Egwene al'Vere = Latra Posae reborn

[Cat-Sister]

Is Egwene al'Vere, contradictor to Rand al'Thor's every action, the yin to his yan, actually Latra Posae-Lews Therin Telamon's contradicting balance?

[Elan Tedronai]

i don't think so. Both LTT and LP had their seperate plans for the sealing

 

whereas both rand and egwene currently have no plan on how to seal the bore. Rand is relying on min on what to do after he breaks the seals whereas egwene would rather plan first with rand before he breaks the seals.

[chinnma]

I don't think LP was of Menetheren descent, as Egewene is, so I find that unlikely.

[The Desert Pea]

I don't think LP was of Menetheren descent, as Egewene is, so I find that unlikely.

That has absolutely nothing to do with which body a soul would be reborn in.

[Cat-Sister]

I don't think LP was of Menetheren descent, as Egewene is, so I find that unlikely.

That has absolutely nothing to do with which body a soul would be reborn in.

 

...exactly..Lews Therin wasn't of Aiel descent (he was described as dark eyed, etc...) but Rand is of Aiel blood

[chinnma]

True I suppose, but I still think its unlikely. If that were the case, we should have more info on LP in order for the paralell to be apparent. I also havent seen any indication of female channelers (or any channelers aside from LTT for that matter) being reborn, just heroes of the horn.

 

So, good point, but I still find it unlikely.

[Ashandarei]

Is Egwene al'Vere, contradictor to Rand al'Thor's every action, the yin to his yan, actually Latra Posae-Lews Therin Telamon's contradicting balance?

 

Latra actually had another decent plan to deal with the DO, to use the Choedan Kal to deal with his forces and erect a barrier around SG etc whereas Egwene is just stubbornly set against Rand's idea without an alternate constructive option and without even considering why Rand might say so. Perrin understands why the seals need to be broken within moments of considering the plan to break the seals using some common sense, clear the seals out of the way first so as not to leave a weakness in the wall that will constitute the DO's prison. If a "common country lout" like him can understand, one would hope the Amyrlin Seat could too.

 

Finally, the allies Egwene is gathering to sway Rand's opinion aren't even fully with her- Darlin wants to be careful but is willing to listen to both sides, Perrin's obviously with Rand, and the rest will probably fall like dominoes under Rand's ta'veren-ness in addition to listening to common sense when he explains why. Latra on the other hand had a 100% loyal support base with every single female AS standing against LT. This ties back into my earlier points- her supporters were so loyal and so against LT because Latra understood and showed them why/how he'd seal the Bore and because Latra had something she actually wanted to do instead.

 

So to summarize:

1) Latra actually had another decent plan. (Egwene doesn't.)

2) She understood why LT wanted to do what he did when she opposed him. (Egwene doesn't.)

3) Her supporters/adherents were 100% loyal to her and set against LT's plan. (Egwene's aren't.)

 

So it's hard to really see Egwene as the yin to Rand's yang since she neither understands him nor can oppose him effectively. That being said, you do bring up an interesting point. Maybe Eg will wisen up in AMoL and get off her high horse as well as actually use her brain and thereby might even come up with a way to do what Rand suggests better, an improvement to his plan, or do it differently instead of blindly opposing him. I could see her being the 3rd Age Latra a lot more then.

 

P.S. Any criticism in this post is directed solely at Eg not you Cat-Sister. Don't mean to come off aggressive and such.

[Vermillion]

Is Egwene al'Vere, contradictor to Rand al'Thor's every action, the yin to his yan, actually Latra Posae-Lews Therin Telamon's contradicting balance?

 

Latra actually had another decent plan to deal with the DO, to use the Choedan Kal to deal with his forces and erect a barrier around SG etc whereas Egwene is just stubbornly set against Rand's idea without an alternate constructive option and without even considering why Rand might say so. Perrin understands why the seals need to be broken within moments of considering the plan to break the seals using some common sense, clear the seals out of the way first so as not to leave a weakness in the wall that will constitute the DO's prison. If a "common country lout" like him can understand, one would hope the Amyrlin Seat could too.

