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#21 Werthead

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 04:00 PM

Also, Films aren't limited to 3 hours. Lord of the Rings certainly wasn't Granted, each film had an extra 30mins of film in the extended edition, but I don't see how WoT couldn't do that. You know, cut out things that aren't [i]that[i] relevant to the main story for the cinema release, but have them on an extended or directors cut etc.


LORD OF THE RINGS was a special case. The movies were based on what is, by some counts, the single most popular novel ever written, with 250 million or more copies sold. It was a hugely well-known property that was already a household name worldwide. The studio was prepared to take a bit more of a risk by making a 3-hour movie, and once the first film was successful they were happy to make the third film a lot longer to fit everything in.

WHEEL OF TIME is not in that bracket. Outside of fantasy fans, it's a relatively obscure work without that worldwide, built-in audience. It's unlikely the first film would be that long. Later films if the first is successful, sure, but the first one would likely have to come in at 2-2.5 hours at the most. And that's only possible if it only adapts part of THE EYE OF THE WORLD or strips out about 50% of the plot and characters.

However, a television series would actually add to the amount of material needed - an hour long episode in FoH onwards would require a hell of a lot of recap on even a small selection of characters


Not necessarily. A TV series would likely adopt the same format as LOST and some other shows (including GAME OF THRONES): each episode would focus on a number of characters and focus on them, and then switch to others in the next episode, then back and so on. Pretty much like in the books already, where some characters sit out a book or just a few chapters in a row and then come back later on. The narrative structure of WoT actually maps to a TV adaptation rather better than GAME OF THRONES, where the POV chapter format is sometimes a constraint on what can be adapted and changed.

I have better things to do than watch 14 seasons of a tv show.


You wouldn't do it like that (10 episodes of CROSSROADS OF TWILIGHT, yay!). You'd adapt maybe 2 books as a season, possibly 3 books per season later on. That's why 15-20 episode seasons would be desirable, but it would be more likely to be 10-12 episode seasons. It would still be doable: 6 hours for EYE OF THE WORLD is still a vast improvement on the 2.5 hours that a movie adaptation would be able to deliver at best.
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#22 Lancer

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 04:25 PM

I think it would be possible for HBO or Showtime to do a 24 ep. season...2 books/season for WoT...That way the actors will age w/ the story and it would take as long to make. Game of Thrones is your benchmark and template of how to do this. Now will Universal do this? I dunno, but if Harriett has any control over the subject could someone mention this to her at the next JordanCon???

#23 Werthead

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 04:28 PM

Harriet has no control. The rights are completely owned by Universal, at least for now.

HBO/Showtime etc don't do 24-episode seasons. They feel they take up too much time in their schedules and with their huge budgets are too expensive. GoT is $6 million an episode. At 20 episodes it'd be $3 million per episode, but each episode would have little to no special effects, very little outdoor filming etc. Having fewer episodes maximises your resources into each episode.
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#24 pe@nut

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 09:15 AM

Honestly I don't think WoT should ever be adapted into any movie or tv show. As awesome as I think Game of Thrones is there is no way for WoT to turn out the same. Reading GoT feels like a series. Its full of plots, victims, villains and people trying to get the best of each other in a fantasy setting. WoT is by far my favourite series of books but the story simply does not work on either screen.

I doubt that it will happen as much as some of us want it. Think of it from a producers point of view. He would be signing up for at least 14 years of a project which might not pay off. It would be incredibly difficult to get it right.

#25 Tyzack

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 10:58 AM

I've been thinking about this, and I don't think that the movies need to be 3.5h/book (because if they were then that would be, um, ridicolous, evening a 14-year series is streching it).

Fortunately, i don't think they need to be; you could probably do it in 5 3-4 hour movies...basically taking my idea from the repackaging of the books:

Movie 1: <The Dragon Reborn>
Covers books 1-3 (eye, hunt, dr)
Movie 2: <Lord of Chaos>
Covers 4-7 (tsr, foh, loc)
Movie 3: <Winter's Heart>
Covers 8-11:
pod, cos, wh, kod
Movie 4: A Memory of Light
TGS/ToM/AMoL

Clearly some sceenes would need to be cut out, how much scheming do we have to see the the WT? How long does it need to take to get the salidar AS ready? Rebellious nobels? Etc, etc...

