How to setup and mod a game:

DPR · July 17, 2011

So, there's a great deal of discussion lately over how to build a balanced game, and what makes a good mod.

I'll start off with a few thoughts, and then we should all talk about what we like, whta we don't like, and how to achieve the kind of game that people love and want more of.

To start, when I was talking with Lily the other day, I realized that too many mods are starting with a theme, and building a game around that.

My thought is that this is reversed. To me, it's kind of like building a house to accommodate the interior decoration you want. In the end, it may look pretty, but how much of the structure did you compromise to do that? Will the house stand up in the storm...you know?

I always start building a game with roles, and then think about what theme will fit the game.

I lay out the game in a very simple way: I list the mafia at the top, any 3rd parties in the middle, and the town under that.

Mafia

Serial Killer - 1 shot

Town - Cop

Town - Doc

Town

Then I define exactly what each players win condition is.

Mafia - You win when you equal or outnumber the town.

Vigilante - You win if you are among the last three players in the game.

Town - You win when you lynch all of the mafia.

DPR · July 17, 2011

Themes:

In my opinion, general themes are the best. The mafia against the town, Werwolves against the village, Vampire Hunters against the vampires, etc. This works because everyone knows the source material. It also works because to use a well known theme (Transformers...or whatever) it is inevitable that metagaming will take over your game.

So, you are dealing with two problems.

1. Not everyone has seen the Transformers, they don't know the material, and the names and actions of the characters are going to be confusing, and frustrating.

2. The players that do know the source material will inevitably drag that material into the game (Optimus has to be a good guy, Megatron has to be a bad guy). The problem with this is, it severely limits how a player might get creative with a role, and how a player might hide that they are that role.

If you do use a theme, keep it simple, and consider not using characters from the story ( so Autobots vs. Decepticons is not too much for someone to understand, and no one gets saddled with having to act like Optimus or Megatron ).

DPR · July 17, 2011

Roles:

Almost every game i've seen lately suffers from what I call "Kitchen Sink Syndrome". They are way overcrowded with roles, and there is no way that they can be balanced.

So, start with the diagram listed above. Every time you give a role to one side, balance it by giving the other side a role that will undo it.

Every game starts with mafia v. town. The mafia's advantage is that they get to communicate and orchestrate their moves. The town gets a Doc and a Cop to balance this out.

If you ad a role to the town, either give the mafia a role 1/3 as powerful - or give the town another role that will trip up, or cancel out the other role (so that they confuse themselves)

***Also

I prefer to list all of the roles that I use in each game in the setup of that game. I find that it helps the players to think about how to use that roil, or spot it, and they play a better game. Not everyone likes to do this, and some like things to be a surpirse, but I've always felt like that's a little rough on newer players. Of course, I am famous for not using the Godfather role, and I refuse to ever "Bastard Mod". To each, ther own...

I generally use the MafiaScum list of roles: http://mafiascum.net...=Category:Roles (I don't play on that board - I can't image taking three weeks to get through a "game day", and they seem a bit snooty...but you ghave to speak a common tongue, and they were the first, so they win).

MODDING: This is maybe the most important part of the entire process - when you mod, you have to be very, very active, so plan for it. One of the worst things that can happen is a mod who only shows up to check the game a couple of times a day. As a rule, i check in a couple of times an hour, ready to post vote counts, answer questions, and tease the game along with scenes.

Mods also have to make on the spot decisions to keep the momentum of the game going. You can't plan for everything, and in every game I've ever modded, there was some little detail that I just didn't think of for the setup. No worries - just fix it.

Mods have to enforce the rules, and follow the rules. Mods should never, ever bend the rules or change them to accomadate friends or emotional situations. I've played a couple of games where the modmade a call that was agains the rules, and it killed the game. When the game dies, and everybody stops playig, that's the worst!

LilyElizabeth · July 17, 2011

This is wonderful info! But didn't you mean SK, not vig in your example?

DPR · July 17, 2011

By cracky, I did. Good catch. I'll fix it.

ed2funy · July 17, 2011

Thanks for the info DPR!

*utilizes*

Alanna · July 18, 2011

To start, when I was talking with Lily the other day, I realized that too many mods are starting with a theme, and building a game around that.