 

Finally, the allies Egwene is gathering to sway Rand's opinion aren't even fully with her- Darlin wants to be careful but is willing to listen to both sides, Perrin's obviously with Rand, and the rest will probably fall like dominoes under Rand's ta'veren-ness in addition to listening to common sense when he explains why. Latra on the other hand had a 100% loyal support base with every single female AS standing against LT. This ties back into my earlier points- her supporters were so loyal and so against LT because Latra understood and showed them why/how he'd seal the Bore and because Latra had something she actually wanted to do instead.

 

So to summarize:

1) Latra actually had another decent plan. (Egwene doesn't.)

2) She understood why LT wanted to do what he did when she opposed him. (Egwene doesn't.)

3) Her supporters/adherents were 100% loyal to her and set against LT's plan. (Egwene's aren't.)

 

So it's hard to really see Egwene as the yin to Rand's yang since she neither understands him nor can oppose him effectively. That being said, you do bring up an interesting point. Maybe Eg will wisen up in AMoL and get off her high horse as well as actually use her brain and thereby might even come up with a way to do what Rand suggests better, an improvement to his plan, or do it differently instead of blindly opposing him. I could see her being the 3rd Age Latra a lot more then.

 

P.S. Any criticism in this post is directed solely at Eg not you Cat-Sister. Don't mean to come off aggressive and such.

 

Part of Perrin's understanding is that he's a blacksmith and used his blacksmith sense with it. There is no clear logic that you would need to break the current seals to reseal in the world of magic.

[bjsm]

More significantly, Rand's plan consists of "break the seals and see what happens." One can understand and sympathize with leeriness of this plan--at the very least it would be a good idea to have some sort of plan for what happens after the seals are broken. If Rand had such a plan, I doubt Egwene would be opposed to his impulses. But he doesn't. It does not seem that breaking the seals needs to happen immediately (the Dark One is not about to break free tomorrow), just relatively soon, so taking time to plan things out seems like the wise decision, not the foolish one.

[Xader]

If a "common country lout" like him can understand, one would hope the Amyrlin Seat could too.

 

Except that the Amyrlin in also a "country lout", albeit one without the knowledge of structural integrity that Perrin, a blacksmith, has.

[Cutlass]

Egwene is very likely the reborn Lattra Possae - and with a little time and effort she can possibly bring the AS around, she does however need time to clean up the mess the white tower has made of it's self over the last few generations.

 

As far as dealing with the threat at hand Egwene dosn't know that Rand hasn't got a plan - he told her to be ready in 30 days and has had no contact (on-screen) with her since. Egwene is just being stubbron because she dosen't have control (over the situation, over Rand, over the hall of the tower - pick one, or all three). I can understand her position, and even her reaction (I'm not an Egwene hater). Aes Sedai actions over the last 1000 years or so haven't been exactly awe inspiring (with the exceptions of a few stand out sisters) in fact they have diminshed their standing considerably, they have isloated themselves, and closed their minds to alternative paths (wouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that IF there were people living in the waste, some of them could potentially channel, or take for granted that just because soemone is stronger in the power means that they are right and everyone else should sit down & shut up! among other things that they just "have always done it this way") I also don't think Rand (as Zen as he currently is) is closed minded about the situation... If Egwene and the AS had an alternate solution I am sure he would hear them out - but I wouldn't hold my breath that they come up with soemthing.

 

Rand is approaching the situation with a proactive "I'm going to fix this problem" attitude - if Egwene wasn't such a bitch about doing things "with" other people instead of making them do what she wants, they could put their minds togeather & make a plan. Nyneve started out the same way in the early books and learned that she wasn't the untimate authority on everything, she shaped into one of the best characters in the books - I think as Egwene ages a little she will learn those same lessons (or heres hoping). Rand has based his paln (as faulty as it could potentially be) on his prior knowledge of Egwene & I don't blame Rand for not giving her any more information then he has - with Lews Therrins intellect and a little deductive reasoning, he would have NO reason to think that the Aes Sedai would be able to deal with sealing the DO's prision (they had 3000 years to work out a solution and came up with - "wow, lets hope he dosn't want to break free, eh!")