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#26 gcowboy

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 09:10 PM

i agree with pe@nut... i think that whether they made it into a tv series or movies it would totally just kill the books for me. There is no way that you would be able to put in all the info that are in the books and put it on either series/movies. All of the complex plots, characters POVs, and just the detail in general are what made the books awesome for me. I just dont think that they could do a decent job of it. Of course while i am saying this if/when they ever do come out with a movie/tv series i will still watch and own every single season/ movie of it. :)

#27 Vieira151

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 12:35 PM

Also, Films aren't limited to 3 hours. Lord of the Rings certainly wasn't Granted, each film had an extra 30mins of film in the extended edition, but I don't see how WoT couldn't do that. You know, cut out things that aren't [i]that[i] relevant to the main story for the cinema release, but have them on an extended or directors cut etc.


LORD OF THE RINGS was a special case. The movies were based on what is, by some counts, the single most popular novel ever written, with 250 million or more copies sold. It was a hugely well-known property that was already a household name worldwide. The studio was prepared to take a bit more of a risk by making a 3-hour movie, and once the first film was successful they were happy to make the third film a lot longer to fit everything in.

WHEEL OF TIME is not in that bracket. Outside of fantasy fans, it's a relatively obscure work without that worldwide, built-in audience. It's unlikely the first film would be that long. Later films if the first is successful, sure, but the first one would likely have to come in at 2-2.5 hours at the most. And that's only possible if it only adapts part of THE EYE OF THE WORLD or strips out about 50% of the plot and characters.


As I said already somewhere, the Lord of the Rings trilogy were all filmed at the same time over a course of 5 years. They didn't make the 3rd film slightly longer because the others were successful, because they were filming it at the same time as the 1st film. It was always planned. Sure, they may have left some extra scenes they originally planned to cut from the cinema release, but in the end it was still planned to be that length from the start. (And also, all the films have around 30mins extra in the extended. So they cut pretty much the exact same amount out each film for the cinema release of each).

Apart from that I do agree. There was a greater chance it would still attract a huge amount of people due to their knowledge of it, which is unlikely for the Wheel of Time.

Well, she(Lanfear) almost rode Rand like the cowboy that he is back in TSR. Asmodean got in the way and cock-blocked her though.


#28 Tyzack

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 12:55 PM


Also, Films aren't limited to 3 hours. Lord of the Rings certainly wasn't Granted, each film had an extra 30mins of film in the extended edition, but I don't see how WoT couldn't do that. You know, cut out things that aren't [i]that[i] relevant to the main story for the cinema release, but have them on an extended or directors cut etc.


LORD OF THE RINGS was a special case. The movies were based on what is, by some counts, the single most popular novel ever written, with 250 million or more copies sold. It was a hugely well-known property that was already a household name worldwide. The studio was prepared to take a bit more of a risk by making a 3-hour movie, and once the first film was successful they were happy to make the third film a lot longer to fit everything in.

WHEEL OF TIME is not in that bracket. Outside of fantasy fans, it's a relatively obscure work without that worldwide, built-in audience. It's unlikely the first film would be that long. Later films if the first is successful, sure, but the first one would likely have to come in at 2-2.5 hours at the most. And that's only possible if it only adapts part of THE EYE OF THE WORLD or strips out about 50% of the plot and characters.


As I said already somewhere, the Lord of the Rings trilogy were all filmed at the same time over a course of 5 years. They didn't make the 3rd film slightly longer because the others were successful, because they were filming it at the same time as the 1st film. It was always planned. Sure, they may have left some extra scenes they originally planned to cut from the cinema release, but in the end it was still planned to be that length from the start. (And also, all the films have around 30mins extra in the extended. So they cut pretty much the exact same amount out each film for the cinema release of each).

