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Mafia Grievances


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#241 Verbal32

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 12:56 PM

I've been avoiding posting about this since my game is still going and I think we can have a more open conversation about it later, but I just wanted to say a few things.

I feel really bad about the way I handled Mynd's modkill in my game. It was a mistake on my part to assume that everyone always uses a QT for communication, but that's the way it has always been since I started playing here so I honestly didn't know any better. I will admit that my rules are not as comprehensive as they should be, and that they should be more concise and clear, and I will sure make sure to be much more specific if I Mod similarly again.

However, I did state that there was no off thread communication unless specified. I told Mynd specifically that he'd have access to the mafia QT and didn't mention anything else. I felt that the rule in the setup was all exclusive except what I permitted via PM, which was the Mafia QT in this case. But that is semantics and I can understand how our two assumptions clashed on the issue.

Even so, with Mynd knowing he was Town aligned player at the time of the PM to a known Mafia aligned player justifies a Modkill. If Mynd had been Mafia just PMing another Mafia, I'd probably have come up with a more lenient solution. Mynd, at that specific time, was Town aligned despite having access to the Mafia QT. The same way I'd expect a Mod to enact punishment for a Symp PMing the mafia team, so also did I think it made sense that a reverse Symp should be punished for a similar type of infraction.

Where I feel that I blundered horribly though was I didn't discuss it with Mynd before I modkilled besides just telling him he shouldn't have done that, which I really should have done. This was a bonehead move on my part and I think is what has led to more heartache than anything else. As Red mentioned, I think of Mynd as a friend and I really enjoy playing with him and his overall style. I think he brings much needed enthusiasm to every game. I was very excited when he played in my game and the role he had was perfect for him. I'm sorry that I made such a decision without talking it out with him, even if the end result had still ended in a modkill, at least I would have handled it properly. As it stands I have offended Mynd and I apologize.

I am willing to talk about it more when the game ends, but I just wanted to make an apology here now since the game could go on for a lot longer.


Awesome post, BG.

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#242 Myndrunner

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 12:56 PM

Just because someone turns out to be mafia does not mean they lied about everything.


If folks can't take the pressure of a game, they need to PM the Mod and ask to be replaced.

No one wants to be the jerk that caused someone to breakdown, even if they didn't do anything but play the game of mafia. I am embarrassed to say that it influenced me, but explaining via PM that one has an illness and appealing to their symapthy is still a form of using said illness and sympathy to manipulate the game, intentional or not. Shame on me for falling for it, but why even bring it up in the game in the first place? If you are telling the truth, why are you playing mafia?

It has been my experience that folks with this issue don't like to make it so public. One should not be expected to play mafia on eggshells and as anything said in a game should be taken as gameplay, that goes both ways. Let this be a lesson to be learned by all.

Bottom line - anything in the thread should be treated as gameplay strategy. If you are truly having a problem, PM the mod and ask to be replaced.

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erm, Mynd's scum. Totally. Look at his beard.


#243 Myndrunner

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 01:13 PM


....a lot of stuff said.....paraphrased means Red disagrees....



Red, you are completely missing the point. Mafia Mods are facilitators not dictators. I didn't ask BG for permission because I didn't think I needed it, based on my years of experience with this game...ON DM! I understand if you want to follow the rules, I too hate to edit my posts even when allowed, but you have to back up rules with reason. You have yet to give me a valid reason why a mod has to know everything said by the mafia.

In my case, I was a town spy but I couldn't outright call any of you scum. The only reason the mani mani thing worked was because I got you all to agree on the gambit AND there was the possibility we could recruit Ithi. All that sending you a PM instead of on the QT changed is that I would know it was you and not Ithi making it up.

See Kivam's post below....



My view is that you can design the game however you want, mod is the mod. There are standards though that when your game varies from it should be made crystal clear. For example, if you don't want the mafia to communicate outside the QT, then you need to be specific about it.

My question is why would you put that restriction?


This +100. Unless there's a game mechanic that requires all mafia be included on all communications, it's a poor rule choice to make (by definition, anything that harms the strategic freedom of your players without a corresponding gameplay benefit is a poor rule choice), and if the choice is made, you need to tell your players about that.


If there is a game mechanic that requires only the Mafia QT to be used, that should be explicit. Otherwise, players will use everything the have at their disposal to win the game. No one is trying to cheat, they are trying to play the game.