 

Rand's plan, letting the AS gather the nations for him - is bang on - at this stage it is about what they (as a group) are capable of. too much division among themselvs, too much "high-n-mighty holier-then-thou" attitude to assume that they could succeed in anything more important then gathering the nations - and don't get me worng that is quite a feat.

 

I think the forsaken had it right - the Aes Sedai are half trained childern - I would hold them akin to a moden day teenager - fully capable of doing the right thing just not seasoned enough to make the right choices consistantly (again there are individual exclusions for some)

 

Sorry about ranting "off topic" I'm just in the middle of my re-read of the series for aMoL and the Aes Sedai bungling things are bugging me!

 

 

 

[Mandro]

 

Part of Perrin's understanding is that he's a blacksmith and used his blacksmith sense with it. There is no clear logic that you would need to break the current seals to reseal in the world of magic.

 

Why Egwene should just shut up.

 

She doesn't have a series of prophecies that involve her being the central player in the last battle that have survived for however many thousands of years.

 

"But I'm Amyrlin." to which rand should respond, "Funny thing! So am I!"

[Aliriel]

"But I'm Amyrlin." to which rand should respond, "Funny thing! So am I!"

 

To be a little perdantic on terminology (and please feel free into rip into this as sometimes I do need to be told when to shut up about things like this), LTT was never "Amyrilin", he was "First Amongst the Servants" and wore the Ring of Tamyrilin(sp).

Basically the two titles amount to the same thing but they are the two correct terms for the different ages.

 

A.

[FarShainMael]

True, but they're functionally equivalent, and in a verbal exchange a quick snappy 'so am I' is better than a long explanation (which can be given later).

[randsc]

I can't believe I am about to write this, but...

 

...I think comparing her to Latra is a little unfair to Egwene.

 

I see above that some people think that Latra is better than Egwene, because Latra had a plan, whereas Egwene does not. And it is true that it is inexcusable for Egwene to not be devoting the resources at her disposal, in the form of the Browns and Whites, to come up with a plan if she opposes Rand's.

 

But what Latra did was worse. You could argue that her initial plan was every bit as dangerous as LTT's, but that's not the issue. We know that her plan originally prevailed, and LTT accepted that. We also know that the access keys were then lost, that the sa'angreal themselves were threatened, and likely to be lost at any time. And still, Latra would not budge.

 

Her plan had failed. They did not have the tools they needed to complete it, and faced imminent, total defeat. There was absolutely NO OTHER OPTION to LTT's plan. And still, Latra refused to go along.

 

Egwene, incredibly annoying though she may be (and I would shed no tears if she were stilled and executed), has not reached that point.

 

Yet.

[Muad Cheade]

Lews Therin Telamon had a plan. It worked. It also failed horribly. Latra Posae Decum had a plan.

 

Rand has a plan. We don't know if it will work. It might fail horribly. Egwene doesn't have a plan.

 

That's basically it. LPD denying LTT is probably the single greatest thing that has happened in the WoT world.

 

However, I will address the Egwene basing. Rand is proposing breaking the Seals and giving the Dark One the same amount of power he had in the Age of Legends (and we all know how that went). You don't think that warrants a discussion about it, as Egwene wants? Rand does not know what to do after. He's going to partly release the dark god and then what?

 

Egwene was right in opposing Rand until he comes up with a more thorough plan and Rand was right in using Egwene to gather up the leaders of the world and the opposition.

[randsc]

Latra's plan could well have resulted in the destruction of the universe. The only reason we don't know is because Sammael captured the land where the access keys were before she could try.

 

We also don't know that LTT's plan wouldn't have worked, if the women had cooperated. If, possibly, they were working to improve the plan, rather than hiding under their beds.