Apart from that I do agree. There was a greater chance it would still attract a huge amount of people due to their knowledge of it, which is unlikely for the Wheel of Time.



That is a good point; which i don't think was true for other multi-film series (potter, twilight); while the moving was filming none of the actors took other roles; they were solely focused on LotR for 5 years.

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#29 Vieira151

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 01:12 PM

Hmmm. Reading Wiki has actually told me different to what I just said. I remember hearing on the DVD extras that it took 5 years but I have 2 different time scales on Wiki... Hmm.

...the entire project took eight years, with the filming for all three films done simultaneously and entirely in Jackson's native New Zealand.


and

Principal photography for all three films was conducted concurrently in many locations within New Zealand's conservation areas and national parks between 11 October 1999, and 22 December 2000, a period of 438 days.


Anyway you take it, they were filmed at the same time and took a damn long time. :laugh:

Well, she(Lanfear) almost rode Rand like the cowboy that he is back in TSR. Asmodean got in the way and cock-blocked her though.


#30 Testy al'Carr

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 11:07 PM

i find this series hard to imagine as a possible live action creation, even with avatar like cgi used. it is massive, but takes up about 4 years, its insanely detailed compared to previous ideas of high fantasy (the lord of the rings could fit inside a single book in this series). to conclude i don't think that a visual representation could do justice to the series. trying to get everything you can out of it through anime or cgi would be tedious, abridging it would be like a lobotomy. i think this work would loose allot if you removed the personal imagination from it.

while i would love nothing better than to see this make it as a movie, and maybe in 30 years it could, it just cant be done well yet. you can try whatever way you might, your going to end up with an eragon.

lord of the rings as a movie only worked because it was old, ALLOT of people knew it. and it was SMALL. when it came out it wasn't small, not by any means, but i have a copy of all three books here at home, and i can hold all three, in paperback, across the titles, with one hand. i dare you to do that with the first 3 wot books.

EDIT: i am not including the similarion, and nor did the movies.

Edited by Testy al'Carr, 02 December 2011 - 11:11 PM.

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#31 Werthead

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 12:34 PM

As I said already somewhere, the Lord of the Rings trilogy were all filmed at the same time over a course of 5 years. They didn't make the 3rd film slightly longer because the others were successful, because they were filming it at the same time as the 1st film. It was always planned. Sure, they may have left some extra scenes they originally planned to cut from the cinema release, but in the end it was still planned to be that length from the start. (And also, all the films have around 30mins extra in the extended. So they cut pretty much the exact same amount out each film for the cinema release of each).


Well, filmed over one year (late 99-late 2000) with a couple more several-week shoots in 2001, 2002 and 2003 for pick-ups and reshoots, but essentially correct.

In the background material on the DVDs the film editor said they couldn't go over 3 hours for the first movie because the studio wouldn't be able to sell it to cinemas, and even 3 hours was possible because it was a 'special project'. Once the first two movies had grossed $2 billion between them and made both the studio and cinemas tons of cash, the cinemas dropped this objection so they could go longer for the third film. There was a fair back and forth over how long the film could be, which resulted in some of the chaos in getting the final cut of the third movie (as they didn't know which CGI-heavy scenes they needed to render as they'd be in the film and which they could drop as they would only be in the Extended Edition and which they could drop altogether as they wouldn't be seen at all).

Also, all three films (even the 4 hr 15 minute Extended Edition of the third film) still have a fair number of scenes that have never been seen or included on DVD, like the scenes they filmed of Arwen being at Helm's Deep (which they started shooting before they dropped the idea of her being there).

while the moving was filming none of the actors took other roles; they were solely focused on LotR for 5 years.


Not true. McKellen was finishing filming X-MEN whilst LotR filming started. Orlando Bloom filmed TROY whilst working on the reshoots for the third movie and so on. For the initial year-long shoot, yeah, they didn't work on anything else but that's because they couldn't, as for most of the actors (not say Sean Bean, who was only needed for less than 1/3 of the time, for example) they had to be in New Zealand for the duration.

