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The Davram Bashere darkfriend theory


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#1 CTKShadow

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 11:47 PM

Just about every time Bashere's name comes up, a couple of people make comments about the strong possibility that he is a darkfriend as discussed in other threads.

Now, it's been a good while since I read the books (except tGS), so I'm not arguing that he is or is not a darkfriend (although I know we have some PoVs from him, but hey, we had PoVs from Verin too). But I can't find anywhere (even on google) any actual arguments why people feel so strongly that he may be a very well placed darkfriend.

In any case, to the best of my recollection I had never really suspected Bashere at all, until I started following online again. So can someone either direct me to a discussion or sum up the main points as to why Bashere is possibly a darkfriend?

(Again, I only read the majority of the series twice and neither of those was recently; So for example I hadn't suspected any of the main wise ones until I came online, but after seeing the timing and of certain events it is clear at least one of them must be a DF - is there something similar going on with Bashere?)

#2 Kelven

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 04:21 AM

I don't know if there are any specific discussion threads on whether Bashere is a DF (though if there are, I'd like to read them too :P). I've suspected he could be a DF simply because he's too awesome NOT to turn out to be a bad guy in some plot twist.

#3 FarShainMael

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 10:30 AM

Some time ago I put together some thoughts about Bashere. There follows a combination of three posts I made; hope they're not too confusing!


Why do I think Bashere might be a DF? There are a number of pointers, especially if - as seems likely - Taim is a DF:

1) Firstly, there's Min's Viewing of DB:

"And there's something...dark...in the images I saw around Lord Davram." CoT Ch24.

2) The WO dreams, recounted by Egwene to Rand:

"Melaine and Amys dreamed of a man standing by your side with a dagger to your throat, but you did not see him. "

This, of course, could apply to anyone closely associated with Rand. Including Taim himself, except that he is not in Rand's immediate vicinity much these days.

3) The incident where Bashere claims not to recognise Taim, and Taim says it's because he shaved off his beard, seems very unlikely, to me. As I've said earlier, you can usually recognise someone by his eyes - and his gait.

4) A shared attitude to saidin, considering weapons pointless to a channeller. See Bashere in LoC Ch1, when he throws a dagger at Rand, who stops it with saidin, and DB says 'see? you don't need to learn the sword.' See also Taim in LoC tells Rand he sent the Master of the Sword away because he thinks swords are a waste of time, and Rand orders him to bring the man back and resume training.

5) The note Bashere says was found in the thieves' pockets after the attempted theft from his tent. As I mentioned earlier, in CoT Ch24, Bashere tells Rand about the attack. He says that one of the thieves was 'carrying a note I could swear I wrote myself if I didn't know better. An order to carry away 'certain items'.' That could be a piece of misdirection; perhaps he did write it himself, and is anticipating anyone identifying it as being in his hand.

None of these is anywhere near strong enough to be called evidence, not even Min's viewing. However, taken as a group, they were enough to make me keep a very close eye on DB.



Later, I added this:

CoT Prologue: Deira tells Bashere that she surprised two men ransacking their tent and fought them off, receiving a knife wound in the process, for which she is being treated while they talk (ie listeners present). The two thieves were later found dead, killed almost professionally, so they cannot be made to talk.

Then, later in Ch24, Bashere tells Rand about the attack. Now here's an interesting bit.. Bashere says that one of the thieves was 'carrying a note I could swear I wrote myself if I didn't know better. An order to carry away 'certain items'.' That note wasn't mentioned earlier AFAIK.. if there was one, perhaps Bashere did write it!


And this:

I've had a read through both DB's PoVs in tPoD and CoT, and they are as ambiguous as Min's viewing suggests.

tPoD Ch23/24:

Bashere tried to dissuade Rand from pressing the attack to Ebou Dar at the end of Ch23. The attack goes ahead. DB speaks angrily with Rochaid, apparently for being slow to attack damane, but then he would - he's losing soldiers. He muses to himself that 'today had been costly' and the comment about not wanting 'that sort of man wqndering about loose' may mean channellers, or deserters/potential renegades.

The Forsaken aren't exactly bosom pals, and neither would DFs be, I think!

CoT prologue:

DB is musing about Tenobia wanting his head for 'treason twice over' and calling it a 'neat and thorny problem'. He doesn't seem unduly worried. Odd, that - she's his niece FHS!

When he realises his tent has been attacked, he runs there. Seeing his wife, he notes that 'he knew she would die one day - they both would'. They joke with each other about the poor standard of servants they have. Bashere leaves the tent while Deira is being stitched, and muses that he 'had been expecting this, or something like this, for a long time'.