 

Very few people on these forums have a problem with Egwene opposing Rand's plan. We have a problem with her opposing Rand's plan while doing NOTHING to come up with a plan of her own, and with devoting the resources that could be instrumental in creating such a plan to her political schemes istead.

 

Egwene has the Browns, the entire Ajah, working on something. Do you remember what that is?

 

Anyway, there are other threads for all of that.

[Cutlass]

I can't believe I am about to write this, but...

 

...I think comparing her to Latra is a little unfair to Egwene.

 

I see above that some people think that Latra is better than Egwene, because Latra had a plan, whereas Egwene does not. And it is true that it is inexcusable for Egwene to not be devoting the resources at her disposal, in the form of the Browns and Whites, to come up with a plan if she opposes Rand's.

 

But what Latra did was worse. You could argue that her initial plan was every bit as dangerous as LTT's, but that's not the issue. We know that her plan originally prevailed, and LTT accepted that. We also know that the access keys were then lost, that the sa'angreal themselves were threatened, and likely to be lost at any time. And still, Latra would not budge.

 

Her plan had failed. They did not have the tools they needed to complete it, and faced imminent, total defeat. There was absolutely NO OTHER OPTION to LTT's plan. And still, Latra refused to go along.

 

Egwene, incredibly annoying though she may be (and I would shed no tears if she were stilled and executed), has not reached that point.

 

Yet.

 

 

uh, so...

 

Egwene, every bit as stubbron as a person can get MUST do things her way,

 

Latra, every bit as stubbron as a person can get MUST do things her way

 

sounds like one & the same to me

[randsc]

But Egwene hasn't taken it as far, yet. She still has the possibility of redemption.

[Ananta]

More significantly, Rand's plan consists of "break the seals and see what happens." One can understand and sympathize with leeriness of this plan--at the very least it would be a good idea to have some sort of plan for what happens after the seals are broken. If Rand had such a plan, I doubt Egwene would be opposed to his impulses. But he doesn't. It does not seem that breaking the seals needs to happen immediately (the Dark One is not about to break free tomorrow), just relatively soon, so taking time to plan things out seems like the wise decision, not the foolish one.

 

We have to remember that the seals weren't always there. During the AOL, DO's prison was open for over 100 years and he didn't break free or anything D:

 

So he should have some time to set things right even if things go awry after the breaking.

[archon87]

Hello,

 

I understand what you are trying to say about Rand not having a plan after the breaking of the seals, and Egwene opposing him without any seeming rational thought.

You are all forgetting the main reasons why Rand wants to break the seals in the first place.

 

The Dark One is breaking them whether they like it or not...

 

Rand is trying to meet the dark one on his own terms, rather than waiting for the dark one to free himself and catch the rest of the world with its pants around

its ankles. Rand is also giving the white tower and everyone else who matters a chance to think of something to do when the seals are broken. It's not his fault if

Egwene and the rest of the Aes Sedai can't stop with there politics and intrigue long enough to come up with anything worth merit. One other thing, Rand isn't

trying to accomplish what LTT did, Rand is trying to DESTROY the Dark One. As such, I think Rand does have a plan by treating this as just another battle just with

higher stakes involved, the difference being instead of trudging through the miles of the blight, not to mention the blasted lands(where it would be next to impossible

to sustain an army of any size) he is instead going to transport a massive host via skimming or traveling right to the slopes of SG. What he plans to do when he gets

there is probably going to hinge on what Mat Cauthon suggests along with the rest of the Great Captains. Perrin and the Wolves will probably attack from the wolf dream.

 

The only thing I can't speculate on is what rand is going to do about the Black Tower. I speculate that Mazrim Taim is probably Demandred in disguise because of the

previous references made to Moridin about having a great army, the only place I could think of that has the potential for such a thing is the Black Tower.

 

I think these are pretty important things to consider. I would appreciate any feedback given and I hope to discuss this further.