Fortunately, i don't think they need to be; you could probably do it in 5 3-4 hour movies...basically taking my idea from the repackaging of the books:


As I said you could try to do it like that, but you'd lose 90%+ of the plot of each book. In that format, forget the Shaido, forget the Seanchan (aside from a very simplistic version), forget most of the Black Tower, forget most of the Aes Sedai civil war storyline and be prepared to see the number of Forsaken cut in half. It's not a viable approach if you want to go for accuracy to the books.
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#32 Vieira151

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 08:28 PM

Really? I don't think you'd need to cut them out. I mean, a lot of the books are mainly descriptions, right? They can all just be included in little shots. You don't need a camera shot for every candle or gilded door handle that is mentioned. That's a fair amount of the books bulk out the way already. We can also cut out all the useless menial tasks, as they don't really affect plot(besides a little bit of character development). So get rid of bathing, shaving etc and we reduce what we need to include further. We don't particularly need scenes of people talking of the history of the world. After all, its the plot we want in a film, no necessarily the world(which is necessary in book form, and also video game form to an extent). That's another chunk of the books not needed.

And yeah, I know. I'd like everything included anyway. But then again that's what dvd extras are for, yeah? We can have little extra's talking about the history and what not(a la GoT dvd). Also, yeah. it would probably still push the boundaries of what can be released. We could always hope for extended editions of this too?

Also, I'm trying to think how I'd split it if it was to be 5 films(or 6 if tEotW is being a seperate film).

So:
Film 1: The Eye of the World.
Film 2: The Dragon Reborn - tGH and tDR.
Film 3: Lord of Chaos - tSR, tFoH, LoC.
Film 4: Winter's Heart -aCoS, tPoD, WH.
Film 5: Knife of Dreams - CoT, KoD.
Film 6: A Memory of Light - tGS, ToM, aMoL.

My reasoning is thus:
You don't want to end EVERY film on big setpiece. Sure, you want most to. But you don't want all of them to be similar - building up to the big set piece at the end. Sure, there will be other set pieces during the films, and that is what can be relied on as the films big set pieces. It's mainly for variety, really.

Film 1: Got the battle at the eye of the world. Nice Set Piece.
Film 2: Got the battle at the stone of tear. Nice Set Piece.
Film 3: Sure, we got Dumai Wells. But I think after this film, which includes A LOT, it would be awesome just to have Demandred at Shayol Ghul going "Haven't I done well?". Would be a chilling end, imo.
Film 4: Well, you got the cleansing. That nice enough for you? :P
Film 5: We have Tuon becoming Empress and Perrin saving Faile. For some reason i can't remember if there is anything big at the end of KoD. :(
Film 6: Well. We have TG. What more do you want the film to be? :biggrin:

Well, she(Lanfear) almost rode Rand like the cowboy that he is back in TSR. Asmodean got in the way and cock-blocked her though.


#33 Rose

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 05:58 AM

I used to think that - most of it is just descriptions, surely the actual story isn't that long. But it really is. Just look at the graphic novels. I think they give you a good idea of what the Wheel of Time could look like on screen. There aren't any descriptions: you've got pictures to take care of that. Yet it's still very long. When they finish the Eye of the World, it will probably be too long to fit in a single movie. They would have to cut even more things out.

The only way I see this working is if they cut out entire plotlines and characters, and assign whatever important things they contribute to the overall story to others. Valan Luca and his show, for example. Take that out, and you've cut a good chunk of the story without harming the overall plot. Nynaeve and Elayne just get to Salidar more directly, and Mat and his gang travel alone, and much faster. Sure, that leaves less time to develop his relationship with Tuon, but it's the type of thing that might be done to make it doable as a movie. Same with the Tinkers. You could just remove them without changing much to the story. Less angst for Perrin, no Aram, or Aram with a different backstory. It would still work. Remove the whole stay in Ebou Dar. Make them find the bowl on their second day there, and the Seanchan attack the day after. And so on.

