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Book 9, Winter's Heart.


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#1 chris777

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Posted 18 March 2010 - 10:23 AM

Just for me to put some notes in, ppl to make comments if they want.

(please don't spoil anything about the end, or following books)

#2 chris777

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Posted 18 March 2010 - 10:37 AM

I don't know why I never guessed...or realized this before.  Olver is Gaiden Caine(is that right?).  Birgette's long lost lover that was born before she was ripped out of telendroid(however spelled).

Also can I say still..that since book4 the books have WAY too much detail.  And way too many characters.  I cannot keep them straight, it's INSANE the ammount of names.  And he likes to describe not only how ppl look, how the room looks, what kind of mannerisms each person has, and anything else you can think of.  I feel bad..but most times I skip to the Quotes...Talking parts.  I love the story so far, just wish Jordan could clean it up a bit...books are unnessarily long because of the unneeded detail, and pointless characters.

Also....

Lanfear is back! YA BABY.  They made it pretty obvious that Cyndane is lanfear, but a tad weaker.  Still the strongest female Forsaken tho?!  Damn how strong was she before?  Does this mean there's a chance Moraine comes back?  God I hope so.

Ishmael also back!  And badder ass then ever.  Using the TruePower or w/e...that nobody dares use but doesn't seem to "greatly" effect him. 

One thing I don't get.  They now know Rand has both of the strongest ter'angrel ever.  And said 'once he uses it you will know where he is and go and kill him'.  If that was the case...when him and Asmodean BOTH touched it, and split it's power and wrestled over it.  How did they not feel that, and immediately go check it out then?

What's with the weather?  They 'fix' it, only to just make it the complete opposite.  Is it trying to 'even itself out'?  Or did they mess something up?

And I'm not fully understanding the whole bonding thing.  I've heard them mention removing a bond, or MOVING a bond to another person, while dead or alive.  Why did Elayne and them do it that way, and leave Alana's bond?  I'm guessing that Allana is out cold because of what Elayne did to Rand, but why?  Aes Sedai bond new ppl, why doesn't the first one bonded get knocked out once they bond a second.  If it's because one person BONDS the other..meaning there is a bonder and a bondee..rather then simply each being 'bound' to eachother.  If that's the case, then it shouldn't be possible for Rand and Min to bond...unless the bound is simply a thing that exists between ppl, and not something that someone with the power DOES to someone else?  Does that make sense, or only in my head?

#3 Drekka Mort

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Posted 18 March 2010 - 10:51 AM

One thing I don't get.  They now know Rand has both of the strongest ter'angrel ever.  And said 'once he uses it you will know where he is and go and kill him'.  If that was the case...when him and Asmodean BOTH touched it, and split it's power and wrestled over it.  How did they not feel that, and immediately go check it out then?


Now this is a while ago, but Im pretty sure the ammount channeled between Rand and Asmodean wasnt that great. The memory is hazy though, so not really that sure.

And I'm not fully understanding the whole bonding thing.  I've heard them mention removing a bond, or MOVING a bond to another person, while dead or alive.  Why did Elayne and them do it that way, and leave Alana's bond?  I'm guessing that Allana is out cold because of what Elayne did to Rand, but why?  Aes Sedai bond new ppl, why doesn't the first one bonded get knocked out once they bond a second.  If it's because one person BONDS the other..meaning there is a bonder and a bondee..rather then simply each being 'bound' to eachother.  If that's the case, then it shouldn't be possible for Rand and Min to bond...unless the bound is simply a thing that exists between ppl, and not something that someone with the power DOES to someone else?  Does that make sense, or only in my head?


I understand you, but the reason Rand and Min couldnt just bond normally is that Rand doesnt know the weave for it. Second Warders are possible because thats just the way it is, theres never been any hint at a question about that in the books. Its just one of the mechanics of it. The bond IS something the bonder does to the bondee in a sense, they create a connection. Only the bonder can remove the bond. Once the bond is there they are connected; which end you are at determines the benefits. Also IIRC it was confirmed that a Warder bonded to multiple Aes Sedai only gets the passive effects of one bond. Ie, his healing and stamina are not doubly increased, but he is able to sense any Aes Sedai he is bound to, and any Aes Sedai can Compel the Warder.

Which brings an interesting question to mind. What if Elayne and Aviendha both tried to Compel Rand through their bonds at the same time???