No doubt this would be because he's expecting an attempt to steal the seal - though why, when surely no-one knows he has it - but is this because he has given orders for it to be stolen, to remove it from Rand, or to bolster his own credibility?

The thieves are found, having been killed by a stab to the back of the head with a narrow blade. I don't think DB had time to do that himself, FWIW - if he was responsible, it's quite likely that he had a third man out there to do the job. He's certainly ready to kill the thieves - 'murder on his face' - but then he would be, whether for attacking his wife or to make sure they're silenced. Or, possibly, both.

It's interesting that that was described as murder 'on his face' rather than 'in his heart'.

His closing remark is curious. He whispers to Tumad (one of Taim's guards in LoC Ch2) to find 'the man who came to him yesterday', to tell him DB agreed, but 'there will be a few more than we talked about'.

In both tPoD and CoT, all very ambiguous.. but then it would be, wouldn't it?

One way or another though, it seems we will lose Bashere (see Min's Viewing of Perrin and the broken crown); but whether that is for or against the Light remains to be seen.


BTW, I've just done a search on Bashere, and the possibility of his being a DF has been suggested by others more than a few times. So has the possibility of fake seals.

Edited by FarShainMael, 14 September 2010 - 10:43 AM.

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#4 Demiandre

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 10:43 AM

The last comment about the man coming to him the day before, is assumed to be Logain. He approached Bashere to find Rand.

I don't think he is a Darkfriend. Not enough evidence...
"Il n'y a pas de Salut sans Destruction, pas d'Espoir avant la Mort" Le Cycle de Karaethon
"When the Wolf King carries the hammer, thus are the final days known. When the fox marries the raven, and the trumpets of battle are blown" The Karaethon Cycle

La Pierre de Tear / The french WoT encyclopedia

Well the 3 ta'veren would make a great set of pirates: peg leg, hook hand, and eye patch


#5 FarShainMael

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 10:46 AM

You're a Pink Floyd fan, I see! Like my OH! :)


Assumed, yes..

Edited by FarShainMael, 14 September 2010 - 10:48 AM.

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#6 Demiandre

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 11:12 AM

And I probably go to the thirtiest anniversary Concert of The Wall by Roger Waters in Bercy (Paris) on May 30th 2010!^^
"Il n'y a pas de Salut sans Destruction, pas d'Espoir avant la Mort" Le Cycle de Karaethon
"When the Wolf King carries the hammer, thus are the final days known. When the fox marries the raven, and the trumpets of battle are blown" The Karaethon Cycle

La Pierre de Tear / The french WoT encyclopedia

Well the 3 ta'veren would make a great set of pirates: peg leg, hook hand, and eye patch


#7 Silver

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 11:19 AM

Nice theory, only a couple points I have an issue with.


3) The incident where Bashere claims not to recognise Taim, and Taim says it's because he shaved off his beard, seems very unlikely, to me. As I've said earlier, you can usually recognise someone by his eyes - and his gait.


Is there a reason to believe they've ever seen each other? Most likely, they've only heard descriptions of the other.

DB is musing about Tenobia wanting his head for 'treason twice over' and calling it a 'neat and thorny problem'. He doesn't seem unduly worried. Odd, that - she's his niece FHS!


He doesn't get phased by male channelers, or having people trying to murder him. Why should he be worried about Tenobia? She's a relative, and one he knows very well, and more likely to be lenient after a bit of a talk.


When he realises his tent has been attacked, he runs there. Seeing his wife, he notes that 'he knew she would die one day - they both would'. They joke with each other about the poor standard of servants they have. Bashere leaves the tent while Deira is being stitched, and muses that he 'had been expecting this, or something like this, for a long time'.

No doubt this would be because he's expecting an attempt to steal the seal - though why, when surely no-one knows he has it - but is this because he has given orders for it to be stolen, to remove it from Rand, or to bolster his own credibility?


I've always thought the "expecting this' referred to people trying to kill him/his family. He is a Great General and really close to Rand to boot.
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#8 Cut Strand

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 02:16 PM

1) Firstly, there's Min's Viewing of DB:
"And there's something...dark...in the images I saw around Lord Davram." CoT Ch24.



2) The WO dreams, recounted by Egwene to Rand:
"Melaine and Amys dreamed of a man standing by your side with a dagger to your throat, but you did not see him. "

This, of course, could apply to anyone closely associated with Rand. Including Taim himself, except that he is not in Rand's immediate vicinity much these days.

Actually, this is the grayman that Rand trapped in air and Taim sent fire through.

3) The incident where Bashere claims not to recognise Taim, and Taim says it's because he shaved off his beard, seems very unlikely, to me. As I've said earlier, you can usually recognise someone by his eyes - and his gait.