(edited fot typos)

Edited by Rose, 05 December 2011 - 06:01 AM.

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#34 Tyzack

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 07:25 AM

I used to think that - most of it is just descriptions, surely the actual story isn't that long. But it really is. Just look at the graphic novels. I think they give you a good idea of what the Wheel of Time could look like on screen. There aren't any descriptions: you've got pictures to take care of that. Yet it's still very long. When they finish the Eye of the World, it will probably be too long to fit in a single movie. They would have to cut even more things out.

The only way I see this working is if they cut out entire plotlines and characters, and assign whatever important things they contribute to the overall story to others. Valan Luca and his show, for example. Take that out, and you've cut a good chunk of the story without harming the overall plot. Nynaeve and Elayne just get to Salidar more directly, and Mat and his gang travel alone, and much faster. Sure, that leaves less time to develop his relationship with Tuon, but it's the type of thing that might be done to make it doable as a movie. Same with the Tinkers. You could just remove them without changing much to the story. Less angst for Perrin, no Aram, or Aram with a different backstory. It would still work. Remove the whole stay in Ebou Dar. Make them find the bowl on their second day there, and the Seanchan attack the day after. And so on.

(edited fot typos)


That's is basically what I was going after. I don't think they should remove whole plots (have the shadio/faile thing be resolved in one film), and you _need_ to keep the seanchan, but perhaps focus more on tuon/mat.

Do you need the Aes Sedai civil war? Yes, but it doesn't need to take so long...Salidar in FoH, they didn't move to beseige TV for 4 books...

And, while I found them annoying when i read things the first time, on re-read (listen) i came to really enjoy the brief PoVs/focuses on "side" characters, I think that all of these would have to be dropped. Without going into _how_ PoVs would be done, if you limit "character arcs" to the "main" characters:

Rand
Perrin
Mat
The girls + Min and Toun (no faile)

I am going to stop before I start disagreeing with myself. {I am already about to redo this whole post}

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#35 Werthead

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 07:36 AM

I don't think you'd need to cut them out. I mean, a lot of the books are mainly descriptions, right?


So are the LORD OF THE RINGS books, and it still took 11.5 hours to bring the three books (each of which is less than half the length of THE EYE OF THE WORLD by itself) to the screen.

Look at it like this: the second and third HARRY POTTER novels are still reasonably short by any standards (300 pages or so each). Yet the films for them still had to remove certain scenes, numerous lines, simplify things, etc. Then you get to the enormous 4th through 6th books, and the film adaptations are suddenly losing substantial plots and subplots, enter characters and character arcs, and reducing other characters and storylines to cameos.

The rule in Hollywood is that a page in novel will translate roughly to a page of script, and a page of script is meant to represent 1 minute of screentime. That's why film scripts are surprisingly short: 90 pages for an hour and a half movie, or 120 pages for two hours etc. Obviously that's a rough rule of the thumb; an entire page in the script might be taken up by a complex description which passes in 10 seconds on-screen, but that's extremely rare. EotW wouldn't exactly map to this as it is more description-rich than most books, so rather than being 800 pages or 800 minutes (or about 13 hours) long, it might only be about 75-80% of that. But the problem you face is that it needs to be a fifth that length to fit even into a three-hour timeframe and keep most of the plots and characters intact.

So to fit EotW into a single 2 or even 3-hour movie, lots of things will have to be jettisoned, more than I think most WoT fans would be comfortable with. And obviously when you're getting to the longer books in the series, SHADOW RISING, LORD OF CHAOS etc, you're talking about them being totally gutted.
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#36 Rose

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 10:40 AM

And that's if they don't decide to randomly ADD useless stuff to make it more Hollywood-y. Like, oh, half of the 6th Harry Potter movie. It makes me shudder just to think of it.
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#37 Bavarian Raven

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 04:05 PM

Also, I'm trying to think how I'd split it if it was to be 5 films(or 6 if tEotW is being a seperate film).