Hope some of that helped chris

#4 chris777

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Posted 18 March 2010 - 11:16 AM

Then how did Min bond to rand, if it's soemthing one does to the other, rather then something that is just simply done.  So in a sense...could say..EGWENE bond Matt to Perrin?  She obviously could if Min was Bonded to Rand by a 3rd party.  And if that's the case, can anyone remove it or only the person who put it there.  So in that case, could only Egwene remove that bond?  And what I was getting at...is...
It logically can be done to anyone, by anyone...otherwise Min is actually BONDED to Elayne?...With that said, why would Allana collapse because someone else, or more then one person, was bonded to the person she was bonded to.  Unless of course I'm completely missing why she's unconcious.  And ALSO...if bonding someone against their will is akin to RAPE...and you can bond someone else to someelse...you should in theory be able to do it against their will!  So you can rape 2ppl at once? =)

#5 Drekka Mort

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Posted 18 March 2010 - 01:58 PM

Basically when the three bonded Rand, Elayne did a weave before bonding Rand, that would duplicate something she did to herself, but on Min. So with that in place Elayne bonds Rand and it automatically was duplicated on Min. I think thats right.

I think it would be possible to bond Mat to Perrin, yes. Whether or not both would get the same from that bond, I dont know.

#6 Dmitri

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Posted 18 March 2010 - 10:24 PM

I don't know why I never guessed...or realized this before.  Olver is Gaiden Caine(is that right?).  Birgette's long lost lover that was born before she was ripped out of telendroid(however spelled).


Not again... :-\

Tim Kington Dayton Signing January 16, 2003

Q:  Is Olver Gaidal Cain?
RJ: No.  I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has.  The timing is wrong.  He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring, though.
Q:  He's too old.
RJ: Yes.  Time in TAR and the real world run at different rates, but it never runs backwards.  You may spend an hour in TAR, and a day has passed when you get back, or you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on Monday.




#7 chris777

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 04:40 AM


I don't know why I never guessed...or realized this before.  Olver is Gaiden Caine(is that right?).  Birgette's long lost lover that was born before she was ripped out of telendroid(however spelled).


Not again... :-\

Tim Kington Dayton Signing January 16, 2003

Q:  Is Olver Gaidal Cain?
RJ: No.  I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has.  The timing is wrong.  He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring, though.
Q:  He's too old.
RJ: Yes.  Time in TAR and the real world run at different rates, but it never runs backwards.  You may spend an hour in TAR, and a day has passed when you get back, or you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on Monday.




Oh haha.  Didn't know it was a big thing.  I thought I figured something out. =/  But why is he too old?  Just as he said time runs differently.  So he was ripped out of TAR to be born, then she was ripped out a little later.  So it could have been 1year after, or 10years in real time.  Technicaly,  w/that said, he could be ANY age...  What am i missing?

#8 Luckers

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 06:43 AM

Gaidal was seen in TAR when Olver would already have been about 9. Time never runs backwards.


#9 Drekka Mort

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 08:59 AM

A good thing to remember with the reborn Hero theories is that a Heroes soul waits in T'A'R between lives. That is the same soul that occupies their body in life, and it can only be in one place at a time. That is why Gaidal cannot be anyone we ever saw before we saw him; the T'A'R Gaidal was the bodiless soul of him, and because Olver was already present in the real world, it outrules Olver being Gaidal or any Hero we ever see in the series. Including any Hero we saw when Mat blew the Horn. Artur Hawkwing, Gaidal, Birgitte, etc were between lives at that time-this is deduced from the fact that they came when the Horn was blown. If/when the Horn is blown again, Birgitte will not be summoned by it, because her soul cannot be in two places at once. If she died though, and THEN it was blown, she would come. Assuming she is still bound to it, of course.

#10 chris777

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 10:05 AM

A good thing to remember with the reborn Hero theories is that a Heroes soul waits in T'A'R between lives. That is the same soul that occupies their body in life, and it can only be in one place at a time. That is why Gaidal cannot be anyone we ever saw before we saw him; the T'A'R Gaidal was the bodiless soul of him, and because Olver was already present in the real world, it outrules Olver being Gaidal or any Hero we ever see in the series. Including any Hero we saw when Mat blew the Horn. Artur Hawkwing, Gaidal, Birgitte, etc were between lives at that time-this is deduced from the fact that they came when the Horn was blown. If/when the Horn is blown again, Birgitte will not be summoned by it, because her soul cannot be in two places at once. If she died though, and THEN it was blown, she would come. Assuming she is still bound to it, of course.