I've been avoiding posting about this since my game is still going and I think we can have a more open conversation about it later, but I just wanted to say a few things.

I feel really bad about the way I handled Mynd's modkill in my game. It was a mistake on my part to assume that everyone always uses a QT for communication, but that's the way it has always been since I started playing here so I honestly didn't know any better. I will admit that my rules are not as comprehensive as they should be, and that they should be more concise and clear, and I will sure make sure to be much more specific if I Mod similarly again.



However, I did state that there was no off thread communication unless specified. I told Mynd specifically that he'd have access to the mafia QT and didn't mention anything else. I felt that the rule in the setup was all exclusive except what I permitted via PM, which was the Mafia QT in this case. But that is semantics and I can understand how our two assumptions clashed on the issue.


Even so, with Mynd knowing he was Town aligned player at the time of the PM to a known Mafia aligned player justifies a Modkill. If Mynd had been Mafia just PMing another Mafia, I'd probably have come up with a more lenient solution. Mynd, at that specific time, was Town aligned despite having access to the Mafia QT. The same way I'd expect a Mod to enact punishment for a Symp PMing the mafia team, so also did I think it made sense that a reverse Symp should be punished for a similar type of infraction.

Where I feel that I blundered horribly though was I didn't discuss it with Mynd before I modkilled besides just telling him he shouldn't have done that, which I really should have done. This was a bonehead move on my part and I think is what has led to more heartache than anything else. As Red mentioned, I think of Mynd as a friend and I really enjoy playing with him and his overall style. I think he brings much needed enthusiasm to every game. I was very excited when he played in my game and the role he had was perfect for him. I'm sorry that I made such a decision without talking it out with him, even if the end result had still ended in a modkill, at least I would have handled it properly. As it stands I have offended Mynd and I apologize.


A couple things here, and yeah we prolly should table this discussion until after your game finishes. I wasnt a symp, I was part of the mafia team, but my win condition was town. Therefore, to perform my role correctly, I had to have all the same access as a mafia player has. I also felt that the remaining Mafia players were growing suspicious of my role, so I had to make some moves that were blatantly anti-town.

Apology accepted and maybe we can all learn from this.

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erm, Mynd's scum. Totally. Look at his beard.


#244 bgrishinko

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 01:36 PM

I know I've learned a few things. :myrddraal:
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#245 Levity

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 02:04 PM

Bottom line - anything in the thread should be treated as gameplay strategy. If you are truly having a problem, PM the mod and ask to be replaced.

I;ll remember that for the future.

I guess I;m just going to offer my last formal apology here before I finally let it go and leave it there. First off, I'm sorry to Mynd for unintentionally affecting his game decisions. You weren't necessarily what caused me to break down, though I'll admit I did overreact to what you said to me because as a whole I am sensitive (and I'm still fairly new here, so this is just more I have to learn). I did not at all realize what I said in PM would affect the game at all--I was all the way prepared to be lynched on day two. /: I was wondering what happened when the discussion and pressure nearly instantly veered from me, and you should have told me a little earlier because I didn't exactly know what was going on at the time. If something that I say is misinterpreted or unclear, please ask me to clarify. I actually PM'd you in the first place because I didn't want to take it so far in the game, and I thought it would be treated as outside of the game only and wouldn't affect anything inside of it. The fact that it did honestly surprises me, and also makes me feel ashamed for not being clear enough as well as making it seem like I was using anxiety as sympathy bait to win a game; I was really only trying to explain that if I sounded hostile out of the blue, don't take it personally either and it might be best to wait for me to cool down (and also, I honestly would never lie about anything like this--I apologize again that it seemed like I had been). The same thing really probably would have happened if I were town. It's happened before, and my past experiences have been even worse, and I understand this is a serious problem that I need to learn how to handle and control so I don't end up ruining simple games for other people like this.

I'm also sorry to Wombat; I probably really should have just went ahead and opted to be replaced, but I already felt terrible for the scene that I made as well as being replaced in three previous games. The first game I played here I did fairly well in and was mostly calm for a while, although I did slightly overreact towards John and I knew I just have to work to improve that. I'm excitable and it shows when I play, I suppose. I wanted to stay for Meesh, too, because I hate it when people are disappointed in me and, well, I was afraid of disappointing her. /:

It's unfortunate that I was scum in that game, honestly. It was my first time pulling mafia in a game here (not counting any currently running games I'm here here, which I believe only happens to be BG's at the moment), as well as probably one of the worst weeks I've had in my life, emotionally. I didn't mean to use that as an excuse. If I had known this was the problem, I really would have just asked to be replaced.