My thought is that this is reversed. To me, it's kind of like building a house to accommodate the interior decoration you want. In the end, it may look pretty, but how much of the structure did you compromise to do that? Will the house stand up in the storm...you know?

I always start building a game with roles, and then think about what theme will fit the game.

This. Although I used to do it the other way, I soon realized it works better if you come up with the game and the setup first, and then find something that fits it. Although I do still sometime get inspiration for a game from other source material.

I will come back to this, but I'm on limited net time right now.

WWWwombat · July 18, 2011

For my latest setups I had the theme in mind before I picked roles but for one of them I also kinda picked that theme because it fits with a role that I've been itching to use. It's also the epitome of kitchen sink, but I think it will be alright. Wanna look at it?

LilyElizabeth · July 18, 2011

I think the occasional "kitchen sink" game is all right, as long as everyone knows up front that the balance may not be right. They can be fun (remembering my Disney game...I had no clue what I was doing back then...) but I prefer the less roled games, personally. I actually like being a vanilla townie.

And thanks, Wes. This really makes sense to me.

WWWwombat · July 18, 2011

Just de-roled five players in my setup so it should be more normal now. Could still use someone to look it over though just so no one goes SMC on me.

I find that a lot of my setup work ends up being pruning and simplification. I put all my ideas in and then have to take a ton of them out.

DPR · July 18, 2011

Just de-roled five players in my setup so it should be more normal now. Could still use someone to look it over though just so no one goes SMC on me.

I find that a lot of my setup work ends up being pruning and simplification. I put all my ideas in and then have to take a ton of them out.

PM me with it!

DPR · July 18, 2011

Also, I'm going to pin my DPR Game Library thread - not because all of humanity needs to revel in the glory that is my collection, but because I get a lot of questions about how certain things work, and lot of times, it's just easier to see them in action.

I do need some help with finding the links to these games! When the boards moved, all of the links were rendered useless, and I just have not had time to go back and look. If you look at a game hit me with the linkage!

LilyElizabeth · July 18, 2011

I have a lot of free time lately. I'll see which ones I can find.

Edit - Sent what links I had.

LilyElizabeth · July 19, 2011

An idea that I just had was to create a 16 player balanced setup and then switch out roles as needed for each new game. It's easy to add or subtract numbers of players, keeping the ratios in place.

Did that make sense?

Maybe somebody who is good at balance *smiles at DPR* could create such a setup for us.

Hybrid · July 20, 2011

Awesome thread.

To the experienced mods out there, what are your thoughts on replacing vs modkilling? I tend to lean towards the latter because I feel that replacing breaks continuity.

ed2funy · July 20, 2011

I think replacing is better because if a player isn't active and you modkill them (or worse, they do something stupid), it ruins it for the other players.

If it's a simple inactivity issue, a straight swap.

If it's an issue where a player revealed info or broke rules that will effect the game...well, replace and steps to fix it to keep the game going is good, imo.

Kivam · July 20, 2011

To start, when I was talking with Lily the other day, I realized that too many mods are starting with a theme, and building a game around that.

My thought is that this is reversed. To me, it's kind of like building a house to accommodate the interior decoration you want. In the end, it may look pretty, but how much of the structure did you compromise to do that? Will the house stand up in the storm...you know?

I agree. I've done that a time or two - I did it for the Avatar game, and I'm doing it for the Game of Thrones setup I've been working on. But I've also modded enough games to know how to do that without compromising the balance. And if it can't be balanced, you have to scrap the theme. My opinion is that custom building games to match themes is doable - but it's not something that new mods (or any mods who still struggle with balance issues) should try, and until you're comfortable enough with your game setups not to need a consultant for balance (and your players prove that confidence right by not complaining about balance after your games :biggrin: ) you should stay away from it.

I lay out the game in a very simple way: I list the mafia at the top, any 3rd parties in the middle, and the town under that.

Mafia

Mafia

Mafia

Serial Killer - 1 shot

Town - Cop

Town - Doc

Town

Town

Town

Town

Town

Town

Then I define exactly what each players win condition is.

Mafia - You win when you equal or outnumber the town.

Vigilante - You win if you are among the last three players in the game.

Town - You win when you lynch all of the mafia.