Ah ok.  Well it's all jumbled in my head, I don't remmeber Olver being in the story before we learned Gaidal was reborn.  Otherwise I wouldn't have thought it.  Although thinking about it doesn't matter.  Would only make sense if we never saw Gaidal...even if Birgette said he was JUST taken, could be 10years in the real world, but a moment ago for her.  Regardless, ya, since they went in TAR and seen Gaidal, a year or whenever ago...cant be =/
Anyways...ya I forget again...When do the books start getting good?
I've heard many ppl say Books 1-4 are great...then they get really drab until book 9 i thought?  This book is OK, it's still nothing like 1 and 2.

#11 Luckers

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 09:55 PM

You're mistaking the cycle of rebirth with what happened to Birgitte. Gaidal was not ripped out of the pattern, he was reborn, as a baby. He is at best an infant now.He could not be ten under any circumstances.

What happened to Birgitte was unique, and only happened because she exposed herself by not obeying the Prescripts.

#12 icspots

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Posted 21 March 2010 - 09:26 AM

I don't know why I never guessed...or realized this before.  Olver is Gaiden Caine(is that right?).  Birgette's long lost lover that was born before she was ripped out of telendroid(however spelled).


As previously debunked by other members (and more specifically RJ) Olver is NOT Gaidel.

Also can I say still..that since book4 the books have WAY too much detail.  And way too many characters.  I cannot keep them straight, it's INSANE the ammount of names.  And he likes to describe not only how ppl look, how the room looks, what kind of mannerisms each person has, and anything else you can think of.  I feel bad..but most times I skip to the Quotes...Talking parts.  I love the story so far, just wish Jordan could clean it up a bit...books are unnessarily long because of the unneeded detail, and pointless characters.


Part of the difference after book four is that the plot lines of the major characters split further apart.  Then in order to get progress on all the plotlines in one book the actual time span of the book isn't very long.  So lots is going on but there's not a lot of forward progress.  I think one of the exceptions to that is the end of TGS where it jumps a month in the postlogue.  Still just try to bear with it as the plot lines eventually do come back together.  It also helps that there are several more books available after where you've gotten to so you don't have to wait years between them.

Also....

Lanfear is back! YA BABY.  They made it pretty obvious that Cyndane is lanfear, but a tad weaker.  Still the strongest female Forsaken tho?!  Damn how strong was she before?  Does this mean there's a chance Moraine comes back?  God I hope so.


The consensus is that Lanfear was the strongest it was possible to be for a female.... there's some discussion as to whether or not that was natural or if it were some gift from the 'Finns, but neither has been debunked yet.  As to the rest RAFO.

Ishmael also back!  And badder ass then ever.  Using the TruePower or w/e...that nobody dares use but doesn't seem to "greatly" effect him. 


It effects him just like everyone else.  Actually Ishamael used the True Power quite a bit between the Age of Legends and the present day.  It was confirmed by RJ that the "eyes and mouth into a cavern of fire" as seen in the first several books was actually the result of extensive use of the TP.

One thing I don't get.  They now know Rand has both of the strongest ter'angrel ever.  And said 'once he uses it you will know where he is and go and kill him'.  If that was the case...when him and Asmodean BOTH touched it, and split it's power and wrestled over it.  How did they not feel that, and immediately go check it out then?


When Rand and Asmo fought over the Access Key in Rhuidean that was before the Forsaken received the order to go to it.  As to why they woulnd't have headed straight to it when they felt it at the end of TSR look back on the POV's of several of the Forsaken when they arrived at Shadar Logoth.  Several were terrified of going up against that much power.  Look also at the reaction of the Salidar Aes Sedai.... that might be in the next book but it's not really a spoiler anyway.

What's with the weather?  They 'fix' it, only to just make it the complete opposite.  Is it trying to 'even itself out'?  Or did they mess something up?


It's both just "evening out", and they used the Ter'angreal beyond what it was actually designed to do.  Yes it was made to control the weather, but not on a global scale.

