they'll have their own male channellers, just as the Aiel, or they'll sent them to the BT, to honor the memory of the Coramoon(as the Aiel do by naming them Dragon Blooded)

 

If Rand actually survives, he can speed up the process by telling them how the servants were organised in the AoL.

Of course, they'll have a new rule about not digging holes in the Pattern, but other than that, they can go old school.

[Suttree]

From Aviendha's sneak peak to the future we see that:

-WT and BT exist as two separate entities

-Aiel have WO and DRagon Blooded(male channellers)...they are both present at that council...or at least the children of the Dragon are.

They don't say anything about the Sea Folk, but I think they'll have their own male channellers, just as the Aiel, or they'll sent them to the BT, to honor the memory of the Coramoon(as the Aiel do by naming them Dragon Blooded)

 

Does anyone really think Avi's vision is going to actually happen? I always viewed the vision as cautionary rather than really being the future...

 

As for the training any exchange, no matter how small, it means they are not training independently. Each generation of accepted/apprentices etc that come back with lessons from the different cultures will create change and foster greater understanding.

[Xcorpyo001]

From Aviendha's sneak peak to the future we see that:

-WT and BT exist as two separate entities

-Aiel have WO and DRagon Blooded(male channellers)...they are both present at that council...or at least the children of the Dragon are.

They don't say anything about the Sea Folk, but I think they'll have their own male channellers, just as the Aiel, or they'll sent them to the BT, to honor the memory of the Coramoon(as the Aiel do by naming them Dragon Blooded)

 

Does anyone really think Avi's vision is going to actually happen? I always viewed the vision as cautionary rather than really being the future...

 

 

As I said before, there is an old Aiel prophecy about their complete destruction if they fail/fight AS again.

I think that was actually a foretelling about Aiel fighting damane(not known at that time), and since foretelling usually come true, that will be the real future if they'll attack the Seachan.

But, since Aviendha happens to know 3 taveren strong enough to influence the pattern, that future can be avoided, if they can release the WO(the main reason for the war).

Since one of those taveren is Emperor, another one has the respect of the captain that captured those WO, and the third is in love with her and can't say no to anything she may ask of him, Rand will make a demand for releasing the WO for the kneeling part, so it can be avoided.

 

But other than the Aiel end of days, everything else seem possible.

[FarShainMael]

When egwene visits the WT in TAR she discovers the true symbol on the glass, how do you think thos will play out? Will she discover the true roots of Aes Sedai and have Asha man join? What?

 

In fact, what she sees is not the true AS symbol but this:

 

There, set into the glass below the Flame of Tar Valon, was a large segment in the shape of the Dragon's Fang.

 

In the true symbol, the Fang would be beside the Flame, not below it.

 

What clue does this give us to Egwene's thoughts at this point?

[Kahsm]

When egwene visits the WT in TAR she discovers the true symbol on the glass, how do you think thos will play out? Will she discover the true roots of Aes Sedai and have Asha man join? What?

 

In fact, what she sees is not the true AS symbol but this:

 

There, set into the glass below the Flame of Tar Valon, was a large segment in the shape of the Dragon's Fang.

 

In the true symbol, the Fang would be beside the Flame, not below it.

 

What clue does this give us to Egwene's thoughts at this point?

 

Are you suggesting that it was Egwene's thoughts that made the change in TAR? I don't think she'd be so careless with her thoughts at that point in the books. If anything it could be a TAR vision like Perrin has when he pops into the wolfdream at times? Or I think in the podcast there's a theory from Tamyrlin (that's the theoryland guy right?) that it's actually a reflection of a mirror world blending with the reflection of the real world because of pattern fraying issues.

[MasterAblar]

Well, from this I don't get the impression it will be bigger than the WT. It will just have a spire higher than anything in the middle, and that can be a lot smaller in size than the WT.

And the WT was built by Ogier and with the help of OP. This is built by illiterate peasants, after plans made up by Elaida(at least the size and form). I think even an Accepted can level the thing with a gust of air.

 

And it was Elaida's plan. A place to receive guests and such. So there will be a lot of empty places, gardens, throne rooms, and some extravagant guest rooms. I don't think they'll have room in that building for all the Asha'man. Even if most of them die, they'll still have a much better recruiting program, so they'll grow a lot faster in number.

Since the BT is the only institution that can train male channellers, even the Aiel, Sea folk, and less likely the Seachan(If the Dragon will force them to stop killing male channellers) will send the men to train there, while the WO and Windfinders and sul'dam/damane will still train independently from the WT.

 

Now that Elaida is dead there is nothing that says the Ashaman have to follow those original plans. Only the foundations have been built, there is nothing for an accepted to level. They would be free to do whatever they wanted with the space in building a new BT. We know the "guardians will balance the servants" so I don't think it is that unlikely.