Another thing, sometimes I seriously don't realize what I'm saying until it's much too late. If something of this sort ever happens again (I'll do all in my power to not let it, but I can't predict the future), gently pull me aside and tell me I should probably opt to leave the game. If I'm stubborn or I don't listen or try to make excuses, simply lynch me. I think it might be best for everyone.

If you think I'm scummy, lynch me. I won't ask you to pity me because of real life endeavors.
Again, I'm sorry. It was a bad first impression to some of the players that met me for the first time, and I came off as rude, insensitive, and melodramatic. I have a lot to learn.

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#246 Kivam

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 02:54 PM

I've been avoiding posting about this since my game is still going and I think we can have a more open conversation about it later, but I just wanted to say a few things.

I feel really bad about the way I handled Mynd's modkill in my game. It was a mistake on my part to assume that everyone always uses a QT for communication, but that's the way it has always been since I started playing here so I honestly didn't know any better. I will admit that my rules are not as comprehensive as they should be, and that they should be more concise and clear, and I will sure make sure to be much more specific if I Mod similarly again.

However, I did state that there was no off thread communication unless specified. I told Mynd specifically that he'd have access to the mafia QT and didn't mention anything else. I felt that the rule in the setup was all exclusive except what I permitted via PM, which was the Mafia QT in this case. But that is semantics and I can understand how our two assumptions clashed on the issue.

Even so, with Mynd knowing he was Town aligned player at the time of the PM to a known Mafia aligned player justifies a Modkill. If Mynd had been Mafia just PMing another Mafia, I'd probably have come up with a more lenient solution. Mynd, at that specific time, was Town aligned despite having access to the Mafia QT. The same way I'd expect a Mod to enact punishment for a Symp PMing the mafia team, so also did I think it made sense that a reverse Symp should be punished for a similar type of infraction.


Where I feel that I blundered horribly though was I didn't discuss it with Mynd before I modkilled besides just telling him he shouldn't have done that, which I really should have done. This was a bonehead move on my part and I think is what has led to more heartache than anything else. As Red mentioned, I think of Mynd as a friend and I really enjoy playing with him and his overall style. I think he brings much needed enthusiasm to every game. I was very excited when he played in my game and the role he had was perfect for him. I'm sorry that I made such a decision without talking it out with him, even if the end result had still ended in a modkill, at least I would have handled it properly. As it stands I have offended Mynd and I apologize.

I am willing to talk about it more when the game ends, but I just wanted to make an apology here now since the game could go on for a lot longer.


BG - FWIW, from an experienced mafia mod . . . that is NOT a modkill offense.

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#247 LilyElizabeth

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 04:16 PM

Levity, I also have anxiety issues. If you want someone to talk to, I'm around.

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#248 Myndrunner

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 02:47 PM

AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!! @$#&^!!!! *kicks rocks*

Serioulsy?!?!!

How hard is it to be even partially active in a mafia game?! First, why sign up for a game if you aren't going to be playing in it? We all have offline issues, but for crying out loud, it is INCREDIBLY rude and irresponsible to sign up for a game (or even MOD one) and then suddenly bail on it. All you have to do is pop on once every couple days and vote someone or chime in. If life suddenly deals you too much that you just can't find it humanly possible to find a way to get online, send your vote or night action by snail mail. I'll even provide the stamps for you!

I CANNOT BELIEVE THAT IT IS TOO HARD TO GET ONLINE FOR 2 MINUTES TO FRIGGEN VOTE OR ASK TO BE REPLACED!!!!!

I don't hate inactive players, but I do DESPISE inactivity.....so please, for all the starving children in Narnia.........if you sign up for a game, PLAY THE GAME!!!

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erm, Mynd's scum. Totally. Look at his beard.


#249 Ithillian

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 03:01 PM

Oh dear.

Another missing Mod... Or missing player.