And I'm not fully understanding the whole bonding thing.  I've heard them mention removing a bond, or MOVING a bond to another person, while dead or alive.  Why did Elayne and them do it that way, and leave Alana's bond?  I'm guessing that Allana is out cold because of what Elayne did to Rand, but why?  Aes Sedai bond new ppl, why doesn't the first one bonded get knocked out once they bond a second.  If it's because one person BONDS the other..meaning there is a bonder and a bondee..rather then simply each being 'bound' to eachother.  If that's the case, then it shouldn't be possible for Rand and Min to bond...unless the bound is simply a thing that exists between ppl, and not something that someone with the power DOES to someone else?  Does that make sense, or only in my head?


Yes a bond can be moved from on Aes Sedai to another, but it can't be done by a third party.  To set up what she did Moiraine had to have met up with Myrelle at some point..... actually was Myrelle in Shienar in TGH?  It's for this reason that Nynaeve hasn't just transferred Lan's bond herself.  She can't do it without being in the same place as Myrelle.  So basically Elayne/Avi/Min can't just remove/take Alanna's bond away.  Alanna could choose (when she's with Rand) to release him from his bond and then he'd just be bound to the super girls.

As to Min bonding, etc.  Rand could use the Asha'man developed weave to bond her as a Warder, but Min cannot bond him.  It's not that Elayne used the power to place a bond between Min and Rand.  The weave Elayne used "includes" everyone the weave is placed upon.  Elayne and Avi both placed that weave upon the other plus Min, so that what happened to each one happened to the others.  Thus when Elayne bonded Rand Avi and Min were included in it from her end of the bond.  So there's only one bond with four people (three girls, one Rand) vs. three separate bonds.  Obviously they're not all equal in the bond since Min and Avi can't mask the bond like Elayne can.

#13 Hadilmir

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Posted 21 March 2010 - 12:53 PM

It's not that Elayne used the power to place a bond between Min and Rand.  The weave Elayne used "includes" everyone the weave is placed upon.  Elayne and Avi both placed that weave upon the other plus Min, so that what happened to each one happened to the others.  Thus when Elayne bonded Rand Avi and Min were included in it from her end of the bond.  So there's only one bond with four people (three girls, one Rand) vs. three separate bonds.  Obviously they're not all equal in the bond since Min and Avi can't mask the bond like Elayne can.

No, there are 4 separate knots of emotions in Rand's head. That implies that there are 4 separate bonds. Also, Aviendha successfully masked her bond, while Min and Birgitte couldn't. It has to be something about the ability to channel. Though I wonder what that means for Elyas, since he apparently can mask his bond.

#14 chris777

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 06:40 AM

You're mistaking the cycle of rebirth with what happened to Birgitte. Gaidal was not ripped out of the pattern, he was reborn, as a baby. He is at best an infant now.He could not be ten under any circumstances.

I'm not mistaking the cycle.  You must have misread.  What I was mistaking, and apparently many other ppl did as well...is that Olver wasn't a part of the books until AFTER Birgette said Gaidal was reborn into the real world.  Which is probably what threw people off...and the fact that he's ugly and a womenizer already...Birgette's type.  I'm sure with many it was just an initial, "OMG what if?" But after thinking about it, it's obvious the timeline's don't fit.

It's not that Elayne used the power to place a bond between Min and Rand.  The weave Elayne used "includes" everyone the weave is placed upon.  Elayne and Avi both placed that weave upon the other plus Min, so that what happened to each one happened to the others.  Thus when Elayne bonded Rand Avi and Min were included in it from her end of the bond.  So there's only one bond with four people (three girls, one Rand) vs. three separate bonds.  Obviously they're not all equal in the bond since Min and Avi can't mask the bond like Elayne can.


No, there are 4 separate knots of emotions in Rand's head. That implies that there are 4 separate bonds. Also, Aviendha successfully masked her bond, while Min and Birgitte couldn't. It has to be something about the ability to channel. Though I wonder what that means for Elyas, since he apparently can mask his bond.


I understand the explination for what Elayne did.  I don't get the logic.  If she 'bound' Min to Rand...then that implies it's possible for someone with the power to bind one person to another.  And according to what you are also saying, only the person who did the binding can remove it....So Egwene can bind Perin and Mat, and they would be bound forever unless she removed it.  UNLESS of course you can remove the binding just how Aviendha removed the Gatewave weave.  One strand at a time.  I don't see why it wouldn't be possible.