 

Thank You All,

 

Archon

[Muad Cheade]

Latra's plan could well have resulted in the destruction of the universe. The only reason we don't know is because Sammael captured the land where the access keys were before she could try.

LTT's plan could have opened the Dark One's prison completely.

 

We also don't know that LTT's plan wouldn't have worked, if the women had cooperated. If, possibly, they were working to improve the plan, rather than hiding under their beds.

It would've have most likely still worked, but saidin and saidar would have both been tainted and the world would most likely have been destroyed.

 

Very few people on these forums have a problem with Egwene opposing Rand's plan. We have a problem with her opposing Rand's plan while doing NOTHING to come up with a plan of her own, and with devoting the resources that could be instrumental in creating such a plan to her political schemes istead.

The thing about Rand's "plan" is that it is not really a plan. It's a decision. He's going to break the seals, then what? To be honest, we don't know if Egwene has set Aes Sedai to search for answers just like we don't know how the Hall plans to use the Aes Sedai armies. The majority of her PoVs relates to the Mesaana and Gawyn.

 

Egwene has the Browns, the entire Ajah, working on something. Do you remember what that is?

Refresh my memory.

 

 

uh, so...

 

Egwene, every bit as stubbron as a person can get MUST do things her way,

 

Latra, every bit as stubbron as a person can get MUST do things her way

 

sounds like one & the same to me

Is Rand not stubborn as well?

 

Anyways. Egwene is not LPD reborn. There is no evidence to back that up apart from the fact that both were resistant to the Dragon's plans. That be the same as saying Couladin was Janduin reborn because they both took Aiel over the Dragonwall and ravaged Cairhien.

[capuga]

I would like to point out that Latra did not have a plan for actually sealing away the Dark One. Her plan was to use the CK to contain the Dark One and then have time to figure out an actual plan to seal him away for good.

 

This was actually a fairly reasonable course of action (although many believed that trying to use the CK would crack the world like an egg) but it became a moot point once the access keys were lost. At that point LTT's plan was the only viable option. Or I should say the only decent option - you could just wait with your head in the sand while the Dark One breaks free which was the plan she ultimately followed.

 

In response to the original question - I don't think we've seen any evidence that Egwene is Latra reborn, there were plenty of people for and against LTT and there will be plenty of people for and against Rand. No reason that Egwene has to be a specific one of these people.

[sleepinghour]

One of the commenters over at Tor.com pointed out that when Egwene came across the second access key to the female Choedan Kal in T'A'R, she thought it seemed familiar.

 

One thing actually seemed familiar, though she could not say why. Tucked into a corner of one of the cabinets, as if whoever put it there had been uncertain that it was worthy of display, lay the upper half of a broken figure carved from some shiny white stone, a woman holding a crystal sphere in one upraised hand, her face calm and dignified and full of wise authority. Whole, she would have been perhaps a foot tall. But why did she appear so familiar? She almost seemed to call to Egwene to pick her up.

[...]

She did not even want to think of what it might have been made for; testing ter'angreal was dangerous. At least it must be broken beyond danger now. Here, at least. Why did it seem to call me?

--TSR ch 11

@sleepinghour Fri Jan 07

Without revealing names, did RJ's notes say whether any character besides Rand is the reincarnation of someone important?

 

@BrandonSandrson Fri Jan 07

This is a difficult one to answer, as I think even an answer might give some people too much of a clue. I'll consider.

I get the feeling that this is one of the things that RJ wanted to remain uncertain. Some things could be taken as hints (Egwene recognizing the access key, Elayne's looks and name resembling Ilyena's), but we'll probably never find out for sure.

[Muad Cheade]

We have to remember that the seals weren't always there. During the AOL, DO's prison was open for over 100 years and he didn't break free or anything D:

 

So he should have some time to set things right even if things go awry after the breaking.

The prison wasn't open. It was whole. What Lanfear and Beidomon did was to make a breach ("the Bore") into the prison. The seals keep the hole in the prison closed.