*plays whalesong and pan pipes type stuff to calm Mynd*

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#250 Red2111

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 03:30 PM

*pours Mynd some oosquai*
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#251 Sakaea

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 07:18 PM

AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!! @$#&^!!!! *kicks rocks* Serioulsy?!?!! How hard is it to be even partially active in a mafia game?! First, why sign up for a game if you aren't going to be playing in it? We all have offline issues, but for crying out loud, it is INCREDIBLY rude and irresponsible to sign up for a game (or even MOD one) and then suddenly bail on it. All you have to do is pop on once every couple days and vote someone or chime in. If life suddenly deals you too much that you just can't find it humanly possible to find a way to get online, send your vote or night action by snail mail. I'll even provide the stamps for you! I CANNOT BELIEVE THAT IT IS TOO HARD TO GET ONLINE FOR 2 MINUTES TO FRIGGEN VOTE OR ASK TO BE REPLACED!!!!! I don't hate inactive players, but I do DESPISE inactivity.....so please, for all the starving children in Narnia.........if you sign up for a game, PLAY THE GAME!!!


This, a hundred times this. Both as a mod and as a player I find inactivity to be the most irritating thing there is. I have had a low tolerance for it in my games, and that is quickly heading towards zero tolerance. >.<
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#252 LilyElizabeth

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 07:45 PM

I'm going to start a new written rule in my games that I will replace non-active players at my discretion. I don't even feel the need to PM them anymore. You're right, Mynd. It's rude and disrespectful to the other players and especially the mod.

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#253 Eternal Phoenix

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 11:29 PM

hmmm skimming through this makes me want to see what a game that actually starts at day one is like I got called out in Locke's game for being a hammer vote in a deadline game because I didn't want to see a random lynch, (that was really the only part I understood as I knew nothing else about mafia at the time other than random lynch = bad
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#254 Eternal Phoenix

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 11:31 PM

AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!! @$#&^!!!! *kicks rocks*

Serioulsy?!?!!

How hard is it to be even partially active in a mafia game?! First, why sign up for a game if you aren't going to be playing in it? We all have offline issues, but for crying out loud, it is INCREDIBLY rude and irresponsible to sign up for a game (or even MOD one) and then suddenly bail on it. All you have to do is pop on once every couple days and vote someone or chime in. If life suddenly deals you too much that you just can't find it humanly possible to find a way to get online, send your vote or night action by snail mail. I'll even provide the stamps for you!

I CANNOT BELIEVE THAT IT IS TOO HARD TO GET ONLINE FOR 2 MINUTES TO FRIGGEN VOTE OR ASK TO BE REPLACED!!!!!

I don't hate inactive players, but I do DESPISE inactivity.....so please, for all the starving children in Narnia.........if you sign up for a game, PLAY THE GAME!!!


atleast I tried though I was completely lost when I started that game I'm not happy with what Ive been seeing following the remaining part of the game.
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#255 Nolder

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 11:36 PM

I think at one point I may refuse to allow certain people to sign up directly for my games and instead put them as backups until they've shown me they can be active and play a game through to the end (whenever/if they happen to replace someone)

edit: just so it's clear I'm not referring to anyone at the moment
I think for the very next game I mod I'll keep notes on activity though so I can remember who it is I'm not happy with

Edited by Nolder, 09 April 2012 - 11:38 PM.


#256 Verbal32

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 05:52 AM

No need to clarify, Nolder. Hell, I do have a list (in my head) of people I won't let into a game of mine. Unless I see those people active in other games, I'm not going through the inevitable headache of having to deal with inactivity and/or replace them. Simple.

To all mods: don't feel bad about doing this. It will teach the inactive players to either stop being inactive or stop playing mafia. Frankly, either one is fine with me.

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#257 Eternal Phoenix

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 05:58 AM

Am I on your list Verbs?
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#258 Verbal32

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 06:29 AM

Nope. ;-)

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#259 Eternal Phoenix

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 06:33 AM

Must try harder to make Verbs list! >.>
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#260 John McClane

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 06:48 AM

So my biggest problem with mafia today is four things

1) the speed
2) players waiting till deadline to pile on votes
3) people saying something is scummy but give no reason
4) people being overly nice. (it's a game where your lynching and stabbing. Get ruthless, call people out, it makes it more fun)

I just had to say somethings


1) agree, good mods use deadlines - however, deadlines typically favor scum
2) part of the game, get over it
3) what people say IS the game, get over it
4) how people say what they say, get over it

:)
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