 

As for the training moving forward we haven't seen what the different races will do in the long run now that the taint is gone, we can olny guess. With the AS we do know however they will not be training inedependently since the channeler exchange program has been instituted by Eggy.

 

The thing is, the Ashaman have the monopoly on saidin. No one knows how to use it but them (and the forsaken of course). Unless the Sea Folk and Aiel want their male channelers to die, they'll have to send them to the BT. And once you join the BT you don't get to keep your old loyalties. They could find a compromise, but nonetheless, the Ashaman have a huge advantage in this.

 

As for Elaida's tower, like you said, it's only at the foundations point. Even if the Ashaman don't mind going there, which I find doubtful, where would they Ashaman go while it's being completed?

 

Also why would the Ashaman want to join the Aes Sedai. The WT has, overall, been losing influence and power lately, whereas the BT has been gaining influence and power. Not only that but the Ashaman are pretty darn proud of who and what they are. They aren't going to give that up to be Aes Sedai.

 

At some point, not any time soon granted the world is going to be a vastly different place. The Ashaman as they are now are weapons made for a very specific purpose. What then happens when they have a new mandate, when rebuilding and peace are at a premium instead of fighting?

 

None of this would require them to join the Aes Sedai and give up being Ashaman. Their purpose just needs to be broadened, sort of like the Red Ajah. They can become more than just weapons, even if I think they'll keep a certain focus on their fighting abilities. Grady for exampled seems to have already realised this.

 

I'm not saying that they won't work with the Aes Sedai at all. With time, once the hatred and prejudice fade away, they'll undoubtebly begin working together more often. However, even then, nothing would require them, the Ashaman, to become Aes Sedai. They could remain seperate, and work together as equals. But that's not about to happen immediately after the Last Battle. It's too soon.

 

From Aviendha's sneak peak to the future we see that:

-WT and BT exist as two separate entities

-Aiel have WO and DRagon Blooded(male channellers)...they are both present at that council...or at least the children of the Dragon are.

They don't say anything about the Sea Folk, but I think they'll have their own male channellers, just as the Aiel, or they'll sent them to the BT, to honor the memory of the Coramoon(as the Aiel do by naming them Dragon Blooded)

 

Does anyone really think Avi's vision is going to actually happen? I always viewed the vision as cautionary rather than really being the future...

 

As for the training any exchange, no matter how small, it means they are not training independently. Each generation of accepted/apprentices etc that come back with lessons from the different cultures will create change and foster greater understanding.

 

I don't believe that the future she was shown is anything more than a possible future, however it does make it clear that the Ashaman and Aes Sedai don't neccesarily join together. Furthermore seeing as in one of the visions we learn that the Ashaman's fortress has fallen, this would mean that either the Ashaman stay right where they are or relocate, but not in Tar Valon.

 

I don't really see any point in the Ashaman moving from where they are anyway. So the BT is rent, that doesn't mean it will be utterly razed to the ground. And even if it was they just rebuild right there, instead of moving elsewhere. Who's going to stop them?

[Kahsm]

I think you're making a rather monumental mistake assuming that Ashaman have a monopoly on Saidin as you say. Aes Sedai thought the same for a long time remember? And while it's only recently cleansed, there's no reason other cultures won't figure out how to hang on to their men the way they did their women once the stigma is gone.

[MasterAblar]

I think you're making a rather monumental mistake assuming that Ashaman have a monopoly on Saidin as you say. Aes Sedai thought the same for a long time remember? And while it's only recently cleansed, there's no reason other cultures won't figure out how to hang on to their men the way they did their women once the stigma is gone.

 

We already know what happens to male channelers in the other cultures. If they're Aiel they go die in the blight fighting shadowspawn. If they're Sea Folk, I believe they drown themselves. If they're Sharan, I think they're killed when they start to channel. And if they're Seachan they're hunted down and killed on the spot. The Aes Sedai made the mistake of thinking they were the only female channelers in the world out of arrogance. It's not the same thing for male channelers, the taint doesn't, or didn't, allow them to survive. That's why there is no other group of male channelers in the world apart from the Ashaman. The taint did not allow for there to be any.

 

Of course there will be male channelers among the other cultures, but the only ones who can train them are the Ashaman, and they're not about to train them for free. The male channelers from the other cultures could try to learn on their own, but only those with the spark will be able to do that, and three out of four of those will die. Even if they were willing to take that risk, and managed to survive, they still wouldn't know much. They certainly wouldn't be able to teach other how to channel. Rand couldn't, and it's still a mystery that Taim could.

 

Also, it'll take some time for the prejudice against male channelers to fade completely, and until that time, it will be much safer, and more profitable for them, if the male channelers from other cultures to go to the BT, among others who are just like them.

 

Or they could, you know, take their chances with the Land of Madmen. But I think that's rather unlikely.