I digress...

Favor...can someone tell me the exact reading about Mat and the Nine moons chick?  I would google it, but I'm terrified of getting spoiled by something.  She seems like a decent chick, but anyone who's actually OK with how damanes are caged and treated..is not cool.

I must be missing some timeline here....
Book 8 ended with Egwene creating a gateway to the White Tower, for them to start attacking...didn't it?  Now book9 she's talking about the Troublesome Sitters, and Elaida still plotting to kill Alvarian..etc.  No talk of Aes Sedai war?

The consensus is that Lanfear was the strongest it was possible to be for a female.... there's some discussion as to whether or not that was natural or if it were some gift from the 'Finns, but neither has been debunked yet.

I'm sure nobody knows exactly yet but...if Lanfear was supposed to be the absolute strongest a female could be...how close is that to Males?  Like..as strong as an 'average' male.  Or maybe as strong as the weakest Male Forsaken?  Also what's the 'finn gift?  Am i supposed to know of this yet, or what?  Again, i'm afraid to look it up incase of being spoiled.

Logain & Taim...
What's going to happen here?!  I'm pretty pumped to find out.  My guess?  Taim is the mastermind of the attacks on Rand...and Logain will end up as Rands #2, and Taim will become an enemy.  I hope they fight eachother, and Rand doesn't have to kill one.  I wanna know whos stronger!  I'm guessing Taim atm?  Anyways, it's too bad he's a hothead freak...be cool for Rand to have some POWERFUL Male casting allies....soon I imagine.

#15 Majsju

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 07:05 AM

Favor...can someone tell me the exact reading about Mat and the Nine moons chick?  I would google it, but I'm terrified of getting spoiled by something.  She seems like a decent chick, but anyone who's actually OK with how damanes are caged and treated..is not cool.


Do you mean what the finns told Mat?
To marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons! .

I must be missing some timeline here....
Book 8 ended with Egwene creating a gateway to the White Tower, for them to start attacking...didn't it?  Now book9 she's talking about the Troublesome Sitters, and Elaida still plotting to kill Alvarian..etc.  No talk of Aes Sedai war?


Egwene brought her army to start a siege, not immidiatly go to war.


I'm sure nobody knows exactly yet but...if Lanfear was supposed to be the absolute strongest a female could be...how close is that to Males?  Like..as strong as an 'average' male.  Or maybe as strong as the weakest Male Forsaken?  Also what's the 'finn gift?  Am i supposed to know of this yet, or what?  Again, i'm afraid to look it up incase of being spoiled.


Lanfear was stronger than most male channelers, standing just slightly beneath Rand/LTT and Ishamael. As Cyndane she is somewhat weakened, but still stronger than most males.
The "finn gift" is some crazy idea that her strength was a result of the finns enhancing her. An idea that seems to come from a lack of understanding what the finns really are. Or rather, what they are not.



#16 chris777

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 07:21 AM

So the 'fins...are the weird looking ppl who give you fortune/fortelling w/e.  And they have "evil twins", which is what the door was that Mat went through the second time, in Rhudian?  Is there anywhere I can look to see exactly what they told Mat and Rand...and everyone else...i'm curious now.  Mat went through twice right?...the good and evil fins.  Can someone link me to something...i just google'd it and got a buncha "Theory" results, which i'm afraid to click on.
"To marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons!"
Is that all they said regarding it?


#17 Kadere

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 07:47 AM

Well there's this http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/ also this http://13depository.blogspot.com/. The snake like people are the Aelfinn who answer questions truthfully, Mat, Rand, and Moiraine meet them in the Stone. The Eelfinn grant wishes but at a price.

The answers Mat got were:

1. Mat asks if he should go home to his people. They study the air above his head and the woman on the left says, "You must go to Rhuidean."

2. Mat asks, "Why should I?" The woman on the right says, "If you do not go to Rhuidean you will die."

3. Mat asks why he will die and the man replies, "You will have sidestepped the thread of fate, left your fate to drift on the winds of time, and you will be killed by those who do not want that fate fulfilled."