So:
Film 1: The Eye of the World.
Film 2: The Dragon Reborn - tGH and tDR.
Film 3: Lord of Chaos - tSR, tFoH, LoC.
Film 4: Winter's Heart -aCoS, tPoD, WH.
Film 5: Knife of Dreams - CoT, KoD.
Film 6: A Memory of Light - tGS, ToM, aMoL.

My reasoning is thus:
You don't want to end EVERY film on big setpiece. Sure, you want most to. But you don't want all of them to be similar - building up to the big set piece at the end. Sure, there will be other set pieces during the films, and that is what can be relied on as the films big set pieces. It's mainly for variety, really.

Film 1: Got the battle at the eye of the world. Nice Set Piece.
Film 2: Got the battle at the stone of tear. Nice Set Piece.
Film 3: Sure, we got Dumai Wells. But I think after this film, which includes A LOT, it would be awesome just to have Demandred at Shayol Ghul going "Haven't I done well?". Would be a chilling end, imo.
Film 4: Well, you got the cleansing. That nice enough for you? :P
Film 5: We have Tuon becoming Empress and Perrin saving Faile. For some reason i can't remember if there is anything big at the end of KoD. :(
Film 6: Well. We have TG. What more do you want the film to be?


you know, i could see this working XD

#38 Tyzack

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 05:10 PM

Also, I'm trying to think how I'd split it if it was to be 5 films(or 6 if tEotW is being a seperate film).

So:
Film 1: The Eye of the World.
Film 2: The Dragon Reborn - tGH and tDR.
Film 3: Lord of Chaos - tSR, tFoH, LoC.
Film 4: Winter's Heart -aCoS, tPoD, WH.
Film 5: Knife of Dreams - CoT, KoD.
Film 6: A Memory of Light - tGS, ToM, aMoL.

My reasoning is thus:
You don't want to end EVERY film on big setpiece. Sure, you want most to. But you don't want all of them to be similar - building up to the big set piece at the end. Sure, there will be other set pieces during the films, and that is what can be relied on as the films big set pieces. It's mainly for variety, really.

Film 1: Got the battle at the eye of the world. Nice Set Piece.
Film 2: Got the battle at the stone of tear. Nice Set Piece.
Film 3: Sure, we got Dumai Wells. But I think after this film, which includes A LOT, it would be awesome just to have Demandred at Shayol Ghul going "Haven't I done well?". Would be a chilling end, imo.
Film 4: Well, you got the cleansing. That nice enough for you? :P
Film 5: We have Tuon becoming Empress and Perrin saving Faile. For some reason i can't remember if there is anything big at the end of KoD. :(
Film 6: Well. We have TG. What more do you want the film to be?


you know, i could see this working XD


You'd have to break film 6 up...it looks to be about 3600 pages of text (three 1200 page books)

Fleigt heim, ihr Raben!

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#39 Vieira151

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 03:09 PM

Or you could just completely condense CoT and muddle up the timeline a bit, to include some things from tGS into film 5. In fact, you could slightly mix around non-too important for that film scenes. Like, for example, Shelobs Lair was in Book 2, but Film 3(LotR) etc.

You'd have to arrange it perfectly for it to fit, but I think it could work(obviously, with a fairly large amount of non-essential plot cuts).

Well, she(Lanfear) almost rode Rand like the cowboy that he is back in TSR. Asmodean got in the way and cock-blocked her though.


#40 jbrock76

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 10:41 AM

what about this they split the series in to three-book chunks. they make 3 movies based off of the first 3 books using the same actors. this would take approximately 5 or 6 years to develop and release. the next 3 movies they get a completely new cast. hopefully the same director and the same production companies, so the movies with have the same feel and the same environment. then repeat this process until the entire book series has been adapted. it's not ideal as you would like to have the same characters played by the same actors, but with a series with this size and magnitude, and with fans as detail oriented as we are, you need to have 1 movie per book. otherwise you cut out all the details and that is what we love about the series.