As Silver said, is there any reason to think they saw each other? Taim shaved, and Saldaeans don't shave smooth normally.

4) A shared attitude to saidin, considering weapons pointless to a channeller. See Bashere in LoC Ch1, when he throws a dagger at Rand, who stops it with saidin, and DB says 'see? you don't need to learn the sword.' See also Taim in LoC tells Rand he sent the Master of the Sword away because he thinks swords are a waste of time, and Rand orders him to bring the man back and resume training.

Bashere merely is of the opinion that if it comes to a situation where Rand needs to use a sword, the world is already FUBAR. But Bashere also thinks like a war general, and not a paranoid king.

5) The note Bashere says was found in the thieves' pockets after the attempted theft from his tent. As I mentioned earlier, in CoT Ch24, Bashere tells Rand about the attack. He says that one of the thieves was 'carrying a note I could swear I wrote myself if I didn't know better. An order to carry away 'certain items'.' That could be a piece of misdirection; perhaps he did write it himself, and is anticipating anyone identifying it as being in his hand.

If Bashere were a bad guy, he could disappear the items and not cause a ruckus. The only reason to stage a theft is if the items in question were going to be requested soon.

CoT Prologue: Deira tells Bashere that she surprised two men ransacking their tent and fought them off, receiving a knife wound in the process, for which she is being treated while they talk (ie listeners present). The two thieves were later found dead, killed almost professionally, so they cannot be made to talk.

How is this evidence? Some bad guy used two flunkies to do something, then killed them. That seems like Evil Guy Standard Operating Procedure. In fact, I would be more surprised if the evil guy DIDN'T kill the flunkies.

Then, later in Ch24, Bashere tells Rand about the attack. Now here's an interesting bit.. Bashere says that one of the thieves was 'carrying a note I could swear I wrote myself if I didn't know better. An order to carry away 'certain items'.' That note wasn't mentioned earlier AFAIK.. if there was one, perhaps Bashere did write it!

Still doesn't address the fact that if Bashere wanted the items disappeared he could've arranged for it to happen without causing a ruckus. The fact that his wife was injured makes the theft more noticeable, the best thefts leave the victim unaware of the theft entirely.


tPoD Ch23/24:

Bashere tried to dissuade Rand from pressing the attack to Ebou Dar at the end of Ch23. The attack goes ahead. DB speaks angrily with Rochaid, apparently for being slow to attack damane, but then he would - he's losing soldiers. He muses to himself that 'today had been costly' and the comment about not wanting 'that sort of man wqndering about loose' may mean channellers, or deserters/potential renegades.

Yeah, Bashere wanted to retreat because (1) Rand was injured, (2) the Asha'man were freaking out (because saidin was acting hinky), and (3) Rand was acting irrational (which is bad for a war leader that can drop lightning from the sky, especially when it has already landed on their own side!).

CoT prologue:

DB is musing about Tenobia wanting his head for 'treason twice over' and calling it a 'neat and thorny problem'. He doesn't seem unduly worried. Odd, that - she's his niece FHS!

Well, Bashere did defect to the Dragon Reborn and he didn't take the opportunity to kill Taim, that is 2 betrayals right there.

When he realises his tent has been attacked, he runs there. Seeing his wife, he notes that 'he knew she would die one day - they both would'. They joke with each other about the poor standard of servants they have. Bashere leaves the tent while Deira is being stitched, and muses that he 'had been expecting this, or something like this, for a long time'.

No doubt this would be because he's expecting an attempt to steal the seal - though why, when surely no-one knows he has it - but is this because he has given orders for it to be stolen, to remove it from Rand, or to bolster his own credibility?

The thieves are found, having been killed by a stab to the back of the head with a narrow blade. I don't think DB had time to do that himself, FWIW - if he was responsible, it's quite likely that he had a third man out there to do the job. He's certainly ready to kill the thieves - 'murder on his face' - but then he would be, whether for attacking his wife or to make sure they're silenced. Or, possibly, both.

It's interesting that that was described as murder 'on his face' rather than 'in his heart'.

His closing remark is curious. He whispers to Tumad (one of Taim's guards in LoC Ch2) to find 'the man who came to him yesterday', to tell him DB agreed, but 'there will be a few more than we talked about'.

In both tPoD and CoT, all very ambiguous.. but then it would be, wouldn't it?

One way or another though, it seems we will lose Bashere (see Min's Viewing of Perrin and the broken crown); but whether that is for or against the Light remains to be seen.

BTW, I've just done a search on Bashere, and the possibility of his being a DF has been suggested by others more than a few times. So has the possibility of fake seals.