Mat insists on a clear answer and demands to know what fate. The room shakes and the three snake people answer, "To marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons! To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was! To give up half the light of the world to save the world! Go to Rhuidean, son of battles! Go to Rhuidean, trickster! Go, gambler! Go!"

This is all in Chapter 15 "Into the Doorway" of TSR.

In the second doorway to the Eefinn in Rhuidean Mat does this:

Mat asks about the Daughter of the Nine Moons, dying and living again, and giving up half the light of the world, but they ignore his questions. Mat says he wants the holes in his memory filled and they reply, "Done." Confused, Mat continues talking about what he wants. He says he wants to be free of Aes Sedai and the One Power and he wants to be back in Rhuidean. They reply, "Done," then tell him he is foolish for not negotiating a price. They will set the price. Darkness closes on Mat and he cannot breathe.

This is in Chapter 24 "Rhuidean" in TSR. The first wish gets him the memories of dead people, the second gets him his ter'angrael foxhead medallion, and the third returns him back to Rhuidean but because he didn't set a price they hang him from the ashandarei.

When Rand stepped into the doorway in Tear and asked his questions they were these.

1. One question was how to cleanse saidin. The answer was a riddle that Herid Fel says "stated sound principles in both high philosophy and natural philosophy." (TPoD,Ch14).

2. Another question was, "How can I win the Last Battle and survive?" The Aelfinn told him, "The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die." (LoC,Ch26,KoD,Ch18)

We still don't know what his third question and answer were, but we do know they didn't mention Rhuidean to him

We have no idea what Moiraine asked or what her answers were.

#18 chris777

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 09:01 AM

Nice, thanks Kadere.

#19 chris777

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 12:36 PM

AH HAH!

So Taim did order it.  I knew that sneaky power hungry little bastard would.  But the 'dark ashamen' met with moridin and demandred too?!  But both chosen acted like they didn't know what Taim said, and the ashaman thought they did...so the Asha thought Taim was darkfriend...  I doubt Taim is, just too power hungry.  

Was there a reason I missed as to why Rand didn't kill both of them w/the power.  He could have shielded them, and killed them immediately.  Sure other power users, forsaken, would have felt it if they were close...but nothing tells us they are.

It's fun reading through your previously posts...here's something I said when i was reading book6.


Shaido will end up fighting for Illian.

then someone else says

Seems a bit random. Why?

i reply with

Why is that Random, the 2 groups who want to kill Rand the most(maybe minus White Cloaks), combine?  Shaido already approached the white tower to combine forces, Sammael finds out, approaches Shaido, tricks them...etc.  I assume if I was correct you would have answered differently though.

Pretty much called it! =)

I think it was pretty obvious that Taim was the architect behind the assassination attempt.  Just not that whether he did it for power, or because he's a Darkfriend.  I think power only.  
And i think Logain will soon become Rand's right hand man, and prove himself an actual ally rather then some power hungry fiend like Taim was always acting like.  It's sad that Rand can't seem to find any man who can wield the power and is for sure an ally.  He needs a strong presence that is a sure ally.  He thinks he has 3 loyal ppl, but atm, they aren't real big into the story, nor are they as strong as Dashiva Taim Logain etc...

Anyways, book is heating up!



#20 Mr Ares

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Posted 23 March 2010 - 03:38 AM

AH HAH!

So Taim did order it.  I knew that sneaky power hungry little bastard would.  But the 'dark ashamen' met with moridin and demandred too?!  But both chosen acted like they didn't know what Taim said, and the ashaman thought they did...so the Asha thought Taim was darkfriend...  I doubt Taim is, just too power hungry.  

Was there a reason I missed as to why Rand didn't kill both of them w/the power.  He could have shielded them, and killed them immediately.  Sure other power users, forsaken, would have felt it if they were close...but nothing tells us they are.

It's fun reading through your previously posts...here's something I said when i was reading book6.


Shaido will end up fighting for Illian.

then someone else says

Seems a bit random. Why?

i reply with

Why is that Random, the 2 groups who want to kill Rand the most(maybe minus White Cloaks), combine?  Shaido already approached the white tower to combine forces, Sammael finds out, approaches Shaido, tricks them...etc.  I assume if I was correct you would have answered differently though.

Pretty much called it! =)

Except for the Shaido not fighting for Illian, you were very close. And I'd like to think I was a bit more memorable than just "someone else". Evidently I've not scarred you nearly enough.