100% agree with this approach

Sedai · July 20, 2011

@Hybrid IMO replace for activity, and mod kill for any other reason

@Kiv, I agree that you can build a game around a theme, but I think it should always be checked for balance by an outsider. The reason being is you may be close to the theme and miss the little nuances that would add up to tilt the game for one side. Thanks fir the help btw.

Kathleen · July 20, 2011

I've never had to mod kill, but I have to go with jack here. If its inactivity I replace, if its a rule break (game rules or DM rules) I would mod kill. If nothing else it would shock the players who were left in the game and make sure they watch their actions. Depending on what rule they break a warning may come before a mod kill but it depends on what the rule was that was broken.

Kivam · July 20, 2011

Themes:

In my opinion, general themes are the best. The mafia against the town, Werwolves against the village, Vampire Hunters against the vampires, etc. This works because everyone knows the source material. It also works because to use a well known theme (Transformers...or whatever) it is inevitable that metagaming will take over your game.

So, you are dealing with two problems.

1. Not everyone has seen the Transformers, they don't know the material, and the names and actions of the characters are going to be confusing, and frustrating.

2. The players that do know the source material will inevitably drag that material into the game (Optimus has to be a good guy, Megatron has to be a bad guy). The problem with this is, it severely limits how a player might get creative with a role, and how a player might hide that they are that role.

If you do use a theme, keep it simple, and consider not using characters from the story ( so Autobots vs. Decepticons is not too much for someone to understand, and no one gets saddled with having to act like Optimus or Megatron ).

Known characters and requiring knowledge of the source material are the two biggest problems with themed games. Personally, I deal with that in one way: outlaw character reveals. The character names are there for flavor, to make the game and story more fun - not to replace scum hunting. So anyone who reveals or even hints at a character in my games gets modkilled. If you want to claim you're The Flying Pumpkin That Shoots Laser Beams Out Of It's Ass or any other role you want to make up, you can - you just can't argue that it fits your character, or that you must be town because Optimus has to be in the game and has to be town

Kivam · July 20, 2011

Just de-roled five players in my setup so it should be more normal now. Could still use someone to look it over though just so no one goes SMC on me.

I find that a lot of my setup work ends up being pruning and simplification. I put all my ideas in and then have to take a ton of them out.

bwahahahaha

Kivam · July 20, 2011

Awesome thread.

To the experienced mods out there, what are your thoughts on replacing vs modkilling? I tend to lean towards the latter because I feel that replacing breaks continuity.

For inactivity, I replace if possible - otherwise, it screws up the balance (even if the player was vanilla, it means one less townie. If the player was roled, modkill is even worse for the balance).

For rules violations, modkill, always.

Hybrid · July 20, 2011

Makes sense.

I would absolutely modkill for rules violations.

I was thinking more of a scenario where a player had to pull out when the game was well underway. It's tough for the replacement because they might be forced to justify their predecessor's actions, but I agree that game balance is more important.

Verbal32 · July 20, 2011

Hybrid, good to see you posting in here. ;-)

and until you're comfortable enough with your game setups not to need a consultant for balance (and your players prove that confidence right by not complaining about balance after your games ) you should stay away from it.

We should just start calling this the SMC Effect.

Known characters and requiring knowledge of the source material are the two biggest problems with themed games. Personally, I deal with that in one way: outlaw character reveals. The character names are there for flavor, to make the game and story more fun - not to replace scum hunting. So anyone who reveals or even hints at a character in my games gets modkilled. If you want to claim you're The Flying Pumpkin That Shoots Laser Beams Out Of It's Ass or any other role you want to make up, you can - you just can't argue that it fits your character, or that you must be town because Optimus has to be in the game and has to be town

Another way would be to specifically state that characters are not necessarily aligned how you would expect. I did that in my X-Men game, and it stopped Dragon from being lynched simply because he revealed as Magneto. Granted, he was scum (hehe), but it made scumhunting the key and not character name. I guess either way would work, but I used that way because I was changing the story anyway to have more fun with it.

Hybrid · July 20, 2011

Hybrid, good to see you posting in here. ;-)

Thanks. It's good to be back.

I was busy with school and frankly a bit uninterested in mafia for a while, but then summer rolled around and I realized I wanted to play again. :biggrin:

How to setup and mod a game:

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