It is totally reasonable to expect an attempted theft on the seal.

And Bashere was being subtle and cautious when telling Tumad that he wanted more Asha'man on hand. The man he met with could've been Logain. Logain's prologue bit about "wanting to go recruit" is before Bashere's bit with Tumad.

For those that don't recall (and don't feel like looking it up), Tumad is one of Bashere's lieutenants. He is not a male channeler. And he died in the trolloc attack on Algarin Pendaloan's manor.

#9 Crael123

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 02:24 PM

im curious to see how this one plays out

#10 CTKShadow

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 03:31 PM

Thanks for the explanation :)

#11 FarShainMael

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 12:35 AM

im curious to see how this one plays out


So am I ;)

Well, there you have it, CTKS. Both sides of the story. Make of them what you will.
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#12 FarShainMael

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 12:37 AM

And I probably go to the thirtiest anniversary Concert of The Wall by Roger Waters in Bercy (Paris) on May 30th 2010!^^


Of course you did!!

*We don't need no ed-u-cay-shun...* ;)
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#13 Demiandre

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 02:44 AM

*We don't need no ed-u-cay-shun...*

I love to play it with my bass guitar, with a heavy bass setting. It drums in my head

Just a question : why "you did"? It's in the future...

Well, Bashere did defect to the Dragon Reborn and he didn't take the opportunity to kill Taim, that is 2 betrayals right there.

I agree there. Also, He isn't very worried, as he suspect she will swear fealty to Rand.
"Il n'y a pas de Salut sans Destruction, pas d'Espoir avant la Mort" Le Cycle de Karaethon
"When the Wolf King carries the hammer, thus are the final days known. When the fox marries the raven, and the trumpets of battle are blown" The Karaethon Cycle

La Pierre de Tear / The french WoT encyclopedia

Well the 3 ta'veren would make a great set of pirates: peg leg, hook hand, and eye patch


#14 FarShainMael

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 02:47 AM

The date you've given is May 30, is that wrong then?
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#15 Demiandre

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 03:16 AM

No, the date is correct; it's the year that isn't... ;) I wanted to say May 30th 2011 :D

Would have been incoherent if 2010. "probably", if I went there, is anachronic

Edited by Demiandre, 15 September 2010 - 03:18 AM.

"Il n'y a pas de Salut sans Destruction, pas d'Espoir avant la Mort" Le Cycle de Karaethon
"When the Wolf King carries the hammer, thus are the final days known. When the fox marries the raven, and the trumpets of battle are blown" The Karaethon Cycle

La Pierre de Tear / The french WoT encyclopedia

Well the 3 ta'veren would make a great set of pirates: peg leg, hook hand, and eye patch


#16 FarShainMael

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 08:03 AM

Well, I hope you enjoy it, anyway!
The Golden Crane flies for Tarmon Gai'don!

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#17 Demiandre

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 08:50 AM

Of course I will! ;)
"Il n'y a pas de Salut sans Destruction, pas d'Espoir avant la Mort" Le Cycle de Karaethon
"When the Wolf King carries the hammer, thus are the final days known. When the fox marries the raven, and the trumpets of battle are blown" The Karaethon Cycle

La Pierre de Tear / The french WoT encyclopedia

Well the 3 ta'veren would make a great set of pirates: peg leg, hook hand, and eye patch


#18 GYLD

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 09:48 AM

This is hardly evidence, but I was reading (well, listening) to The Path of Daggers last night and I noticed Bashere's Marshal General baton is described as having a wolf headed pommel. Which seems to scream that Perrin is going to end up replacing Bashere one way or another. At least that's what I gathered.

#19 Demiandre

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 09:55 AM

Well, if Bashere dies, and Tenobia as well, Perrin is next in line for the Kingdom. Which seems very likely. But I didn't connected the baton with Perrin. And that is quite obvious...
"Il n'y a pas de Salut sans Destruction, pas d'Espoir avant la Mort" Le Cycle de Karaethon
"When the Wolf King carries the hammer, thus are the final days known. When the fox marries the raven, and the trumpets of battle are blown" The Karaethon Cycle

La Pierre de Tear / The french WoT encyclopedia

Well the 3 ta'veren would make a great set of pirates: peg leg, hook hand, and eye patch


#20 FarShainMael

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 10:09 AM

Min's viewing of Perrin in TEotW 15:

'A wolf, and a broken crown, and trees flowering all around him '

The Broken Crown is connected to Saldaea (CoT Prologue)

http://encyclopaedia...t/prologue.html
The Golden Crane flies for Tarmon Gai'don!

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